Building a Paladin (4e)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would this be an appropriate place to ask how to build a particular character? I have plenty of information about building paladins in general, and was hoping to consolidate a build.

[Enlong]

We'll need more info.

What is your general goal for the character?
How do you want to play him?
Who's in your party?
Do you wanna cause lots of damage o enemies or focus on keeping allies alive?
Boxers or briefs?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I will provide more info once my first questions have been answered. I was just asking if it was appropriate to ask for a build tailored to my character's specifications, or if that was just selfish.

But to answer your questions:

- My general goal for him is to become a sort of King Arthur-like messiah figure.

- I've been playing him as a kind-hearted, but naive and sometimes dim country boy.

- My party consists of the following:

A human rogue/warlock "priest" of the Raven Queen (She's ordained as a priest, but not an actual cleric)

A human rogue (his half-sister)

A warforged fighter

A human wizard who'd like nothing more than to use her flail to beat the stupid out of my character.

- Right now our party seems to follow a philosophy of taking the enemy down before they take us down, relying more on extended rests rather than healing mid-combat.

- Boxers, I think. Not sure what kind of underwear medieval people wore.

[Enlong]

YEah. This is probably a better place then most in these forums to ask for build help.

What do you have so far? Or is your character made yet?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Meet Sarastro!

SARASTRO
Level 1 Paladin (Defender)
Medium Natural Humanoid Half-Elf
Initiative +1; Senses Insight 18; Perception 11; Special senses: Low-light
HP 28; Bloodied 14; Healing Surges 11 (7 HP)
AC 20; Fortitude 13, Reflex 12, Will 15; see also special
Speed 5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
m Bastard Sword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+5 vs. AC; 1d10+2 damage.
M Furious Smash (standard; encounter) ✦ Weapon
+5 vs. Fortitude; 2 damage, and then Sarastro chooses one ally adjacent to either him or the target. This ally applies Sarastro's Charisma modifier as a power bonus to the attack roll and damage roll on his or her next attack against the target. If the ally does not attack the target by the end of his next turn, the bonus is lost.
M Enfeebling Strike (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+7 vs. AC; 1d10+4 damage, and Sarastro gains 1 temporary hit point.
M Valiant Strike (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+5 (+1 per enemy adjacent to Sarastro) vs. AC; 1d10+2 damage.
M Fearsome Smite (standard; encounter) ✦ Fear, Weapon
+7 vs. AC; 2d10+4 damage. Until the end of Sarastro's next turn, the target takes a -1 penalty to his attack rolls.
R Radiant Delirium (standard; daily) ✦ Implement, Radiant
+4 vs. Reflex; 3d8+4 radiant damage. The target is dazed until the end of Sarastro's next turn, and takes a -2 penalty to AC (save ends). Miss: Half damage, and the target is dazed until the end of Sarastro's next turn.
Divine Challenge (minor; at-will) ✦ Radiant
See PHB pg. 91.
M Lay on Hands (minor; at-will) ✦ Healing
Sarastro spends a healing surge but regains no hit points. Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge. Sarastro must have at least one healing surge remaining to use this power.
C Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle (minor; encounter)
The target makes a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Channel Divinity: Divine Strength (minor; encounter)
Sarastro applies his Strength modifier as extra damage on his next attack this turn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Group Diplomacy
Sarastro grants allies within 10 squares of him a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
Channel Divinity
Once per encounter Sarastro can invoke divine power, which he uses to wield special powers.
Divine Challenge
Sarastro can use the Divine Challenge power to mark an enemy of his choice.
Lay on Hands
Sarastro can use the Lay on Hands power.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alignment Good (Pelor); Languages Common, Elven, Dwarven
Skills Diplomacy +11, Heal +6, Insight +8, Religion +5
Feats Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Str 14(+2) Dex 12 (+1) Wis 13 (+1)
Con 13 (+1) Int 10 (+0) Cha 18 (+4)
Equipment bastard sword, plate armor, heavy shield, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 50 ft of hempen rope, 2 sunrods, waterskin

Sarastro is a tall and noble-looking Half-Elf paladin of Pelor. As a child he was raised outside the Vale, in a small town within the World Forest called Goab. He was abandoned at a local Pelorite abbey as a babe, and grew up as a servant boy among the clergy there.

Due to his surroundings and constant exposure to the religion, Sarastro took to the worship of Pelor at an early age. He first served primarily as an altar boy, and then later in life, as a lay member. Despite his many good deeds and heroic efforts in life thus far, his proudest moment in life remains to be his twenty-first birthday: the day he passed his trials and was officially ordained as a noble paladin of Pelor--forever transforming him into a living symbol of Pelor's compassion, kindness, and mercy.

Sarastro has a messy mane of gold hair and a short beard, a brown-eyed stare that radiates warmth, a booming voice that sings of his confidence (as well as a few hymns to Pelor), a compact muscular frame, and a suit of stunning plate armor polished to a near-mirror shine (so as to better reflect Pelor’s light into the dark places of the world). Sarastro generally prefers warm colors, often wearing red and gold clothing that allow him as much comfort and mobility as possible. Unlike his prized armor, Sarastro's clothes are more for function than appearance and aren't kept so well taken care of. As a result, some of his daily outfits show clear signs of wear and tear. Sarastro also carries a shield, though he generally keeps it out of sight when not in use so as to not detract from his armor’s radiance.

Sarastro has since left his temple home to bring Pelor's light into the dark places of the world. As he adventures out into the wild, he slowly but surely makes his way towards the Vale, a place he considers to be one of the darkest in the land. However enthusiastic he in his mission or confident he is in his skills, he has no knowledge of the dark fate that surely lies for him in the shadows of the Vale.

"The sun's golden glory has vanquished the night! The false world of darkness now yields to the light!"

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh275/Ravingdork/PaladinofPelor.jpg

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If it helps any, I'm thinking of him taking the Justiciar paragon path (PHB) and the Mythic Sovereign epic destiny (Dragon 367).

[Mando Knight]

- I've been playing him as a kind-hearted, but naive and sometimes dim country boy.

- My party consists of the following:

A human rogue/warlock "priest" of the Raven Queen (She's ordained as a priest, but not an actual cleric)

A human rogue (his half-sister)

A warforged fighter

A human wizard who'd like nothing more than to use her flail to beat the stupid out of my character.


Now, here's where you look for amusing builds. I submit your new character picture:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/1/1b/FFIII-nes-knight.gif

You can go all-out Strength...

Always dump Intelligence. It does you no good.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Very funny. But note I said somewhat dim There's a difference between somewhat dim and incredibly lucky idiot. :smallwink:

I used the standard array (16, 14, 13, 13, 12, 10) when I created him, and the DM isn't allowing me to alter my stats. Only standard retraining of skills and feats.

[Colmarr]

M Furious Smash (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+2 vs. Fortitude

Shouldn't this be +5?

As an attack with the weapon keyword, you get to add your proficiency bonus.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Doesn't really matter. I'm swapping it out for a cleric power when I hit level 2.

[Colmarr]

I'm swapping it out for a cleric power when I hit level 2.

How?

EDIT: Ah! I assume Furious Smash is your Dilletante power. If so then it should be marked as Encounter, not At-will.

But in any event, which power are you swapping for? Neither Savastro's Strength nor his Wisdom are high enough IMO to be viable as attack stats.

[amanamana]

Hey, Zousha!
I've already seen that drawing on the internet... what have you done with the baby, you vile paladin!:smallamused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I didn't do a thing. RavingDork, of the Character Development boards, photoshopped it for me.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

How?

EDIT: Ah! I assume Furious Smash is your Diletente power. If so then it should be marked as Encounter, not At-will.

But in any event, which power are you swapping for? Neither Savastro's Strength nor his Wisdom are high enough IMO to be viable as attack stats.

Yes, it is my Dilletante power. And I don't know what power to swap for. Or much of anything. I can't really decide on anything, even with a guide. I'd post a link, but the WOTC site is being difficult.

[Colmarr]

Dilletante is notoriously difficult to get great use out of at the moment, because there are relatively few classes that complement each other and share an attack stat.

Charisma is unfortunately the red-headed stepchild in that regard, because there are currently only 2 Cha-based classes (Warlock and Paladin), and they don't synergise terribly well.

Of the warlock at-wills, Eyebite seems to be the favourite for dilletante and it can combine fairly well with Divine Challenge ("attack anyone else and take a -2 to hit and a ton of damage, or attack invisible me and take a -5 to hit).

You'd probably want to reflavour the power to fit it within Savastro's "fluff", but as a Paladin of a protector god, an invisibility-type power isn't completely out of place.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Doesn't Eyebite's fluff mention golden, glowing eyes? What if instead of dark warlock powers, it's THE BLINDING LIGHT OF THE SUN? :smallcool:

[Enlong]

You know, that raises an interesting thought. You always read about how good and awesome Light is, and how Dark is so evil and harmful. But think about this: in real life, light comes from the Sun, a gigantic BALL OF FIRE that shoots rays that not only illuminate us, but can bake the moisture out of our bodies, cause cancer, and generally kill us from millions of miles away. Through a filter. Meanwhile, shade is the only natural protection against this kind of stuff. Now, why is darkness supposed to be bad again? This will be on the test.

[amanamana]

I didn't do a thing. RavingDork, of the Character Development boards, photoshopped it for me.

It was so funny... as I was scrolling down, I expected to see a baby on his arms, but found that huge gold glowing face... I was shocked for a moment.:smalltongue:

[LurkerInPlayground]

You know, that raises an interesting thought. You always read about how good and awesome Light is, and how Dark is so evil and harmful. But think about this: in real life, light comes from the Sun, a gigantic BALL OF FIRE that shoots rays that not only illuminate us, but can bake the moisture out of our bodies, cause cancer, and generally kill us from millions of miles away. Through a filter. Meanwhile, shade is the only natural protection against this kind of stuff. Now, why is darkness supposed to be bad again? This will be on the test.Humans are born with an innate fear of things they don't understand.

Humans can't see in the dark very well.

Hence, it's very sensible to fear mucking around in the dark when you can do things like sleep.

Some people will like to argue that this fear serves is a product of natural selection.

[Mando Knight]

Doesn't Eyebite's fluff mention golden, glowing eyes? What if instead of dark warlock powers, it's THE BLINDING LIGHT OF THE SUN? :smallcool:

The PHB suggests that your character's attacks can have different fluff from the standard... like having howling ghosts attack for a Magic Missile, or your cleric powers coming out of your eyes.

[Tengu_temp]

Do you have Bolstering Strike, or Enfeebling Strike? You wrote Enfeebling, but the stats you presented are for Bolstering.

In either case, swap Valiant Strike for the one from those two you don't have ASAP. You should concentrate on charisma-based powers instead of spreading yourself too thin between charisma and strength. What's the point of an attack that deals less damage and usually has smaller hit bonus, when you can have an attack that deals more damage, usually has larger hit bonus, and on top of that has another effect?

Your constitution should be 15, not 13 - half-elves get a +2 bonus. Just a nitpick, but the standard array is 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10.

Nice picture.

[Charity]

Do you have Bolstering Strike, or Enfeebling Strike? You wrote Enfeebling, but the stats you presented are for Bolstering.

In either case, swap Valiant Strike for the one from those two you don't have ASAP. You should concentrate on charisma-based powers instead of spreading yourself too thin between charisma and strength.

This

Go Charisma, although I assume he's gone for having enough STR to get Heavy blade opp in Paragon.

[Tengu_temp]

That's a good choice, but requires improving dexterity & charisma at levels 4 and 8, while a defensive paladin would usually be better off with charisma & wisdom.

Even without going for it, strength is not entirely useless for cha-based paladins - for carrying capacity, and opportunity attacks. But it's not a good idea to get powers basing on it (though Furious Smash is rather good, and targets fortitude instead of AC, so it will hit often even though it's based on strength - I'd swap it after Valiant Strike).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I was thinking of swapping for Holy Strike, and then spamming radiant powers.

And I think I know why I wrote the array down wrong. I forgot that half-elves get a bonus to CON as well. Would Justiciar be a good choice? Or perhaps I should use Morninglord from the FRPG (My DM's allowed its use, despite the fact that we aren't playing FR)?

[ColdSepp]

Morning Lord is very good, just get a Sun Blade (L4) or Brilliant Energy (L25) weapon. These make all your attacks with the weapon keyword into radiant, and the Morning Lord synergies very well with that.

Have the rest of your party use Radiant powers as well, if possible.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What about just a plain old Radiant weapon? And I thought Brilliant Energy Weapons couldn't hurt non-living things, like undead or constructs.

[Tengu_temp]

I was thinking of swapping for Holy Strike, and then spamming radiant powers.


Bad idea - with charisma 4 points above strength it be weaker in everything, apart from being radiant, from charisma-based powers. Just get a Sun Blade.

And yes, half-elves get +2 to charisma and constitution.


What about just a plain old Radiant weapon? And I thought Brilliant Energy Weapons couldn't hurt non-living things, like undead or constructs.

Radiant Weapon is level 15+, Sun Blade is level 4+ (so, if you have a nice DM, you should be able to get one even at first level). Brilliant Energy Weapon can hurt all kinds of enemies in 4e.

[ColdSepp]

Hmm. I might have missed the Radiant Weapon. Also, one sucky note is that a Holy Avenger does not add Radiant keyword to your attacks. :smallfurious:

It adds 1d10 Radiant if you hit with a Radiant Power, but thats it. Morning Lord specifically requires it have the Radiant Keyword.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Bad idea - with charisma 4 points above strength it be weaker in everything, apart from being radiant, from charisma-based powers. Just get a Sun Blade.

And yes, half-elves get +2 to charisma and constitution.

Radiant Weapon is level 15+, Sun Blade is level 4+ (so, if you have a nice DM, you should be able to get one even at first level). Brilliant Energy Weapon can hurt all kinds of enemies in 4e.

Well I was originally planning on pumping Strength and Dexterity so I could afford Heavy Blade Mastery at higher levels, and figured that Holy Strike'd get a significant boost as I raised those attributes.

And I wonder why they have three weapons that basically do the same thing. Seems a little redundant.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So...no suggestions for a levelling plan?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

A thought? Anyone? :smallfrown:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well... I have a neat Paladin Commander build that fits the concept, but you need a higher STR to make it reasonable. And getting a Cleric Dilettante power makes no sense with a STR 14 and WIS 13... I guess you should go for Eyebite.

Here's a good guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1054956) to Paladin builds.

Read it over. If you still have questions, please ask.

EDIT:
Also - this is a message board, not a live chat. Wait at least 6 hours before asking for more responses. You're not being ignored, but people may have other things they have to do. You'll get a response eventually, trust me :smallbiggrin:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's the guide I was going to link this thread too. I subscribed to it months ago. The problem is that I'm so mind-boggled by all the choices, and some say that they work well with particular builds. I've found some good paladin builds, but they're all dragonborn. I'm starting to wonder if I built my character wrong. :smallfrown:

EDIT: I know to wait for responses. I just get nervous when the thread is pushed downwards, where it won't get as much attention.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Just pick the powers which are Sky Blue for CHA Paladins. You'll be fine.

Feats don't really matter. Pick up Blade Opportunist at 2, Human Perseverance at 4, Toughness at 6, Durable at 8, and Healing Hands at 10.

Blade Opportunist will help fix your OAs

Human Perseverance is always good

Toughness will make up for your CON, though Action Surge is just as good

Durable is always nice.

Healing Hands is only going to be worthwhile once you get WIS 14, so take it at 10.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades)?

[Hzurr]

I've found some good paladin builds, but they're all dragonborn. I'm starting to wonder if I built my character wrong. :smallfrown:


First off, there's no "wrong" build. There are some that are more effective in certain situations, or at doing certain things, but nothing that you've posted so far indicates that your character will be ineffective. Just like it was possible to have fun wizards in 3.5E who weren't "Batman" wizards, it's just as possible to have a fun paladin who isn't a specific dragonborn based build.

If someone tells you you're doing it wrong, then punch them in the face. (Note: Do not apply this advice to your day-to-day life in things other than d&d characters. It will not end well).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What about with these?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/0o0YoursTruly0o0/EMPIREOFNETHERIL.jpg?t=1226517865

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/0o0YoursTruly0o0/KARA-TURSAMURAI.jpg?t=1226517892

According to these the image portrayed is wrong. Who's to say I'm not doing something similar with my half-elf paladin?

[ColdSepp]

Well, you have 18 CHA and 14 STR, so you really should take CHA based powers. 4E has a lot less ways of boosting Attack Bonuses then 3E, so you need your highest stat in your primary attack mod.

Start with 13 STR and 13 DEX so you can have Heavy Blade Oppertunity at 21, if you are worried about OAs.

Fighter Multiclass can get you some good stances, but with the Standard Array, you are really hurting as a Paladin. They need the most 'high' stats of any core class.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay so the feats I should go for are:

Blade Opportunist
Human Perserverence
Toughness
Durable
Healing Hands

And go for the CHA based powers reccomended in the guide?

[Oracle_Hunter]

And Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades)?

Weapon Focus is super-meh for CHA Paladins, because most of the CHA abilities are Implement, not Weapon, powers. Astral Fire might be a good choice if you go a Radiant PP, but avoid it in Heroic.

EDIT:
Yeah, take the sky-blue CHA Paladin powers. You can't go wrong.

[ColdSepp]

No to Healing Hands. Remember, your Lay on Hands is WIS MOD/day, which is 1/day for you. So, it's not a good feat choice.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No to Healing Hands. Remember, your Lay on Hands is WIS MOD/day, which is 1/day for you. So, it's not a good feat choice.

He's taking it at 10. At 11, his WIS goes to 14. With his high CHA, it's a good choice for the 10th level feat.

[ColdSepp]

Yeah, CHA gets lots of good powers. Might want to go with more Human Racial feats, they are generally solid.

Weapon Focus adds to damage, not to hit, so not really worth it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So you're reccomending I pump my WIS and CHA any chance I get?

[ColdSepp]

CHA is all your attacks, so yes. WIS is less important, since all it really helps with is Lay on Hands, and few powers (as bonus damage, or spaces pushed).

If you want him to be a secondary healer, then WIS is good. But it doesn't synergies as well, since CHA does all the same things (Saves and so on)

[Oracle_Hunter]

So you're reccomending I pump my WIS and CHA any chance I get?

Not with those stats :smallyuk:

If you want HBO by Paragon, you need to put both spare +1 into DEX, and one +1 should always go into your primary stat (CHA).

WIS is very important to a Paladin, but Paladins are the most MAD of the 4E classes, so you're going to have to make some choices. Your build is fine with a low WIS, it just means that Lay on Hands is less useful to you until Paragon.

[ColdSepp]

Standard Array. It hurts the Paladin bad.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Then where does the 14 WIS come from if I'm not putting anything into it? And won't I need extra STR to get HBO and later HBM?

[ColdSepp]

At levels 11 and 21, all your stats get +1

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Ah. Why 14 though? My WIS is at 10, isn't it?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah. Why 14 though? My WIS is at 10, isn't it?

You have your INT at 10 and WIS at 13 on the first page. If your scores are not like that, make them so.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Serves me right for not paying attention. Yeah, those are correct.

Is the standard array really that bad?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Serves me right for not paying attention. Yeah, those are correct.

Is the standard array really that bad?

Not at all. It works for all characters, but the Paladin, being more MAD than others, must choose to specialize for great justice (either STR or CHA) or remain generalist for slightly less effect.

I find it sufficient for any number of possible builds, but some people feel inadequate without at least one 18 :smalltongue:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm actually grateful that you no longer need at least 1 18. I used to try and fudge dice rolls for ability scores in 3.5 to get at least one 18 I could plug into INT and get as many skill points as my class would allow.

That I don't need an 18 to be useful is quite a relief. I think I may want to move more towards healing though. I'm the closest thing the party has to a Leader-type. Most of the party are Strikers with one other Defender and a Controller.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm actually grateful that you no longer need at least 1 18. I used to try and fudge dice rolls for ability scores in 3.5 to get at least one 18 I could plug into INT and get as many skill points as my class would allow.

That I don't need an 18 to be useful is quite a relief. I think I may want to move more towards healing though. I'm the closest thing the party has to a Leader-type. Most of the party are Strikers with one other Defender and a Controller.

OK. I'm going to offer this build then: it's my Paladin Commander.

Concept: The idea is to make a CHA Paladin that MC Warlord to get a better 2nd level Utility and to gain access to the Knight Commander PP. I use the Half-Elf to gain access to Ferocious Strike (which is a great Encounter Power, as it gives +CHA to damage and hit) and for Group Insight (+1 Initiative!). Knight Commander has excellent bonuses (+2 to hit for all adjacent allies and the AP bonus is pretty nice) and has nice powers in general.

Role: A frontline Defender who works well with other melee types.

Suggested Stats
STR 16 (enough for most STR attacks)
DEX 12
CON 13 (11 + 2)
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 16 (14+2, fine to start with)

Improve CHA & DEX at 4 & 8. You need DEX for HBO and Shield Specialization in Paragon, and WIS will improve enough at 11.

Suggested Feats
(1) Bastard Sword (good for those STR attacks)
(2) Group Insight (+1 Initiative for everyone is nice)
(4) Human Perseverance
(6) MC Warlord (to set up...)
(8) MC Utility (swap your 2nd level Utility for anything. I like "Shake It Off")
(10) (anything) (plan to retrain it at 11 for HBO)
(11) Shield Specialization (+1 to AC & Reflex? Yes please!)

Suggested Powers
(1) Holy Strike, Bolstering Strike, Piercing Strike, Radiant Delirum, Furious Smash


Holy Strike gives you instant access to Radiant attacks when fighting undead - nice at low levels, when you might not have a Radiant Sword - and Bolstering Strike is just good. Piercing Strike makes you a very sticky forward fighter, and Radiant Delirium is excellent.

(2) (whatever, they're all pretty lame)

When you MC Utility, "Shake It Off" allows you to have someone make a Saving Throw at +CHA as an Encounter Power. With a +3/+4 CHA, that is almost as good as just removing the effect :smallbiggrin:

(3) Righteous Smite

Unless you have a bunch of Warlocks, everyone likes Temp HP. Since it's an Encounter Power, you don't want to take Invigorating Strike and expect your entire party to be bloodied every Encounter.

(5) Sign of Vulnerability

Turn your Holy Strike into a +5 damage attack? Yes please!

(6) Wrath of the Gods

Do this before a tough fight, and give everyone +CHA to damage for the Encounter. Nice.

(7) Thunder Smite

Knocks your target prone (for free CA!) and crit on a 19-20? Nice!

(9) Radiant Pulse

Not great, but for a BBEG who has sticky minions, this can nuke them good.

(10) Cleansing Spirit

More Save granting; I like Encounter powers, and by now, you're going to want to give a lot of Saving Throws.

So that's an idea. I dunno how wed you are to your build, but if you want a Charismatic Holy Leader, I think it's pretty good.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Actually I was originally had a paladin/warlord in mind when I first concieved him. Would my stats be able to handle something like this?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Actually I was originally had a paladin/warlord in mind when I first concieved him. Would my stats be able to handle something like this?

No, your STR is too low. I wouldn't feel good about running the Paladin Commander without at least a 16 STR, particularly since I mix CHA & STR Paladin powers in the Build. It certainly won't work for the Knight Commander attacks.

I suppose you can try though - it's just +1, right? I wouldn't though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

STR is something I plan on boosting though.

[Oracle_Hunter]

STR is something I plan on boosting though.

Yeah, but when?

I suppose you could go:
(4) +STR, +DEX
(8) +STR, +DEX

but that means that Furious Smash and all other STR attacks are basically useless until level 8. If you're playing pre-leveled, go right ahead. Otherwise start with that STR 16 and boost CHA later.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

We've already started though. It's an online play-by-post.

[Tengu_temp]

Well I was originally planning on pumping Strength and Dexterity so I could afford Heavy Blade Mastery at higher levels, and figured that Holy Strike'd get a significant boost as I raised those attributes.


How to get Heavy Blade Mastery ASAP with your stats, while boosting charisma whenever possible:

Upgrade these ability scores at these levels:
4. +1 dex & cha
8. +1 dex & str
11. +1 all
At level 11, you have 16 str and 15 dex and can take Heavy Blade Opportunity.
14. +1 str & cha
18. +1 str & dex
21. +1 all, take Demigod or Chosen epic destiny and upgrade cha and str by 2
At level 21, you have 21 str and 17 dex and can take Heavy Blade Mastery. If you want to take it at level 24 instead, you can boost cha intead of str at level 8.

Your strength-based powers will always lag behind charisma-based ones, and you'll use them much less often, if at all. Even if you boost strength.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would this be effective with Oracle Hunter's build?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Would this be effective with Oracle Hunter's build?

Yes, it just means that it'll take longer for you to get up to speed. Tengu's path is the right way to go, if you are already playing (and want to use my Build).

EDIT: Just a point to keep in mind - once you gain access to Paragon Feats, you can retrain Heroic ones into Paragon ones. It's there by RAW, and this allows you to have both HBO & Shield Spec at level 11.

It's very nice.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Time is of little concern to me. I just want to have a plan in mind. I've been doing moderately well at the moment, and none of us have even levelled up yet.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm not sure how to organize this into a single levelling guide.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm not sure how to organize this into a single levelling guide.

:smallconfused: You can just cut and paste my build, if that's what you're looking for.

I don't think anything on this thread is superior to the "Facestabbing" Guide, to be honest.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you for all your help thus far.

If it's not too much trouble, there was another build I was wondering about that I plan on running by my brother to see if he'll give FR a try.

Nothing too specific. He definately wouldn't want to be a dragonborn (he thinks they don't belong in D&D), and he expressed interest in playing a paladin who worshiped Tempus, and took the Purple Dragon Knight paragon path.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Good luck with that. I don't have the FR books, so I don't have much to say about it.

But if I remember correctly, Tempus is a very smashy-type God, so I'd imagine a Polearm Paladin build might be good (or a 2H Paladin). Either of those work well as Dwarves (Halberd & Maul, respectively) and are amenable to MC Fighter. Half-Elves always make good Paladins (sadly, humans do not), though he can go Tiefling (which he might object to) for a CHA & Fire Paladin, or even Elven (A Heavy Blade, Sword & Board Paladin with good WIS).

Anyhoo, I guess I'll check out here. Good luck with that :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thanks, I'm gonna need it. And he hates tieflings almost as much as he hates dragonborn. He's ticked off that the gnome got punted out so he can't play those badass gnome rogues he loves so much.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Thanks, I'm gonna need it. And he hates tieflings almost as much as he hates dragonborn. He's ticked off that the gnome got punted out so he can't play those badass gnome rogues he loves so much.

Well... he could play a Halfling Paladin. They're pretty goofy (a Halfling in full plate?!) but extremely effective (bonus to CHA and DEX - not bad). The basic build is a CHA Sword & Board Paladin with a Scimitar for his weapon. Since there's none of this nonsense about "small weapons" in 4E, he'll be happy to be doing full damage with the Scimitar too.

MC Fighter isn't such a good idea for Halfling Paladins (no Bastard Swords :smallfrown:) but they're tanky little fellows. Well, play with that one for a bit :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

He doesn't like halflings. He likes gnomes. And even if gnomes were in 4e he wouldn't play one as a paladin. He thinks they make much cooler rogues.

Then again, I haven't spoken with him in over a month (we go to college in different states), so I don't know for sure.

[FoE]

My recommendation is that you start striking your brother on the head until he stops thinking that lame-ass gnomes are cool. :smalltongue:

But why can't he play a gnome? He'll be a monster, but it's allowed as long as he gets permission from the DM.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's the principle of the thing, in his opinion. By relegating the gnome to "monster" it indicates that the gnome's not cool enough to hang with the "playa races" yo!

And you'd change your tune if you saw what he can do with a gnome. He takes gnomes and makes them BAD...ASS!

[KKL]

Purple Dragon Knight paragon path.

Blarg, the PDK is vastly...unimpressive.

[FoE]

And you'd change your tune if you saw what he can do with a gnome. He takes gnomes and makes them BAD...ASS!

That gnome is one badass muthaf—

No, I'm sorry, I can't do it. Gnomes are just too lame. I don't care if he makes gnomes that ride on the backs of ancient red dragons into battle, shoots lazers from their eyes and dual-wield the Axe of the Dwarven Lords and Sword of Truth at the same friggin' time; I would still be underwhelmed.

"GNOMES ARE JUST SHORT DWARVES, LOSER!" shouts the lone demon on the field, as the dragon and its rider pass by overhead.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Eh, I don't know how he does it either. I'm perfer playing tall, handsome knights in blindingly white armor myself.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Blarg, the PDK is vastly...unimpressive.

Well, there isn't any paragon path for Tempurans.

[Charity]

Justiciar is good for a Cha based paladin, heck even Champion of Order is better than PDK the encounter power is all that and a bag of chips even with a lowish Str.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would Champion of Order work flavorwise for a Tempuran? In 3.5 Tempus was Chaotic Neutral.

[Charity]

I can't remember his alignment, it may be unaligned, but it certainly fits flavourwise if not titlewise, so just call yourself a champion of battle or whatever.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In 4e Tempus is Unaligned. In 3.5e he was Chaotic Neutral.

[Oracle_Hunter]

In 4e Tempus is Unaligned. In 3.5e he was Chaotic Neutral.

Interestingly enough, neither "Champion of Order" nor "Justiciar" have alignment restrictions :smalltongue:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Order doesn't seem like something that's championed by the wild, brutal Tempurans.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Order doesn't seem like something that's championed by the wild, brutal Tempurans.

Yeah, but none of the powers, or really anything else, suggests "Order" in the PP. Look it over - it's a very warlike PP.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

My DM's agreed to convert the Chosen of Amaunator ED to the Chosen of Pelor. Instead of being a King-Arthur figure I'm gonna try and be more like a messiah.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Completely unrelated to the previous stuff, but I wonder if anyone's tried a paladin build with Mounted Combat as one of the feats. I mean, strictly speaking mounts have never been that useful in dungeons, and now are completely optional for paladins. Has anyone made one that fights on horse back?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So are mounts completely useless then?

[Tengu_temp]

I'd give you some advice, but away from books at the moment. Gimme time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sorry! :smallfrown:

[The Glyphstone]

Completely unrelated to the previous stuff, but I wonder if anyone's tried a paladin build with Mounted Combat as one of the feats. I mean, strictly speaking mounts have never been that useful in dungeons, and now are completely optional for paladins. Has anyone made one that fights on horse back?

Most effective mounted combatants are gnomes, halflings, or other Small races, because they ride Medium mounts and are thus effective anywhere a normal Medium character is. Halfling Paladin on a Warpony, for example.

[Hal]

Just a recommendation, I might see if you can take the Armor of Bahamut (Channel Divinity) feat. Yes, you have to worship Bahamut, but see if your DM won't let you refluff it to work for you. If you're not regularly turning undead, your CD goes mostly unused, and you wouldn't believe how useful it is to be able to nullify a critical hit against you or your allies.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, according to the DM, there are these tunnels all under the land we're in that are infested with undead, with scattered groups of warforged living further underground. The warforged member of our party was lucky to get to the surface. Most warforged that try are overwhelmed by the hordes of undead.

That said, it appears our enemies may be shadar-kai, or evil fey of some sort.

We're fighting goblins at the moment. Goblins with fire-breathing bugs! :smalleek:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Attention everyone! This is a BUMP!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hey, Oracle Hunter, could I ask you something?

[FoE]

Try sending him a PM, kid. He'll notice it sooner.


We're fighting goblins at the moment. Goblins with fire-breathing bugs! :smalleek:

Ah yes. The goblin+fire beetle combination. OH himself has used those. They're going to be the bane of first-level characters for years to come.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sorry!:smalleek:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And another bump.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you all for your help thus far. I'm going to work on creating a guide to the build I've decided on based on the information I have here. I'll be using Lord_Ventnor's style that he uses on the WOTC boards, giving a brief description of what I'm taking at each level and a snapshot of the whole build at each the beginning of each tier and one at the very end.

Thank you all for your help. :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Back again. I was thinking lately about a paladin/swordmage combo for later.

According to the The Paladin's Handbook: Facestabbing in the name of thy God, paladin/swordmage isn't a very optimal multiclass, but swordmage/paladin is.

Also, how effective would a spellscarred paladin be? Probably have to worship Corellon for the Star of Corellon holy symbol, which functions as an implement for both arcane and divine powers.

Thoughts?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No thoughts?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is a spellscarred paladin a complete waste of time then?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Attention everyone, this is another bump.

[FoE]

Spellscarred paladin? Is that a paragon path?

(I don't have my books in front of me, and I never read the section on paladins in-depth. I tend to prefer ... darker classes.)

[Artanis]

It's from Forgotten Realms. Spellscars are something very closely tied to the setting (sorta like Dragonshards are tied to Eberron), and there's a PP linked to having a spellscar. I'll come back in a minute with some more specifics.


Edit: More details

A spellscar isn't particularly special mechanics-wise. If your DM lets you, you basically say, "oh yeah, and my character has a spellscar" when creating it, and you get a couple of little passive things related to the Spellplague. The big thing about having a spellscar is that it lets you "multiclass" into a pseudo-class of sorts, taking spellscar-related powers instead of a real class's powers. It also allows you to take one of the PPs in the FR book.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And that's what I'm wondering from a mechanical standpoint. Would it be worth it to take the "Student of the Plague" multiclass feat and eventual the Spellscarred Savant PP too as a paladin? The biggest worry I have is that spellscar powers are arcane, which means the only people who can use them without issue are wizards, warlocks and swordmages. I don't know how implements work with the whole spellscar thing, but at the moment, it looks like the only way it'd work is for the paladin to worship Corellon, to allow use of the Star of Corellon holy symbol from Adventurer's Vault, which behaves as an implement for both arcane and divine powers.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Using the information provided, I've created a basic plan for how I'm building my original character, Sarastro. It's not quite complete yet as I have some powers to fill in in the paragon levels, and what I have so far doesn't extend to epic tier. Still, I think this'll be a solid build. Thank you all.:smallsmile:

Character Information
Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin (Multiclass: Warlord).
Paragon Path: Knight Commander.
Epic Destiny: Demigod.

Starting Ability Scores:
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 18.

Ability Score Boosts:
4 - +1 Dex, +1 Cha
8 - +1 Dex, +1 Str
11 - +1 to all
14 - +1 Str, +1 Cha
18 - +1 Str, +1 Dex
21 - +1 to all (Demigod: +2 Str, +2 Cha)
24 - (Unsure at the moment)
28 - (Unsure at the moment)

Final Ability Scores (by level 21):
Str 21, Con 15, Dex 17, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 24.

Trained Skills:
Diplomacy, Endurance (from Student of Battle), Heal, Insight, Religion

Gear:
Bastard Sword, Heavy Shield, Plate Armor

Power Selection
1, At-Will: Holy Strike, Bolstering Strike.
1, Encounter: Piercing Stirke, Furious Smash (from Dilletante).
1, Daily: Radiant Delirium.
2, Utility: Astral Speech (replaced with Shake It Off after multiclassing).
3, Encounter: Righteous Smite.
5, Daily: Sign of Vulnerability.
6, Utility: Wrath of the Gods.
7, Encounter: Thunder Smite.
9, Daily: Radiant Pulse.
10, Utility: Cleansing Spirit.
11, Encounter: Slash and Press.
12, Utility: Break Their Nerve.
13, Encounter: Renewing Strike (replaces Piercing Strike).
15, Daily: True Nemesis (replaces Radiant Pulse).
16, Utility: Death Ward.
17, Encounter: Hand of the Gods (replaces Thunder Smite).
19, Daily: Righteous Inferno (replaces Radiant Delirium).
20, Daily: Control the Field.
22, Utility:.
23, Encounter:.
25, Daily:.
26, Utility: Divine Regeneration.
27, Encounter:.
29, Daily:.


Feat Selection
1. Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2. Group Insight
4. Human Perseverance
6. Student of Battle (Endurance)
8. Acolyte Power
10. Astral Fire (retrained for Heavy Blade Opportunity at 11)
11. Shield Specialization
12. Action Recovery
14. Danger Sense
16. Point Blank Shot
18. Improved Initiative
20. Weapon Focus (heavy blades)
21. Heavy Blade Mastery
22.
24.
26.
28.
30.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Corrected several feat and power names.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've gotten some feedback on the build from the WOTC boards. They've taken exception with some of the feats, like Group Insight, Human Perseverance and Action Recovery.

I've also recieved a reccomendation to drop the bastard sword in favor of a Crusader's Weapon, which can only be a hammer or a mace.

[Tengu_temp]

If you don't plan on using implement-based powers, as opposed to weapon-based ones, Crusader's Weapon isn't that hot. Since you do have quite a lot in your build, however, I'd say it's worthwhile - it lets you deal radiant damage AND counts as an implement as well as a weapon.
Note that Crusader's Weapon is level 9+, so the minimal level you can get your hands on one is 5, if your DM is very nice to you.

As for feats - Group Insight is rather crappy, I'd suggest replacing it with something else, even Toughness or Weapon Focus - or, even better, Action Surge, which is a great way to ensure your encounter/daily power will have a very good chance to hit, and has good synergy with Action Recovery. The rest looks okay.

Still need opinions/advice on mounts?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Eh, that was more of a side question. Oracle Hunter put Group Insight in there for a reason though, namely the initiative bonus it grants to everyone around you.

[Lord_Ventnor]

What God do you worship. Because at later levels, you could grab a Blade of Bahamut if you worship him and really want to use swords.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

My character worships Pelor.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Eh, that was more of a side question. Oracle Hunter put Group Insight in there for a reason though, namely the initiative bonus it grants to everyone around you.

Specifically, because Zousha wanted a more "Leader-y" character. Yeah, it's not a good feat, but I figured full optimization wasn't that important :smalltongue:

[Asbestos]

I'd suggest some of the feats from Martial Power (since you've multiclassed into Warlord and you meet the other prereqs for all these feats as well)

Phalanx Warrior (paragon) grants an AC bonus to adjacent allies when you have a shield.

Avenging Spirit (paragon) will let you gain an action point when an ally is reduced to 0hp.

Impetuous Charger (paragon) lets your allies gain combat advantage against an enemy you charge.

Martial Freedom (heroic) gives a great bonus to saving throws against the immobilized and slowed conditions. Combined with your humanness you should make saves against those conditions almost all the time with this feat.

Martial Resolve (epic) lets you make saving throws against a bunch of conditions at the start of your turn.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What about feats such as Font of Radiance or Triumphant Attack? Just out of curiosity.

[Asbestos]

I'm generally wary of things that only set off on a crit. But, I'd say that Font of Radiance is the better feat of those two.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm generally wary of things that only set off on a crit. But, I'd say that Font of Radiance is the better feat of those two.

Heh. I stopped being wary about such powers once our party's cleric picked Divine Oracle for his PP. :smallbiggrin:

[Asbestos]

Heh. I stopped being wary about such powers once our party's cleric picked Divine Oracle for his PP. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, that might do it... my party is cleric free.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As is mine, otherwise I wouldn't be multiclassing into Warlord in the first place.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is Martial Power a good investment for building this character? I'm debating whether to buy that now or wait and buy Manual of the Planes when it's out.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Never mind, I just bought Martial Power tonight. So...what kinds of feats or powers can I use from Martial Power to augment my build?

[Asbestos]

Never mind, I just bought Martial Power tonight. So...what kinds of feats or powers can I use from Martial Power to augment my build?

Check any feats that are for Warlords or 'any martial character' since you meet those pre-reqs by having multiclassed into Warlord. I believe I pointed out a number of good ones earlier.

If you have a rogue in your party Impetuous Charger might make them fall in love with you.

Rogue:"Oh noes! I need combat advantage to get Sneak Attack!"
Paladin/Warlord:"Never fear, Paladin is here!" *charge*
Rogue:*swoon*... *shank*

Anyway, aside from my goofy idiocy, or idiotic goofyness, awesome avatar upgrade! I got to get someone to take me beyond "Blue Knight Guy".