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Skjaldbakka
2008-11-13, 12:56 AM
Is a low dex melee type viable in 4e? I wanting to play a fightery type who is the big bruiser archetype. Was thinking of going with spiked gauntlets as weapon of choice.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-11-13, 01:14 AM
If you're just talking about melee characters who don't rely on dexterity, Paladins, Hammer/Axe fighters, Barbarians (to an extent), TWF Rangers (to an extent), and Swordmages come to mind.

In terms of effective spiked gauntlet users who are in that group, my best guess would be TWF rangers, who (I believe) don't rely on the weapon damage as, say, a barbarian does.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-13, 01:15 AM
In 4e, it seems almost default. However, spiked gauntlets would be... unusual. Trying to get them treated like a mace or similar might be a good choice, if flavor revision is OK.

Hammer, Mace, and axe tend to be the "big brute smash" archetypes, hammer likely being the best of those (Hammer rhythm, status inflicting powers). Deadly axe is nice, but chancey, whereas hammer is very consistient.

For such a build you want high STR and CON, which leaves you very vulnerable to most defenses. A shield might be a good investment, but it reduces your damage. Dwarves and Dragonborn, as usual, are good choices. MM races, like Warforged, are also pretty good.

Oh, right, not fighter specific. Duuuh. Bruiser feels more like fighter to me, which is why I assumed it. Ranger can be made low-dex, though it limits their flexibility, and forces them to use heavier armor.

Edge of Dreams
2008-11-13, 01:28 AM
The only downsides to low dex are low reflex defense and AC, but that's only if your int is also low and you're not using heavy armor and/or shield.

Best melee builds for low dex (in my opinion):
Fighter or Paladin with heavy armor and shield
Melee twf Ranger who takes armor feats to get heavy armor
Swordmage with high Int score (they're an int based class).

Spiked Gauntlet is not a great weapon mechanically (low weapon die, only +2 proficiency bonus), but it can be made to work. As a fighter or paladin, your main focus would likely be on maxing out AC and tanking for the party, so your damage output isn't such a big deal.

My best recommendation is Fighter with a shield. Or, wait for the TWF fighter build that is coming out in Martial Power and use that with a gauntlet on each hand.

KKL
2008-11-13, 01:51 AM
Low Dex Melee?

Str/Wis Ranger/Fighter/Pit Fighters come to mind instantly. Just pick up Weapon prof (Bastard Sword), drag two of them along, and get Scale. In Heroic you won' actually be all that hot, but once Pit Fighter's Wis to damage pops up, holy crap you'll be dealing damage out the arse. Dunno how it compares to the standard Stormwarden build, but I do know that the Pit Ranger's damage is limited to hits only , whereas the Stormwarden deals consistant damage with Blade Storm, Twin Blade Storm, and Scimitar Dance. At least with the Pit Fighter you have an option for holy AC reductions Batman.

Also, Maul Fighters and Barbarians. Off the top of my head.

Mauril Everleaf
2008-11-13, 04:25 AM
My current melee paladin has a Dex of 8 and he does quite well. With magical plate and a magical heavy shield, his Reflex defense is just fine too. It's actually higher than his Fortitude. He can't make Dex based checks to save his life, but he doesn't have to. The Warlord is always tossing heals at the other characters and struggling to hold his own in combat, and my Hobgoblin just trucks along doing just fine. So yeah, low Dex is not a problem, especially for a Defender.

exodus_dragon
2008-11-13, 04:37 AM
The only downsides to low dex are low reflex defense and AC, but that's only if your int is also low and you're not using heavy armor and/or shield.


Dex doesnt directly affect your Reflex.....reflex is based off Int or Dex which ever is higher. So a low dex fighter can have a decent int and still be well off for reflex defense. Dex only applies to ac if you wear light armor or no armor. and applies to you skills as well as you initiative.


If your wanting to make that fighter with the spiked gauntlets then dex isnt a required stat bonus. especially if your wearing anything above light. but if you decide to wear light armor or none and be a brawler type build then yes dex or high int would be needed. as for the gauntlets i didnt know they had them in 4ed at least i didnt see any...course im the DM so i dont mess in the weapons section too often unless im dishing out magic items... but to me they sound like a mace type weapon. and would be treated as such in the case of powers that require a mase to be used. and possibly a hammer type as well. being spiked might make them axe type.

KKL
2008-11-13, 04:42 AM
as for the gauntlets i didnt know they had them in 4ed at least i didnt see any

Adventurer's Vault.

Also, Spiked Gauntlets are, for now, bad weapon choices because there is zero feat support for them.

Hzurr
2008-11-13, 01:00 PM
Dex doesnt directly affect your Reflex.....reflex is based off Int or Dex which ever is higher. So a low dex fighter can have a decent int and still be well off for reflex defense. Dex only applies to ac if you wear light armor or no armor. and applies to you skills as well as you initiative.


If your wanting to make that fighter with the spiked gauntlets then dex isnt a required stat bonus. especially if your wearing anything above light. but if you decide to wear light armor or none and be a brawler type build then yes dex or high int would be needed. as for the gauntlets i didnt know they had them in 4ed at least i didnt see any...course im the DM so i dont mess in the weapons section too often unless im dishing out magic items... but to me they sound like a mace type weapon. and would be treated as such in the case of powers that require a mase to be used. and possibly a hammer type as well. being spiked might make them axe type.

Hmm...there's some thing missing from this post. Hmm...what could it be? Oh, I know! It's punctuation, capitalization, "you're" instead of "your", apostrophes, and complete sentences. That's what's missing!

...


Aside from that, it's pretty accurate advice, but remember that optimization is always secondary to having fun, and if you're going to have fun as a guy with spiked gauntlets, go for it!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-13, 02:09 PM
A few facts about DEX
- DEX no longer is added to your AC if you are wearing Heavy Armor.

- DEX or INT determines your Reflex Class, so you can have a low DEX and make up for it with INT. Or you can use a Shield to get some more points in Reflex. In any case, it's only one Defense Class out of four.

- DEX is tied to Initiative. But, you can take Improved Initiative for a +4 (DEX 18 equivalent) if you want it.

- DEX is helpful for feats tied to Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Shields, Spears, Flails, and Polearms. If you use Axes, Maces, or Hammers then you don't need to worry about DEX.

I think that covers everything. So yes, it is extremely easy to make a low-DEX Fighter, Warlord, STR Cleric or Paladin. Low-DEX Rangers are possible (with Heavy Armor Proficiencies) too. The low-DEX Rogue is still not feasible, obviously.

As for Spiked Gauntlets... well, you're not going to do much damage, but if you really want them, go for it. Unless it's in AV, you'll be using a +0 Proficiency bonus, but then again you're talking about punching out Dracula, so it makes perfect sense. :smalltongue:

MammonAzrael
2008-11-13, 04:13 PM
Others have covered the no DEX fighter better than I could, so I'm leaving that be.

Spiked gauntlets should be a much more viable weapon choice once the Martial power book comes out. The Tempest (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080905)option for the fighter sounds right at home with Spiked Gauntlets. In fact, I start a campaign in a week, and that's the path I'm looking to take.

OOTS_Rules 2
2008-11-13, 04:50 PM
A paladin of Kord might be a good fit. I believe they have some healing ability, so high dex is not really needed.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-13, 09:20 PM
Spiked gauntlets indeed do exist in Adventurer's Vault. They are quite weak, though, and there are no feats for them, unlike other weapons.

The biggest disadvantage of low dex characters is that they cannot access feats for heavy blades - and heavy blades, having the highest attack bonus (very important thing in 4e), are the best weapons.