So what's the deal with monkey grip?

[Whiplord]

I always see lots of confusion over this feat. I have a player who wants to take Monkey Grip in order to use a large greatsword. Is this legal?

[Fan]

Well. yeah. It says in the entry that you can wiel;d a weapon as if one size catagory larger.... I'm also a fan of this feat stacking with Powerful build, but Dms always say NOOOO. :smallannoyed:

[Stupendous_Man]

I always see lots of confusion over this feat. I have a player who wants to take Monkey Grip in order to use a large greatsword. Is this legal?

Yes. It is also a bad idea.

-2 penalty to gain +3.5 damage on average.

Power attacking for -2 gives you +4 damage

Monkey Grip is worse than Power Attack.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

1:The feat sucks. If he wants to use it, let him.
2:The feat allows you to wield a weapon that is a size category larger than yourself without increasing the number of hands you need. So a Large Greatsword is fine for a Medium creature.
3:The normal size penalty to attacks applies. So he will be taking -2 to AB in exchange for +3.5 damage. More than fair.
4:The Feat does not stack with Powerful Build. It overlaps, they both do the same thing.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. It is also a bad idea.

-2 penalty to gain +3.5 damage on average.

Power attacking for -2 gives you +4 damage

Monkey Grip is worse than Power Attack,.

Except in the instance in which you get a large multiplier consistently (read: wielding a Large lance two-handed on a charging (or diving) mount with Spirited Charge).

[Stupendous_Man]

Except in the instance in which you get a large multiplier consistently (read: wielding a Large lance two-handed on a charging (or diving) mount with Spirited Charge).

Ok, good point, but generally, it's inferior to just power attacking for -2.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Ok, good point, but generally, it's inferior to just power attacking for -2.If you can boost the size mods just enough(so that MG takes your weapon from Huge to Gargantuan or from Gargantuan to Colossal) it's -2 AB for +7 damage. But such situations are rare, as most large races aren't valid targets for Enlarge Person so you have to either be a PsyWar or a Cleric. It normally sucks.

[Douglas]

Except in the instance in which you get a large multiplier consistently (read: wielding a Large lance two-handed on a charging (or diving) mount with Spirited Charge).
The multiplier would apply to both bonuses. Power Attack is still better.

The only time Monkey Grip is good is when you're already a few size categories above medium. Sure, medium to large is only 1d6 extra, but huge to gargantuan is 2d6. If you manage to stack enough size increasers on to go beyond the end of the table, then the exponential growth really starts to kick in. Just read all the things you use to do this very carefully to make sure they really do all work together.

[Project_Mayhem]

But such situations are rare, as most large races aren't valid targets for Enlarge Person so you have to either be a PsyWar or a Cleric

That would be why the XPH Psychic warrior art had such an excessively large sword then.

[kamikasei]

Note also that Monkey Grip will let you wield a large greatsword two-handed, or a large longsword one-handed, but not a medium greatsword one-handed. People sometimes try to do that for some reason. (In effect, they will be similar or identical anyway.)


That would be why the XPH Psychic warrior art had such an excessively large sword then.

More likely because he was a half-giant and therefore had Powerful Build. If he had used expansion on himself, both he and the weapon would have grown and hence the sword wouldn't look any larger relative to him.

[Ganurath]

Would having a Large weapon extend your reach?

*imagines an enlarged half-giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip to wield the biggest Glaive possible*

[Fax Celestis]

The multiplier would apply to both bonuses. Power Attack is still better.

The only time Monkey Grip is good is when you're already a few size categories above medium. Sure, medium to large is only 1d6 extra, but huge to gargantuan is 2d6. If you manage to stack enough size increasers on to go beyond the end of the table, then the exponential growth really starts to kick in. Just read all the things you use to do this very carefully to make sure they really do all work together.

Let me go dig up my old math...

EDIT: Found it:


Right. The only time Monkey Grip is remotely useful is when you are consistently getting a large multiplier. For instance, a mounted charger wielding a Large lance will deal a greater average amount of damage than one wielding a Medium one, and comparable damage to one who is using a medium lance and Power Attacking for an equal penalty. The following, for example:

Premise feats: Monkey Grip, Power Attack, Spirited Charge.
{table=head]Weapon | Size | Penalty | Damage | Multiplier | Damage Range | Average
Lance | Medium | PA for 2 | 1d8+Str+PA | *3 | 9-22 + 3*Str | 15.5 + 3*Str
Lance | Large | MG (-2) | 2d6+Str+PA | *3 | 6-32 + 3*Str | 19 + 3*Str[/table]

...which is a significant increase. Couple this with Power Attack, a Cavalier's increased lance charges, or a diving charge and it gets better. You can also add in a size increase (enlarge person is the simplest way).

{table=head]Weapon | Size | Penalty | Damage | Multiplier | Damage Range | Average
Lance | Medium | PA for 2 | 1d8+Str+PA | *5 | 15-50 + 5*Str | 32.5 + 5*Str
Lance | Large | MG (-2) | 2d6+Str+PA | *5 | 10-60 + 5*Str | 35 + 5*Str
Lance | Huge | MG (-2) | 3d6+Str+PA | *5 | 15-90 + 5*Str | 60 + 5*Str
Lance | Medium | PA for 7 | 1d8+Str+PA | *5 | 40-75 + 5*Str | 57.5 + 5*Str
Lance | Large | MG + PA for 5 | 2d6+Str+PA | *5 | 35-85 + 5*Str | 60 + 5*Str
Lance | Huge | MG + PA for 5 | 3d6+Str+PA | *5 | 40-115 + 5*Str | 77.5 + 5*Str[/table]

[Project_Mayhem]

More likely because he was a half-giant and therefore had Powerful Build. If he had used expansion on himself, both he and the weapon would have grown and hence the sword wouldn't look any larger relative to him.

Oops, forgot the weapon grows as well. That makes sense.

[Fax Celestis]

Would having a Large weapon extend your reach?

*imagines an enlarged half-giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip to wield the biggest Glaive possible*

Normally, yes, but Monkey Grip explicitly states your reach does not change.

[Douglas]

Let me go dig up my old math...

EDIT: Found it:
Right, now do that again with the two-handed Power Attack bonus. You only counted Power Attack at the 1-to-1 ratio that one-handed weapons get, and that is why Monkey Grip came out better. The multiplier had nothing to do with it.

[kamikasei]

Would having a Large weapon extend your reach?

*imagines an enlarged half-giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip to wield the biggest Glaive possible*

...I don't think so. If you have a reach weapon and you enlarge yourself, enlarging it along with, then its reach increases. But reach works off your own size and the reach or lack thereof of the weapon, not the weapon's size. Holding a medium glaive gives you reach, a large greatsword doesn't. The archetypal psywar tripmonkey uses a spiked chain and expansion, but just using a bigger spiked chain on its own would be no help to him.


Normally, yes, but Monkey Grip explicitly states your reach does not change.

I could have sworn otherwise; let me check.

[Draz74]

Would having a Large weapon extend your reach?

*imagines an enlarged half-giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip to wield the biggest Glaive possible*

No. It doesn't make any sense, but WotC has ruled that your reach has absolutely nothing to do with the size category of the weapon you wield. Only with your own size category and the type of weapon you wield.

Human using a Large Whip (2-handed, with a -2 penalty, unless he has Monkey Grip, in which case it's 1-handed, with a -2 penalty)? Still just 15-foot reach.

Ogre using a Medium Shortsword (as a light weapon, and with a -2 penalty)? Still normal 10-foot reach.


But such situations are rare, as most large races aren't valid targets for Enlarge Person so you have to either be a PsyWar or a Cleric.

Or a Wu Jen. Not that they ever care what weapon they wield anyway. :smallamused:

Wu Jen Gish with Giant Size and Monkey Grip could be interesting. Though gishes are usually too feat-starved for Monkey Grip to be worth it, still.

[monty]

Would having a Large weapon extend your reach?

*imagines an enlarged half-giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip to wield the biggest Glaive possible*

Of course not. That would make sense.

[Fax Celestis]

Right, now do that again with the two-handed Power Attack bonus. You only counted Power Attack at the 1-to-1 ratio that one-handed weapons get, and that is why Monkey Grip came out better. The multiplier had nothing to do with it.

...why so I did. I recall doing that since you generally wield a lance one-handed while mounted. I'll redo the math for two-handed later.

Of course, eyeballing the two-handed math makes it look more like the difference between a greataxe and a greatsword--1d12 v 2d6, but that's just from eyeballing, so it could be wrong.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

...why so I did. I recall doing that since you generally wield a lance one-handed while mounted. I'll redo the math for two-handed later.:smallconfused: No you don't. Any PA needs 2 hands. Beyond that, the Str multiplier increase is usually more than enough to replace the potential AC loss(from a shield).

[Fax Celestis]

:smallconfused: No you don't. Any PA needs 2 hands. Beyond that, the Str multiplier increase is usually more than enough to replace the potential AC loss(from a shield).

Uh, what? You can Power Attack one-handed. It just comes out better two-handed. And as for one-handed lances, I believe I may have been under the impression at that point that you had to use them one-handed while mounted, instead of being able to.

[only1doug]

Or a Wu Jen. Not that they ever care what weapon they wield anyway. :smallamused:

Wu Jen Gish with Giant Size and Monkey Grip could be interesting. Though gishes are usually too feat-starved for Monkey Grip to be worth it, still.

A wizard/sorcerer gish could just Greater Mighty Wallop a blunt weapon for increased size categories.

[Ganurath]

I'm looking at the Monkey Grip entry, and I see no reference to reach.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm looking at the Monkey Grip entry, and I see no reference to reach.
Which entry? It's in like five books, and each one is different. I think the newest is in Weapons of Legacy, under Bloodcrier's Hammer.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm looking at the Monkey Grip entry, and I see no reference to reach.

This is because reach is a function of your size category plus any weapon you might have that specifically has the "Reach" property. Even if you wield a Gargantuan spear you can only poke people ten feet away from you if you're Medium. The feat wouldn't need to say anything about reach unless it was changing the standard rule.

[monty]

For example, if you had a tiny creature with a major Titan bloodline wielding a gargantuan warhammer, you would still have a reach of 0.

[Fax Celestis]

For example, if you had a tiny creature with a major Titan bloodline wielding a gargantuan warhammer, you would still have a reach of 0.

Because of the silly way reach-math works, a Tiny creature wielding a Tiny longspear or a Tiny spiked chain still has 0' reach. 0' reach doubled is still 0'.

[monty]

Because of the silly way reach-math works, a Tiny creature wielding a Tiny longspear or a Tiny spiked chain still has 0' reach. 0' reach doubled is still 0'.

I thought it was technically 2 1/2 feet (which would round down to 0) so it doubles to 5 with a reach weapon.

[Tokiko Mima]

Though, for wielding a ridiculously large weapon, the 12th level of Major Titan Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan) can't be beat.

It grant the Use Oversized Weapon ability, as the Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm). You are limited to a two handed warhammer, though. 4d6 damage with no size penalty! Woot!

The odd part is that it doesn't get any increased reach for being so large. Reach is weird. :smallconfused:

[Douglas]

For example, if you had a tiny creature with a major Titan bloodline wielding a gargantuan warhammer, you would still have a reach of 0.
Which brings up the question of how a tiny creature got a Titan bloodline in the first place...:smalleek:

[Stupendous_Man]

Which brings up the question of how a tiny creature got a Titan bloodline in the first place...:smalleek:

Judicious use of the Grease spell was involved.

[monty]

Which brings up the question of how a tiny creature got a Titan bloodline in the first place...:smalleek:

A wizard did it. No worse than the owlbear. Or the owlephant.:smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

I thought it was technically 2 1/2 feet (which would round down to 0) so it doubles to 5 with a reach weapon.

Nope, that's the space.


Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.

[Flickerdart]

What kind of weapon would a Huge lance be, anyway? A pointy battering ram? That strike on a spirited charge should send people flying.

[Fax Celestis]

What kind of weapon would a Huge lance be, anyway? A pointy battering ram? That strike on a spirited charge should send people flying.

Uh, bull-rush? :P Alternatively, Awesome Blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow).

[monty]

Nope, that's the space.

Huh. I guess I've been playing it "wrong," then.

[Yuki Akuma]

Which brings up the question of how a tiny creature got a Titan bloodline in the first place...:smalleek:

Titan + Troll > Half-Titan Troll + Human > Half-Troll Human + Nixie > Half-Fae Human + Pixie > Half-Fae Pixie (?!) + Pixie = Pixie with the Titan bloodline. Simple! :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

Huh. I guess I've been playing it "wrong," then.

Well, your way makes sense, otherwise martial Tiny characters are completely unplayable.

I'm torn right now between going as a Skiurid Ranger (riding a shadow eagle), a Skiurid Knight (same mount, but gotten with the Wild Cohort feat), or a Skiurid Swordsage (with a reach weapon and a DM who rules sanely) for my next character.

[Edea]

Judicious use of the Grease spell was involved.

Oh, ew :smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

Which brings up the question of how a tiny creature got a Titan bloodline in the first place...:smalleek:

Just hope it came from the mother's side. Otherwise that would be painful.

[Fax Celestis]

Just hope it came from the mother's side. Otherwise that would be painful.

*refrains from making a joke about spelunking.*

[Oracle_Hunter]

Uh, bull-rush? :P Alternatively, Awesome Blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow).

What an interesting name for a feat, considering the rest of the depravity in this discussion :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

What an interesting name for a feat, considering the rest of the depravity in this discussion :smalltongue:

Yeah, I know. I was surprised that the Book of Erotic Fantasy didn't take that one and run with it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah, I know. I was surprised that the Book of Erotic Fantasy didn't take that one and run with it.

Do... do you actually own a copy of said book? If so, why?

Wait! Don't answer the second question! :smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

Do... do you actually own a copy of said book? If so, why?

Wait! Don't answer the second question! :smalleek:

I don't. My wife does. I'll let you come (sic) to your own conclusions.

[Yuki Akuma]

Do... do you actually own a copy of said book? If so, why?

Wait! Don't answer the second question! :smalleek:

I own a copy. It's... not bad. The subject matter is laughable, of course, but as sex-based RPG supplements go it's not actually that bad.

The 'fantasy' art sucks, though. Photo manipulations! Ugh.

[Heliomance]

Do... do you actually own a copy of said book? If so, why?

Wait! Don't answer the second question! :smalleek:

Morbid curiosity

[Flickerdart]

"Hey baby, check out my Huge lance." Too bad they took Innuendo out of 3.5.

[Fax Celestis]

"Hey baby, check out my Huge lance." Too bad they took Innuendo out of 3.5.

"Forget his Huge lance. I have a rod of lordly might and two orbs of annihilation."

[Stupendous_Man]

More like a Rod of Withering

[Fax Celestis]

More like a Rod of Withering

...

I suppose either way it doesn't matter. My wife took Monkey Grip and Awesome Blow.

[FMArthur]

Titan + Troll > Half-Titan Troll + Human > Half-Troll Human + Nixie > Half-Fae Human + Pixie > Half-Fae Pixie (?!) + Pixie = Pixie with the Titan bloodline. Simple! :smallbiggrin:


That's very complicated. It could simply be that a male pixie flew (mistakenly?) into a female titan. Somehow inseminates an egg (probably golfball-sized) and is presumably killed by crushing damage, never to be seen again. Some time later, maybe weeks, months, or years, a pixie with a half-titan bloodline is born!

...I don't think the titan mother would even have noticed this process taking place.

[Stupendous_Man]

...

I suppose either way it doesn't matter. My wife took Monkey Grip and Awesome Blow.

I suppose she dipped a level in monk too.

[Flickerdart]

I suppose she dipped a level in monk too.
For Improved Grapple?

[Fax Celestis]

For Improved Grapple?

And Flurry of Blows.

(actually, on that note, monks make excellent courtesans. Improved Grapple, flurry, immunity to disease, ability to speak with everyone, armor class when unarmored...)

[Stupendous_Man]

For Improved Grapple?

Flurry of Blows.

Or perhaps the PBH II alternate class feature, Decisive Blow.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, your way makes sense, otherwise martial Tiny characters are completely unplayable.Confound the Bigfolk. Required for a tiny meleer.

Edit:And these boards once were going to play a game based on the BoEF material, but it died like so many other PBPs.

[Starbuck_II]

I thought it was technically 2 1/2 feet (which would round down to 0) so it doubles to 5 with a reach weapon.

Whips aren't really reach weapons so a tiny whip should still have a attack range of 15, right?

[monty]

Best thread ever.

[Fishy]

Whips aren't really reach weapons so a tiny whip should still have a attack range of 15, right?

Because what the titan/pixie discussion really needed right now was a pixie with a whip.

[Thurbane]

Save a feat and grab some Strongarm Bracers instead...

[Flickerdart]

Save a feat and grab some Strongarm Bracers instead...
Fax, watch out for these people's advice...what with the whips and the strongarm bracers, your Rod of Lordly Might is in danger of being Sundered!

[Hal]

And Flurry of Blows.

(actually, on that note, monks make excellent courtesans. Improved Grapple, flurry, immunity to disease, ability to speak with everyone, armor class when unarmored...)

Let's hope for her sake you didn't take Quick Draw or Rapid Shot.

In something more on topic, should a character with Powerful Build be allowed to take Awesome Blow?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In something more on topic, should a character with Powerful Build be allowed to take Awesome Blow?RaW no. RaI, probably yes. It seems based on Bull Rush and similar, so letting it be used by someone who's Large for those would be reasonable.

[Roderick_BR]

Note also that Monkey Grip will let you wield a large greatsword two-handed, or a large longsword one-handed, but not a medium greatsword one-handed. People sometimes try to do that for some reason. (In effect, they will be similar or identical anyway.)
Just to make it clear:

In the original 3.0 rule, weapon size was usually static: Daggers were tiny, short swords were small, longswords were medium, and greatswords were large, with larger weapons especifically made for some creatures (an ogre could wield a large greatsword, for example)
You could wield a weapon up to your size category one handed, so a human (medium sized) could use from daggers to longswords one-handed. To use a weapon one size category larger, he needed 2 hands, like a human using a greatsword.
Monkey grip allowed you to wield weapons one size category bigger than you one-handed, with a -2 penalty. So a human could use a greatsword one-handed.

In 3.5, the weapon size rules changed, and so did Monkey-Grip.

So, people usually mistakes the old rules with the newer rules.

[Talic]

RaW no. RaI, probably yes. It seems based on Bull Rush and similar, so letting it be used by someone who's Large for those would be reasonable.

Powerful build is allowed for PrC prerequisites. Why not for feat prerequisites, I say.

Yes, Goliaths can be hulking hurlers.

[Kaiyanwang]

I let on of my players use the fullblade from A&E*... he made it of gold, to increase weapon damage (MoF) . So he planned to take MG later, to reach 4d8 damage.

Anyway, he has others combos like spells to throw the weapon and so on... but is fairly useful in his case. :smallsmile:



*houseruled 13 Str prereq for coherency

[Klose_the_Sith]

And Flurry of Blows.

(actually, on that note, monks make excellent courtesans. Improved Grapple, flurry, immunity to disease, ability to speak with everyone, armor class when unarmored...)

On a free-form RP forum I have a character based on this exact theory. Course she isn't a 'courtesan' oh no.

She's a 'model'