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View Full Version : Starvation ... or "Blimey, but couldn't I go a piece of steak!"



Pelfaid
2008-11-13, 05:46 AM
In the interest of trying to add that minor touch of realism to one of my 3.5 games, I noticed that though there are spells to create food, and spells to purify food, and just plain foods that can be bought, no penalties exist for the failure to eat.
So I fall upon the playground to help me model these kinds of penalties, primarily for humans. While I am aware that other systems probably already do this but I enjoy 3.5 so please don't suggest another system.

My thoughts:
For every day or so that a character does not eat they take some penalty to all stats.
I fear that people will just eat once every cycle thus staying in the ruling but skirting the intent, so I would like some way for this to adjust for that.
And that is all I have.

Attilargh
2008-11-13, 05:49 AM
Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst) is the SRD entry for starvation and thirst. The same section should be in the DMG, under Environment.

Pelfaid
2008-11-13, 05:53 AM
I looked, I swear I did. I couldn't find it, I swear. :smalleek:

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-13, 06:04 AM
Wait.. wait..

Nonlethal? Not only is your average barbarian going to last weeks before starting to tire, and then go on for another week before collapsing, he'll be FINE as soon as someone feeds him, or he takes his 8 hours rest?

Demented
2008-11-13, 06:06 AM
What level is your average barbarian NPC?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-11-13, 06:21 AM
Rule of three; 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food for an average human.

Suffocation: 2x constitution rounds of holding breath then con check 1/round to hold breath with escalating DC. Average time for CON 15 character: 33 rounds (3 min 18 seconds)

Thirst: 1 day + constitution hours without water then escalating constitution check 1/hour or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal damage. Assuming a lvl 10 commoner with 15 CON (40 HP), average time 2 days 15 hours until unconsciousness, 5 days 6 hours until death.

Starvation: 3 days without food then escalating constitution check 1/day or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal. Same assumption as above, 27 days without foor until unconsciousness, 51 till death.


Huh. The results are pretty accurate for a healthy, experienced human commoner or a well-trained but young human warrior. As for the lvl 10 barbarian with the 100 HP? He could go about a week without water and 2 months without food on average. Still well within the human norm.

EDIT: in a fantasy setting an unconsious character suffering from starvation or thirst dies. You can't eat or drink while unconscious and there's no intravenous feeding.

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-13, 06:30 AM
Rule of three; 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food for an average human.

Suffocation: 2x constitution rounds of holding breath then con check 1/round to hold breath with escalating DC. Average time for CON 15 character: 33 rounds (3 min 18 seconds)

Thirst: 1 day + constitution hours without water then escalating constitution check 1/hour or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal damage. Assuming a lvl 10 commoner with 15 CON (40 HP), average time 2 days 15 hours until unconsciousness, 5 days 6 hours until death.

Starvation: 3 days without food then escalating constitution check 1/day or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal. Same assumption as above, 27 days without foor until unconsciousness, 51 till death.


Huh. The results are pretty accurate for a healthy, experienced human commoner or a well-trained but young human warrior. As for the lvl 10 barbarian with the 100 HP? He could go about a week without water and 2 months without food on average. Still well within the human norm.

EDIT: in a fantasy setting an unconsious character suffering from starvation or thirst dies. You can't eat or drink while unconscious and there's no intravenous feeding.

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who hate catgirls and will be GLAD to intravenously feed them.

Hal
2008-11-13, 06:32 AM
While the nod to realism can be nice, I've never played in a game where food was handled beyond "buy rations and check one off for each day you're in the wilderness."

It's just hard to worry about paying a silver or two for a meal every 4-6 hours when you're trying to save the Princess/kingdom/world.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 08:41 AM
While the nod to realism can be nice, I've never played in a game where food was handled beyond "buy rations and check one off for each day you're in the wilderness."

It's just hard to worry about paying a silver or two for a meal every 4-6 hours when you're trying to save the Princess/kingdom/world.and by 5th level, you should have thousands of GP. The 1 sp a day really isn't worth noting.

bosssmiley
2008-11-13, 09:02 AM
EDIT: in a fantasy setting an unconsious character suffering from starvation or thirst dies. You can't eat or drink while unconscious and there's no intravenous feeding.

You can feed an unconscious person through a feeding tube though. IIRC the Egyptians and Ancient Greeks used flexible reeds. Whether there are any of these reeds in your masterwork Healers Kit or not though...

Good rule of 3 btw Belial

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 09:17 AM
You can feed an unconscious person through a feeding tube though. IIRC the Egyptians and Ancient Greeks used flexible reeds. Whether there are any of these reeds in your masterwork Healers Kit or not though...

Good rule of 3 btw Belial

Besides that, there are a bunch of spells that when cast negate the need for food and water for X duration (usually days). Cast one of those on one on starving/thirsting unconscious person, and he will no longer be starving/thirsting and can recover normally from there.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-13, 09:27 AM
Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst) is the SRD entry for starvation and thirst. The same section should be in the DMG, under Environment.

There are, however, no rules for tummyaches.

Paramour Pink
2008-11-13, 09:30 AM
You can feed an unconscious person through a feeding tube though. IIRC the Egyptians and Ancient Greeks used flexible reeds. Whether there are any of these reeds in your masterwork Healers Kit or not though...

Good rule of 3 btw Belial

I didn't know that about the feeding tubes. Pretty nice.

But I'm pretty sure I've heard the rule of 3 from CSI, and even then I'm sure they got it from somewhere else.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 09:36 AM
I didn't know that about the feeding tubes. Pretty nice.

But I'm pretty sure I've heard the rule of 3 from CSI, and even then I'm sure they got it from somewhere else.I always thought it came out of the military.

Paramour Pink
2008-11-13, 09:40 AM
I always thought it came out of the military.

Dear, I'm not even sure which military you're speaking of specifically, but even if I did, I would never be able to confirm. I have no idea where it came from. :smallfrown:

kjones
2008-11-13, 06:09 PM
I first heard the rule of 3 from nature walks at the Audubon Society... it's just one of those things.

The rules are fairly realistic for, say, a 1st level commoner, but they break down at higher levels, as do most things in 3rd edition... I think the world record for surviving without any water is about a week, though YMMV. Furthermore, it seems unrealistic that the only penalty (in addition to damage) is being fatigued. I would bump this up to exhausted after the second or third failed save... do you really think you'd be in much of a state to do anything after going without water for a week?

Prometheus
2008-11-13, 06:29 PM
Create Food and Water does ruin all the fun involved in sieges and the wilderness travel. Therefore, a gp material component is a houserule solution. Any situation of issolation and deprivation is therefore still a problem.

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-13, 06:34 PM
Wait.. wait..

Nonlethal? Not only is your average barbarian going to last weeks before starting to tire, and then go on for another week before collapsing, he'll be FINE as soon as someone feeds him, or he takes his 8 hours rest?

Not quite:

Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

So only if someone feeds him. Of course, being unconscious for any length of time in the wilderness in a D&D world is pretty much a death sentence. The heroic barbarian trekking for days or weeks through the lifeless desert without food or water is kind of an iconic image anyway.

D&D isn't really built to be a game where you worry about your day to day survival and dwindling supplies. I'm sure there's more robust systems of starving/etc. D&D is a game about killing monsters and taking their stuff.

That having been said, I'm also sure someone has already homebrewed a slightly less ridiculous (notice I didn't say 'more realistic'!) system for this.
obnoxious
sig

Hal
2008-11-13, 06:40 PM
Not quite:

D&D isn't really built to be a game where you worry about your day to day survival and dwindling supplies. I'm sure there's more robust systems of starving/etc. D&D is a game about killing monsters and taking their stuff.


I played in a D&D game that was so low on resources that we had to take professions to scrape by survival money. It was terribly depressing. It's very hard to feel like a heroic paragon of good when you're working a crappy job for a few silvers a day and taking lodging in the temple of Fharlangn because it's the cheapest place in the city.

I always thought the game was supposed to be an escape from real life.

daggaz
2008-11-13, 07:02 PM
Rule of three; 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food for an average human.

The correct rule of three is: 3 minutes without proper medical attention, 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.

It is an old survivalist addage about how fast you can die from lack of each, and has to do with how you should prioritize things, should you find yourself in a typical survivalist situation (lost in the mountains etc..) So its look after serious injuries first, find shelter from the elements second (be it heat or cold), find fresh water, then start looking for food.

As for DnD, did you really expect that much realism from a high-fantasy gaming system? About as much fun as counting arrows or weighing EVERY item in your inventory... you might as well ask your players to follow your new butt-wiping rule system. You dont want to roll a one here, believe me.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-13, 07:09 PM
Frankly, I just buy one of those eternal ration thingys out of Heroes of Battle and be done with it.

DM: "You need food."
Me: "I have food. It's not tasty, and it apparently comes from nowhere--which is more than a little disconcerting--but it's edible and I don't die."
DM: "Balls. Now I have to find another way to make this urgent."

Cybren
2008-11-13, 07:30 PM
Frankly, I just buy one of those eternal ration thingys out of Heroes of Battle and be done with it.

DM: "You need food."
Me: "I have food. It's not tasty, and it apparently comes from nowhere--which is more than a little disconcerting--but it's edible and I don't die."
DM: "Balls. Now I have to find another way to make this urgent."

If the DM wants things to seem urgent he probably shouldn't be allowing you to get magic items that outright foil that urgency, should he?

Starbuck_II
2008-11-13, 07:48 PM
Frankly, I just buy one of those eternal ration thingys out of Heroes of Battle and be done with it.

DM: "You need food."
Me: "I have food. It's not tasty, and it apparently comes from nowhere--which is more than a little disconcerting--but it's edible and I don't die."
DM: "Balls. Now I have to find another way to make this urgent."

Fax, why not buy a Spell Component pouch? It has food.
It is assumed to have every spell components: yes there are food products in that.
Butter, Pie, etc.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-13, 07:53 PM
Fax, why not buy a Spell Component pouch? It has food.
It is assumed to have every spell components: yes there are food products in that.
Butter, Pie, etc.

That's not the intent of a spell component pouch, so I feel bad about using it that way. Also, the DM can arbitrarily say, "Your pouch is running low and/or out of components," and then what? I'll be scrüd.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 08:16 PM
That's not the intent of a spell component pouch, so I feel bad about using it that way. Also, the DM can arbitrarily say, "Your pouch is running low and/or out of components," and then what? I'll be scrüd.You don't have 10? But yes, really, in most games, you have enough GP that it doesn't matter. Heck, you start off with ~100 GP. 10 of that will last you till 6th level.

Asbestos
2008-11-13, 11:53 PM
Huh. The results are pretty accurate for a healthy, experienced human commoner or a well-trained but young human warrior. As for the lvl 10 barbarian with the 100 HP? He could go about a week without water and 2 months without food on average. Still well within the human norm.


And he could go about 4 months without eating anything at all before he dies. What humans do you know, cause none I know hibernate.

Zeful
2008-11-14, 12:01 AM
Fax, why not buy a Spell Component pouch? It has food.
It is assumed to have every spell components: yes there are food products in that.
Butter, Pie, etc.

It also has random pieces of creatures for the simulacrum spell.


Rule of three; 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food for an average human.

Suffocation: 2x constitution rounds of holding breath then con check 1/round to hold breath with escalating DC. Average time for CON 15 character: 33 rounds (3 min 18 seconds)

Thirst: 1 day + constitution hours without water then escalating constitution check 1/hour or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal damage. Assuming a lvl 10 commoner with 15 CON (40 HP), average time 2 days 15 hours until unconsciousness, 5 days 6 hours until death.

Starvation: 3 days without food then escalating constitution check 1/day or take 1d6 unhealable nonlethal. Same assumption as above, 27 days without foor until unconsciousness, 51 till death.


Huh. The results are pretty accurate for a healthy, experienced human commoner or a well-trained but young human warrior. As for the lvl 10 barbarian with the 100 HP? He could go about a week without water and 2 months without food on average. Still well within the human norm.

EDIT: in a fantasy setting an unconsious character suffering from starvation or thirst dies. You can't eat or drink while unconscious and there's no intravenous feeding.

Note: The human average in D&D had a con of 10 so these are all above-average individuals.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-14, 04:59 AM
Another thing to consider is, some PC's actually invest in Survival. It's hard to keep a party starved even in harsh conditions if say, your ranger has it maxed.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-14, 06:13 AM
Wait.. wait..

Nonlethal? Not only is your average barbarian going to last weeks before starting to tire, and then go on for another week before collapsing, he'll be FINE as soon as someone feeds him, or he takes his 8 hours rest?

Isen't there a rule that once you max out your non-lethal damage, you start taking real damage? I'm almost sure that had something like that for extreme heat and cold.

And yeah, D&D characters tend to be more durable than your average joe. Someone that can survive being trampled by giants, burned by firebreathing dragons, and survive a fall of miles, can stand a little hunger pains everynow and then.

Satyr
2008-11-14, 08:01 AM
I would disagree with a certain tendency in this thread - I think it is both advisable and more interesting to make sure that the characters have to go through hardships and have not always enough ressources; it is not advisable to treat the characters too well - they grow used to it and start to gripe and lament when suddenly things do not work completely according to plan. Spoiled players can easily destroy the atmosphere of any game.
And, scarcety of food is a source of suspense which can be used to make the game more challenging, offers a pressure of time, a source for strive and moral conflicts, etc. No gamemaster should voluntarily abstain from such a great instrument for the game's suspense.

Heroism is not about being stronger, or more powerful or better than anything or anyone else. If anything, superiority is the opposite of heroism. Heroism is about beating unlikely odds, overcoming risks and dangers which seem unbeatable and not giving up when facing overwhelming opositions. Heroism is not about beating up weaker enemies who never have a real chance - it is about facing those who beat up the weaker ones.

kjones
2008-11-14, 08:59 AM
There's one addition to the rule of three that I just remembered -

You can survive for 3 seconds without keeping your cool.

Not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand, but important in the real world, and in game too, I suppose.

Another_Poet
2008-11-14, 10:52 AM
Wait.. wait..

Nonlethal? Not only is your average barbarian going to last weeks before starting to tire, and then go on for another week before collapsing, he'll be FINE as soon as someone feeds him, or he takes his 8 hours rest?

Read the rest of the entry. That damage cannot be healed by any means, even magic, till you eat/drink.

Anyway, this thread has given me a great idea for a feat....

edit: and here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5292358#post5292358)!