Miko the Prophet

[Shatteredtower]

Time for a new Miko thread! (Yes, I went there. :smalltongue: ) Please be warned that this is both absurd and long-handed (like long-winded, only written rather than said).

In strip #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), Miko declares:

"But mark my words: this act of defiance has sealed your fate. You shall suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good."

She was correct on two levels. First, the Order's choice cemented Miko's negative view of the party thoroughly enough to automatically believe the worst of them and, by association, her master for working with them to get around her and her fellow paladins. This lead to Shojo's death, the fragmenting of the city's defenses under an untried new leader, and the sundering of the Order of the Stick.

More to the point, is the fact that Roy died as he did only because Belkar handed him a ring of jumping. Without it, Roy was left to lament the absence of a wizard with a fly spell, unable to prevent Xykon from reaching the throne room. Mr. Greenhilt might still have found another route to his demise without either the aid of either Xykon or Belkar -- perhaps by taking the poisoned arrow for Hinjo, for example -- but since that is not a given, we have only the certainty of Miko's statements and their accuracy to guide our judgment.

We cannot prove that Roy's presence (and, by extension, the choice of Evil as respresented by Belkar) delayed Xykon's arrival just long enough to give Miko time to destroy the gate at the worst possible moment, but it seems likely. While it did delay the lich a few rounds, we can't be certain that he'd have met Tsukiko if he'd arrived earlier on dragonback and needed more time to locate the throne room without her directions.

If he had met her, he'd have arrived in the throne room earlier in relation to the events resulting in Redcloak's epiphany (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), allowing Soon and the martyrs of the Sapphire Guard more time to deal with a sorcerer using the least efficient spells at his disposal for tackling incorporeal foes. Xykon would thus have been defeated well before Redcloak arrived, and Redcloak's time of arrival sets the timing for when Tsukiko damaged the prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), which in turn affects the timing of Miko's (and the Linear Guild's) escape. Based on his track record (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html), it's unlikely that Xykon would have allowed Redcloak to get anywhere near the throne room after his defeat. This means that even if Miko had gone to the throne room (uncertain, since it was the lich's voice that drew here there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)), she'd have found it securely in the hands of the Sapphire Guard. Under the circumstances, she wouldn't have seen any cause, justified or not, for destroying the gate.

On the other hand, if Xykon had not encountered Tsukiko, Miko (and the Linear Guild) would not have escaped from prison, Xykon would have been beaten, and there's a possibility that both his phylactery and Redcloak would have been destroyed.

Thus, Miko's words are also directed at Shojo: by standing up for the Order (and saving Belkar), her master has not only signed his own death warrant, but doomed the city he serves.

But let's go back to strip #285 for some more of Miko's prophecies:

"I only pray that the Twelve Gods allow it to be my hand that strikes the final blow, so that I might feel your warm, sin-stained blood spilled rightfully on the cold hard ground."

In the last panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), she fulfills the words of her prayer (though not her intention) by striking the final blow, the one that determines the outcome of the battle for her city. And , she comes into contact with the blood of slain members (and one former member) of the Sapphire Guard, spilled rightfully (in opposing Xykon) and stained with the sins of our two major villains.

Of course, this is an echo of [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html]an earlier event (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), in which Miko sheds her master's blood (which is indeed sin-stained, though not in the manner she believes). Rightful? Only in the most dubious sense of it being fitting that he should meet his fate at the hands of one of those he'd deceived.

Therefore, the second part of Miko's prophecy was directed against her lord in spite of both what she'd intended and what she wished. A prophet does not get to determine the future, nor is she necessarily granted the ability to understand the predictions she delivers. Miko fulfills the role perfectly.

Unfortunately, her efforts to interpret signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) deliver unsatisfactory results (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html). These are the sort of things she probably should have left to her horse.

[Samurai Jill]

"But mark my words: this act of defiance has sealed your fate. You shall suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good."
Yeah, this is what you might call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Shatteredtower]

Yeah, this is what you might call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh, sure. It just didn't fulfill in the manner Miko intended or would have desired.

I just got a kick out of the irony of her statements in that strip, realized I was soon reading a bit too much into it, and decided to run with it anyway. :smallwink:

Besides, the forums just aren't the same without Miko threads... :smalltongue:

[HamsterOfTheGod]

"But mark my words: this act of defiance has sealed your fate. You shall suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good."

"I only pray that the Twelve Gods allow it to be my hand that strikes the final blow, so that I might feel your warm, sin-stained blood spilled rightfully on the cold hard ground."


If anything Miko is foreshadowing herself.

She's the one whose act of defiance, the killing of Shojo, sealed her own fate. And she suffered a great loss for choosing Evil over Good.

With her hands she struck her own final blow, the one that destroyed the Gate and let Xykon escape, the blow that let her feel her own warm, sin-tainted blood as she died on the cold hard ground.

[Samurai Jill]

I blame the Plum Sauce.

(War and XPs inside joke)

[fangthane]

3 things.
1. She's pointing at the Order when she utters that dire "prophecy" - it doesn't apply to Shojo and efforts to fit it that way are sophistry at best, delusion or deception at worst.
2. The "prophecies" of Nostradamus can be adapted or explained to fit a broad variety of future scenarios; so, retrospectively, are those you've attributed to Miko as prophecy.
3. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Or at least, it was prior to the ubiquity of LCD.

(and then you had to go and ADMIT that you were reading too much into it and pre-emptively take the sting out of this! :smallbiggrin: )

[Assassin89]

I really see the irony in those statements because of the cutaway panel showing Roy's corpse.

I do not see Miko as a prophet. I see her more as a Manchurian Candidate.
The biggest question I have is whether her parents have something to do with Shojo's murder? Subliminal messages, abandonment to harbor resentment

[Shatteredtower]

If anything Miko is foreshadowing herself.

Oh, absolutely. The fun of it for me is how much she foresees in this one strip while still gettting nearly everything almost completely wrong.


I blame the Plum Sauce.

Heh. Cute. I still prefer Miko's reply to the statement, "You know how it is with new couples," though. Funny, telling, and painful at the same time.


I do not see Miko as a prophet. I see her more as a Manchuria Candidate.

That does sound like it could make for an amusing conspiracy theory. Thanks.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Oh, absolutely. The fun of it for me is how much she foresees in this one strip while still gettting nearly everything almost completely wrong.
Good point.

[Samurai Jill]

Heh. Cute. I still prefer Miko's reply to the statement, "You know how it is with new couples," though. Funny, telling, and painful at the same time.
Yeah. You just want to hug her and smack her at the same time.

[Dublock]

*claps* You deserve this *claps*

Yes...Perhaps another title should be Miko the ironic.

[Linkavitch]

That. . .was a lot of work you put into this. Kudos.

[David Argall]

In the last panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), she ...striking the final blow, the one that determines the outcome of the battle for her city.
While the blow was the most dramatic of the battle, it was neither the final one, nor the decisive one. It happened after the city was effectively lost. And a good deal of killing happened after this.

[SPoD]

While the blow was the most dramatic of the battle, it was neither the final one, nor the decisive one. It happened after the city was effectively lost. And a good deal of killing happened after this.

That depends on whether you classify the battle of Azure City as a battle for the city, or a battle for the Gate. It was, unambiguously, the final blow in the battle for the Gate, which in turn determines the fate of her city.

One could also make an argument that if she hadn't destroyed the Gate, Soon could have killed Redcloak and Xykon—and without those two, the city could have been retaken over the next 2-3 days. The Order wouldn't have split, because Redcloak wouldn't have attacked the ship, and they could have regained spells and wiped out a few thousand hobgoblins a day without trouble. Since a battle does not need to be defined as a one-day occurrence (the battle of Gettysburg took four days, just as an example), they would still be considered to have won the battle for the city. Thus, it was the single most decisive blow in the battle for the city as well, if only because it prevented the day's previous losses from being quickly reversed.

[Warlord JK]

Many authors foreshadow, and each has their own style. Rich's style appears to be using his characters frequently, with Miko and The Oracle being the most prominent.

[Theodoriph]

Time for a new Miko thread! (Yes, I went there. :smalltongue: ) Please be warned that this is both absurd and long-handed (like long-winded, only written rather than said).

In strip #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), Miko declares:

"But mark my words: this act of defiance has sealed your fate. You shall suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good."

She was correct on two levels. First, the Order's choice cemented Miko's negative view of the party thoroughly enough to automatically believe the worst of them and, by association, her master for working with them to get around her and her fellow paladins. This lead to Shojo's death, the fragmenting of the city's defenses under an untried new leader, and the sundering of the Order of the Stick.

More to the point, is the fact that Roy died as he did only because Belkar handed him a ring of jumping. Without it, Roy was left to lament the absence of a wizard with a fly spell, unable to prevent Xykon from reaching the throne room. Mr. Greenhilt might still have found another route to his demise without either the aid of either Xykon or Belkar -- perhaps by taking the poisoned arrow for Hinjo, for example -- but since that is not a given, we have only the certainty of Miko's statements and their accuracy to guide our judgment.

We cannot prove that Roy's presence (and, by extension, the choice of Evil as respresented by Belkar) delayed Xykon's arrival just long enough to give Miko time to destroy the gate at the worst possible moment, but it seems likely. While it did delay the lich a few rounds, we can't be certain that he'd have met Tsukiko if he'd arrived earlier on dragonback and needed more time to locate the throne room without her directions.

If he had met her, he'd have arrived in the throne room earlier in relation to the events resulting in Redcloak's epiphany (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), allowing Soon and the martyrs of the Sapphire Guard more time to deal with a sorcerer using the least efficient spells at his disposal for tackling incorporeal foes. Xykon would thus have been defeated well before Redcloak arrived, and Redcloak's time of arrival sets the timing for when Tsukiko damaged the prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), which in turn affects the timing of Miko's (and the Linear Guild's) escape. Based on his track record (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html), it's unlikely that Xykon would have allowed Redcloak to get anywhere near the throne room after his defeat. This means that even if Miko had gone to the throne room (uncertain, since it was the lich's voice that drew here there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)), she'd have found it securely in the hands of the Sapphire Guard. Under the circumstances, she wouldn't have seen any cause, justified or not, for destroying the gate.

On the other hand, if Xykon had not encountered Tsukiko, Miko (and the Linear Guild) would not have escaped from prison, Xykon would have been beaten, and there's a possibility that both his phylactery and Redcloak would have been destroyed.

Thus, Miko's words are also directed at Shojo: by standing up for the Order (and saving Belkar), her master has not only signed his own death warrant, but doomed the city he serves.

But let's go back to strip #285 for some more of Miko's prophecies:

"I only pray that the Twelve Gods allow it to be my hand that strikes the final blow, so that I might feel your warm, sin-stained blood spilled rightfully on the cold hard ground."

In the last panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), she fulfills the words of her prayer (though not her intention) by striking the final blow, the one that determines the outcome of the battle for her city. And , she comes into contact with the blood of slain members (and one former member) of the Sapphire Guard, spilled rightfully (in opposing Xykon) and stained with the sins of our two major villains.

Of course, this is an echo of [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html]an earlier event (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), in which Miko sheds her master's blood (which is indeed sin-stained, though not in the manner she believes). Rightful? Only in the most dubious sense of it being fitting that he should meet his fate at the hands of one of those he'd deceived.

Therefore, the second part of Miko's prophecy was directed against her lord in spite of both what she'd intended and what she wished. A prophet does not get to determine the future, nor is she necessarily granted the ability to understand the predictions she delivers. Miko fulfills the role perfectly.

Unfortunately, her efforts to interpret signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) deliver unsatisfactory results (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html). These are the sort of things she probably should have left to her horse.



You're grasping at straws. Your interpretation of the so-called "second prophecy" is especially bad. You need to reinterpret the meaning of the word "your".

Though really, the fact that you have to pull the lines so far out of context to try to make them fit with your theory, already proves it's a dud. Pulling words and phrases out of context when interpreting literature, statutes etc. is generally a bad idea. Context is quite important.

Thirdly, you needn't even have bothered with the first interpretation. "If you do this, bad stuff will happen," is not a convincing prophecy by any stretch of the imagination. In life, there's an extremely high probability bad stuff will happen no matter what you choose to do. :smalltongue: It's pretty much 100%. That's how psychics survive. They generalize so much (re: bad stuff will happen), and since it's pretty much guaranteed to happen...they con silly believers out of money.

[Paramour Pink]

I'm all for giving Miko more credit. No matter how ridiculous and strange your ideas are, I support them on account of everyone's favourite paladin. :smallamused:

[Assassin89]

I'm all for giving Miko more credit. No matter how ridiculous and strange your ideas are, I support them on account of everyone's favourite paladin. :smallamused:

Don't you mean least favorite. Although miko is a good character, there are others to balance her flaws

[Samurai Jill]

Miko is the most interesting paladin of the story, even if she's not the favourite, precisely because it's difficult to imagine how she picked up all these flaws while still being a sincere paladin. (Hinjo, by contrast, is Practically Perfect In Every Way(tm), and IMHO consequently ranges between the unnervingly robotic, the irresponsibly naive, and the outright colourless.)

[Paramour Pink]

Pfft, she's my favourite, and by logic that, clearly must be everyone else's fav as well. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[MReav]

Pfft, she's my favourite, and by logic that, clearly must be everyone else's fav as well. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

How dare you be so presumptive.

*Goes to corner to write Miko-centric fanfiction*

[Warren Dew]

1. She's pointing at the Order when she utters that dire "prophecy"

True - she clearly thinks she's directing those words at the order.

On the other hand, the second panel's worth does seem quite presciently applicable to Shojo, right down to the part about her feeling his "sin-stained blood".

Some oracles understand their predictions; others do not.

[David Argall]

That depends on whether you classify the battle of Azure City as a battle for the city, or a battle for the Gate. It was, unambiguously, the final blow in the battle for the Gate, which in turn determines the fate of her city.
No. The city was absolutely lost at that point.


One could also make an argument that if she hadn't destroyed the Gate, Soon could have killed Redcloak and Xykon—and without those two, the city could have been retaken over the next 2-3 days.
With what army? The human army was just about entirely wiped out. There were 20,000 hobs still in action, and the explosion killed a huge number of them, so there might be 25,000 if Miko had not destroyed the Gate.
Now without Miko, Soon could have killed Redcloak and Xykon, but apparently only temporarily. Xykon reappears unless Recloak's holy symbol is destroyed, and Soon can't do that. He hoped some human would appear to do that, but the castle is crawling with enemy. Nobody but Miko is going to get into the throne room.
That means that Redcloak's body and holy symbol stay safe until the hobs figure out a way to get it out of there, which is not a difficult task. One Raise Dead and a week and they are back in business.


The Order wouldn't have split, because Redcloak wouldn't have attacked the ship, and they could have regained spells and wiped out a few thousand hobgoblins a day without trouble.
A total exaggeration of OOTS power. To quote Hinjo and Haley
"You guys could kill hundreds more today."
"Too bad there are tens of thousands left to be killed."

And this is before Haley adds in Xykon.

No. The PCs are studs, but they are not epic level, and they are not going to retake the city without an army behind them.

[Sinewmire]

Miko:
"But mark my words: this act of defiance has sealed your fate. You shall suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good."

Hinjo:
"I'll stand between any two murderers I like, thanks."

[Shatteredtower]

Well played, Sinewmire. :smallsmile:


While the blow was the most dramatic of the battle, it was neither the final one, nor the decisive one.

It was most certainly the decisive one in the battle for the city. The rest was merely a matter of technique, but without Xykon and Redcloak, things weren't so certain for the hobgoblin forces. While sheer weight of numbers could eventually have overpowered Tsukiko (who had every reason to harbour a grudge, and none of the connections necessary to forge an alliance with the hobgoblin's next leader), they were practically worthless against Soon.

And it was most certainly a final blow: for Miko. For the throne and gate. For the battle to determine who would get the gate. Prophecy is meant to be open to multiple interpretations.


With what army?

The ones at sea. Kubota and the nobles would have loved the opportunity to "rescue" Lord Hinjo (gaining leverage) from the leaderless invading force.

The ones who wouldn't have been slain by the explosion, as well as those who'd fled before Redcloak's Charge. Soon's oath to protect the gate doesn't appear to confine him to the throne room and he's got more than enough presence to rally forces far more effectively than even Hinjo could. There's not even a question of whether he'd try to do so: keeping the city out of hobgoblin hands goes a long way toward protecting the gate.


Now without Miko, Soon could have killed Redcloak and Xykon, but apparently only temporarily. Xykon reappears unless Recloak's holy symbol is destroyed, and Soon can't do that. He hoped some human would appear to do that, but the castle is crawling with enemy. Nobody but Miko is going to get into the throne room.

Assuming Miko had not shown up, the incorporeal paladin was more than capable of cleansing the castle of intruders, clearing a path for any available ally to assist him. And if Miko had shown up on an altered time table, Xykon was toast a lot more quickly. In the worst case scenario, Soon only has to hold out on his own for a day or so before the other ghost martyrs return, giving him the upper hand against the remaining hobgoblin forces.


That means that Redcloak's body and holy symbol stay safe until the hobs figure out a way to get it out of there, which is not a difficult task. One Raise Dead and a week and they are back in business.

Xykon and Redcloak didn't share any of your optimism back in strip #462. Maybe it's because they knew that the vast majority of their forces were completely incapable of offering any kind of threat whatsoever to an incorporeal opponent, especially one as powerful as Soon. The few who might have a chance of hurting him (most of those mid-level fighters with magical weapons and a 50% miss chance with them) could hardly hope to put more than a small dent in him.

Maybe it was because we've never seen any other hobgoblin cleric cast a spell of higher than 2nd level, indicating that they deemed raise dead entirely out of the question. It's not like Tsukiko was going to cast it -- not that she'd have stood a chance against Soon either. (Even if she created a few allies, he'd still go after her first, and he'd win.)

Whatever the case, they both knew they were lost -- right up until the point Miko rescued them.


A total exaggeration of OOTS power.

A slight exaggeration, since Haley's calculation didn't factor in any remaining Azurite forces. It certainly didn't include the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, a group that could easily destroy the majority of the hobgoblin forces in a matter of hours by themselves, and have cause to do so. They're not going to tolerate the presence of anyone serving under the bearer of the Crimson Mantle in their city.


You're grasping at straws.

You quoted the entirety of my post in one block and failed to spot the absurdity warning in my first paragraph? Goodness, but that's sad. :smallfrown:


Your interpretation of the so-called "second prophecy" is especially bad. You need to reinterpret the meaning of the word "your".

Not at all. The prophecy is easily capable of speaking to the prophet as well as anyone else.


Context is quite important.

The irony of this statement is richer than that found in Miko's dialogue. Talk about missing the context! :smallwink:


Thirdly, you needn't even have bothered with the first interpretation. "If you do this, bad stuff will happen," is not a convincing prophecy by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmm? You just described Cassandra's warning against bringing a certain horse into Troy. It pretty much describes the prophecy given to Croesus in regard to the Persian Empire as well.

You also leave out a key element of Miko's prediction: the doom will be a result of the Order's (as well as Shojo's and perhaps even Miko's) choice.


That's how psychics survive.

No, it's how those professing to be psychics make a living. Prophecy is an entirely different game, one that sometimes demands more of the prophet than it gives, whether it's the prophet's sight, sanity, soul, or life. As noted elsewhere:


Some oracles understand their predictions; others do not.

[Theodoriph]

You quoted the entirety of my post in one block and failed to spot the absurdity warning in my first paragraph? Goodness, but that's sad. :smallfrown:


Making a statement does not preclude someone else from reinforcing that statement. Goodness, but that's sad.

Actually, reinforcing people's statements/beliefs plays a large role in various aspects of life.



Not at all. The prophecy is easily capable of speaking to the prophet as well as anyone else.

In the context of the whole quote, the panels, and the strip...no sorry, no dice. It doesn't make sense.



Hmm? You just described Cassandra's warning against bringing a certain horse into Troy.

If you read the story of the Trojan War and suspend your disbelief, then Cassandra is a prophet...well...because the story says so. It says that Apollo cursed her to prophesy the truth but never be believed.

But who cares about the suspension of disbelief! With regards to the specific prophecy you mention, have you ever read it? I trust you have, and that you undertstand its import as well as the context in which it was given. Here's the prophecy itself:

"Four times [the horse] struck [the gates]: as oft the clashing sound/ Of arms was heard, and inward groans rebound./ Yet, mad with zeal, and blinded with our fate,/ We haul along the horse in solemn state;/ Then place the dire portent within the tow'r./ Cassandra cried, and curs'd th' unhappy hour;/ Foretold our fate; but, by the god's decree,/ All heard, and none believ'd the prophecy."

Now explain your point in more detail.

Although you likely won't convince me, since well Cassandra's "prophecy" (if one can call it that) is quite different from what I was alluding to.



You also leave out a key element of Miko's prediction: the doom will be a result of the Order's (as well as Shojo's and perhaps even Miko's) choice.

Goodness, but you're wrong. If you do this, bad stuff will happen. By simple logical reasoning, the bad stuff happens because or as a result of your choice.

If I go to med school, bad stuff will happen. The bad stuff is happening as a result of my going to med school.




No, it's how those professing to be psychics make a living. Prophecy is an entirely different game, one that sometimes demands more of the prophet than it gives, whether it's the prophet's sight, sanity, soul, or life.


Find me a real life prophet. A real prophet. Flesh and blood. Actually existed.


You'll not that I didn't reply to some lines. This is because context is important. If you keep my quotes in context (those that obviously belong together), I'll reply. If you pull them out of context, I don't see the point. Pulling things out of context to make them fit your worldview is wrong. It also tends to get discussions off track pretty quickly, as once the context is removed, there's no guiding principle holding the parties to the topic and the original qualm. It's also rather annoying for most readers.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The biggest question I have is whether her parents have something to do with Shojo's murder? Subliminal messages, abandonment to harbor resentment

Miko said she was an orphan. The only thing we know about her parents are that they were nobles and her mother was named Eiko.

She was taken into a monastery to train in the sacred art of punchin' and kickin' and became a paladin at age 13. So she probably lost her parents around age 10 or 11.

She mentions that she cried after having to leave the dojo and become a paladin, so she probably turned her duty to the Twelve Gods and Azure City into a kind of surrogate parent, which probably set off an explosion of betrayal and abandonment issues when she discovered Shojo bragging about how he lied to her and being all buddy-buddy with the guys that tried to kill her.

[hamishspence]

There have been Lots of prophets (or people who called themselves that) and people who claimed to be "fulfilling the prophesy" Whether their claims were true is not the question for this thread.

[Shatteredtower]

Theodoriph, I can't make heads or tales out of what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure you're not getting this at all. Others have pointed out the flaws in the position I've not seriously proposed, but they understand the point well enough: there's something amusing in the words Miko used and how well they relate to things that turned out.

But please carry on with trashing whatever it is you're reading instead. :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

It was most certainly the decisive one in the battle for the city.
How? The city was flooded with hobgoblins, who were slaughtering any defending troops.


sheer weight of numbers could eventually have overpowered Tsukiko (who had every reason to harbour a grudge, and none of the connections necessary to forge an alliance with the hobgoblin's next leader),
This is rank speculation. The presumption must be that Tsukiko will forge an alliance with any new hobgoblin leader. Note here that 457 shows that a substantial number of hobgoblins, presumably including the general, had seen Tsukiko in "friendly" discussion with Redcloak. So once we assume the castle isn't destroyed, Tsukiko has plenty of openings to start talks with the new leader. [Alternately, she is strong enough to persuade the hobgoblins to talk instead of being killed. Note here too that the hobgoblins took lots of slaves. So they are not likely to approach her as something to immediately kill.]



And it was most certainly a final blow: for Miko. For the throne and gate. For the battle to determine who would get the gate.
Which is not the battle to get the city.


The ones at sea. Kubota and the nobles would have loved the opportunity to "rescue" Lord Hinjo (gaining leverage) from the leaderless invading force.
This army at sea seems to be of trivial size. The nobles fled because of a fear the city could not be held, but the remaining forces are rated at roughly a 50-50 shot of holding the city. So if the forces at sea are of serious size, they would have been able to hold the city by staying. And while the nobles might expect to make Hinjo suffer relatively more than they, their losses in city property, etc, have got to be fantastic. So the noble "armies" number in the hundreds, compared to the tens of thousands of hobgoblins.


The ones who wouldn't have been slain by the explosion, as well as those who'd fled before Redcloak's Charge.
Look at 463. The exploding castle is flooded with a sea of orange, with a few scattered and rapidly dying defenders. Without the explosion, there would have thousands more hobgoblins, and one or two more defenders, who would not have escaped the city.


Those who fled before Redcloak's charge were effectively lost. Only one ship was left, and it was crammed with civilians. They may be part of the resistance, but they would have useless in any renewed battle for the city.
We may also look at 446 and 450 to find that the number who fled was in the low hundreds, again a trivial figure against 20,000+ foes.

[QUOTE=Shatteredtower;5292194]
Soon's oath to protect the gate doesn't appear to confine him to the throne room
Again you are being wildly optimistic. There are obviously limits, and servere ones, on what Soon can do, and the presumption is that he was entirely unable to leave the throne room. You protect a gate, you stay close to that gate, not wander all over the place.



In the worst case scenario, Soon only has to hold out on his own for a day or so before the other ghost martyrs return, giving him the upper hand against the remaining hobgoblin forces.
In the worst case scenario, the hobgoblins send in 50-100 "volunteers" who ignore Soon and grab Redcloaks body and holy symbol. Soon can kill 10-20 of them, but the rest get out with the body, and as mentioned, the two leaders are back in business.



Xykon and Redcloak didn't share any of your optimism back in strip #462.
Both were concerned with the immediate tactical situation, not with overall view, of which they were ignorant in part. Xykon had no assurance no human would come wandering in to finish him off. And Redcloak didn't know that Soon couldn't hurt his holy symbol.


Maybe it was because we've never seen any other hobgoblin cleric cast a spell of higher than 2nd level,
465 includes a cleric casting Cure Serious. 433 talks of squads of clerics able to cast animate dead. DMG suggests that the hobgoblins would have at least 3 clerics able to raise dead.



It's not like Tsukiko was going to cast it
Well, she wouldn't cast it eagerly. But it is pretty easy to imagine a scenario where she casts it. Presumably the general survives the non-destruction of the castle. So he might well declare that her proof of good faith would be raising the supreme leader. And for the right pay, she would agree.



Whatever the case, they both knew they were lost
What they knew and what were the facts were not the same thing.


A slight exaggeration, since Haley's calculation didn't factor in any remaining Azurite forces.
Azurite forces are broken and scattered. They are pretty much worthless for this battle.


It certainly didn't include the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, a group that could easily destroy the majority of the hobgoblin forces in a matter of hours by themselves, and have cause to do so.
Among other things, the ghost martyrs are subject to Turning, and outside of the consecrated area would be turned fairly easily. Again, they are tied to defending the gate, not the city, and their ability to leave the throne room suspect at best.

[hamishspence]

"The presumption must be" why, exactly? Redclock treated her with contempt- how do we know hobgoblins wouldn't do the same?

[David Argall]

"The presumption must be" why, exactly? Redclock treated her with contempt- how do we know hobgoblins wouldn't do the same?

Redcloak is 16th? level and can be contemptuous of mere 13th? level. While there are presumably higher level hobgoblins, there aren't many, or likely any, who exceed 13th, so they can't be as free with giving her lip.
Also Redcloak is pictured as far more anti-human than the typical humanoid. They mostly deem it fun to beat up humans. Redcloak considers it a duty. Again, we see an increase in willingness to deal with Tsuskiko.

[Theodoriph]

Theodoriph, I can't make heads or tales out of what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure you're not getting this at all. Others have pointed out the flaws in the position I've not seriously proposed, but they understand the point well enough: there's something amusing in the words Miko used and how well they relate to things that turned out.

And so you realized you were being destroyed and fled. :smallsmile:


1) That would be called a coincidence, not a prophecy. There's quite the difference.


2) Having said that, I understand it all fairly well. I also understand that you're being "silly", it makes no sense and I understand that I enjoy pointing that out.

[Shatteredtower]

Again, it seems I must point out that there was never a serious attempt to declare Miko a prophet. The point is that there is ironic foreshadowing in her statements, which, as the Giant states in the introduction to "Round 2: Q&A" of War and XPs:

"I've always been a fan of prophecies and foreshadowing in stories..."

I do not suggest that the Giant intended for Miko's statements from the strip I'd originally quoted to be foreshadowing or even an ironic inversion of foreshadowing, sort of an equivalent of saying the right four words for all the wrong reasons. Calling it a series of coincidences is such a statement of the obvious as to be wholly irrelevant.

I do have to address the demand to name a real prophet with this observation: since discussion of real religions is banned, that pretty much makes the demand moot at best.

Now, back to the "final blow" debate. I hope you'll pardon the omission of links to the referenced strips, but my access is very limited at present. (The delay is also a result of the same problem.)


How? The city was flooded with hobgoblins, who were slaughtering any defending troops.

In other words, the battle is still raging and morale is still a factor. The Battle of Hastings came within a hair's breadth of turning against the Normans over the rumour that William had fallen. Sure, the hobgoblins have a larger numerical advantage than the Normans did, but they owe their positional advantage entirely to the two leaders Soon would have killed. Meanwhile, Soon is still on the field, an epic level threat the vast majority of their force can't even hope to scratch, with the rest little more nuisance than ants at a picnic.


This is rank speculation. The presumption must be that Tsukiko will forge an alliance with any new hobgoblin leader. Note here that 457 shows that a substantial number of hobgoblins, presumably including the general, had seen Tsukiko in "friendly" discussion with Redcloak.

Because nothing says "Friendly!" more than a blade barrier to the face. No "must" involved -- the hobgoblins would know what they'd seen, and if it wasn't hostile, it was the next closest thing.


Which is not the battle to get the city.

Irrelevant. The battle to get the city isn't the only condition for which the term fit.


This army at sea seems to be of trivial size.

Not against a leaderless and demoralized force that's already being plagued by an epic-level paladin.


The nobles fled because of a fear the city could not be held...

They fled because it undercut Hinjo's leadership, and saw no personal advantage in staying.


And while the nobles might expect to make Hinjo suffer relatively more than they, their losses in city property, etc, have got to be fantastic.

Not compared to what they pulled out, it seems, in terms of both wealth and forces. To their understanding, Xykon has no intention of keeping the city. The real damage would be to any merchant class; with more at stake, they'd have had more reason to stay. Fewer merchants means fewer debts to repay. Let's not forget that the noble classes tend to be landowners and that a city requires miles of farmland to support its population -- meaning that the vast majority of their holdings lay outside the city walls. Sure, the prime real estate is inside, but the sources of stone and lumber are out in the fields.


So the noble "armies" number in the hundreds, compared to the tens of thousands of hobgoblins.

Factor in the leadership once Xykon and Redcloak are gone, as well as the absence of any hobgoblin fleet, and it's still a contest.


Look at 463. The exploding castle is flooded with a sea of orange, with a few scattered and rapidly dying defenders.

Scattered, yes, but rapidly dying is hyperbole.


Again you are being wildly optimistic. There are obviously limits, and servere ones, on what Soon can do, and the presumption is that he was entirely unable to leave the throne room.

Not according to his last conversation with Miko. The only reason he gave for being unable to pursue was the gate's destruction.


You protect a gate, you stay close to that gate, not wander all over the place.

Ideally, yes, but you can't protect a room on the eighth floor of a tower if you can't protect the base of the tower. Normally, Soon could rely upon the city's living defenders to perform that duty, but these aren't normal circumstances. If he doesn't drive out the army that invaded the throne room now, it's only a matter of time before it falls to someone else.


In the worst case scenario, the hobgoblins send in 50-100 "volunteers" who ignore Soon and grab Redcloaks body and holy symbol.

There are several flaws in that plan, the first of which is that Redcloak's retrieval isn't going to be a priority. Strategically, it would make sense, but this isn't shogi. The hobgoblins have shown no interest in restoring fallen comrades or leaders: Redcloak's reaction to the general's fate in strip #466 suggests that dead leaders stay that way. That's perfectly in line for the rules of succession that left Redcloak in command.

But let's assume that the hobgoblins view Redcloak as a special case, for some reason we've never been shown. (The Crimson Mantle isn't enough of one. The evidence suggests that the item is simply passed on without any intent to restore a former bearer. This isn't proof, but the absence of evidence to the contrary means it's still the most likely scenario.) The next problem is when his restoration becomes a priority. It won't be while Soon is out cleansing the palace and the city isn't entirely pacified, meaning it's, at best, a day before the attempt is made.

Referring back to strip #464, Soon states, "Even now, we are fading to the Celestial Realm." Note the use of the pronoun "we" and remember that Soon was never a king. Note that in strip #464, Redcloak says, "But I'm done," referring to the plan he offered Xykon in strip #459: "I can keep 'turning' them, but I need you to keep Soon -- uh, the leader -- occupied while I do it."

Therefore, we know that whatever happened to those other sixteen ghost martyrs we saw Redcloak turn (based on the number of "Poof!" effects displayed, as well as the number remaining in that final panel we see any other than Soon in strip #464), we know that at least one of them was not destroyed, and that possibly none of them were. We can't even be sure that the ones Xykon defeated have been permanently removed from action, since we don't know if they share the rejuvenation powers of ghosts. (The importance of their oath argues for the possibility.)

If the forces Redcloak defeated were merely turned, they'll be back within the minute. If they were destroyed, then we know rejuvenation is in play and any plan the hobgoblins are likely to put into effect will fail be doomed to failure. Any cleric with any hope of turning the lesser guardians has to come close enough to Soon, assuring their own deaths, which leads to the next problem: how many leaders are the hobgoblins willing to sacrifice to retrieve the body of just one -- when all the evidence indicates that the hobgoblins treat dead as gone even when it comes to their leaders?

Regardless of the numbers involved, the hobgoblins can't bullrush incorporeal opponents, meaning that three or more of them should be able to hold the entrance to the throne room indefinitely. Even if they somehow do get in and get the body out, they're getting slaughtered all the way to whatever cleric they supposedly have prepared to cast raise dead -- at which point, Soon just kills the cleric and Redcloak stays dead.

Oh, and here's one other funny thing: remove paralysis is a 2nd level, close range paladin spell. If Miko doesn't show up, O-Chul isn't necessarily going to stay out of play for long.


Both were concerned with the immediate tactical situation, not with overall view, of which they were ignorant in part.

Based on everything we've seen, Redcloak would be well aware of the resources available to him. If he thinks it's over for him with death, it's over.


465 includes a cleric casting Cure Serious. 433 talks of squads of clerics able to cast animate dead.

Very well, then: we know that they can cast 4th level spells.


DMG suggests that the hobgoblins would have at least 3 clerics able to raise dead.

No, it suggests that a city with a population of 30,000 would have at least 3 clerics able to raise dead. What we have are a gathering of many smaller communities, or legions, reflecting a lower level leadership overall. Not that it matters, since there's still no evidence to suggest that any such clerics that could cast the spell would do so.


Well, she wouldn't cast it eagerly. But it is pretty easy to imagine a scenario where she casts it. Presumably the general survives the non-destruction of the castle. So he might well declare that her proof of good faith would be raising the supreme leader. And for the right pay, she would agree.

Don Quixote himself would have considered this scenario laughably optomistic on even his most delusionally romantic days.


Azurite forces are broken and scattered.

That "are" is not so hard to reverse in battles involving epic level paladins and other high level characters -- whose ranks would no longer include either Redcloak and Xykon.


Among other things, the ghost martyrs are subject to Turning, and outside of the consecrated area would be turned fairly easily.

That assumes that the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, none of them less than 2nd level (since Hinjo assigned the "newbies" to the walls), lack any turn resistance and that the hobgoblins have a lot of clerics to spare. Don't forget that if an evil cleric can "turn" the ghost martyrs, Soon should be able to "bolster" them, and his level so far exceeds that of any hobgoblin cleric present as to render those allies unturnable for a minute at a time. Result : a lot more dead hobgoblin clerics than it's worth.

[David Argall]

In other words, the battle is still raging and morale is still a factor.
The battle was over. What was happening was the mopping up. There was no longer any effective resistance. In 450, the space in front of the castle is jammed with defending troops. The area is heavily orange in 454, and there are just tiny specs of non-orange in 463. Morale had vanished long ago and the troops were running or dying.



The Battle of Hastings came within a hair's breadth of turning against the Normans over the rumour that William had fallen.
And if V had had a disintegrate spell left and took out Redcloak with it during the charge, the hobgoblins might have broken and fled, but it's too late now. The hobgoblins are in the city and slaughtering at will. The defenders are no longer an organized resistance.


Soon is still on the field, an epic level threat the vast majority of their force can't even hope to scratch, with the rest little more nuisance than ants at a picnic.
Again, we have no reason to think Soon can leave the throne room.


Because nothing says "Friendly!" more than a blade barrier to the face. No "must" involved -- the hobgoblins would know what they'd seen, and if it wasn't hostile, it was the next closest thing.
We are talking about Team Evil, and the hobgoblins know those ethics. Little things like threatening her with a blade barrier or "forgetting" to tell the elemental not to kill her are just part of the game. It doesn't mean they are unfriendly... [Well, yes it does, but it gives no reason for the underlings not to bow down to the survivor.] Redcloak talked with her and turned his back on her, without getting a knife put in it. So the hobgoblins have reason to regard her as a possible ally.


Not against a leaderless and demoralized force that's already being plagued by an epic-level paladin.
The hobgoblins clearly have a rather long chain of command, starting with a general who doesn't get killed in the non-exploding castle. So they are not going to be leaderless. And what is the evidence that this paladin can plague them at all? Soon's powers are tied to the Gate. The presumption is that he can't get out of sight of it. He has been standing guard for 50 years and he is presumed to still be a secret. He has clearly not been used in any of the many emergencies that he could have been during that period. And some of them are bound to have been of some danger to the Gate. One way or another, he is not at liberty to just roam the city.


They fled because it undercut Hinjo's leadership, and saw no personal advantage in staying.
Which is the point. If they could have held the city, the amount of personal advantage has to be massive. So if they saw no such advantage, they felt they had no chance to seriously change the result of the battle, and thus that their armies are small.



Not compared to what they pulled out, it seems, in terms of both wealth and forces.
With a few exceptions, the wealth they could carry away would be a small fraction of their possessions. Houses don't move, and the nobles would have big expensive ones.



The real damage would be to any merchant class; with more at stake, they'd have had more reason to stay. Fewer merchants means fewer debts to repay.
It's most unlikely the merchants, particularly those who had a lot of liens on the nobles, would stay in any emergencies that the nobles would flee from. You are talking people with no military training, weapons, or armor, all of which the nobles would have. The only reason they would not leave would be a lack of means, which also means small scale and a lack of contact with the noble class.
Moreover, the distinction between noble and merchant is artificial. While we can see differences between the two, the noble is heavily into merchant work. It's profitable and being a noble is expensive.


Let's not forget that the noble classes tend to be landowners and that a city requires miles of farmland to support its population -- meaning that the vast majority of their holdings lay outside the city walls. Sure, the prime real estate is inside, but the sources of stone and lumber are out in the fields.
But these holdings are already lost to the noble, at least until Xykon leaves. And while they can hope he leaves soon, they will recover the property in damaged condition, meaning very little income for a quite long time. For a period of maybe years, they will not exist, and will not help replace that lost palace.



Scattered, yes, but rapidly dying is hyperbole.
A scattered army is rapidly dying. One isolated soldier keeps on getting attacked by ten. And as noted, we get pictures of the defending army being slaughtered.



Not according to his last conversation with Miko. The only reason he gave for being unable to pursue was the gate's destruction.
That reason links his ability to the Gate, which in turn implies other limits on his ability. Moreover, giving one reason does not mean others do not exist. The first adequately settled the point. It didn't matter if he could fly that far or not.


Ideally, yes, but you can't protect a room on the eighth floor of a tower if you can't protect the base of the tower. Normally, Soon could rely upon the city's living defenders to perform that duty, but these aren't normal circumstances. If he doesn't drive out the army that invaded the throne room now, it's only a matter of time before it falls to someone else.
Soon is one of those who invented that silly paladin oath. He is not one to be stretching meanings. And our pictures of ghosts and guardians are replete with cases of the ghost being limited to a very small area, very powerful within it, but unable to leave.


Redcloak's retrieval isn't going to be a priority. Strategically, it would make sense, but this isn't shogi. The hobgoblins have shown no interest in restoring fallen comrades or leaders: Redcloak's reaction to the general's fate in strip #466 suggests that dead leaders stay that way. That's perfectly in line for the rules of succession that left Redcloak in command.
It's certainly possible in the short run [which is most of what we are interested in], but the hobgoblins have lots of clerics, and Redcloak is both a very valuable magic item and the god's #1 project. Ordering them to rescue and raise him is not at all unreasonable.



Regardless of the numbers involved, the hobgoblins can't bullrush incorporeal opponents,
They can overrun them, rather automatically if they charge in numbers as they should. They can't damage the incorporeal this way in most cases, but here they merely want to get past them, and that they can do.


remove paralysis is a 2nd level, close range paladin spell. If Miko doesn't show up, O-Chul isn't necessarily going to stay out of play for long.
Assuming Soon still has spell casting abilities. It seems reasonable that he does, but we see none of the martyrs casting spells, and some of them are almost pure spellcasters. So it is by no means certain he can cast at all.
Still, this point does make it a good chance that Soon can permanently eliminate Xykon and Redcloak.


Based on everything we've seen, Redcloak would be well aware of the resources available to him. If he thinks it's over for him with death, it's over.
Of course this argument works both ways. Your argument is heavily based on Soon being a world shaking superman who can do most anything. But the very fact he is kept secret and needs boosting argues against this. Soon is very powerful, under very limited circumstances. He can protect the gate. The city will have to defend itself.



Very well, then: we know that they can cast 4th level spells.
Which makes it distinctly likely they can cast a 5th level. Or they may simply keep a few scrolls for emergencies.



No, it suggests that a city with a population of 30,000 would have at least 3 clerics able to raise dead. What we have are a gathering of many smaller communities, or legions, reflecting a lower level leadership overall.
Which doesn't really change the figures. However, we are told that all of the other 86 legions all live in the same valley, and we see a quite substantial city, which X&P is described as a city in the text here.



That "are" is not so hard to reverse in battles involving epic level paladins and other high level characters -- whose ranks would no longer include either Redcloak and Xykon.
Again, we have no reason to think Soon can even leave the throne room, much less the palace, which makes him a trivial problem in capturing the city.



That assumes that the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, none of them less than 2nd level (since Hinjo assigned the "newbies" to the walls), lack any turn resistance and that the hobgoblins have a lot of clerics to spare.
And by the evidence at hand, they did.



Don't forget that if an evil cleric can "turn" the ghost martyrs, Soon should be able to "bolster" them, and his level so far exceeds that of any hobgoblin cleric present as to render those allies unturnable for a minute at a time. Result : a lot more dead hobgoblin clerics than it's worth.
We still get back to the basic, that there is no reason to think they can wander any serious distance from the Gate.

[Shatteredtower]

And if V had had a disintegrate spell left and took out Redcloak with it during the charge, the hobgoblins might have broken and fled, but it's too late now.

A loss of morale is perfectly capable of destroying a completely won position.


Again, we have no reason to think Soon can leave the throne room.

Soon was diplomatic about it, but he consistently corrected every one of Miko's mistakes.


We are talking about Team Evil, and the hobgoblins know those ethics.

They will also eagerly sacrifice themselves to save their supreme commander, and we've yet to see them make any attempt on his life or status since his initiation ceremony.

In this world, hobgoblins have a very personal history with humans and other favoured races, one that isn't likely to be swept under the rug with a cheery, "Oh, don't mind him, love -- that's just his way."

Redcloak turned his back on her because he had other matters needing his attention, even before he'd finished killing the other Azurite clerics. If he wasn't just pranking them with the elemental left to kill them, there's no reason to believe he's got a different standard in mind for Tsukiko.


Soon's powers are tied to the Gate.

Xykon's powers are tied to his phylactery, but he doesn't need to stay within sight of Redcloak. You've read Start of Darkness, so you know that there were at least a few miles between them at one point.


He has been standing guard for 50 years and he is presumed to still be a secret. He has clearly not been used in any of the many emergencies that he could have been during that period.

None of which involved an attempt to capture the city and the Gate. Soon had all records of the Gates' existence purged decades ago for a reason, and this measure proved adequate until Redcloak and Xykon came along. Until then, there was no need to reveal the secret, and Soon was able to remain on indefinite standby.

Not so easy to keep the secret if Soon is out wandering the countryside to fight every evil he can find, rather than focusing on the core of his oath. It leads to questions.


And some of them are bound to have been of some danger to the Gate. One way or another, he is not at liberty to just roam the city.

It's not a question of liberty, but of necessity. If he doesn't destroy the army now, the threat remains. The only danger that the hobgoblins can offer to the Gate that won't give Soon an hour or two to slaughter a few hundred of them before checking back (and then going out for another hour or two of mayhem) is to destroy it -- which, according to Soon, is acceptable as a means of keeping the Gate out of the hands of an enemy.


AgainIf they could have held the city, the amount of personal advantage has to be massive.

Not when you calculate the cost in terms of personnel lost. Better to have Hinjo pay that cost, leaving him at a disadvantage against them.


With a few exceptions, the wealth they could carry away would be a small fraction of their possessions. Houses don't move, and the nobles would have big expensive ones.

Kubota could easily purchase a score of mansions in exchange for the magic items he's wearing. Welcome to the spell-based economy of an adventurer-focused game.


It's most unlikely the merchants, particularly those who had a lot of liens on the nobles, would stay in any emergencies that the nobles would flee from.

If the choice is between taking your chances in the countryside or behind walls and an army when your livelihood is based on goods, rather than real estate, you might. They might not have military training, but they're capable of hiring people with it.


The only reason they would not leave would be a lack of means, which also means small scale and a lack of contact with the noble class.

Contact with the noble class has often put a merchant in more danger from the nobles than would otherwise be the case.


It's Moreover, the distinction between noble and merchant is artificial.

As artificial as that between king and commoner, yet the distinction still exists.


But these holdings are already lost to the noble, at least until Xykon leaves.

Since the assumption was that he'd simply take what he wanted, according to what they'd been told by Hinjo, the threat was considered comparable to that of a hurricane.


A scattered army is rapidly dying. One isolated soldier keeps on getting attacked by ten.Not if the one finds a strong defensive position. Three men on a bridge isn't the best example, but thirty in a tower have been known to hold out for days -- and sapping the tower tends to take a high toll on the attacker as well.


Soon is one of those who invented that silly paladin oath. He is not one to be stretching meanings.

There's no stretch required to allow him to purge the city of an army that came to seize control of the Gate he's sworn to protect. The longer they stay, the more attention they draw, which is just what someone trying to keep the Gates a secret doesn't want.


And our pictures of ghosts and guardians are replete with cases of the ghost being limited to a very small area, very powerful within it, but unable to leave.

Not every case involving a ghost that's never left an area is one in which the spirit is restricted to that area. It can sometimes be the case even within the D&D rules, but it's not the default assumption even for those fulfilling a guardian role, even if they've never had cause to leave the throne room before.

Nevertheless, Soon limited his intervention to acting only once every other available resource to defend the gate has been exhausted. Whether the limit is a self-imposed precautionary measure or a condition of being able to defend the gate beyond death isn't stated, but the limit has been lifted. As long as the oath is being actively fulfilled, there is no reason to impose another one.


It's certainly possible in the short run [which is most of what we are interested in], but the hobgoblins have lots of clerics...

In strip #416, Redcloak notes that Azure City has more mid- and low- level casters, despite the fact that the invaders outnumber the defenders by a three to one margin. Seems like a low number.


...and Redcloak is both a very valuable magic item and the god's #1 project. Ordering them to rescue and raise him is not at all unreasonable.

It might not be unreasonable, but the evidence suggests that it's never been attempted for any of Redcloak's predecessors as either hobgoblin commander or Bear of the Crimson Mantle. Besides, evil societies aren't big on letting dead leaders get in the way of the competition for top spot.


They can overrun them, rather automatically if they charge in numbers as they should.

Creatures with the incorporeal subtype "cannot take any action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions," according to the SRD.

A defender always has the option to try to block an overrun attempt (unless the attacker has the Improved Overrun feat, in which case the defender has no choice but to block the attempt). If the attacker succeeds in the overrun attempt, the defender falls prone. Being knocked prone in this fashion qualfies as as being moved or manipulated -- and therefore cannot be attempted against an incorporeal opponent.

Maybe the hobgoblin army has a few hundred ninja they can afford to throw away on the effort, some of whom might actually be able to make a DC 20 Tumble check. That works great for getting in, but Redcloak will count as a medium load for anyone with with less than 18 Strength, possibly more, reducing speed and thus making Tumbling impossible. (Ordinarily, a goblin would weigh a lot less, but Redcloak is shown to equal in height to your average hobgoblin and taller than a dwarf. I haven't even factored armor in and am probably erring on the side of a severely undernourished weight for someone that tall.) So much for getting out.


Assuming Soon still has spell casting abilities. It seems reasonable that he does, but we see none of the martyrs casting spells, and some of them are almost pure spellcasters.

None of the martyrs we see fighting Xykon and Redcloak would have been pure spellcasters. All of the ones we see in strips #459 and #461 are wielding swords. Perhaps Xykon destroyed them all first, or maybe they weren't restored to non-undeath with the rest. Strip #447 shows only five among the group that first stood against Xykon in the throne room, none of whom are seen to rise with the rally in #449.


Of course this argument works both ways. Your argument is heavily based on Soon being a world shaking superman who can do most anything.

That sounds about right. He's an incorporeal epic level paladin, one of the six heroes that sealed away a world-ending threat for several decades, then arranged to destroy all but one source of knowledge on the rifts -- despite the fact that one of them happened to appear floating above a city.

This does not mean he can be everywhere all the time, but he's more than capable of dealing with a direct threat to the city in which his Gate lies, if that's what he needs to do to protect this specific Gate.


But the very fact he is kept secret and needs boosting argues against this.

Imagine that the Ghost of Soon continued to stalk the streets of Azure City after his death, righting wrongs wherever he found them. Sooner or later, people will start asking what it will take to put his spectre to rest, and it's only a matter of time before someone asks a god willing to provide the answer.

As for the boosting, that's more for the benefit of others that have sworn to uphold the same oath. This is a privilege they have earned, and it is properly lawful and good to share this duty with them. Strength in numbers proved to have some value when it came to having the Sapphire Guard deal with high level characters, but it's less effective for dealing with an epic level incorporeal paladin whose immune to mind-controlling effects.


He can protect the gate. The city will have to defend itself.

This is one of those times when the interests of the city and the gate coincide. Leaving the city in the hands of a hobgoblin army means leaving the Gate within catapult range.


And by the evidence at hand, they did.

At most, we've seen between four and eight hobgoblin clerics (depending on whether we've seen the same clerics multiple times), never more than two in one place, two of whom are now dead. There are probably more clerics than we've seen, but nothing to indicate that these weren't the most prominent of the lot. We saw Redcloak, a 15th+ level cleric, turn no more than five martyrs at a time and can see that he performed no less than four turning checks, which suggests that the martyrs had an average of 4 levels each.

It's also worth noting that Redcloak asked the other cleric that entered the throne room with him if he had any uses of Rebuke Undead left, which suggests that clerics had been expected to use the power to bolster undead troops. Even assuming they didn't, we're still looking at a group of clerics that can each expect to drive away no more than two martyrs at a time on a successful turn check, for no more than a minute each time. Since they'll be dealing with a group of opponents whose Charisma averages higher than their own and (at least some of) who are capable of bolstering each other against turning checks (a tactic that served little purpose against someone of Redcloak's level, but is more than adequate against a mid-level cleric) and who can fly, the Dark One can expect high losses among his priesthood.


We still get back to the basic, that there is no reason to think they can wander any serious distance from the Gate.

Xykon's phylactery gives us more than enough reason to believe otherwise. I also refuse to believe that the oath's conditions would prohibit the defenders from being able to do anything against a catapult bombardment.

[David Argall]

A loss of morale is perfectly capable of destroying a completely won position.
You are talking here of not just a loss of morale, but wildscale panic where the entire army just runs.



Soon was diplomatic about it, but he consistently corrected every one of Miko's mistakes.
No. He merely answered her questions. He, for example, did not tell her she had a delusion of being special.



They will also eagerly sacrifice themselves to save their supreme commander, and we've yet to see them make any attempt on his life or status since his initiation ceremony.
You are being inconsistent here. You are elsewhere saying they would not try anything special.


In this world, hobgoblins have a very personal history with humans and other favoured races, one that isn't likely to be swept under the rug with a cheery, "Oh, don't mind him, love -- that's just his way."
But that is what they did with Xykon. The assumption they would not do the same with a powerful human who can be useful simply falls.


Redcloak turned his back on her because he had other matters needing his attention, even before he'd finished killing the other Azurite clerics.
Turning your back on an enemy is just not done.
We are talking from the view of underlings. They don't see Redcloak trying to kill what should be a powerful foe. So the conclusion is that they should explore relations with her, not attack.



Xykon's powers are tied to his phylactery, but he doesn't need to stay within sight of Redcloak.
That the lich does not have to stay near a phylactery, and often doesn't, is a given in the rules of D&D. That a guardian creature stays near the thing guarded is also a standard of our ethos. You are comparing apples and oranges.


None of which involved an attempt to capture the city and the Gate.
None of which we know about. And in fact we know about zero about Azure City history. What we do know suggests a number of "threats" to the Gate. Assassination attempts have been fairly common, and we can reasonably assume that some could have resulted in a city ruler unacceptable to the paladins.
So there were times when Soon could have defended the Gate by defending others, which it seems he did not do.



Not so easy to keep the secret if Soon is out wandering the countryside to fight every evil he can find, rather than focusing on the core of his oath. It leads to questions.
Which of course leads to the conclusion he not only doesn't but can't.



It's not a question of liberty, but of necessity. If he doesn't destroy the army now, the threat remains.
This is the paladin who instilled that "Keep the Oath at all costs" mentality on the paladins, the paladins would would rather depose Shojo than investigate danger to the other gates. He is not going to be persuaded by pragmatic arguments. He is there to guard the Gate, period. Not to distort the oath to do something else. Just to guard the Gate.


Not when you calculate the cost in terms of personnel lost. Better to have Hinjo pay that cost, leaving him at a disadvantage against them.
This is highly speculative. There are very large losses for the nobles, and not all of them want to beat Hinjo. Only one of them can become the ruler, and so all the others are lacking this motive.


Kubota could easily purchase a score of mansions in exchange for the magic items he's wearing. Welcome to the spell-based economy of an adventurer-focused game.
And if we follow the logic of that, the Kubota mansion[s] were not generic mansions. The very nature of nobles means there would be an "arms race" to have the biggest and most ostentacious mansion, among other things. He has +5 armor, but he also has a +5 birdbath/shrine/something he can display as proof of how superior he is.



If the choice is between taking your chances in the countryside or behind walls and an army
That was not the choice. They too had the option of taking space on a ship, and likely would have. So their survival rate is apt to be high.



Contact with the noble class has often put a merchant in more danger from the nobles than would otherwise be the case.
Here is a good point to quote W&X "Most of the workers and craftsmen in the city actually work for one of the noble houses; even seemingly independent businesses are usually owned by a noble." So the losses to the merchant class are losses to the noble class as well. The idea there is a large merchant class not part of the nobility is incorrect. [Presumably the system is that the rising merchant can buy himself a title and become a noble, or he marries his children into the nobility.]



Not if the one finds a strong defensive position. Three men on a bridge isn't the best example, but thirty in a tower have been known to hold out for days -- and sapping the tower tends to take a high toll on the attacker as well.
And where is the evidence they found such a position? Or were at all interested in holding it? We have them running, trying to find places to hide, or just get out of the city.


There's no stretch required to allow him to purge the city of an army that came to seize control of the Gate he's sworn to protect.
Every step outside the throne room is a stretch. He is there to guard the Gate. He is known to reject proactive definitions in cases like this. He is only going to guard the gate.



Not every case...
Which is much the same as saying it is the assumed case.


Nevertheless, Soon limited his intervention to acting only once every other available resource to defend the gate has been exhausted. Whether the limit is a self-imposed precautionary measure or a condition of being able to defend the gate beyond death isn't stated, but the limit has been lifted. As long as the oath is being actively fulfilled, there is no reason to impose another one.
But the very fact he limited his intervention means there are other limits. He can only act in limited circumstances and ways.



In strip #416, Redcloak notes that Azure City has more mid- and low- level casters, despite the fact that the invaders outnumber the defenders by a three to one margin. Seems like a low number.
Azure City had 314 clerics able to turn undead. So the hobgoblins can easily have 200, which is plenty for our purposes.


It might not be unreasonable, but the evidence suggests that it's never been attempted for any of Redcloak's predecessors as either hobgoblin commander or Bear of the Crimson Mantle. Besides, evil societies aren't big on letting dead leaders get in the way of the competition for top spot.
The Redcloak itself is ultra valuable magic. Now, we might see some new leader decide he ought to be the new Redcloak, but they still need to get the cloak out of the throne room, and the easiest way to do that is remove Redcloak's body as well.


Creatures with the incorporeal subtype "cannot take any action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions," according to the SRD.

A defender always has the option to try to block an overrun attempt (unless the attacker has the Improved Overrun feat, in which case the defender has no choice but to block the attempt). If the attacker succeeds in the overrun attempt, the defender falls prone. Being knocked prone in this fashion qualfies as as being moved or manipulated -- and therefore cannot be attempted against an incorporeal opponent.
This is called twisting the rules. The rather obvious meaning here is that our incorporeal defender continues to stand there, but his opponent simply passes thru him.


None of the martyrs we see fighting Xykon and Redcloak would have been pure spellcasters. All of the ones we see in strips #459 and #461 are wielding swords. Perhaps Xykon destroyed them all first, or maybe they weren't restored to non-undeath with the rest.
Rather weak speculation. They were paladins in good standing by definition, and the presence of O-Chul shows us no reason to think that having additional classes was any sort of limit on those allowed to rise.



This does not mean he can be everywhere all the time, but he's more than capable of dealing with a direct threat to the city in which his Gate lies, if that's what he needs to do to protect this specific Gate.
Soon is there to protect the gate, not the city, and the interconnection does not give him free rein to do anything beyond directly protect the gate.



Leaving the city in the hands of a hobgoblin army means leaving the Gate within catapult range.
Like this is unusual in instructions to guardians?


At most, we've seen between four and eight hobgoblin clerics
And we have seen, at a range close enough to identify a cleric, perhaps a few hundred of the hobgoblins. So the 4-8 clerics we see is consistent with a total of 400-800 clerics in the full army.



Xykon's phylactery gives us more than enough reason to believe otherwise. I also refuse to believe that the oath's conditions would prohibit the defenders from being able to do anything against a catapult bombardment.
In fact, it is almost classic that it fails to. Our fiction hero often finds some aid or protection like Soon, but finds it can only help in certain limited ways, which require the hero to carry on. The help is not able to save the day.

[Shatteredtower]

I'm afraid this is going to be very long. I've tried several times to trim it back, but this is as much as I've been able to condense it and still address the points I'd wish to.


You are talking here of not just a loss of morale, but wildscale panic where the entire army just runs.

An entirely reasonable response to the appearance of an unstoppable hobgoblin-killing machine.


No. He merely answered her questions. He, for example, did not tell her she had a delusion of being special.

What delusion? She was special.


You are being inconsistent here. You are elsewhere saying they would not try anything special.

There's a difference between giving your life to save that of a living commander and giving it to retrieve the body of a dead one. Loyalty unto death, but not beyond it.


But that is what they did with Xykon.

Their supreme leader vouched for him, while he publically snubbed, discarded, and attempted to kill Tsukiko. Also, Redcloak originally had to be talked into recruiting Xykon way back when they first met, and he was dispatching a number of Redcloak's enemy's at the time. The hobgoblin impression of Tsukiko would be of someone their leader would sooner have seen dead.


Turning your back on an enemy is just not done.

If you can back it up -- and Redcloak can -- such displays of contempt are the clearest means of expressing your dominance over an opponent to both the opponent and anyone watching you.


We are talking from the view of underlings. They don't see Redcloak trying to kill what should be a powerful foe.

A blade barrier thrown up in front of her, a human-slaughtering elemental left behind to take care of her, and you claim there's no attempt to kill her. Sure, he could have put more effort into it, but underestimating her ability to survive doesn't change the fact that he'd made the attempt while on his way to something more important.


That the lich does not have to stay near a phylactery, and often doesn't, is a given in the rules of D&D. That a guardian creature stays near the thing guarded is also a standard of our ethos. You are comparing apples and oranges.

No, apples and apples. In both cases, it's a poor idea to wander far from the item that needs protecting, but neither actually requires staying within sight of it. It doesn't matter it's a matter of self-preservation or a sworn oath: a good idea and a requirement aren't the same thing.


None of which we know about.

Since there was plenty of time and reason to mention them, the most likely conclusion is that there were none.


What we do know suggests a number of "threats" to the Gate.

Back before it was a gate, yes.. The assassination attempts you've mentioned were just politics and the affairs of the living, not of the Gate. The battle, however, was fought for its control. Winning the battle protects the Gate: that it also frees the city from hobgoblin tyranny is incidental.


So there were times when Soon could have defended the Gate by defending others, which it seems he did not do.

No, there may or may not have been times that Soon could have defended the Gate by defending others, but we were not shown such events or whether or not Soon intervened. Big difference.


Which of course leads to the conclusion he not only doesn't but can't.

Not at all. Again, there is a difference between a bad idea and a requirement.


This is the paladin who instilled that "Keep the Oath at all costs" mentality on the paladins, the paladins would would rather depose Shojo than investigate danger to the other gates.

We've no evidence of that. In War and XPs, the Giant wrote:

"Shojo could have come to the paladins when Dorukan's Gate was destroyed and asked them to terminate Soon's Oath to not interfere, but he didn't."

He could have done that even sooner, after Lirian's Gate was destroyed. They'd have had less reason to agree to the request at that time, but it would have lent weight to having the request repeated after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed. In either case, the Giant's statement implies that Shojo went behind the backs of the paladins because he wanted to do so, not because it was necessary.


He is not going to be persuaded by pragmatic arguments.

If that was true, he'd never have agreed to Serini's compromise in strip #277, a very pragmatic resolution to a difference in principles and goals. It was Miko, not Soon, that declared, "A paladin never compromises," which is one reason she wasn't popular with the rest of the Sapphire Guard. (We even saw Hinjo compromise with Belkar in strip #420, even though he'd held all of the cards.)


He is there to guard the Gate, period. Not to distort the oath to do something else. Just to guard the Gate.

Breaking the force brought to seize the Gate, so that it can no longer hope to come within catapult range of it, is guarding the Gate. Being forbidden from doing so means being unable to protect the Gate at all.

To put things as Lien would: "Good, not stupid."


There are very large losses for the nobles, and not all of them want to beat Hinjo.

Then perhaps not all of them left. But let's see what Hinjo has to say about what this will cost the nobles, back in strip #414:

"Of course, men like Kubota don't care if the city falls or not, as long as he comes out of it with his power intact."

He is somewhat politically naive for his position, but all appearances to date indicate that this assessment was entirely correct.


Only one of them can become the ruler, and so all the others are lacking this motive.

After we eliminate all who seek to be that "one" and who'd want "their guy" to be that "one", there aren't many left without motive.


And if we follow the logic of that, the Kubota mansion[s] were not generic mansions. The very nature of nobles means there would be an "arms race" to have the biggest and most ostentacious mansion, among other things. He has +5 armor, but he also has a +5 birdbath/shrine/something he can display as proof of how superior he is.

"Keeping up with the Joneses," is more of a middle class vanity. Kubota's interest is in personal power, as Hinjo noted, not in trivial displays of such power.


That was not the choice.

It is if they merchandise matters to them. With Hinjo commandeering every private ship he could (strip #414 again), cargo space was quite limited at the time.


And where is the evidence they found such a position?

There isn't any, though the events of strip #463 were a contributing factor that would have been avoided if Roy hadn't made that jump back in #429. Strip #467 demonstrates that such positions could exist, however.


Or were at all interested in holding it?

I see a lot of helmeted figures in #463 that would probably be very interested in such a thing. They'd probably prefer to be anywhere but in battle at all, but it's still preferable to their present predicament.


We have them running, trying to find places to hide, or just get out of the city.

Strip #463 offers two additional possibilities that are equally likely: a) attempting to surrender, b) fighting to the last against hopeless odds.


Every step outside the throne room is a stretch. He is there to guard the Gate. He is known to reject proactive definitions in cases like this. He is only going to guard the gate.

He's not a machine. He is a last resort, but now that it's in play, he has to make it count for all he can. Stopping at the edge of the throne room, or even the edge of the palace, isn't doing that.


Which is much the same as saying it is the assumed case.

Only if it's logical to assume that most cans will contain orange juice if I tell you, "Not every can contains orange juice."


But the very fact he limited his intervention means there are other limits.

Showing that a fish can't walk doesn't prove it's unable to swim, however.


He can only act in limited circumstances and ways.

True. He cannot handle physical objects. His ability to influence affairs in the living world requires that he defend the Gate, and that influence passes with the Gate's disappearance.

We know that he'd have been justified in doing so the moment Miko raised her sword to execute Shojo, as she came within inches of destroying that Gate. It was a clear threat, but Soon didn't interevene. If he was prohibited from stopping someone from destroying it with a sword in full view of witnesses, how is he meaningful able to protect the Gate? It's more likely that he was caught by surprise the same way Hinjo and Roy were.

In War and XPs, there's something significant in one of the bonus strips:

#310b suggest that Soon is capable of making his displeasure concerning Eugene's presence known to Shojo, even though it has nothing to do with his oath. Eugene poses no threat to the Gate. As a bound spirit, he could be compelled to help defend it against the lich he'd sworn to defeat with his full set of epic level spellcasting powers, a privilege he hasn't otherwise had.

He otherwise keeps his presence a secret until all seems lost, but there's no reason to assume that this must be anything other than a strategic decision.


Azure City had 314 clerics able to turn undead. So the hobgoblins can easily have 200, which is plenty for our purposes.

Even assuming two hundred mid to low level clerics are available, it's still left a group that can't do more than turn the ghost-martyrs of mid-level paladins, some of whom are capable of bolstering themselves and their allies no less than four times per day, even on a successful check. They can't expect to turn those holding the throne room from what we've been shown, and the odds of them being able to coordinate efforts to fight the paladins out on the streets from within an army of 20,000 hobgoblins is very unlikely.


The Redcloak itself is ultra valuable magic.

And yet the paladins that killed its previous owner abandoned it on the field of battle, in spite the fact that they were sent to kill its bearer. Miko recognized it on sight, so it's unlikely that earlier members of the Sapphire Guard would have been kept unaware of its significance. We don't have any reason to believe that hobgoblins are aware of its power, since they've never referred to it. The priest Redcloak killed before becoming declared supreme leader (strip #149) didn't seem to afford it any significance, and the actual surpreme leader appears to have been more impressed by the casting of slay living.

Incidentally, the easiest way to get the cloak out of the room is the same way Redcloak got it in the first place: by taking it off the body of the original wearer and getting out of there, leaving Xykon's phylactery behind.


The rather obvious meaning here is that our incorporeal defender continues to stand there, but his opponent simply passes thru him.

If this claim was correct, then there would be no need to make an overrun attempt in the first place -- you'd simply walk through the square occupied by an incorporeal creature, incurring an attack of opportunity. Since you can't do that by the rules either, you don't get to change what the rules say or mean when it comes to overrun attempts.


Rather weak speculation.

Not one of them appears among the shots we see of the ghost-martyrs. It does not mean that they never rose with the others, but it is a possibility. I did not assign it greater value than the possibility that Xykon has already eliminated them, but the fact remains that we don't see them. It seems unlikely that they all cast greater invisibility on themselves, since it would have been a more useful tactic at the start of the fight. That leaves the possibility that they left the throne room to deal with the other hobgoblin forces. I find that one unlikely, though, because there was an immediate threat active in the throne room. Nevertheless, the fact remains that we never see them among the risen ghost martyrs, and we're given a very generous view of the battle for the throne room.


They were paladins in good standing by definition, and the presence of O-Chul shows us no reason to think that having additional classes was any sort of limit on those allowed to rise.

O-Chul didn't rise either, you'll notice. Again, please remember that I never claimed that their absence was proof that they didn't rise, even though we don't even see a single one of them in the penultimate panel of strip #449, the one in which featuring at least forty individual ghost-martyrs. Compare that to the image at the end of #447, with over 40 living defenders shown, 4 of those clearly dressed in blue robes and with hands glowing with spell energy (the hand of a fifth is also displaying such energy).

Despite what Hinjo tells us, the fact remains that we don't see these primary spellcasters rise, which suggests that they might not have been paladins at all. They may have risen with the rest, but there's no evidence of it at all within the fourteen panels (in strips #449, 459, and 461) that display any ghost-martyr other than Soon.


Soon is there to protect the gate, not the city, and the interconnection does not give him free rein to do anything beyond directly protect the gate.

"Directly" has not been demonstrated. The fact is that the Gate has not been protected until the army brought to seize it (and the city) has been driven off. It's a happy coincidence that this contributes to the defense of the city.


Like this is unusual in instructions to guardians?

Automatons, yes. Soon is not an automaton. He is also not a moron, so why assume that the conditions on his oath would be idiotic?


In fact, it is almost classic that it fails to. Our fiction hero often finds some aid or protection like Soon, but finds it can only help in certain limited ways, which require the hero to carry on. The help is not able to save the day.

That offers no useful argument. Yes, the help did not save the day within the narrative, but we're not discussing what happened within the narrative. You might as well claim, "Well, if Roy hadn't thrown Xykon into the Gate, something else would have let the Order win the day," or, "If Roy hadn't gone back to rescue the party from the bandits, something else would have saved them because otherwise, the story would have ended."

The help didn't save the day because Roy and his party chose Evil over Good, resulting in a paladin's breakdown. It was a consequence of their actions. This does not make them the wrong actions -- at least as far as those performed by Roy and company -- but it's still a consequence, even if it would probably have happened eventually for some other reason. The narrative therefore didn't require any sort of Stupidity Clause in Soon's Oath, which prevents even that (poor) literary justification for including one.

[David Argall]

An entirely reasonable response to the appearance of an unstoppable hobgoblin-killing machine.
Which is probably the basic point. You essentially want to say that Soon was entirely able to just wipe out the entire hobgoblin army by himself, and that nothing was stopping him. But that just does not fit the story.


What delusion? She was special.
Not within the meaning she gave it. She was just another 16th? level paladin, not the one with a special mission from on high.


There's a difference between giving your life to save that of a living commander and giving it to retrieve the body of a dead one. Loyalty unto death, but not beyond it.
A difference when you can't expect to revive the dead commander. Since the hobgoblins are aware of Raise Dead, the dead commander is in many respects merely seriously ill.


The hobgoblin impression of Tsukiko would be of someone their leader would sooner have seen dead.
Which is of no concern to whoever replaces him. Tsukiko is somebody who might be a useful ally, and who is dangerous to attack. Clearly, you don't just casually attack somebody like that. You may eventually, but first you see if some deal can be arranged.


If you can back it up -- and Redcloak can -- such displays of contempt are the clearest means of expressing your dominance over an opponent to both the opponent and anyone watching you.
You make such displays of contempt at your "friends". Enemies are for killing.


A blade barrier thrown up in front of her, a human-slaughtering elemental left behind to take care of her, and you claim there's no attempt to kill her.
There is no attempt that labels her as an enemy that some future hobgoblin is under orders to attack. Rather the reverse. You use sneaky methods like this with people you can't attack openly.


No, apples and apples. In both cases, it's a poor idea to wander far from the item that needs protecting, but neither actually requires staying within sight of it. It doesn't matter it's a matter of self-preservation or a sworn oath: a good idea and a requirement aren't the same thing.
Apples and oranges. Our lich can obviously put the phylactery anyway in the world and just leave it there, depending on it being hidden. In fact, that is a common tactic. If it is anywhere near him, he risks that whatever destroys him also destroys his hidey-hole.

Our guard does not have this option of just leaving and wandering away. Our image of a guard is somebody standing right there, a foot away from whatever is guarded. We do not envision the guard as doing his job unless he is still in the same "room".


Since there was plenty of time and reason to mention them, the most likely conclusion is that there were none.
There was absolutely no reason to mention them. They happened outside the story. Some of them would have happened before Roy was even born. Others long before he arrived in the city. Our story is not a complete record and can't be. Silence does not mean something didn't happen.


Back before it was a gate, yes.. The assassination attempts you've mentioned were just politics and the affairs of the living, not of the Gate. The battle, however, was fought for its control. Winning the battle protects the Gate: that it also frees the city from hobgoblin tyranny is incidental.
Which is the same reasoning that says Soon is limited to the throne room. Keeping Shojo in charge presumably helped defend the Gate, but Soon did not try to save Shojo. There are simply ways of defending the gate that are too indirect for Soon to act on.


No, there may or may not have been times that Soon could have defended the Gate by defending others, but we were not shown such events or whether or not Soon intervened. Big difference.
We know he didn't intervene.


Not at all. Again, there is a difference between a bad idea and a requirement.
We have 50 years in which it was always a bad idea? At no time did Soon think it was not a bad idea? That sounds reasonable? A requirement seems a whole lot more likely.


In War and XPs, the Giant wrote:

"Shojo could have come to the paladins when Dorukan's Gate was destroyed and asked them to terminate Soon's Oath to not interfere, but he didn't."

the Giant's statement implies that Shojo went behind the backs of the paladins because he wanted to do so, not because it was necessary.
Now "implies" is already a weak standard of evidence. But these are merely the words of the writer, who is in the last analysis merely another reader. He can be wrong about what the story says. [Note in this respect his denial that he had ever shown V to have a good alignment, a point he quickly had to backtrack on when #11 was pointed out to him.]
Where do we see any evidence in the strip that the paladins would have responed favorably to such a suggestion?



If that was true, he'd never have agreed to Serini's compromise in strip #277, a very pragmatic resolution to a difference in principles and goals. It was Miko, not Soon, that declared, "A paladin never compromises,"
And Soon said the honor of a paladin was unbreakable. A standard aspect of honor is keeping your word. We can note that the scribble comics describe Soon as a very much stick up ass paladin.


(We even saw Hinjo compromise with Belkar in strip #420, even though he'd held all of the cards.)
Not much of a compromise. He agreed to do what he was not legally forbidden, and on an [mistaken] assumption Belkar had reformed.


Breaking the force brought to seize the Gate, so that it can no longer hope to come within catapult range of it, is guarding the Gate. Being forbidden from doing so means being unable to protect the Gate at all.


To put things as Lien would: "Good, not stupid."
That's Lien. In fact, Hinjo is frequently lawful stupid, and stupidity is routinely present in just about everyone in the story.




"Keeping up with the Joneses," is more of a middle class vanity. Kubota's interest is in personal power, as Hinjo noted, not in trivial displays of such power.
Keeping up with the Jones extends all the way to #1. And if Kubota is interested in personal power, he must be interested in displaying it.


It is if they merchandise matters to them. With Hinjo commandeering every private ship he could (strip #414 again), cargo space was quite limited at the time.
Getting the cargo out of the city would be a goal, but for the merchant, staying to defend it is not an option. If he can't move the cargo, he moves himself.


There isn't any, though the events of strip #463 were a contributing factor that would have been avoided if Roy hadn't made that jump back in #429. Strip #467 demonstrates that such positions could exist, however.
And 467 shows the party abandoning it and trying to sneak away. And these are the brave heros. So our random grunts are not going to be looking for heroic places for a last stand. They are just running.


I see a lot of helmeted figures in #463 that would probably be very interested in such a thing. They'd probably prefer to be anywhere but in battle at all, but it's still preferable to their present predicament.
which means they are militarily useless.


Strip #463 offers two additional possibilities that are equally likely: a) attempting to surrender, b) fighting to the last against hopeless odds.
A) of course makes them worthless.
B) This is an option they are being forced into, and they are dying rapidly. This is still no contribution to an army that will rescue the city.


He's not a machine. He is a last resort, but now that it's in play, he has to make it count for all he can. Stopping at the edge of the throne room, or even the edge of the palace, isn't doing that.
In the current situation, it isn't doing that in some respects. Recall here he is beating Xykon and Redcloak.

Recall here that Soon is human. He is limited. It is amazing that he is able to manifest as a spirit at all. Giving him the power to mow down armies is an attack on our will to believe.



Only if it's logical to assume that most cans will contain orange juice if I tell you, "Not every can contains orange juice."
The customer comes yelling into the store "I bought a case of apple juice and it turns out to be orange juice."
"Well, not every can..."

You figure a whole lot of them are orange juice. In fact you would not be shocked to find there was only one can of non-orange juice.


Showing that a fish can't walk doesn't prove it's unable to swim, however.
We don't know Soon is a "fish" here. He is some homebrew spirit type.


It's more likely that he was caught by surprise the same way Hinjo and Roy were.
Certainly possible, but so? We already know he can manifest in the throne room.

[QUOTE=Shatteredtower;5331997]#310b suggest that Soon is capable of making his displeasure concerning Eugene's presence known to Shojo, even though it has nothing to do with his oath. Eugene poses no threat to the Gate. As a bound spirit, he could be compelled to help defend it against the lich he'd sworn to defeat with his full set of epic level spellcasting powers, a privilege he hasn't otherwise had.
Certainly a possibility that the reference is to Soon, but the idea has some problems too. This means that Soon knew of Shojo's entire plot. So either Soon was helpless to stop him, or he didn't really object. But if he didn't really object, then there should be no serious problem in convincing the paladins to allow investigate the other gates. But we know there were problems. So we again assume that Soon was limited in what he can do.
Now your mention that Eugene could be used as defense works against you. Why is Soon insisting he be expelled? That is consistent with overconfidence, that he thinks he does not need the help. He thinks he can indulge his distaste for a CG guardian companion because he will "not really" be a useful additional guard.



He otherwise keeps his presence a secret until all seems lost, but there's no reason to assume that this must be anything other than a strategic decision.
There is the fact he spent 50 years doing nothing.


Even assuming two hundred mid to low level clerics are available, it's...
...another example of your trying to load the dice. There were no hob clerics able to case 3rd level spells, then there were only a handful, and now just a couple hundred... In essence you are saying that Soon can do anything he can't be shown to not be able to do, while unless it is flat out definite, the hobgoblins are nothing.
Look, we are being shown a rout. The idea that the defense had this reserve "army" that could just run thru the attackers is just absurd. The widespread idea that destroying the gate was a thinkable idea just rejects this idea. If the martyrs can leave the throne room, the strategy would be for them to die and then let Soon defend the gate itself while the others attacked the army. Instead they all assume they have no other goal than defending the Gate.


And yet the paladins that killed its previous owner abandoned it on the field of battle, in spite the fact that they were sent to kill its bearer.
Which suggests they had no idea of its significance. They presumably deemed it merely a uniform, not a piece of powerful magic.


We don't have any reason to believe that hobgoblins are aware of its power, since they've never referred to it.
We don't see the hobgoblins in excess of 99% of their time, so their lack of referring to it is not too meaningful. However, the clerics pray to the Dark One, the maker of the Redcloak, and who should have no problem clueing them in.



the easiest way to get the cloak out of the room is the same way Redcloak got it in the first place: by taking it off the body of the original wearer and getting out of there, leaving Xykon's phylactery behind.
Redcloak was told to put it on right away. The option of carrying off the body was not available, and since he didn't have a few dozen assistants, not a good one anyway. But if we flood the throne room with 50+ grunts and each grabs a limb or something, we get the body out of there faster and more definitely than if we try to take it off and leave the one carrying it as a prime target for an unfriendly Soon.


If this claim was correct, then there would be no need to make an overrun attempt in the first place -- you'd simply walk through the square occupied by an incorporeal creature, incurring an attack of opportunity. Since you can't do that by the rules either, you don't get to change what the rules say or mean when it comes to overrun attempts.
Which is more of the same "logic" that is trying to prove the PC can't do what it obviously could do. The incorpeal walks thru walls, and so "walls" can walk thru them.


Not one of them appears among the shots we see of the ghost-martyrs. That leaves the possibility that they left the throne room to deal with the other hobgoblin forces.
Given that Hobgoblins are shown standing around the entrance, and not being attacked by the martyrs, there is just about zero chance they left it.



O-Chul didn't rise either, you'll notice.
O-Chul didn't die either.



Despite what Hinjo tells us, the fact remains that we don't see these primary spellcasters rise, which suggests that they might not have been paladins at all.
But this is directly rejecting what is told us, without reason to do so. If we are going to be so free with our evidence, we can "prove" anything, and nothing.


They may have risen with the rest, but there's no evidence of it at all within the fourteen panels (in strips #449, 459, and 461) that display any ghost-martyr other than Soon.
Which suggests we may simply have an art error.


"Directly" has not been demonstrated. The fact is that the Gate has not been protected until the army brought to seize it (and the city) has been driven off. It's a happy coincidence that this contributes to the defense of the city.
Again, this is simply making Soon too much of a superman.


Automatons, yes. Soon is not an automaton. He is also not a moron, so why assume that the conditions on his oath would be idiotic?
Because that is a routine part of literary oaths. Characters constantly take oaths that force them to do stupid things. In OOTS, we have Eugene, obviously quite intelligent, and taking a rather dubious oath.



That offers no useful argument. Yes, the help did not save the day within the narrative, but we're not discussing what happened within the narrative. You might as well claim, "Well, if Roy hadn't thrown Xykon into the Gate, something else would have let the Order win the day," or, "If Roy hadn't gone back to rescue the party from the bandits, something else would have saved them because otherwise, the story would have ended."
Which is simply true. All sorts of other things might have happened. But in all these cases, the help only has just enough ability to help, not enough to win. It is the hero's job to win thru.


The help didn't save the day because Roy and his party chose Evil over Good, resulting in a paladin's breakdown. It was a consequence of their actions. This does not make them the wrong actions -- at least as far as those performed by Roy and company -- but it's still a consequence, even if it would probably have happened eventually for some other reason. The narrative therefore didn't require any sort of Stupidity Clause in Soon's Oath, which prevents even that (poor) literary justification for including one.
I frankly don't follow your logic. Nor does it seem to follow the strip. While we can trace a line from the party actions to the destruction of the gate, we see no sign this is deem causual by the story. We should have something rubbing the reader's nose in this sort of cause and effect. Maybe a prophecy "The friend you reject will scatter you."

[hamishspence]

Enemies aren't always for killing: traditional vindictive evil "Whats the good of winning if the enemy isn't alive to know they've lost?"

[Shatteredtower]

Okay. Time to tackle the big post.


Which is probably the basic point. You essentially want to say that Soon was entirely able to just wipe out the entire hobgoblin army by himself, and that nothing was stopping him. But that just does not fit the story.

Irrelevant. We're not discussing what happened in the story. We're discussing might-have-beens, which are not required to give the heroes a key role. The story overrode this deus ex machina, but alternative possibilities are not required to do so.

As for Miko being "just another 16th? level paladin", name the other ones within the Sapphire Guard, or even one unaffiliated with her organization but active withing the setting.


Since the hobgoblins are aware of Raise Dead, the dead commander is in many respects merely seriously ill.

The General says you're wrong. The existence of the spell is less important than the fact that we've never seen a single goblin or hobgoblin cast it, despite having seen several important leaders die.


You make such displays of contempt at your "friends". Enemies are for killing.

So every other cleric he killed this way was also a "friend"? No, he merely underestimated her ability to overcome the death trap he'd left behind.


There is no attempt that labels her as an enemy that some future hobgoblin is under orders to attack. Rather the reverse. You use sneaky methods like this with people you can't attack openly.

What makes you think he can't openly attack her? Xykon wouldn't have cared. It's not like Redcloak was afraid of Tsukiko either. Other hobgoblins, sure, but they have nothing she wants that she just can't take, meaning she's got no incentive to help them or her former employer.


Our guard does not have this option of just leaving and wandering away. Our image of a guard is somebody standing right there, a foot away from whatever is guarded. We do not envision the guard as doing his job unless he is still in the same "room".

Using words like "our" and "we" when "I" is more accurate is dishonest.

The Sapphire Guard as a whole is sworn to defend -- or "guard", as you put it -- the Gate. Somehow, this role permits Miko to wander through foreign lands, gives Lien leeway to guard the docks, and Hinjo freedom enough to lead the forces of Azure City from the walls. Their image of a guard isn't of someone standing "a foot away" from whatever is guarded, so we've no cause to believe Soon is so limited.

Let's also consider the fact that Xykon has left his phylactery with a lower level character that he's made no special efforts to protect, and whom he considers only slightly less expendable than anyone else.


Silence does not mean something didn't happen.

Based on what we know, it is far more likely that nothing happened. Until now, Soon's presence remained a family secret, carried for three generations. It's much easier to keep a secret if you don't have to use it, and Soon has never had any need to intervene.


Which is the same reasoning that says Soon is limited to the throne room. Keeping Shojo in charge presumably helped defend the Gate, but Soon did not try to save Shojo. There are simply ways of defending the gate that are too indirect for Soon to act on.

Soon wasn't able to protect the Gate from Miko that time for the same reason he was unable to save it from her the second time, nothing more. It couldn't possibly be because he's forbidden to prevent an action that poses an immediate and direct threat to the Gate.

If Soon had been making appearances in the 50 years which the city saw only two rulers, in spite of its subtly warring nobles and the ninja they employ, you can be pretty sure the secret would have gotten out. A moment like Xykon's arrival was precisely the sort of thing Soon had kept his presence a secret for 50 years. Based on how poorly that played out for the lich, who played straight into Soon's hands, it was clearly a good idea for him to keep that secret for as long as possible. "They serve who also stand and wait," means that no, he didn't spend "50 years doing nothing."


Now "implies" is already a weak standard of evidence.

Not against a lack of counter-evidence.


But these are merely the words of the writer, who is in the last analysis merely another reader. He can be wrong about what the story says.

When the writer disagrees with us, it is almost certain that we are wrong, especially when the writer is making a self-evident statement. Shojo could have come forward, but preferred to work behind the backs of his paladins. You aren't entitled to the arrogance you've displayed here.


Where do we see any evidence in the strip that the paladins would have responed favorably to such a suggestion?

In the behaviour of such members as Hinjo, O-chul, and Lien. They might not have agreed unconditionally to Shojo's requests, but they're proven themselves anything but inflexible, unthinking slaves to their code of conduct -- why should it be any different for an oath under the circumstances? Before she found out he'd been deceiving her, even Miko was open to heeding her master's wishes.

Soon was never described as a stick-up-the-ass paladin, by the way. His more free-thinking companion was actually stating the view that all paladins are like that. The view may have been reinforced by how he and Soon interacted, but the fellow we saw defending his Gate and conversing with Miko does not bear out that description. A figure that would consider "technically" an adequate standard for success should also be capable of realizing that his word is less important than the reason for which it was given -- namely, to prevent meddling in one another's affairs. It was not intended to prevent attempts to warn each other of a threat, and most of the paladins we've seen, including Soon, don't seem the type that would allow it to do so.


In fact, Hinjo is frequently lawful stupid...

When? When he failed to heed good advice from people that disagreed with him or concede that people who'd disobeyed his orders were right to do so? Yes, he's made mistakes and sometimes tried too hard, but "stupid" wouldn't have listened. Remember, this is a man who'd sworn to defend a Gate beyond death. That he'd heed advice to flee, leaving the unsealed rift in enemy hands, for any reason, shows a level of sense and character rare in someone who'd have so much reason to be emotionally invested in a successful outcome.


And if Kubota is interested in personal power, he must be interested in displaying it.

By that reasonining, since a whale lives in the ocean, it must be able to breathe in water. "Must" is being used incorrectly in both cases -- and even "ought to" is unmerited.


Getting the cargo out of the city would be a goal, but for the merchant, staying to defend it is not an option. If he can't move the cargo, he moves himself.

Thus it hits the merchant harder than the land-owning nobles.


And 467 shows the party abandoning it and trying to sneak away. And these are the brave heros.

Who happen to possess the resources, talent, and opportunity to flee -- and incidentally also happens to serve a higher purpose. They also know that the main villains managed to survive the attempt to destroy them, and Haley listed that as a major reason for them to pack it in. When there's no longer anywhere to run, the average warrior has nothing better to do than find a good position to dig in. There is no evidence to prove the claim that, "Therefore, they are just running," though I've no doubt that some of the troops we're seeing would be trying to do so anyway. As for the "militarily useless" dismissal of anyone trying to surrender or fight against currently hopeless odds, it shows a profound ignorance of the difference between "dead" and "captured" or "outgunned". Until they're shackled and removed from the field, they're still a variable that can't be entirely written off in the face of a sudden reversal. The "dying rapidly" claim can't demonstrate a verifiable estimate for the definition of "rapid" -- we only know it would take much less time for Soon to dispatch Redcloak and Xykon and then descend upon the field, slaughtering 38 hobgoblins a minute (assuming he rolled a 1 twice) -- that's 2,040 an hour -- until they finally start to scatter. Sure, it will still take him more than 10 hours to finish them all by himself, but he doesn't need to finish them, nor does he need to fight them alone. The unstoppable engine of hobgoblin death might only need a few minutes to break the army's morale.

Dismissing Soon as "only human" fails to appreciate what he could do. He couldn't be everywhere any more than Xykon or Redcloak could, but he's even more untouchable than Xykon is to the majority of forces on the field. He couldn't get between Miko and the throne on an instant's notice, but that doesn't make it impossible for him to do so in any situation. The only way to limit him is to set arbitrary limitations on what he's allowed to do now that there's cause to finally reveal himself. No such reasons are demonstrated -- Soon's only reason given for being unable to pursue Xykon involves the Gate's destruction, and that alone.

When that fails to prove the test, we're offered claims that the story couldn't allow it, but since the story didn't, there is no such limitation on alternative possibilities. Remember, this is a story in which the most central character has been dead for nearly 28% of the series' run to date, showing exactly how much regard the author has for "has to" and "must" claims.

Assuming Soon did know of Shojo's entire plot, it has nothing to do with protecting the Gate. He might grumble about it privately, but he's not here to dictate the affairs of the living.

Eugene's presence is a threat to the secret guarding the Gate. It has nothing to do with whether or not he needs the help, which hasn't ever been an issue, and wasn't expected to be one any time soon either. No one save the Oracle could have reasonably predicted that Xykon would be able to assemble an army massive enough to attack a city, rather than going for the more isolated targets.


...another example of your trying to load the dice.

Not at all. I conceded the point when provided with an example of a hobgoblin casting a 4th level spell. I've allowed for the possibility of a few hundred low level clerics and even a 9th level priest or two. And I'm telling you that it doesn't make a difference. You, however, won't even back down when the author's words contradicts your claims.


Look, we are being shown a rout. The idea that the defense had this reserve "army" that could just run thru the attackers is just absurd.

In the case of an ordinary hobgoblin "sack and burn" invasion, they would not have such a resource. Once the Gate was at stake, they did, and once the initial threat it was dealt with, it was time to deal with the secondary threat out on the field before it could muster another attack. Also, given cause, routed forces are capable of rallying.

As for the Crimson Mantle, Redcloak, who has been shown to be an eager and capable student of knowledge, was as ignorant of its artifact properties before it was passed to him as anyone else. If he didn't know, there's no reason to believe anyone else would either. If it was just because he didn't have enough ranks in Knowledge (religion) back then, we're left unable to explain why some high-ranking member of the Sapphire Guard was unaware of its unique significance -- as well as why he wouldn't inform the force sent to deal with its bearer. Seems the Dark One keeps a few secrets very closely guarded as well.


But if we flood the throne room with 50+ grunts and each grabs a limb or something, we get the body out of there faster and more definitely than if we try to take it off and leave the one carrying it as a prime target for an unfriendly Soon.

Okay, let's play it your way. Let's say there are 200 grunts on the job for now. Soon cuts down the first handful to grab the body, but there are still plenty more. They run for the exit, replacing every carrier Soon cuts down on their way. (It's not like the others can form a shield wall around the carriers, since Soon can fly.) Fortunately, there are still plenty left when they finally reach the cleric able to raise Redcloak.

Unfortunately, Soon just kills him.


Which is more of the same "logic" that is trying to prove the PC can't do what it obviously could do. The incorpeal walks thru walls, and so "walls" can walk thru them.

Walls aren't creatures; they're objects. Objects and creatures are two entirely separate things in the D&D rules, which only allow incorporeal creatures to pass through objects, not other creatures. It doesn't have to make sense to you; those are the rules.


Given that Hobgoblins are shown standing around the entrance, and not being attacked by the martyrs, there is just about zero chance they left it.

What, they couldn't float out the window, or through the ceiling or floor? An "art error" is really that much more likely?


O-Chul didn't die either..

That's right. It didn't stop you from citing him as proof that all of the primary spellcasters had to be paladins that had to have come back as ghost martyrs, however. Would he have come back if he'd died? I believe he would have, sure (though then we'd have had no idea that he'd started out as a fighter). Still, his presence proves nothing either way.

David, if Hinjo's statements are contradicted by what we've seen (such as, "I guess O-chul did what he had to -- shatter the Gate in order to keep Xykon from seizing it."), then the default assumption is that Hinjo is incorrect. I'm willing to accept alternate possibilities and have provided a few, but it is the most likely of the lot. The suggestion that the absence of four (possibly five) blue-robed figures that don't wield swords from any of fourteen panels can be attributed as an "art error" is irrational at best, dishonest at worst.

This claim that oaths must be stupid just leaves me shaking my head. Eugene is condemned because he didn't follow through on it, and only he is prevented from moving on to the Celestial Realms as a result. The Sapphire Guard's oath didn't force its living members to stay in the throne room, and none of them were aware of Hinjo's family secret, so it's hard to see where the oath would contain a clause stating, "And I agree to return to the defend the Gate even beyond death, though not if it means I'd have to leave the throne room."


But in all these cases, the help only has just enough ability to help, not enough to win. It is the hero's job to win thru.

Just as it's the hero's job to win through even when someone else should have easily been able to take care of the problem, but was somehow prevented from doing so. It doesn't matter that Soon could have destroyed every hobgoblin in town within ten minutes of killing Xykon by turning them all into newts. (Before you say anything, this is one of the things we're pretty sure he couldn't do.) All that matters for story purposes is that he didn't.