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RMS Oceanic
2008-11-13, 10:00 AM
A problem that Gestalt can incur is increased Multiple Ability Dependancy (MAD) when compared to regular playing. Just for kicks, I thought it might be fun if we compiled a list of gestalt class combinations that could get away with putting everything into a single ability score. Feel free to contribute.

Strength
Fighter//Barbarian
Barbarian//Ranger
Ranger//Fighter
Fighter//Warblade
Warblade//Ranger
Warblade//Barbarian
Warblade//Crusader
Crusader//Fighter

Dexterity
Rogue//Ranger
Rogue//Fighter
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Rogue//Scout
Fighter//Ranger
Fighter//Swashbuckler
Fighter//Scout
Ranger//Swashbuckler
Ranger//Scout
Scout//Swashbuckler
Swordsage//Rogue
Swordsage//Ranger
Swordsage//Swashbuckler
Swordsage//Scout

Constitution
Fighter//Barbarian
Fighter//Knight
Fighter//Dragon Shaman
Dragon Shaman//Knight
Dragon Shaman//Barbarian
Warblade//Fighter
Warblade//Knight
Warblade//Barbarian
Warblade//Dragon Shaman
Warblade//Crusader
Crusader//Knight

Intelligence
Wizard//Factotum
Wizard//Rogue
Wizard//Beguiler
Wizard//Psion
Wizard//Duskblade
Beguiler//Rogue
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Psion
Beguiler//Duskblade
Factotum//Rogue
Factotum//Psion
Factotum//Duskblade
Psion//Rogue
Psion//Duskblade
Duskblade//Rogue
Warblade//Wizard
Warblade//Rogue
Warblade//Factotum
Warblade//Psion
Warblade//Duskblade
Warblade//Swashbuckler

Wisdom
Cleric//Monk
Cleric//Druid
Cleric//Psychic Warrior
Cleric//Spirit Shaman
Cleric//Swordsage
Druid//Monk
Druid//Psychic Warrior
Druid//Spirit Shaman
Druid//Swordsage
Monk//Psychic Warrior
Monk//Spirit Shaman
Monk//Swordsage
Psychic Warrior//Spirit Shaman
Psychic Warrior//Swordsage
Swordsage//Spirit Shaman

Charisma
Sorceror//Paladin
Sorceror//Warmage
Sorceror//Favoured Soul
Sorceror//Bard
Sorceror//Warlock
Sorceror//Wilder
Sorceror//Dragon Shaman
Paladin//Warmage
Paladin//Favoured Soul
Paladin//Warlock
Paladin//Wilder
Paladin//Dragon Shaman
Paladin//Crusader
Warmage//Favoured Soul
Warmage//Warlock
Warmage//Wilder
Warmage//Dragon Shaman
Favoured Soul//Warlock
Favoured Soul//Wilder
Favoured Soul//Dragon Shaman
Warlock//Wilder
Warlock//Dragon Shaman
Wilder//Dragon Shaman

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 10:02 AM
You left Warblade out of the Int list. Monk can be on any of the 3 mental lists due to feats changing the AC around.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-13, 10:22 AM
You know, this would be easier to read if under any ability score you simply listed the classes SAD'ding with that, rather than listing every single permutation of two of those classes...

Burley
2008-11-13, 10:35 AM
Also, I argue that the Warlock class is not ability dependant at all, and should pop up in the Dex column at least with rogue.

Toxic Avenger
2008-11-13, 10:48 AM
Paladin//Bard could also be added to the Charisma column.

In case anyone brings up the alignment conflict, Devoted Performer makes this possible, as well as both the Paladin of Freedom and the Paladin of Slaughter.

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 10:57 AM
Archivist can use Int, and work well with almost any other Int requiring class. (although for Balance reasons, you may not want to allow a Wizard//Archivist)

Dragonfire Adepts are in many respects spiffed up Dragon Shamans, and also require Con and Cha. Although they suffer ASF, and are unsuitable for pairing with a martial class. Best used with a primary caster.

Dread Necromancers require Cha, and also suffer ASF. Again, best used with another primary caster.

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 11:12 AM
Paladin//Bard could also be added to the Charisma column.

In case anyone brings up the alignment conflict, Devoted Performer makes this possible, as well as both the Paladin of Freedom and the Paladin of Slaughter.

Also any reasonable GM waiving the non-lawful requirement of the bard. Seriously, why is that even there?

Fostire
2008-11-13, 01:10 PM
Also, I argue that the Warlock class is not ability dependant at all, and should pop up in the Dex column at least with rogue.

Agree with that. Warlock//Rogue is an awesome gestalt combination that only depends on dex. Warlock doesn't depend on charisma at all, it only uses it for save DCs and the invocations that allow saves aren't very good anyway.

monty
2008-11-13, 02:02 PM
Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

Mephit
2008-11-13, 02:06 PM
Wisdom
Monk//Swordsage


A lie! Monk Wis-to-AC doesn't stack with the Swordsage's bonus. And the monk doesn't really have any other useful class features based on Wis (except for Stunning Fist, but a 1-level dip isn't exactly a gestalt build), it probably shouldn't be up there. And the character wouldn't be able to use Armor, since he'd lose most of his monk class features.

Fostire
2008-11-13, 02:17 PM
Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

Yes, but a warlock//rogue really benefits from dex (mostly on the rogue side), it is useful for the rogue skills and the EB attack bonus (although since its a touch attack you'll probably hit most of the time anyway).

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-13, 02:28 PM
Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

wadledo
2008-11-13, 02:43 PM
Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

And at 12(possibly before), you can cast level 1 spells!:smalleek:

Optimystik
2008-11-13, 02:46 PM
Also any reasonable GM waiving the non-lawful requirement of the bard. Seriously, why is that even there?

Because learning to be a master musician should require little to no dedication! Or something...

streakster
2008-11-13, 02:46 PM
Agree with that. Warlock//Rogue is an awesome gestalt combination that only depends on dex. Warlock doesn't depend on charisma at all, it only uses it for save DCs and the invocations that allow saves aren't very good anyway.

Ahem. Utterdark Blast? Word of Changing?

But yeah, you can build a warlock with low CHA.

Eldariel
2008-11-13, 02:56 PM
(although for Balance reasons, you may not want to allow a Wizard//Archivist)

It's actually less powerful than most of the high-powered Gestalt builds since all adding Wizard to an Archivist adds is extra longetivity with the extra spell slots. Wizard/Psion, Archivist/Psion, and especially Wizard/Factotum or Archivist/Factotum are far more powerful. Warblade-multiclass is competitive too.

ocato
2008-11-13, 03:01 PM
I might suggest that you add Bard//Marshal to the Charisma list. Or Bard//Dragon Shaman for that matter.

Fostire
2008-11-13, 03:16 PM
Ahem. Utterdark Blast? Word of Changing?


Oh. Right. I was thinking on the lower level ones.

monty
2008-11-13, 03:30 PM
Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

You have no spellcasting, and with 8 Con you won't be doing much in melee unless you want to be dead. That leaves...the animal companion.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 03:33 PM
You have no spellcasting, and with 8 Con you won't be doing much in melee unless you want to be dead. That leaves...the animal companion.So with 0 PB you're roughly similar to a Fighter or Monk with 28.

monty
2008-11-13, 03:37 PM
So with 0 PB you're roughly similar to a Fighter or Monk with 28.

True, but you have to protect the squishy commoner.

mangosta71
2008-11-13, 03:45 PM
Housecat should be added into the Dex table. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2008-11-13, 03:48 PM
Spellthief//X and Hexblade//X should be added to the Cha table, imo. Hexblade//Spellthief is a nasty combo indeed.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-13, 03:54 PM
True, but you have to protect the squishy commoner.

With Natural Bond and a Fleshraker at level 1 (dependent on DM agreement, but with 0 PB I'd hope they'd cut you a bit of slack), that shouldn't be a problem. Eventually, get an Elephant and you can ride safely protected in its mouth. Actually, after level 5 you can just wildshape into something small and hide on/in your animal companion all day.

Alternativly, put all your stat boosts into Con, take Improved Toughness and Extra Toughness at 3 & 6 (for a whopping 11 extra HP at level 6), or Flyby Attack, and be a cautious precision/opportunist striker with your wildshape. Which is also useful for scouting, getting around obstacles/traps, alternative transportation, and more.

Mephit
2008-11-13, 03:58 PM
With Natural Bond and a Fleshraker at level 1

Wait, what? How? The Natural Bond feat can't exceed your HD. So DM agreement doesn't come into that, unless you mean homebrewing. :smallconfused:

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-13, 04:01 PM
Wait, what? How? The Natural Bond feat can't exceed your HD. So DM agreement doesn't come into that, unless you mean homebrewing. :smallconfused:

Huh. What do you know.

Well, armored riding dog until level 4 then. Meanwhile, play the tiniest race (without LA) that you can.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 04:04 PM
Huh. What do you know.

Well, armored riding dog until level 4 then. Meanwhile, play the tiniest race (without LA) that you can.Anthropomorphic Bat. That way you can cast, on occasion.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-13, 04:08 PM
Anthropomorphic Bat. That way you can cast, on occasion.

Yeah, that lets you just hide in the cleric's backpack while your animal does all the fighting. Plus you can scout at level 1.

Townopolis
2008-11-13, 06:04 PM
Knight should be added to the CHA list, if Paladin and Crusader are on it. All the classes defining abilities rely heavily on your charisma.

Just a note, but paladin//crusader isn't a terribly good gestalt. Take one of those with knight and it's just plain better.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-13, 06:51 PM
You know, this would be easier to read if under any ability score you simply listed the classes SAD'ding with that, rather than listing every single permutation of two of those classes...
In some cases, it's kinda needful. A Monk or Ninja, for instance, has a fairly bad case of MAD out of the box - but if you put Druid on the other side, so that you can get Wildshape to cover Strength and Dex, then suddenly it doesn't need nearly so much of anything but Wisdom and Con.

Likewise, certain class combos are only MAD when you attempt to fill both classes' primary role.

A Paladin//Sorcerer, who plays both an Arcanist and a Front-Line melee character, is going to be very, very MAD.

A Sorcerer//paladin, who plays as an Arcanist and mostly just uses the Paladin side for the saves, healing, and hit die is less MAD than a standard Sorcerer (doesn't need as much Con for HP due to the larger hit die and higher base Fort save; doesn't need as much Wis due to Charisma to saves; and so on).

The Paladin//sorcerer, who plays as a front-liner and only uses Sorcerer spells for long-duration buffs and the occasional spell without somatic components doesn't have any more of a case of MAD than does a standard Paladin.

monty
2008-11-13, 06:55 PM
Don't make the Paladin/Sorcerer MAD. You wouldn't like him when he's MAD.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-13, 07:13 PM
Don't make the Paladin/Sorcerer MAD. You wouldn't like him when he's MAD.
Fortunately, he has some slight difficulties Raging (well, unless he uses the spell....)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-13, 07:35 PM
Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) is SAD for Wisdom with Zen Archery. Soulknife 5/ Soulbow // Fighter is right up there with a Cloistered Cleric // Fighter for archery.

Paladin // Sorcerer isn't MAD, all he needs is SAD Cha, 14s on his physical stats, Int 10, Wis 12. The actual build would start out Paladin 5// Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1 and then be a big mess of alternating Sorcerer/Fighter with Spellsword. Polymorph or just buffs works for Str, along with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Wraithstrike, maybe even Rhino's Rush from Paladin (with 1st level Pearls of Power). That combination is definitely SAD.

Jermlaine from MM2 is the best Druid race (updated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) for +0 LA). Tiny size Fey, it gets Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6, so playable with 0 pointbuy.

monty
2008-11-13, 08:13 PM
Jermlaine from MM2 is the best Druid race (updated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) for +0 LA). Tiny size Fey, it gets Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6, so playable with 0 pointbuy.

0 strength? Pass.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 08:28 PM
0 strength? Pass.Druid. You may be parapalegic, but you turn into a bear and you can walk just fine.

(and it's actually just a 1-2, not 0)

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 09:02 PM
It's actually less powerful than most of the high-powered Gestalt builds since all adding Wizard to an Archivist adds is extra longetivity with the extra spell slots. Wizard/Psion, Archivist/Psion, and especially Wizard/Factotum or Archivist/Factotum are far more powerful. Warblade-multiclass is competitive too.


I would say Archivist//Wizard synergize far better than the with Psion or Factotum. Firstly, Archivist provides unparalleled versatility. Seriously, how can the ability to cast most Arcane, and every Divine spell not be broken? On a similiar note, you can specialize the Wizard side, and lose far less, as the Archivist side can still pick up spells from the banned schools.

Secondly and more importantly is their focus on spells. Not the spell focus feats, but that magic feats (or PrC abilities) taken by one side can apply to the other. Over the course of 20 levels, Wizards get 4 bonus feats and Archivist get 2, for a total of 6. And feats invested in magic apply to both sides (E.g. Stack Easy and Practical Metamagic to lower Quicken spell to +2), whereas a Wizard//Psion can't do this. Because of this, a Wizard//Archivist can also invest all his Character feats into magic feats as well, whereas a Wizard//Psion has to split his feats between Psionic and Magic feats.

It gets more broken once you add PrCs. A 10 Archivist/10 Dweomerkeeper // 5 Wizard/10 Incantatrix/5 Archmage can stack Cloak of Mysteries and Improved Metamagic to get a -2 discount on all metamagics. And can still take Practical/Easy Metamagic on top of that. Maximize/Chain/Repeat spell at +1 each? Twin/Quicken Spell at +2 each (+1 if you apply either Easy or Practical Metamagic)? Persistent Spell at +4 (+2 if you apply both easy and practical metamagic)? Other abilites may also apply to both sides. Archmage Arcane Reach, Mastery of Shaping and Spell Power do not explicitly specify that they can only be applied to Arcane spells in their description. So you can put them to your Archivist spells as well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 09:07 PM
I would say Archivist//Wizard synergize far better than the with Psion or Factotum. Firstly, Archivist provides unparalleled versatility. Seriously, how can the ability to cast most Arcane, and every Divine spell not be broken? On a similiar note, you can specialize the Wizard side, and lose far less, as the Archivist side can still pick up spells from the banned schools.

Secondly and more importantly is their focus on spells. Not the spell focus feats, but that magic feats (or PrC abilities) taken by one side can apply to the other. Over the course of 20 levels, Wizards get 4 bonus feats and Archivist get 2, for a total of 6. And feats invested in magic apply to both sides (E.g. Stack Easy and Practical Metamagic to lower Quicken spell to +2), whereas a Wizard//Psion can't do this. Because of this, a Wizard//Archivist can also invest all his Character feats into magic feats as well, whereas a Wizard//Psion has to split his feats between Psionic and Magic feats.

It gets more broken once you add PrCs. A 10 Archivist/10 Dweomerkeeper // 5 Wizard/10 Incantatrix/5 Archmage can stack Cloak of Mysteries and Improved Metamagic to get a -2 discount on all metamagics. And can still take Practical/Easy Metamagic on top of that. Maximize/Chain/Repeat spell at +1 each? Twin/Quicken Spell at +2 each (+1 if you apply either Easy or Practical Metamagic)? Persistent Spell at +4 (+2 if you apply both easy and practical metamagic)? Other abilites may also apply to both sides. Archmage Arcane Reach, Mastery of Shaping and Spell Power do not explicitly specify that they can only be applied to Arcane spells in their description. So you can put them to your Archivist spells as well.You still only have one or 2 spells a round. A Factotem can take extra actions, and gets Int to almost anything. So it goes from "I wait for Initiative and cast my highest-level Arcane spell and a Swift Ranger self-buff" to "I add Int to Init, cast a spell, adding Int to the touch AB, cast a quickened spell, and snag a second action for a third spell. Is it dead yet? Oh, it's buddy is attacking? I add Int to AC." Very nice synergy.

Edit:and you can only do 1 PrC at a time.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-13, 10:05 PM
Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) is SAD for Wisdom with Zen Archery. Soulknife 5/ Soulbow // Fighter is right up there with a Cloistered Cleric // Fighter for archery.

Paladin // Sorcerer isn't MAD, all he needs is SAD Cha, 14s on his physical stats, Int 10, Wis 12. The actual build would start out Paladin 5// Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1 and then be a big mess of alternating Sorcerer/Fighter with Spellsword. Polymorph or just buffs works for Str, along with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Wraithstrike, maybe even Rhino's Rush from Paladin (with 1st level Pearls of Power). That combination is definitely SAD.

Is it really a Paladin//Sorcerer if it's only got five levels in Paladin, and spends the rest of it's career avoiding more Paladin levels? Are you sure 14's in three stats plus a Primary Stat qualifies as "SAD"?

Also, if your DM enforces XP penalties, that could very well end up as a painful character to play.

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 10:06 PM
Edit:and you can only do 1 PrC at a time.


Bleagh forgot about that rule. That puts Chain/Empower at +1, Twin/Quicken at +3 (+1 if you invest feats) after and Persist at +5 (+3 if you invest feats). Still relatively useful though, especially persist.



You still only have one or 2 spells a round. A Factotem can take extra actions, and gets Int to almost anything. So it goes from "I wait for Initiative and cast my highest-level Arcane spell and a Swift Ranger self-buff" to "I add Int to Init, cast a spell,


Since when did Wizards wait for initative. I always thought they just cram out Celerity.



adding Int to the touch AB,


Divine Buffs. Archivist//Wizard can persist Divine Power, Bless, Recitation etc.



cast a quickened spell, and snag a second action for a third spell.


I'll admit that this is a nice ability. You could also burn your feats on easy/practical metamagic on Twin spell and reduce it to +1, thereby effectively giving you extra spells per round, but thats a rather expensive way of accomplishing the same thing.



Oh, it's buddy is attacking? I add Int to AC." Very nice synergy.


Divine buffs. Persisted Delay Death, Beastland Ferocity, Death Ward, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, etc.

Really, short of extra actions, there are very few problems that can't be solved by access to virtually all spells, and a crap ton of metamagic.

monty
2008-11-13, 10:08 PM
You can't cast divine buffs reactively.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-13, 10:09 PM
Is it really a Paladin//Sorcerer if it's only got five levels in Paladin, and spends the rest of it's career avoiding more Paladin levels?

Also, if your DM enforces XP penalties, that could very well end up as a painful character to play.XP penalties in Gestalt are way too complicated. IIRC, the Gestalt Build Challenge ended up dumping them completely, and they were almost perfectly RAW otherwise. But the Pally isn't actually horrible to keep leveling in in Gestalt. Full BAB, a good save, scaling healing, d10 HD, and the Mount, which IIRC you can combine with the Familiar through a PrC or feat, is decent.

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 10:22 PM
You can't cast divine buffs reactively.


Perhaps, but I am persisting them. Which means casting them once at the start of the day and having them last the next 24 hours.

monty
2008-11-13, 10:23 PM
Perhaps, but I am persisting them. Which means casting them once at the start of the day and having them last the next 24 hours.

How many turning attempts are you getting to persist all that stuff? You can't possibly cover everything.

Unless you're using all your high level slots on cheap buffs, which isn't much better.

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 10:36 PM
How many turning attempts are you getting to persist all that stuff? You can't possibly cover everything.

Unless you're using all your high level slots on cheap buffs, which isn't much better.


Mid-High actually. Between Incantatrix and feats, a Archivist//Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage can bring the cost of Persist down to +3. And keep in mind that between an Archivist and Spec Wizard, it has 9 slots or so per level to mess with.

If you want to use Turning attempts instead, just splash any Divine casting class with turn undead (like Sacred Exorcist), and burn through nightsticks.

Also, some of those "cheap buffs" work exceedingly well together. E.g. Beastland Ferocity and Delay Death means you *can't* die from HP loss.

monty
2008-11-13, 10:39 PM
Well, that's hardly fair. You're breaking the game.

Lord_Gareth
2008-11-13, 10:42 PM
Fair is subjective. In a party where the player and DM are all cool with that, that's perfectly fair, and plenty of people have fun that way. In a game where they're not, then no, it isn't fair and the DM should step in.

JeminiZero
2008-11-13, 10:54 PM
Well, that's hardly fair. You're breaking the game.


That is entirely my point. Thus far I've been trying to show that a Wizard//Archivist is heavily imbalanced. Its why I said:



although for Balance reasons, you may not want to allow a Wizard//Archivist

Philistine
2008-11-13, 10:55 PM
Would a Warblade//Rogue really be SAD for INT? It seems like it'd be more effective to pump either DEX (with Weapon Finesse) or STR, and take 12 or 14 in INT.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 02:15 AM
That is entirely my point. Thus far I've been trying to show that a Wizard//Archivist is heavily imbalanced. Its why I said:

No, you've shown that Incantatrix and DMM with Nightsticks is heavily imbalanced. Congratu-****ing-lations. Tell me something I don't know. If we're going that high in power, we might as well be using Polymorph Any Object and Metamorphic Transfer to qualify for Beholder Mage, or Shapechange to gain every spell list in the game, or ascend into godhood. Incantatrix+Factotum still kicks more ass than Incantatrix+Archivist. And even Psion gets a few extra actions with Schisms and Temporal Acceleration (much earlier than the arcane counterpart), Fission, Synchronity, etc.

Psions themselves aren't as strong as Arcane casters, as powers have less support to be broken and thus, while they have an insane amount of actions, they can't bone the reality that hard with those actions. Arcane casters, on the other hand, are perfectly capable of boning the reality in the back, but are limited to doing it few times per turn. The combination has Psion grant the actions and Arcane caster make those actions as powerful as possible. Only Factotum truly competes with that (since they can pull off totally ridiculous novas on level 8). Archivist just doesn't add much to Wizard. They have the same spell lists pretty much (give or take few Divine ones that Wizard can get through Shapechange, Arcane Disciple, Limited Wish and through a hundred other means).

Archivist can persist his spells while Wizard has Incantatrix. However, if you do have Incantatrix, you have all the Persisting you could ever need, so the Archivist-side is once again wasted. And if you don't run Incantatrix, be an Archivist instead of a Wizard and exploit the Nightstick stacking. Point being, either-or is just as good as having both since they're effectively infinite Persists. So having both doesn't help you at all. That's why Archivist/Wizard is a relatively weak combination.


If your point is that it can break the game, every level 1 character can become an overgod. Breaking the game proves nothing - argue a classes merits when they're doing something that won't get banned; now that may just get there.

Sereg
2008-11-14, 03:09 AM
The incarnum using classes need to be added to constitution.

Frosty
2008-11-14, 03:12 AM
If you want to use Turning attempts instead, just splash any Divine casting class with turn undead (like Sacred Exorcist), and burn through nightsticks.

Doesn't work. You can only use DMM on DIVINE spells.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:56 AM
Doesn't work. You can only use DMM on DIVINE spells.

Which Archivist casts. That said, it's all pointless.

Baron Malkar
2008-11-14, 05:05 AM
Wouldn't Archivist//Wizard/Geomancer work better for SAD then the Archivist//Wizard/Incantrix/Archmage as the Archivist's save DCs are based off wisdom.

If you build the combination right you can do anything the Cleric, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, and Rouge can do.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 05:39 AM
Wouldn't Archivist//Wizard/Geomancer work better for SAD then the Archivist//Wizard/Incantrix/Archmage as the Archivist's save DCs are based off wisdom.

If you build the combination right you can do anything the Cleric, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, and Rouge can do.

Archivist's save DCs are based off Int. That's the whole point. Archivist gets bonus spells based on Wis, but since they already have the spells per day of a specialist Wizard, that's ok. Besides, why would you ever not take Incantatrix? A non-Gestalt Wizard/Incantatrix/Shadowcraft Mage is going to tear a gestalt Archivist//Wizard/Geomancer a new one. That's how good Incantatrix is.

Telonius
2008-11-14, 09:02 AM
Is there any reason Fighter//Rogue wouldn't work based on Strength instead of Dex? Rogues don't get dinged for wearing armor the way some other classes do, they just aren't proficient in much of it.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-14, 12:52 PM
Is there any reason Fighter//Rogue wouldn't work based on Strength instead of Dex? Rogues don't get dinged for wearing armor the way some other classes do, they just aren't proficient in much of it.

Yes they do. Read the Rogue's class description again.

Telonius
2008-11-14, 01:44 PM
They would lose Evasion, but that's it, right? The higher HP of the Fighter make Evasion less vitally necessary. The character would still get the Rogue's good Reflex save, any Rogue ability that isn't Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, better skill points, and Sneak Attack.

TerrickTerran
2008-11-14, 07:09 PM
Rogues can indeed go without Dex. Dump Evasion for a trade-off if you can and go to town.

JeminiZero
2008-11-14, 10:25 PM
Doesn't work. You can only use DMM on DIVINE spells.


Get Alternate Spell Source, memorize Arcane Spells as divine spells, apply DMM to them. This might also be a good way to ignore ASF, if you decide to run around in heavy armor and persisted stone body.



No, you've shown that Incantatrix is heavily imbalanced.


You could use Dweomerkeeper instead if you wanted. It boils down to heavily discounted metamagic. Although Incantatrix is nice for persisting 7th level and above.



Congratu-****ing-lations. Tell me something I don't know.


OK, how about this: a more polite tone can still get the point across just as well, without making us look bad.



Only Factotum truly competes with that (since they can pull off totally ridiculous novas on level 8). Archivist just doesn't add much to Wizard. They have the same spell lists pretty much (give or take few Divine ones that Wizard can get through Shapechange, Arcane Disciple, Limited Wish and through a hundred other means).


Limited Wish: Burn XP each time you cast it? We're talking about multiple Divine buffs you are going to cast at the start of each day. Not one off spells like resurrection.

Arcane Disciple: Sure you could take it. But while you're taking it, you're not taking Incantatrix, or anything else.

How exactly does Shapechange add to your spell list? I'm guessing you're shifting into a planetar to gain their Cleric spellcasting?



If we're going that high in power, we might as well be using Polymorph Any Object and Metamorphic Transfer to qualify for Beholder Mage, or Shapechange to gain every spell list in the game, or ascend into godhood.




If your point is that it can break the game, every level 1 character can become an overgod. Breaking the game proves nothing.


Right. Just to clarify, what I meant was, that an Archivist//Wizard does not need to use cheese, and can rely on what DMs would typically allow. He can persist mid level spells without relying on DMM, or incantatrix instant metamagic. With persisted spells, he suddenly becomes virtually unkillable, and can melee as well as the fighter, without using the polymorph line. He can access virtually all spells without abusing shape change. And while outfighting the fighter, he still packs the utility and capacity to go nova as a wizard (although admittedly, the Nova isn't as big as Factotum or Psion version). Essentially, he makes the rest of the party look like chumps, without cheese (or at least, any more cheese that is already inherent in gestalt).

monty
2008-11-14, 11:10 PM
Arcane Disciple: Sure you could take it. But while you're taking it, you're not taking Incantatrix, or anything else.

How exactly does Shapechange add to your spell list? I'm guessing you're shifting into a planetar to gain their Cleric spellcasting?

Feats don't interrupt class progression.

Yes.

JeminiZero
2008-11-14, 11:20 PM
Feats don't interrupt class progression.

Yes.


Ah, that Arcane Disciple. But you only get 1 domain from that don't you? You would need a rather heavy feat investment to get the essential Divine spells that way.

monty
2008-11-14, 11:22 PM
Ah, that Arcane Disciple. But you only get 1 domain from that don't you? You would need a rather heavy feat investment to get the essential Divine spells that way.

There's always Shadowcraft Mage Miracle cheese to get half of them out of first level slots.

JeminiZero
2008-11-14, 11:35 PM
There's always Shadowcraft Mage Miracle cheese to get half of them out of first level slots.

Don't you burn XP that way?

monty
2008-11-14, 11:37 PM
Don't you burn XP that way?

No, for two reasons. First, using Miracle to emulate a spell doesn't cost XP. Second, even if it did, shadow spells don't use any of the second spell's components.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-14, 11:46 PM
No, for two reasons. First, using Miracle to emulate a spell doesn't cost XP. Second, even if it did, shadow spells don't use any of the second spell's components.
1) Miracle expressly costs XP when the duplicated spell does (so if you're duplicating Permanency, you're going to be spending a lot of XP).
2) While you may be able to cast a miracle as a Shadowcrafter, 1) You can only do it once per day, and 2) Miracle still technically isn't on the Sor/Wiz list.

monty
2008-11-14, 11:47 PM
1) Miracle expressly costs XP when the duplicated spell does (so if you're duplicating Permanency, you're going to be spending a lot of XP).

Again, not if you're emulating it with a shadow spell, because the XP cost is a component of the spell, which the shadow version ignores.


2) While you may be able to cast a miracle as a Shadowcrafter, 1) You can only do it once per day, and 2) Miracle still technically isn't on the Sor/Wiz list.

The first only holds if the second does, and the second is subject to interpretation. Also, Shadowcraft Mage, not Shadowcrafter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 11:48 PM
1) Miracle expressly costs XP when the duplicated spell does (so if you're duplicating Permanency, you're going to be spending a lot of XP).
2) While you may be able to cast a miracle as a Shadowcrafter, 1) You can only do it once per day, and 2) Miracle still technically isn't on the Sor/Wiz list.Arcane Disciple, and Metamagic Reducers. You can get it down to a 7th level slot.

monty
2008-11-14, 11:49 PM
Arcane Disciple, and Metamagic Reducers. You can get it down to a 7th level slot.

And that one tactical feat whose name I can't remember. If you cast all your buffs on consecutive turns, half of them will be out of 1st level slots. Or cantrips, if you take that gnome racial substitution level.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-14, 11:55 PM
Arcane Disciple, and Metamagic Reducers. You can get it down to a 7th level slot.
You misunderstand; I'm familiar with the method. It's added to your class list. It's not added to the Sor/Wiz list, which is what the Shadow spells duplicate.

monty
2008-11-14, 11:58 PM
You misunderstand; I'm familiar with the method. It's added to your class list. It's not added to the Sor/Wiz list, which is what the Shadow spells duplicate.

Arcane Disciple adds them to "your class spell list." You are a sorcerer or wizard, therefore it is added to your list.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 12:18 AM
You misunderstand; I'm familiar with the method. It's added to your class list. It's not added to the Sor/Wiz list, which is what the Shadow spells duplicate.

The character with the feat considers the spells to be on whatever class spell list he has spellcasting from. If he's a Wizard, they're added to his Wizard spell list, which is what his shadow spells emulate. Just like a specialist Wizard removes the spells from his prohibited school(s) from his Wizard spell list. It doesn't automatically add the spells to your list of spells known, because it specifically says a Sorcerer must still spend one of his spells known to learn any Arcane Disciple domain spells, chosen from his Sorcerer class spell list just like any other spells he learns.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-15, 12:21 AM
The character with the feat considers the spells to be on whatever class spell list he has spellcasting from. If he's a Wizard, they're added to his Wizard spell list, which is what his shadow spells emulate. Just like a specialist Wizard removes the spells from his prohibited school(s) from his Wizard spell list. It doesn't automatically add the spells to your list of spells known, because it specifically says a Sorcerer must still spend one of his spells known to learn any Arcane Disciple domain spells, chosen from his Sorcerer class spell list just like any other spells he learns.
Only in the same sense that per Core RAW, a Sorcerer can learn any spell, not just those on the Sor/Wiz list.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 12:28 AM
Right, I see now; Miracle is added to that character's class spell list, but Shadow Conjuration/Evocation and Shadow Illusion can only emulate spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not your Sorcerer or Wizard spell list. If you could add Miracle via Arcane Disciple, then making a specialized Illusionist and choosing Evocation as a prohibited school would make you unable to cast a shadow version of any Evocation spell.

monty
2008-11-15, 12:33 AM
Right, I see now; Miracle is added to that character's class spell list, but Shadow Conjuration/Evocation and Shadow Illusion can only emulate spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not your Sorcerer or Wizard spell list. If you could add Miracle via Arcane Disciple, then making a specialized Illusionist and choosing Evocation as a prohibited school would make you unable to cast a shadow version of any Evocation spell.

*gasp* No evocation? But how would you do direct damage?

I mean, besides the fact that direct damage sucks. And orb spells. And disintegrate.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-15, 12:35 AM
*gasp* No evocation? But how would you do direct damage?

I mean, besides the fact that direct damage sucks. And orb spells. And disintegrate.
It's Contingency that he's worried about. And Resilient Sphere. And Wall of Force. Or, for the Shadow Mage that banned Conjouration and Evocation (knowing he'd get 90% of it back from Shadow spells), it's Mage Armor, the entire Wall line, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, and quite a few others.

monty
2008-11-15, 12:36 AM
Given the choice between all of that and cheap Miracles, I'd go with the Miracles.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 12:38 AM
Wall of Force, Forcecage, Contingency....

Regardless, it's fairly standard to take Evocation as a prohibited school and then use Shadow Evocation to make up for it. As-written, you're able to do that because Shadow Evocation copies spells from the general Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not your Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Any modifications to your character's spell list don't have any effect on what you can emulate with a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation or a Shadow Illusion, including the Miracle trick.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-15, 12:41 AM
Given the choice between all of that and cheap Miracles, I'd go with the Miracles.
It's not a choice between, though; the same logic that puts Miracle (an Evocation) on the Sor/Wiz list for purposes of Shadow Mage Shadow Evocations takes all Evocations (including Miracle) off the Sor/Wiz list for purposes of the Shadow Mage Shadow Evocation list for the Illusionist Specialist who bans Evocation.

monty
2008-11-15, 12:44 AM
So don't ban evocation?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 12:57 AM
It's not a choice at all. Evocations are never removed from the list for purposes of Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Illusion, even when it's chosen as a prohibited school. Just the same, spells are never added to the list for purposes of Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Illusion. They emulate spells from the general Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not your character's spell list. What spells your character gains or loses access to will never change the list of what spells can be emulated.

Eldariel
2008-11-15, 01:30 AM
You could use Dweomerkeeper instead if you wanted. It boils down to heavily discounted metamagic. Although Incantatrix is nice for persisting 7th level and above.

Yes. Heavily discounted metamagic is also broken. And if only one side is allowed, it's in no way exclusive to Wizard/Archivist. In fact, it again boils down to the redundancy between the two classes.


OK, how about this: a more polite tone can still get the point across just as well, without making us look bad.

It's just that you're stating the obvious means to break the game as some sort of salvation to the combination of classes, which is just a wee bit annoying.


Limited Wish: Burn XP each time you cast it? We're talking about multiple Divine buffs you are going to cast at the start of each day. Not one off spells like resurrection.

Arcane Disciple: Sure you could take it. But while you're taking it, you're not taking Incantatrix, or anything else.

How exactly does Shapechange add to your spell list? I'm guessing you're shifting into a planetar to gain their Cleric spellcasting?

As for Limited Wish, it's of course not used for every divine spell every. As has been pointed out, Shadowcraft Mage would work.

Disciple-thing was already pointed out.

And for Shapechange, yes, just turn into any creature with native casting and use that. Although it's again an obvious means to break the game.


Right. Just to clarify, what I meant was, that an Archivist//Wizard does not need to use cheese, and can rely on what DMs would typically allow. He can persist mid level spells without relying on DMM, or incantatrix instant metamagic. With persisted spells, he suddenly becomes virtually unkillable, and can melee as well as the fighter, without using the polymorph line. He can access virtually all spells without abusing shape change. And while outfighting the fighter, he still packs the utility and capacity to go nova as a wizard (although admittedly, the Nova isn't as big as Factotum or Psion version). Essentially, he makes the rest of the party look like chumps, without cheese (or at least, any more cheese that is already inherent in gestalt).

And again, that's saying something about the classes, not the combination. I don't see how it's unclear that combining two casting classes with principally the same key spells is redundant and thus doesn't increase your character power as much as it could.