Will Belkar (still) die ?

[Underground]

Surprisingly, there is not already a thread about this.

What do you think ? Is Belkar still about to die ? Or do you rather think Rich decided to change the story in #606 and will let Belkar "from the hook" ?

Personally I think this is a planned story twitch and Belkar is still about to die. But maybe he will die now because of his newfound character depth.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yes, Belkar will still die. He might redeem himself from the purely senseless killing of Solk Lorkyurg, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) but I doubt it...

Actually, I felt Belkar had more depth than most people gave him credit for... While he is a stone cold killer, up until Solk bought it, he limited himself to killing people and creatures who were actually a threat to him in one form or another.

Goblins? The OotS has no access to interment camps. Releasing them back into the wild could lead to ambushes.
Elan? It was a joke, and Elan makes him laugh. Elan is probably Belkar's best friend, and possibly his ONLY friend.
The Village of the Dirt Farmers? Also a joke, said to lighten the mood.
Bandits? They attacked first. That's why it's called an ambush.
The Guard? Belkar was wrongly and illegally imprisoned. What assurances does he have that he won't be tortured for someone's amusement?
The Oracle? Textbook case of provocation. :smallbiggrin:

Solk's murder was the only killing that can't be justified. Sure, several of his other killings and attemts were on shaky ground, but a good attorney should be able to cut him a deal. Solk was the one killing that was really "out-of-character" for the Belkster.

[Beren]

The consensus around here seems to be that Belkar's not "about to die." He can still be around for a good long time before the prophecy is fulfilled.

[DBJack]

Belkar will die. It may not be for some time, or it may be mere strips after the dream sequence we are at now, but Belkar will die eventually.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The big questions is when, and by what calandar?

Here on the Kilonazi chart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), we can see that it is May (or at least the OotSverse equivalent of the fifth month), then later we find out three and a half months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) have passed since Roy died. So now it is at least mid-September, if not October, in Greysky City, leaving Belkar 90 days or so left in this Vale of Tears.

Of course, the Oracle could be using the Azure City calendar, giving Belkar another 90-120+ days, since their calendar starts several month later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html)

But either way, Belkar has less than six months, and most likely only three months to live. But a LOT can happen in three months, after all, the Battle for Azure City was a single day... :smalleek:

[SteveMB]

My bet is still on

Belkar doing something heroic that gets him killed -- in a way that was never intended to be anything but part of his pretense of "character growth".

[jamroar]

The big questions is when, and by what calandar?

Here on the Kilonazi chart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), we can see that it is May (or at least the OotSverse equivalent of the fifth month), then later we find out three and a half months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) have passed since Roy died. So now it is at least mid-September, if not October, in Greysky City, leaving Belkar 90 days or so left in this Vale of Tears.

Of course, the Oracle could be using the Azure City calendar, giving Belkar another 90-120+ days, since their calendar starts several month later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html)

But either way, Belkar has less than six months, and most likely only three months to live. But a LOT can happen in three months, after all, the Battle for Azure City was a single day... :smalleek:

There's also the unspecified time Roy spent scrying the OOTS for several arcs, and the time skip where Roy returned to the mountain after the chat with the Oracle and trained with Grandpa for "all those weeks" on the spell disruption feat (another month or so?).

Unless all those time skips had already pushed the calendar into the next year when the Oracle made his prophecy, in which case, he gets a much longer stay of execution.

[Totally Guy]

I think that Belkar will die after Roy comes back. That way Roy "discovering" the Belkar will die prophesy will have some meaning in the greater narrative.

[SteveDJ]

I just thought of a new idea, that would allow him to live, yet still fulfill the prophecy...

Suppose as part of Belkar's attempts to show people he has changed, what if he were to change his name? That would mean "Belkar" drew his last breath, and <newly_named_character> continues to live on.

[factotum]

I think most of the forum readers would rightly castigate the Giant for terrible writing if he went down that path.

Anyway, so far the Oracle has had a 100% success rate in his predictions...which kind of spoils any sense of suspense there might be, because we know for a fact the world still exists in the year March 26, 1187 (that's when the Oracle is next due to be raised, according to #571).

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Nah. Of course Belkar will die only to arise as a Ranger/Barbarian Morgh-Halfling of DOOM. And that's why he will never be ressurected again. Go Belkster!


...ok, it won't happen, but that would be nice.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Belkar's death is just a metaphor. His attitude is dying. Just like Roy didn't die. His time in Celestia is just a metaphor for recalling his past. In fact, the whole comic is an extended dream sequence and the only "real" person is Dorukon. The comic will end when:
We discover that the whole thing was a vision produced by a Divination spell in which Dorukon inquires what he should have for breakfast. The ultimate answer is: Half a grapefruit, 3 strips of bacon, 2 waffles, 6 pancakes, and a triple order of hashbrowns (slathered, smothered, covered, and diced).

[Zevox]

I don't think Belkar is "about" to die at all. Certainly we know from #603 that the Mark of Justice's curse is non-fatal, so no matter how bad he gets from that, he'll live. Unless one of the thieves' guild's attackers kills him while he's helpless (which I don't think will happen due to how anti-climactic and dull it would be), he'll live through these events.

Still, I certainly think he will die at some point in the future. The Oracle has a perfect track record thus far, and his hints and then outright prediction with regards to Belkar's well-being were hardly unclear (no matter how much some fans try to twist the words - you'd think everyone would have gotten the message about that after #567). Which is a pity, since Belkar is my favorite character as far as comedy value goes, but oh well.

Incidentally, Underground, what are you talking about with this "newfound character depth" thing? Belkar decided to fake character development. He isn't actually changing in any meaningful way, he's just going to pretend he has so that he can get away with more. That's not really new character depth.

Zevox

[Flame of Anor]

Maybe Belkar will do something heroic which ends in his being swallowed by one of the rifts. Then he would go out with an appropriate bang and couldn't be rezzed even if the Order wanted to.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Incidentally, Underground, what are you talking about with this "newfound character depth" thing? Belkar decided to fake character development. He isn't actually changing in any meaningful way, he's just going to pretend he has so that he can get away with more. That's not really new character depth.
Eh, Belkar has a tendency to wear his black heart on his sleeve. This kind of deception can add a new level to the character. It's depth. Just not the kind of depth some people may have been hoping for.

[Kish]

Yes, Belkar will still die on schedule. Nothing has changed that would change that.

[Spider_Jerusalem]

The only heroic action Morgh Belkster of Doom will ever do is destroying Xykon. Probably AFTER killing every single PC in OotS. And it will be done only as an act of vengeance against Azure City (Xykon is, after all, the ruler of Azure now). It's as clear as water that he'll become an undead avatar of mass-killing. It is, of course, the only interpretation that can be made of the oracle.

(OK, there's something I really don't get here. Why do you need to stay away from a life of killing to have character depth? Some messages here give that impression.)

[Zeful]

(OK, there's something I really don't get here. Why do you need to stay away from a life of killing to have character depth? Some messages here give that impression.)

You don't. Belkar is going down the path of non-obvious slaughter. He'll still be as violent as ever, just differently. That is what gives the character depth.

[Corsair]

Belkar cannot get away with just an attitude name or a name change. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html
Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year.

So resurrection, a name change, a 'better attitude', and everything else is out of it. He might get raised as a zombie, but that's it. He will die eventually.

[PandaCthulhu]

... While he is a stone cold killer, up until Solk bought it, he limited himself to killing people and creatures who were actually a threat to him in one form or another.
...
Solk's murder was the only killing that can't be justified. Sure, several of his other killings and attempts were on shaky ground, but a good attorney should be able to cut him a deal. Solk was the one killing that was really "out-of-character" for the Belkster.

In OtOoPCs:You don't want to read this if you haven't read the book and intend to read it some dayI mean itJust 4 days before the events of strip 1, :belkar: kills 15 people in a tavern brawl, including some barmaids, then evades justice.
Edit: I decided it would be wise to cut back the spoilered contents to the minimum to make my case. But it's still a spoiler!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Actually, in OtOoPCsYou don't want to read this if you haven't read the book and intend to read it some dayI mean itJust 4 days before the events of strip 1, :belkar: kills 15 people in a village, including some barmaids in an unarmed (except for :belkar:) tavern brawl, then evades justice.

Yes, I have the book! (Totally rocked!)

What's not said is:
who started the fight, and whether or not Belkar felt excessively threatened by a drunken crowd who may have started out unarmed but could have armed themselves quite quickly with chairs, tables, halflings, etc... If I were picked up and swung about as a club, I might want to take advantage of a more potent weapon than a snarky comment. At 30 pounds, Belkar is at a severe disadvantage in a standup fight against multiple opponants.

I know it's the same argument as the Barbarian's Guild, but again a good lawyer can argue that Belkar was threatened by multiple opponants, and was justified in taking stronger steps to defend himself.

[HealthKit]

Perhaps, in a great act of "I told you so" Belkar will die on December 31st (or whatever month it's considered to be "in comic") at 11:59 PM by, let's say, a meteor that crashed on top of his head or some other ironic punch bellow the belt.
By that point perhaps there's some sort of weird combination of circumstances that prevent him from being raised. Like all the other characters don't care about him enough to raise him, or they've spent all the diamonds on raising other characters, or Durkon has died before he the had the chance to cast the spell or whatever.

Who knows what the future might hold, but my gold pieces are on Belkar biting the big one.

[PandaCthulhu]

Yes, I have the book! (Totally rocked!)

What's not said is:
who started the fight, and whether or not Belkar felt excessively threatened by a drunken crowd who may have started out unarmed but could have armed themselves quite quickly with chairs, tables, halflings, etc... If I were picked up and swung about as a club, I might want to take advantage of a more potent weapon than a snarky comment. At 30 pounds, Belkar is at a severe disadvantage in a standup fight against multiple opponants.
I know it's the same argument as the Barbarian's Guild, but again a good lawyer can argue that Belkar was threatened by multiple opponants, and was justified in taking stronger steps to defend himself.
I agree that this is a possible (if tenuous) argument. But, on the other hand:
OtOoPCs
The barmaids cannot have been any threat). And he did go back and murder the guard just to steal his mustache to use as a disguise. Which was cool though.:smallsmile:

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Barbarian-ranger-morghs-of-doom don't breath.

[MagMagus]

On the subject of #610, "heroic sacrifice" seems likely, but not "they kill him while he's sick." Considering that one rogue outside is an Arcane Trickster and another multiclasses far too much (Both from Origin), Belkar shouldn't have much of a problem after the first guy.

I'd like to see him take out Redcloak with his dying breath. That'd be awesome.

[Warlord JK]

Belkar is going to die in some form or another, that is concrete. Now, is he going to do literally or metaphorically (lots of arguments here) or under some special circumstances both? These are the questions up for debate.

Edit: Sweet! I hit orc! :smallbiggrin:

[Hydro Globus]

Erm... I hate to spoil your fun, but Belkar is still a self-proclaimed god of war. Bozzok will most likely kill him, even if he has to use different rogues for flanking each round (because of untimely stabby death), so unless V arrives, the Remove Curse didn't help a lot...

[Zevox]

Erm... I hate to spoil your fun, but Belkar is still a self-proclaimed god of war. Bozzok will most likely kill him, even if he has to use different rogues for flanking each round (because of untimely stabby death), so unless V arrives, the Remove Curse didn't help a lot...
Not necessarily. Bozzok may be a Half-Orc with a Bastard Sword, but he's still a Rogue - and almost certainly a pure Rogue, since he needs to be 4 levels higher than Haley in that class in particular to sneak attack her. And Rogues are very much so inferior to Rangers and Barbarians in combat prowess. Worse hp, worse bab, and not much in the way of combat-useful class features outside of sneak attack. If Belkar can incapacitate the rest of his allies before fighting Bozzok and Crystal, which shouldn't be too hard, all he has to do it take down Crystal to keep them from sneak attacking him, and he has a pretty good shot at Bozzok. Especially if he breaks out his Barbarian rage.

Zevox

[Zeful]

Belkar is going to die in some form or another, that is concrete. Now, is he going to do literally or metaphorically (lots of arguments here) or under some special circumstances both? These are the questions up for debate.

Edit: Sweet! I hit orc! :smallbiggrin:

The oracle doesn't do metaphorical to much. Most of his prophecies are literal (even Haley's vague "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" was more literal than it was metaphorical). Belkar will stop breathing before the end of the year. He will not start breathing anew ever. This creates two options: Death, then latter raised as undead. Death.
There is no metaphorical "The old Belkar stops breathing, because he's no longer himself/new man." stichk. He's going to die. The how, when, and the aftermath thereof are up for debate.

[Raging Gene Ray]

If Belkar can incapacitate the rest of his allies before fighting Bozzok and Crystal, which shouldn't be too hard, all he has to do it take down Crystal to keep them from sneak attacking him, and he has a pretty good shot at Bozzok. Especially if he breaks out his Barbarian rage.


The problem with this is that Crystal/Bozzok need only get one shot in to kill Haley off. In the one or two rounds Belkar might spend slaughtering the thieves knocking down the door, it will have become too late.

[Zevox]

The problem with this is that Crystal/Bozzok need only get one shot in to kill Haley off. In the one or two rounds Belkar might spend slaughtering the thieves knocking down the door, it will have become too late.
True. But with Bozzok and Crystal out of the way, Belkar and Celia would have Haley's body, and with her being recently deceased, she'll be cheaper and easier to raise than Roy. So not all that big of a deal ultimately.

Actually, this may be a method used to further delay Roy's resurrection, if the group has enough money to pay for one, but not the other. Then they'll have to meet up with Durkon, Elan, and possibly Vaarsuvius to pool resources or find another way to raise the cash.

Zevox

[RMS Oceanic]

I am certain that, by year's end, Belkar will have assumed a form that no longer requires breath to survive, most likely after death.

Maybe he gets reincarnated as a Warforged! :smalltongue:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Then they'll have to meet up with Durkon.


You're right...possibly foreshadowed by Roy's comment "Think of this as a game of tag and Durkon is base." The Cleric might just be willing to cast Raise Dead (It's only one spell level above sending...he might be able to cast it) for free (except, of course, for the material component), and join the party now that he knows his Church wants him dead and there's nowhere else for him to go.

[Kish]

I am certain that, by year's end, Belkar will have assumed a form that no longer requires breath to survive, most likely after death.
All those theories ignore the fact that the Oracle also said, "Not long for the world." Warforged, vampires, and so on may not breathe, but they're still in the world.

[RMS Oceanic]

"Not long for this world" is a metaphor for "Gonna die soon". It doesn't literally mean he'll never interact with the material plane again.

[Kish]

Well, if you assert it, it must be true. :smalltongue:

[Ted The Bug]

Yes, Belkar will still die. He might redeem himself from the purely senseless killing of Solk Lorkyurg, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) but I doubt it...

Actually, I felt Belkar had more depth than most people gave him credit for... While he is a stone cold killer, up until Solk bought it, he limited himself to killing people and creatures who were actually a threat to him in one form or another.

Goblins? The OotS has no access to interment camps. Releasing them back into the wild could lead to ambushes.
Elan? It was a joke, and Elan makes him laugh. Elan is probably Belkar's best friend, and possibly his ONLY friend.
The Village of the Dirt Farmers? Also a joke, said to lighten the mood.
Bandits? They attacked first. That's why it's called an ambush.
The Guard? Belkar was wrongly and illegally imprisoned. What assurances does he have that he won't be tortured for someone's amusement?
The Oracle? Textbook case of provocation. :smallbiggrin:

Solk's murder was the only killing that can't be justified. Sure, several of his other killings and attemts were on shaky ground, but a good attorney should be able to cut him a deal. Solk was the one killing that was really "out-of-character" for the Belkster.

In 'Origin', he kills a bunch of people in the tavern.

[Ridureyu]

Belkar's death is just a metaphor. His attitude is dying. Just like Roy didn't die. His time in Celestia is just a metaphor for recalling his past. In fact, the whole comic is an extended dream sequence and the only "real" person is Dorukon. The comic will end when:
We discover that the whole thing was a vision produced by a Divination spell in which Dorukon inquires what he should have for breakfast. The ultimate answer is: Half a grapefruit, 3 strips of bacon, 2 waffles, 6 pancakes, and a triple order of hashbrowns (slathered, smothered, covered, and diced).

And then Bob Newhart weaks up, right?

[phoamslinger]

oooh. cool idea.

Belkar is a sexy shoeless god of war.

all he needs is a couple worshippers, a little ascension and presto!

do avatars need to breathe?


I'd worship him. he's the main character I read the strip for :smalltongue:

[Zeful]

"Not long for this world" is a metaphor for "Gonna die soon". It doesn't literally mean he'll never interact with the material plane again.

By that logic, Belkar isn't going to die. Because "take his last breath" is a metaphor for renewal. Belkar will assume a new identity at the comics end, and will live on to be the same homocidal jerk he was in comic 1.

Belkar is going to die. He's going to stay dead. Deal.

[werik]

I'm actually surprised to be the first (it seems) to mention this theory, but I'm not entirely convinced that all of the Oracle's predictions will necessarily prove infallible. Many people have pointed out that the Oracle has had a one-hundred percent track record, which is true and if it weren't for Roy's analysis in # 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) I would be completely sold. However, Roy conjectures that it is entirely possible that the Oracle did not look into the future to see if the memory charm would work on Roy or not. I admit that it is entirely possible that the Oracle does know that the memory charm would not work on him and decided to pretend like it would anyway, but we simply don't know if that's the case. If Roy is correct, however, there is an interesting possibility: Roy could prove that the Oracle is fallible. The only manner that I could think of him doing this is if Roy went and killed the Oracle. In theory, the Oracle would not know that it would happen, having predicted that he would be devoured by a druid in 571 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). Roy's ability to remember that detail would lead to prove that one of the Oracle's prophecies ("When will I next die?") is incorrect, and, therefore, his prophecy about Belkar could also be incorrect.

Whether this event is probable or not is a different story, but it is certainly possible.

But if Belkar does breathe his last breath (as I tend to believe will be the case), I hope that he comes back as an intelligent (for Belkar) undead. Belkar is too awesome in the strip, even if he is a horrible person.

[Zeful]

Roy assumed that the oracle didn't bother looking into the future. This indicates that Roy thinks the oracle assumes that the memory charm will work despite the dismissal, and it obviously doesn't. It's unlikely that the oracle is wrong, it's more likely that the oracle is careless what with being able to see the future and all.

[Sovjohn]

Mmm...Belkar, being assaulted by a vampire lord...And turned into a vampire, a la Anti-Heroes (the comic, the one inspired by OotS)...who'd have to avoid sunlight of course. And then would go around as "the dark monster thing" accomplish of Xykon, with an umbrella that'd cover him from light =)))

Seriously, many possibilities exist - leaving the D&D rules and universe aside, and accounting the homebrew stuff, Giant can take about dozens of different routes with Belkar.

And I suspect he's gonna fine-tune the routes to the circumstances, as he has done in the past with several forum "questions" being answered in-comic in a timely manner.

So, even if Belkar dies, his future fate is one of very many :smallbiggrin:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

In 'Origin', he kills a bunch of people in the tavern.

Yeah, but once again, Belkar was seriously outnumbered! We'll never know who started the fight, and since players LOVE to add "Weapon Focus: Halfling/Gnome/Kobold" to their Feat List, do you really think Belkar shouldn't have the right to defend himself?

[Zeful]

Mmm...Belkar, being assaulted by a vampire lord...And turned into a vampire, a la Anti-Heroes (the comic, the one inspired by OotS)...who'd have to avoid sunlight of course. And then would go around as "the dark monster thing" accomplish of Xykon, with an umbrella that'd cover him from light =)))

Seriously, many possibilities exist - leaving the D&D rules and universe aside, and accounting the homebrew stuff, Giant can take about dozens of different routes with Belkar.

And I suspect he's gonna fine-tune the routes to the circumstances, as he has done in the past with several forum "questions" being answered in-comic in a timely manner.

So, even if Belkar dies, his future fate is one of very many :smallbiggrin:

That's probably the best "oracle's wrong" theory I've seen.

Belkar is the MiTD! From the future!

Note. If belkar is raised. It can't be in a form capable of speech. Even if they don't need to breath to live, they still need to breath to speak, violating the Oracle's prediction.

[Hydro Globus]

"Braaaaaains!"