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Bajaaku
2008-11-12, 08:17 PM
I understand that you can summon monsters from the lists in the PHB, but did they every expand on those to include monsters from the later books? Are you allowed to summon things not on that list? If so, what types? The spells seem very limited if you are restricted to MMI.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 08:29 PM
There are specific monsters in other books that you can choose to permanently replace something on the standard list with. For example,

An evil spellcaster who knows the summon monster VII spell
can choose to permanently remove the babau from the list
of creatures that he can summon (either with summon monster
VII or with higher level summoning spells). If he does
so, he can replace the babau with the arrow demon, adding
it to the list of creatures that he can summon with the spell.
Once the spellcaster learns higher-level summoning spells,
he can use them to summon multiple arrow demons if he
has chosen this option.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-11-12, 09:56 PM
Uh, where's that paragraph from, Biffoniacus?

The changes to the lists I've seen are generally full additions rather than replacements. For example, Monster Manual III says to add the storm elemental to the summon monster and summon nature's ally lists without any sort of exchange.

Similarly, the articles on Greyhawk deities in Dragon magazine would usually include a list of additional monsters that clerics of that deity could summon. Of course, the catch was you had to be a cleric of a specific deity. So that was more of a "let's help clerics of opposing deities look less alike" than "let's expand the summons list" type of thing.

Draken
2008-11-13, 12:31 AM
Fiendish Codex, I believe. Both give you the choice to exchange monsters in your list. I presume elementals are emrely "added" because they consider the different elementals to be overall similar. While an Arrow Demon and a Babau are two very different creatures, useable in different fashions.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-13, 01:12 AM
Uh, where's that paragraph from, Biffoniacus?

MM3, page 35, under "Summoning an Arrow Demon"

Some creatures, like the Storm Elemental, are simply added to the lists, but most monsters I've seen replace something already on the list so you don't actually get more choices.

Fizban
2008-11-13, 02:03 AM
Older creatures were usually just added on, but nowadays they recommend replacing creatures instead, since the bigger the list the more options and thus the more powerful the spell. Each monster has a shtick (melee bruiser, grappler, flyer, SLAer, etc.), so you should replace monsters with similar powered monsters with the same shtick.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-13, 03:17 AM
Further in UA you can find the guidelines to build a custom summon list.

I think using these rules you can build a summon list full of flavour (something like "demon summoner" and so..).

Fako
2008-11-13, 03:32 AM
Further in UA you can find the guidelines to build a custom summon list.

I think using these rules you can build a summon list full of flavour (something like "demon summoner" and so..).

I second using "custom/themed" lists. And since Unearthed Arcana is part of the SRD, here is a link to the page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm#)

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-11-13, 08:41 AM
MM3, page 35, under "Summoning an Arrow Demon"
Wow. Same book I referenced earlier. :smallredface:

That's what I get for skipping over new demons in my books.