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theonesin
2008-11-14, 05:09 PM
In the Evil campaign we recently started, I decided to play a Druid for the first time ever. But because of time constraints, I never got to pick out my feats(though the battles we got into we easy enough without them for me).

My character is currently level 6 and took the Shapeshifter variant(I didn't want to deal with an animal companion), with 6 feats to choose(1 for a new character, 1 for being human, 2 from levels, and 2 from flaws), and my stats are 14, 13, 12, 11, 11, 11(yes, I know they are crappy, but I haven't been able to get a hold of the DM to ask for a reroll).

Help?

Saph
2008-11-14, 05:40 PM
Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning are the obvious starters. Normally I'd recommend Companion Spellbond/Natural Bond, but you haven't got a companion, so they're out. You can take Natural Spell at 6th.

That still leaves 3 spare feats which are pretty much up to you. Track is handy if you haven't got a Ranger. Improved Toughness will help bump up your mediocre HP score. Craft Wondrous Item can be useful if you have a lot of downtime.

In your case I'd recommend going the Summoning route, since with your low physical stats you won't do well in melee.

- Saph

monty
2008-11-14, 05:40 PM
Do you need Natural Spell with the shapeshift variant?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 05:42 PM
Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning are the obvious starters. Normally I'd recommend Companion Spellbond/Natural Bond, but you haven't got a companion, so they're out. You can take Natural Spell at 6th.

That still leaves 3 spare feats which are pretty much up to you. Track is handy if you haven't got a Ranger. Improved Toughness will help bump up your mediocre HP score. Craft Wondrous Item can be useful if you have a lot of downtime.

You'll actually be okay with those stats. Druids can manage with weaker ability scores than any other class in the game - put your top score in Wisdom and your second-highest in Con, and you'll be okay. Shapeshift. No Wildshape, no Natural Spell. Get a re-roll. Without at least 15 in your casting stat...just re-roll.

theonesin
2008-11-14, 05:42 PM
Natural Spell does not work with the Shapeshifter variant.

Saph
2008-11-14, 05:44 PM
Shapeshift. No Wildshape, no Natural Spell. Get a re-roll. Without at least 15 in your casting stat...just re-roll.

Oh yeah, forgot. That leaves you another spare feat, then.

By the book, you're not allowed a re-roll unless your highest stat is 13 or under (which the OP's isn't). You can still manage with a 14 Wis - druids don't use Save DCs for much anyway.

- Saph

PS - C'mon, the stats stuff was up there for maybe 30 seconds before I edited it out. Give me a chance. :P

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 05:46 PM
Oh yeah, forgot. That leaves you another spare feat, then.

By the book, you're not allowed a re-roll unless your highest stat is 13 or under (which the OP's isn't). You can still manage with a 14 Wis - druids don't use Save DCs for much anyway.

- SaphTotal modifier of +4.

theonesin
2008-11-14, 05:47 PM
Like I was saying, I don't know if I can get a reroll at all(or even in time for the game tonight). I can't reroll on my own because the DM wanted us to roll our stats in front of him, and like I said, I haven't been able to get a hold of him.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-14, 05:48 PM
Middle Age and 4th level point: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 12, no need to reroll.

I would strongly recommend getting the animal companion. It's one of the most powerful things about the Druid class, and will probably be the best combatant in the party. Take the feat Natural Bond (CV) and get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3), you'll get to count your whole Druid level for its extra HD and other benefits. Give it Ability Focus: Poison and Virulent Poison (SS), maybe Power Attack and Leap Attack afterward. Every encounter of a single big bruiser monster will have to be two of them instead, because that thing will solo one of them.

For your feats, Natural Spell at 6 is set in stone for every Druid who can Wild Shape. You should get Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning, maybe get Imbued Summoning (PH2) and Metamagic School Focus (CM) and use Enrage Animal (SC) for the attached buff. That leaves your level 3 feat, which should be Natural Bond because you don't want to give up that animal companion. What evil character wouldn't want a salivating, poison-soaked, flesh eating dinosaur to sic on his enemies?

Get a Lesser Rod of Extend to use with Greater Magic Fang (+1 to all) on your companion, and prepare Creeping Cold twice for the other two daily uses.

Saph
2008-11-14, 05:49 PM
Total modifier of +4.

I know. Still doesn't allow you a re-roll. Has to be less than +1 for that, if I remember right.

- Saph

theonesin
2008-11-14, 05:54 PM
I know an animal companion can be powerful(in a previous campaign, the druid's wolf was stronger than my fighter...), but I still consider myself a relative newbie at DnD and feel like it would be too much work right now trying to effectively keep track of two characters at once.

mikethepoor
2008-11-14, 06:00 PM
OP, is that 14 a natural die roll or the result of applying your level-up point at 4th level?

theonesin
2008-11-14, 06:03 PM
The stats I posted are what I rolled.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-14, 06:17 PM
If you get a re-roll, see if you can get him to use a "roll 3d6 six times and arrange as necessary, counting the lowest die result as if it was a 6" method. It rolls consistently usable stats with good odds of producing at least one exceptional ability. :smallwink:

theonesin
2008-11-14, 06:21 PM
Well, I don't remember exactly how he did it, but for our stats he had us rolling 4 d8's, once for each stat. I don't know how he combined them, but I rolled at least one 1 each time.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-14, 06:23 PM
Your stats would be fine if you were going to get Wild Shape. I'd recommend taking the Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) variant instead of Shapeshifter. That way your intolerable physical stats get replaced by those of your current form, plus you get Rage and Fast Movement. You can also make use of Natural Spell, and feats like Extra Rage.

Like I said, start out Middle Age and with your 4th level point you've got Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 12.

theonesin
2008-11-14, 06:27 PM
Like I've said, I haven't played Druids before, and during our character-creation session(the one where I was rushed and couldn't pick my feats), the DM, another player, and I were discussing for a while which would be better: Wild Shape, or Shapeshifting. I kept thinking that if went with Wild Shape (I'd have taken Druidic Avenger with it), that I'd be stuck with nothing to do once I used up my Wild Shapes and Rages.

monty
2008-11-14, 06:29 PM
Like I've said, I haven't played Druids before, and during our character-creation session(the one where I was rushed and couldn't pick my feats), the DM, another player, and I were discussing for a while which would be better: Wild Shape, or Shapeshifting. I kept thinking that if went with Wild Shape (I'd have taken Druidic Avenger with it), that I'd be stuck with nothing to do once I used up my Wild Shapes and Rages.

At level 6, you'll have 2 wildshapes per day for 12 hours total. Assuming you rest for 8 hours every day, that's only 4 hours where you would be without it (at level 7, you can be in wildshape for the whole adventuring day, and at 8, you can keep it up 24/7). And you still have spellcasting, remember.

theonesin
2008-11-14, 06:32 PM
I've also never played a caster who had to prepare spells before either.


On another note, and I don't know if it matters, but the rest of the party is made up of the following:

Dread Necromancer (is that a Prestige Class? I think he's just a Sorcerer until then)

Barbarian

And another Druid (going, or I think he reached it now, Blighter)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 06:34 PM
Ugh. Odd party. Dread Necros(base class, but spontaneous like a sorc) and Barbarians are great out of the box, Shapeshift Druids and Blighters are nerfed.

monty
2008-11-14, 06:35 PM
I've also never played a caster who had to prepare spells before either.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

Not the strongest variant, but much less paperwork.

theonesin
2008-11-14, 06:39 PM
I didn't know when we were discussing the benefits and drawbacks of Wild Shape vs. Shapeshift that Wild Shape could be used that often. The way we were looking at it was that Wild Shape would be used up in like one battle and then I'd be stuck without much to do since Druids can't cast as many spells. I wasn't aware that you got that many more uses of it and for increasing amounts of time.


I really wish I could start my character over now...

KIDS
2008-11-14, 07:08 PM
Since you have a dex score of 13, you could build around the bonus "virtual" feats that you get in shapeshift forms. Perhaps something like:

1. Spell Focus: Conjuration
1B. Augment Summoning
3. Dodge
4. (bonus Mobility while in Predator Form)
6. Spring Attack

If you don't like that chain, maybe you could instead take Track and Improved Toughness for a more general ability. Improved Grapple, Improved Natural Attack (Bite) or Power Attack are also good. Consider dipping Monk (better) or Ninja (ok) for Wis to AC bonus and sudden strike/unarmed damage/flurry.
Wild Cohort (requires lvl 3+) can get you back an animal companion if you want one.

I also want to say that Shapeshift is a great thing and you shouldn't worry about not taking Wild Shape instead. While Wild Shape is a ton more powerful (read: massively overpowered), this one should serve you just fine in a much simpler way - and remember that even without it, you still have the awesome power of 9 levels of full casting behind you.

If your wisdom score is ever too low for casting spells of that level, multiclass into something melee oriented like Barbarian. Rage fits with animal forms anyway.

Also check out Shapeshift druid's optimization handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=650144) at WotC forums.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-14, 07:09 PM
Dread Necromancer is a base class from Heroes of Horror. Good for debuffing and summoning/creating undead minions. Amazing if you stack fear effects, as in capable of soloing entire adventures. I'd say take the feat Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis and designate him as the "party healer" since he can do an infinite amount of negative energy curing between encounters and spontaneously casts Inflict spells. He'll probably take that feat too if he's not making a Necropolitan, so he's likely to go that route for his own benefit anyway.

Blighter is a horrible class in general IMO, just because of the prerequisites. Maybe if you Theurge it with something that will keep you viable it would be decent, but as it is he'd be better off going with Ur-Priest. The Deforestation requirement alone makes it unplayable for a PC, all of its abilities appear geared toward posing a threat to PCs rather than going adventuring. Seriously, when is a PC Blighter going to ever use the Unbond ability? He would be much better off using the Hunter Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) variant and taking Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm. A Druid 5 can qualify for it with only one feat, and he could make Sand Golem and Salt Mummy minions.


As for your character, the Shapeshifter variant is something that DMs force Druids to use to make the class less powerful. Wild Shape is infinitely better, especially with those ability scores. For your spells, just get stuff that will take care of what melee attacks can't handle. Good spells would include Entangle, Barkskin, Produce Flame (delivered via natural weapons), Bull's Strength, Splinterbolt (SC), (Extended) Creeping Cold (SC), Call Lightning, Daylight, Stone Shape, and the various Summon Nature's Ally spells.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-14, 07:13 PM
I didn't know when we were discussing the benefits and drawbacks of Wild Shape vs. Shapeshift that Wild Shape could be used that often. The way we were looking at it was that Wild Shape would be used up in like one battle and then I'd be stuck without much to do since Druids can't cast as many spells. I wasn't aware that you got that many more uses of it and for increasing amounts of time.


I really wish I could start my character over now...

Show up to the game with a Druidic Avenger instead of a Shapeshifter. If they ask about it, say you were initially tricked into going with the crappy Shapeshifter variant and you've changed your mind.

Leon
2008-11-15, 01:31 AM
Show up to the game with a Druidic Avenger instead of a Shapeshifter. If they ask about it, say you were initially tricked into going with the crappy Shapeshifter variant and you've changed your mind.

That is but your opinion, i can happily say the same for a Core druid - only thing useful to me on a Core Druid is spell casting and maybe a companion

Shapeshift is in particular good for someone newish to the game and not used to the staggering array of choice that is open to a Wildshape Druid.
It keeps it simple a smooth with a Set Forms that are expanded upon as you progress in level

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-15, 02:53 AM
Coincidentally, I was thinking of starting a similar thread due to having problems picking feats for my Shapeshifter Druid: http://mydndgame.com/?action=character-sheet&character=294 (I picked this version because I didn't want the book-keeping which normal Druids have, and I wanted to play as a less broken version of the class, so I'm not going to change Dax from being a Shapeshifter). I disagree about this version being a poor choice as well (so far, I've been useful in combat). I was thinking of taking Scribe scroll for storing spells like Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison which I won't need that often at level 3. Would this be a good choice? (I want to keep the Beast Totem (Displacer Beast) feat due to how many spells it works with (admittedly, the DM said he isn't planning on using many spellcasters, so I may change it).

theonesin
2008-11-15, 04:26 AM
Luckily, we didn't play the Evil campaign tonight.

Anyway, my DM has allowed me to make a new character, and I actually rolled good stats this time: 17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 12. I'm thinking that I will still play a Druid, but will go with using Wild Shape as normal, and will give a try at using an animal companion. Character is still level 6.

With that said, how can I make the most of this? Where should I put those stats? What feats should I take(again, I'll have 6 to choose)? And are there any worthwhile Prestige Classes to go for?

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-15, 05:10 AM
For stats, I'd personally go for Wis, Con, Int, Str, Dex, Cha in that order. (A lot of people would recommend starting at Middle Age or Ol dfor the mental stats, but I never liked that approach due to thinking that you should be Epic level by 34 if you're adventuring, and physical stats may have a use in come cases). Feat-wise, Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning are useful if you intend to use a lot of Summon Nature's Ally spells, Augment Healing could be useful for boosting your healing ability, and you may want to look at page 153 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf if you want some extra spell options. Ashbound is great for Summoning as well.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 06:04 AM
Human, Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12, counting 4th level point on Wis.

2 flaws: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning
Human: Augment Healing
1st: Companion Spellbond
3rd: Natural Bond
6th: Natural Spell

13,000 gp:
Periapt of Wisdom +2 (4k)
Lesser Rod of Extend (3k)
Ring of Protection +1 (2k)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750)
Gloves of the Starry Sky (1100) (MIC p204)
Handy Haversack (2k)
150 gp remaining for miscellaneous gear

Spells Prepared (5/5/4/3), DC 15 + Spell Level
0- Dawn (SC), Create Water, Light, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic
1- Entangle x2, Produce Flame, Wall of Smoke, Enrage Animal (SC)
2- Mass Snake's Swiftness (SC), Splinterbolt (SC), Creeping Cold x2 (SC)
3- Greater Magic Fang, Cure Moderate Wounds, Blindsight (SC)

Switch out spells prepared to summon a Lion or Black Bear, and cast Enrage Animal on it (don't concentrate for duration). Enrage Animal is also a useful buff for your animal companion, get a few more prepared if you end up wanting to use it more often. The Wand of Lesser Vigor heals 11 hp/charge over 11 rounds, great for healing up between encounters.

Animal Companion:
{table]Fleshraker Dinosaur
Size/Type Medium Animal
Hit Dice (HP) 8d8+16 (52)
Initiative +5
Speed 50'
Armor Class 25 (+5 Dex, +10 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple +6/+10
Attack* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5 and poison)
Full Attack* 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+5 plus poison) and bite
+6 melee (1d6+3) and tail +6 melee (1d6+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach 5'/5'
Special Attacks Leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+3
Special Qualities Low-light vision, scent, link, share spells, evasion, devotion
Saves Fort +8, Ref +11, Will +4
Abilities Str 19, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills Hide +17 (+19 in forested areas), Jump +25
Feats Improved Natural Attack (claw), Track, Virulent Poison[/table]
*counting a +1 Enhancement from Extended Greater Magic Fang
It cannot use its tail and bite attacks against the same opponent in one round.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 18, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-15, 06:09 AM
Now that I think about it, a Displacer Beast Totem doesn't work with a Neutral Good Druid. Does anyone have any other ideas for boosting my character's defences?

goram.browncoat
2008-11-15, 06:17 AM
Luckily, we didn't play the Evil campaign tonight.

Anyway, my DM has allowed me to make a new character, and I actually rolled good stats this time: 17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 12. I'm thinking that I will still play a Druid, but will go with using Wild Shape as normal, and will give a try at using an animal companion. Character is still level 6.

With that said, how can I make the most of this? Where should I put those stats? What feats should I take(again, I'll have 6 to choose)? And are there any worthwhile Prestige Classes to go for?

Personally I would try to go for aberration wildshape. It is great and also fits well for an evil druid. Enhance wildshape (spell compendium?) allows you to pick up some cool (ex) abilities that aberrations have. Aberrations are also the prime forms for venomfire abuse at high levels (if your DM allows venomfire, its crazy powerfull) with forms that outperform even the fleshraker in terms of poisonous attacks. Another benefit is that many aberations can speak so you can still communicate with the party while wildshaped (Still take natural spell though)

So i would take aberation blood as either my first or third level feat (take the grapple bonus or spot bonus), natural spell as sixth and aberration wildshape later at ninth (earlier isnt all that usefull). Since you have alot of feats to pick i'd consider taking aberrant reach as well (+5ft reach for -1 atk). Good old improved initiative is also never bad as a feat, for practically any character. Alternatively you could go the spellfocus(conj), augment summoning route with your extra feats. Though personally ive never been a big summon natures ally fan.

Consider saving up to buy a monks belt (DMG) with wildling clasp (MIC) to make up for generally poor AC in wildshape form. Or alternatively dip into monk for one level (only if it doesnt give multiclass xp penalties) to pick up the AC bonus as well as improved grapple, though this will offcourse slow down your spellcasting a little.

Depending on wether or not you plan to focus on casting or wildshaped fighting, i'd even consider sticking the 17 in con and 15 in wis instead of the other way around. But maybe thats just me, I'm crazy about hitpoints :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 06:20 AM
Now that I think about it, a Displacer Beast Totem doesn't work with a Neutral Good Druid. Does anyone have any other ideas for boosting my character's defences?

Edit: Oops, I forgot you were using the Shapeshift variant...

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-15, 06:22 AM
As I said, I don't have a companion or any interest in getting one due to using a Shapeshifter Druid for the reduced brokeness and book-keeping. Also, I can't use a shiled with Predator form.

( Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestion was concerned with boosting familiars while using a Tower Shield.)

Leon
2008-11-15, 09:26 AM
Luckily, we didn't play the Evil campaign tonight.

Anyway, my DM has allowed me to make a new character, and I actually rolled good stats this time: 17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 12. I'm thinking that I will still play a Druid, but will go with using Wild Shape as normal, and will give a try at using an animal companion. Character is still level 6.

With that said, how can I make the most of this? Where should I put those stats? What feats should I take(again, I'll have 6 to choose)? And are there any worthwhile Prestige Classes to go for?

Stay with Shapeshift and see if you can use the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)
feat to gain a Companion

Feat Idea's
Wild Cohort
Natural Bond
Improved Natural Attack (Bite) - At lvl 6
Extend Spell
Corrupt Spell
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summons



Out of interest what flaws do you have

theonesin
2008-11-15, 01:33 PM
The flaws I was thinking about taking were the one that takes a penalty to spot and listen(or maybe search is in there. I don't remember), and the one that takes a -2 penalty to any ability score(I'd be choosing Charisma).

As far as summoning is concerned, trying to keep track of one extra character is enough for me, so I don't think I'll bother using the Summon Nature's Ally spells.

half eaten oreo
2008-11-15, 02:23 PM
I currently have a shapeshift druid in one of my campaign, and he has focused mostly on grappling. Has Str as his primary attribute, wis secondary. For feats he has the grapple line, and superior unarmed strike I believe. He recently got ferocious slayer form and he seems to be a grappling powerhouse.

He's still a pretty good caster (18 wis with stat enhancers). His summons are not a strong as they could be with augment summoning, but they're still useful enough.

Edit: just noticed you're playing a normal druid now, so nvm. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-15, 02:40 PM
I'm still interrested in Shapeshifter feat advice.:smalltongue: To be fair, I'd sooner avoid things like grappling due to how long it takes to get anything done using it. I was thinking of getting an Initiate feat, but I can't find any which suit the character that well.

theonesin
2008-11-15, 02:55 PM
One of my original thoughts for when I first started trying to make my Druid(before the Shapeshifter variant popped up) was to go with Master of Many Forms PrC.

If I went that route, would there be any changes to the sorts of feats I should take? Or where I should put my stat points? If I went with this, I'd be a Druid 5, MoMF 1 when I make my character.


Edit: While I wouldn't mind some thoughts on the above, I'm thinking that I'll just stick to being a pure Druid. That Venomfire stuff sounds awesome, and I wouldn't be able to abuse it as much if I went with MoMF.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-15, 10:40 PM
If you're going to do a Master of Many Forms build, I'd suggest going with Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) over Druid. That actually makes an overpowered combatant by level 9 with Cave Troll form.

I wouldn't take Inattentive, Spot and Listen are skills that a Druid is and should be spectacular at. Your new ability scores currently don't qualify you for Pathetic, either. I'd probably get Slow, since it wouldn't apply to your Wild Shape forms and you can cast Longstrider, and Murky-Eyed since it won't come up often enough to matter all that much.

One idea for a non-summoner Druid would be to make a Maenad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#maenads) and get the feats Aberration Blood (LoM) to have Aberration Wild Shape (LoM) at level 9 and get Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) at level 12. That way you can Wild Shape into a Beholder, and spend one use of Metamorphic Transfer to gain its entire Eye Rays supernatural ability for the entire duration. Pick up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, maybe even Zen Archery (CW), and stick to ranged spells like Produce Flame and Splinterbolt until then. Note that Produce Flame is a noninstantaneous magical fire, so anyone damaged by it would risk catching on fire as per the DMG page 303.

theonesin
2008-11-21, 02:54 PM
Animal Companion:
{table]Fleshraker Dinosaur
Size/Type Medium Animal
Hit Dice (HP) 8d8+16 (52)
Initiative +5
Speed 50'
Armor Class 25 (+5 Dex, +10 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple +6/+10
Attack* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5 and poison)
Full Attack* 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+5 plus poison) and bite
+6 melee (1d6+3) and tail +6 melee (1d6+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach 5'/5'
Special Attacks Leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+3
Special Qualities Low-light vision, scent, link, share spells, evasion, devotion
Saves Fort +8, Ref +11, Will +4
Abilities Str 19, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills Hide +17 (+19 in forested areas), Jump +25
Feats Improved Natural Attack (claw), Track, Virulent Poison[/table]
*counting a +1 Enhancement from Extended Greater Magic Fang
It cannot use its tail and bite attacks against the same opponent in one round.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 18, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

I have a question regarding this. I was trying to fill out a character sheet for my animal companion, but I was confused about the information regarding its attack. The book listed it as 1d6+3, but you listed it as 1d6+5. Where did the extra +2 come from?

On a related note, am I correct in thinking that animal companions don't get "skill points", but merely bonuses to some skills like mentioned above?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 02:56 PM
I have a question regarding this. I was trying to fill out a character sheet for my animal companion, but I was confused about the information regarding its attack. The book listed it as 1d6+3, but you listed it as 1d6+5. Where did the extra +2 come from?

On a related note, am I correct in thinking that animal companions don't get "skill points", but merely bonuses to some skills like mentioned above?Probably from the bonus Hit Dice it got, as well as Greater Magic Fang. And no, they do get skill points, but only 1/HD. The bonuses are in addition to that.

theonesin
2008-11-21, 03:06 PM
I still don't understand this HD thing. How exactly does that work?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 03:11 PM
I still don't understand this HD thing. How exactly does that work?I assume you took the Natural Bond feat. You're a level 6 Druid with an effective Druid level for the purpose of your AC of 9. Because it's a Fleshraker, you lose 3 off of your Druid level, bringing it back down to 6. The Fleshraker therefore gains 2 HD. Those HD come with 2d8+2Con HP, 2*.75 (1.5) BAB, 2 good(Fort, Reflex) and one poor(Will) saves, and 2 skill points. It essentially takes 2 levels in "Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType)".

theonesin
2008-11-21, 03:15 PM
Is there a numerical value for "good" and "bad" saves?

monty
2008-11-21, 03:16 PM
Is there a numerical value for "good" and "bad" saves?

Good is 1/2 per level (so +1 every 2 levels), and an additional 2 at level 1. Bad is 1/3 per level (+1 every 3 levels). Remember to always round down.

theonesin
2008-11-21, 03:24 PM
So, my Fleshraker at HD 6 will have 7 Fort, 9 Reflex, and 3 Will, and then at HD 7 will have the above, but with a 4 Will?

Edit: I'm confused about what was said earlier about my AC gaining 2 HD. According to the chart for AC leveling on d20srd.org, a 6th level Druid's companion gets +4 HD. If I take Natural Bond, giving me a Druid 9 for this purpose, but then using a Fleshraker drops it back down to 6, shouldn't I still get a +4 HD?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-21, 05:01 PM
I assume you took the Natural Bond feat. You're a level 6 Druid with an effective Druid level for the purpose of your AC of 9. Because it's a Fleshraker, you lose 3 off of your Druid level, bringing it back down to 6. The Fleshraker therefore gains 2 HD. Those HD come with 2d8+2Con HP, 2*.75 (1.5) BAB, 2 good(Fort, Reflex) and one poor(Will) saves, and 2 skill points. It essentially takes 2 levels in "Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType)".

This is incorrect. Natural Bond gives a +3 to your effective Druid level, but never higher than your character level, similar to how Practiced Spellcaster works. A Fleshraker imposes a Level -3 penalty for being a stronger companion, but the +3 from Natural Bond can be applied after this to make your effective Druid level equal your character level. You count as a 6th level Druid for purposes of your Animal Companion's bonuses and HD.

Forget what the Fleshraker's entry in the book says for attack and damage bonuses, just look at how many dice each attack does. In the stat block I gave, I adjusted its bonuses for a higher Str score and for a +1 Greater Magic Fang on all of its natural weapons.

When your Animal Companion gains additional Hit Dice, it levels up the exact same way a character does. Animal Hit Dice get Cleric/Rogue/Monk BAB, so look at any of those class tables at the same level as the number of HD your AC has. Animal Hit Dice grant the same base saves as Ranger for normal animals, or Monk for Dire animals, so look at that class table at the same level as the number of HD your AC has to determine base saves. Animal HD grant 2 skill points/level, but it has a negative Int modifier, so it only gets one skill point per HD gained. It still gets a feat at every 3rd HD just like a character gets a feat at every 3 levels.

theonesin
2008-11-21, 05:30 PM
Ok, that made a lot more sense.

Quick question about feats. Are you stuck with the feats that the AC comes with, or can you change them? I'd like to switch Track for something that would be more useful (haven't played a game yet where we had track anything).

Ungvar
2008-11-21, 10:43 PM
You can't switch out AC feats. Switching out PC feats represents "retraining", something that is unavailable for animals. You can teach them different tricks, but that's it.

Besides, you want to keep track.

Also, I really wouldn't count on exploiting the venomfire cheese from Serpent Kingdoms. If you explain to the DM what it can eventually do, he won't allow it. If you use it without making the DM aware, it will piss him off. And it will probably piss off the other players, too.

I agree that you shouldn't sacrifice Spot/Listen for a feat. Knowing where the enemy is before they attack is a great advantage. "It's half the battle", as they say.

If you want to dip into Master of Many Forms for a few levels, put the stats the same way you would as for straight druid. If you want to go all 10 levels of MoMF, you might want to make Con your best stat, w/ Wis second. I'd recommend you go w/ two or three levels of MoMF, and then resume straight Druid. You'll be able to turn into any humanoid, giant-type, or monstrous humanoid up to size large as a move action, and be able to speak in any form. Take the same feats you would as a straight druid.

If you go MoMF all the way, you really have to keep track of tons of forms you can become to maximize your effectiveness.

And don't shy away from Summon Nature's Ally, it's incredibly versatile and useful.