3.0,3.5 major differences in core

[Coidzor]

So I've recently gone and bought a DMG and PHB for 3.0 as I have been unable to find any 3.5 books, either from clearances or used in my area. Or maybe they just all got liquidated in the immediate 3 days after 4th's release, whatever.

I spent 18 dollars where instead I would have had to have paid either 40 or 50 for a new, unfamiliar edition when the group I play with has just learned 3.5.

I just want to know what areas in particular I will need to watch out for as being superceded by 3.5. I'm fairly certain something happened with Rangers between 3.0 and 3.5, and I do have access to 3.5 books from some friends, I just haven't been able to find any to buy when I actually had disposable income. I have access to the SRD, and that's what I mostly used to relearn the game after not having read or played DnD since highschool.

Or do you think I should just not worry and just run 3.0 players in a mostly 3.5 environ?

[hamishspence]

many 3.0 books were easily converted to 3.5 with just changes in skills, Damage Reduction, and maybe the stuff monsters got, depending on type.

3.5 material in 3.0? could certainly work.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/). All core material for 3.5, + some.

[Telonius]

Big changes were ambidexterity rules, Rangers, Monks, Bards (IIRC) and no more facing rules. Can't remember much more offhand, but those are the big changes.

[Fax Celestis]

Does the 3.0->3.5 update packet update the corebooks?

[hamishspence]

A few skills getting abolished or renamed (names were changing even in late 3.0- Wilderness Lore to Survival). Abolished (functions merged) include Innuendo and Intuit Direction.

it didn't update them (thats what new books were for) but did mention the DR change. Manual of the Planes, Epic Handbook, MM2, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, got the 3.5 update.

[Matthew]

Does the 3.0->3.5 update packet update the corebooks?

Unfortunately, no (if you are referring to what I think you are). They tend to be only partial updates for some reason.

[Grey Paladin]

Only the highest Ability or Skill enchantment bonus applies.

If you're wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength +3 and cast Bull's Strength on yourself, you add either the bonus from the Gauntlets or the other enchantment- whichever is higher.

Which reminds me, Many spells were changed, for example the Ability boosting cycle was changed from 1D4+1 to a flat 4 and some (like Random Action) were completely removed.

[monty]

You should be able to find most of what you need in the SRD anyway.

[Coidzor]

Alright, so I'm good with SRD+ 3.0 books for the required things they wouldn't actually put in the SRD. Thanks everyone.

[Project_Mayhem]

Alright, so I'm good with SRD+ 3.0 books for the required things they wouldn't actually put in the SRD. Thanks everyone.

I can see why they did it, but forking out 35 quid just for the exp rules, 4 odd monsters, and pretty pictures was a little annoying.

[Douglas]

The major changes I remember are big nerfs to Haste, Heal, and Harm, and reducing the duration of the ability score buffs from hour/level to minute/level along with making them a constant +4 instead of 1d4+1. Oh, and improvements (but not enough) for TWF, overhauling the Bard and Ranger classes, and changing DR. DR/special material or damage type actually means something now - back in 3.0, a simple +1 weapon would beat all of that.

[Tempest Fennac]

Harm was overpowered. I'm not so sure about Heal, though (most of the time, the 3.5 version would probably restore full HPs anyway). Righteous Might was also twice as powerful back then (I use this website to compare them: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules3.0.php ).

[Eldariel]

Meh, the problem with Heal mostly exists for Tanks and Monsters now. It's just as good for casters, but these other classes tend to have more HP (your average level 15 Barbarian/X (say, Runescarred Berserker, since those actually don't suck) is gonna have ~200 HP when not Raging, ~230 when Raging provided no additional bonuses for 250 or so), as well as Dragons and the like. And the ones with more HP tend to be designed to take hits so they really want that full Heal to keep taking hits. Of course, the status-removing effect is at least as important as the healing one, so it's still handy.

One of the biggest differences is how Druid's animal companion got nerfed and turned into an actual class feature (it used to be a level 1 spell and he was able to control his CLx2 worth of HD of creatures at a time, although only his CL in HD's worth of creatures followed him). Other than that, Uncanny Dodge was rewritten (Trap Sense separated from it leaving Uncanny Dodge as simple Uncanny Dodge + Improved Uncanny Dodge), martial classes given some more abilities (outside Fighter and Monk, anyways), and Monk's unarmed strike got turned into normal attack with Flurry added to it. Oh yeah, and Monk got into 1d20 UA die on level 16 (it never dealt 2dX damage). Oh yeah, and weapon systems got rewritten in a somewhat more sensible fashion (which unfortunately spawned a whole other bunch of nonsense since the rewrite wasn't thorough enough).


And Harm was just yet another Save-or-Die, except it didn't kill. Hardly overpowered.

[jamroar]

Some other major points of note.

Damage Reduction was completely changed from vs. +n to vs. magic or specific damage source/materials.

Armour and Weapon sizing rules are different and somewhat more complicated than 3.0.

Several monsters were powered up in HD and abilities from 3.0 to 3.5

Polymorph, Disintegrate, Haste, and Harm, among other instawin spells have been greatly toned down from their 3.0 versions.

Paladin mounts now summoned like pokemon, as seem on OOTs.

[Tempest Fennac]

What are Runescarred Berserkers like? I don't have access to the book which they are detailed in.

[Uin]

Unapproachable East (Faerun) I think.

Slowed barbarian feature progression, I think you finish up without Mighty Rage in the end, with a rune carving spell list including Heal and Anti-Magic Field which is more than worth it.

[Tempest Fennac]

That sounds neat (if I had access to the book, it would fit perfectly for a defence-based LA 0 Gnoll Barbarian who I started a thread for a while back).

[Duke of URL]

Does the 3.0->3.5 update packet update the corebooks?

No -- they provide a pretty complete update on the Player's Handbook, but only an overview on the DMG and the MM. Curiously, they do provide a full update for MMII, but not one for MMI. (Probably because they didn't intend to reprint MMII.)

[Hzurr]

Monk's unarmed strike got turned into normal attack with Flurry added to it. Oh yeah, and Monk got into 1d20 UA die on level 16 (it never dealt 2dX damage).

See, while I know it's less average damage, it was still kindof neat to have a 1d20 damage die, because that meant that the only die a high level monk would ever need is a d20.

[Eldariel]

That sounds neat (if I had access to the book, it would fit perfectly for a defence-based LA 0 Gnoll Barbarian who I started a thread for a while back).

Runescarred Berserker is a personal favourite. Basically, Gish-in-a-Can, except as full Rage & HP & BAB Barbarian. The downside is that you reach the maximum Runescar level on level 16 (you get Heal and AMF then as the major ones), which is really late, but it's awesome to have them at all. Also, it kinda sucks that you can't cast spells, but you gotta make the Runescars (sorta like making Scrolls) before you can use them - it annoyingly costs little XP (although is still really cheap in comparison to magic items, of course). Runescarred Berserker makes for the best mundane Grappler as the ability to eventually cast AMF allows you to negate Freedom of Movement, shapechange magic, soulmelds, psionics and all other types of cheating other grapplers would use against you.

[Tempest Fennac]

My idea wasn't really for the character to be a grappler. The Heal and AMF would be useful, though.

[Eldariel]

Yea, Grappling is still suboptimal. They're better at it than just about anyone else though. They still do the Barbarian's "break your face"-gig though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yea, Grappling is still suboptimal. They're better at it than just about anyone else though.Malconvoker. +44 grapple.

[Eldariel]

Malconvoker. +44 grapple.

Oh c'mon, that's with Magic. Even a Barbarian without size increases can almost get those (20 BAB + 18 Str (18 base + 4 race + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 6 rage + 2 reckless rage) + 4 Improved Grapple for +42). Heck, +39 of that applies in AMF. Jotunbrud/Mountain Rage/whatever makes it +43, still in AMF. And that's without really piling up feats, Str increases or such. Or Magic.

[Aquillion]

Haste was massively nerfed. In 3.0, it used to actually grant additional actions. They eventually made the old function of Haste a class feature for the Swiftblade, and it's something you can only get at 19th level, if I recall correctly. In 3.0 you got it at... fifth. As part-and-parcel of being a wizard.

[Lappy9000]

There were quite a few changes to the monsters too. The Beast type got stricken out all together in 3.5 and the Shapechanget type was switched to a subtype.

[monty]

Haste was massively nerfed. In 3.0, it used to actually grant additional actions. They eventually made the old function of Haste a class feature for the Swiftblade, and it's something you can only get at 19th level, if I recall correctly. In 3.0 you got it at... fifth. As part-and-parcel of being a wizard.

Factotum gets it at 8th.

[Zeta Kai]

For those who are curious, here is a link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) to all the of the material published by WotC associated with upgrading from v3.0 to v3.5; it's quite helpful for some things, & not very helpful for others. But it's all in the somewhere.

[Malfunctioned]

...and some (like Random Action) were completely removed.

Actually Random Action was just changed to Lesser Confusion IIRC.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Also (I cannot remember which) but either Magic Weapons got more expensive or armour got cheaper.

[Curmudgeon]

Encounters automatically started at half the first possible encounter distance in 3.0. No encounters start automatically in 3.5 until somebody succeeds at a Spot check (except for avalanches and forest fires, which retain the 3.0 rules). You can now have two parties of characters with low Spot scores pass relatively close to each other and never have an encounter.

[Aquillion]

Factotum gets it at 8th.Not quite the same. Haste gave you an extra standard action every single round (which the Swiftblade eventually gets.) While Factotum's ability is awesome, you still have to pay and use it several rounds on end, instead of casting it before combat (or on the first round) and getting extra actions constantly in return.

[monty]

Jut curious, would casting 3.0 haste on yourself get you an extra action on the same turn? Seems like it would be almost free to use, then.

[Aquillion]

Jut curious, would casting 3.0 haste on yourself get you an extra action on the same turn? Seems like it would be almost free to use, then.You could. Although looking back, that reminded me of something else different: Actions were more confusingly-described in 3.0.

In 3.0, a standard action included a move. Haste actually granted you an extra "partial action", which was like what a standard action is in 3.5 (you can cast a spell or make one attack, and make a 5-foot step as you do, but you can't move unless you use the whole partial action to do it.)

In 3.5 someone had a fit of sanity and realized they could just separate the 'standard action' and 'move action' into totally different things, and say that you get one of each in your turn unless you use them both as a full-round action.

Functionally identical, though.