Kwai Chang Caine v.s Cthulhu

[ArlEammon]

http://www.electricferret.com/battle/cbub_matches/1114-161727.php

Kwai Chang Caine has the power to prevent Cthulhu from entering the mortal plane, if only he can invoke a Llama spell before The Stars Are Right. Kwai Chang Caine ahs the power, of a Shimbala Master in this CBUB.

Caine has been asked by Tibetan monks to investigate infiltration of monasteries throughout the world by evil cultists with strange powers that resist all excorcisms and mystical powers from the Shaolin. Caine only has the clue of an Elder sign at over a dozen murder sites of Ancients to lead him on the investigation, as well as a link with a Cthulhu cultist that has told him to investigate the nation of Portugal. Kwai Chang Caine's son is held captive by the Deep Ones. If he can find out where in Portugal Peter is, and save him within three months, then he will discover who the enemy is, Cthulhu, oldest foe of the Shaolin.(In my imagination.)

Then, he has to hightail it back to China and perform an ancient ritual to get rid of Cthulhu. IN Three Months, the Stars will be right, whether he saves Peter or not.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Kwai Chang Caine has the power to prevent Cthulhu from entering the mortal plane, if only he can invoke a Llama spell before The Stars Are Right. Kwai Chang Caine ahs the power, of a Shimbala Master in this CBUB.

Cthulu is already on the mortal plane.

He's asleap in an underwater city near Antarctica. That counts as the mortal plane in any definition I've heard of.

[Thiel]

Let's see. On one side we have an Elder god known for driving people insane just by looking at him.
On the other side we have some random kung-fu dude.

It's not a question of who wins, but of how long the fu dude lasts.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, Kung Fu is not the ideal solution to ancient evils.

The thing you want to deal with that sort of thing is ninjas.

Or, more specifically, one ninja.

[Thiel]

Yeah, Kung Fu is not the ideal solution to ancient evils.

The thing you want to deal with that sort of thing is ninjas.

Or, more specifically, one ninja.

A blind ninja to be specific.

[charl]

A blind shoggoth ninja to be specific.

There, corrected it for you. :smallwink:

[ArlEammon]

Thing is, Kwai Chang Caine probably won't go insane by looking at Cthulhu....

[Thiel]

Thing is, Kwai Chang Caine probably won't go insane by looking at Cthulhu....

Why not? Everybody else does.

[FoE]

The problem is that Caine was a bloody Mary Sue. He always had the answer to every problem, and no matter who his opponent was (be it a mundane foe or a supernatural one), he was ensured of an easy victory because he developed super-powers at the demand of Plot. Most times he didn't even get out of breath after a fight, even when he was facing down friggin' demons. So it's possible that he'd pull some mystic mumbo-jumbo out of his ass and send Cthulhu to the Shadow Realm, or some other bulls***.

[Thiel]

The problem is that Caine was a bloody Mary Sue. He always had the answer to every problem, and no matter who his opponent was (be it a mundane foe or a supernatural one), he was ensured of an easy victory because he developed super-powers at the demand of Plot. Most times he didn't even get out of breath after a fight, even when he was facing down friggin' demons. So it's possible that he'd pull some mystic mumbo-jumbo out of his ass and send Cthulhu to the Shadow Realm, or some other bulls***.

Luckily, there's no Ed Spelman or Herman Miller to save his butt so it's off to the padded room and the one-size sweater with Caine.

[ArlEammon]

Luckily, there's no Ed Spelman or Herman Miller to save his butt so it's off to the padded room and the one-size sweater with Caine.

Kwai Chang Caine is much more likely to die through being eaten than to succumb to insanity. I'm not saying Kwai Chang Caine would win, but I am saying that he would definitely not go nuts by just investigating Cthulhu.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, I gotta agree that mister octopus face's crazy making abilities are a tad overrated.

I mean, he deals with a boat of ordinary folks, and at least one of them gets out of it alive and (more or less) sane.

That is not an unimpeachable record.

[Thiel]

Yeah, I gotta agree that mister octopus face's crazy making abilities are a tad overrated.

I mean, he deals with a boat of ordinary folks, and at least one of them gets out of it alive and (more or less) sane.

That is not an unimpeachable record.

So he gets eaten instead of going insane? So what, the end result is still the same.
In order to back up that statement, remember that he'll have to fight through a large number of Shoggoth slaves before even getting to Chtulhu. And he'll have to do it with his bare hands. That's abut as efficient as hitting a pile of sand.

[ArlEammon]

So he gets eaten instead of going insane? So what, the end result is still the same.

Not necessarily. Remember, Caine isn't playing Street Fighter with Cthulhu in the ring, he's investigating who the occultists are so he can find the connection to Cthulhu, then he banishes Cthulhu if he makes it past all the nasties.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Well, I dunno, can Caine beat up a slightly inbred dude with a gun? That's basically what a Cthulhu Cultist is.

[ArlEammon]

Well, I dunno, can Caine beat up a slightly inbred dude with a gun? That's basically what a Cthulhu Cultist is.

Yes... Caine can use hadokens.

[Piedmon_Sama]

It's too easy if it's just Caine vs some mooks, though. Have him fight a Deep One (or a Hybrid), one that's maybe a few centuries old so it's tough as a tank and strong as a bull. He just barely wins, and learns to his horror that his son is being held prisoner by a small army of such monsters.

Then have an elderly negro in a fine suit approach him in his despair, and ask him just what exactly he'd be willing to do to save his son....

[ArlEammon]

It's too easy if it's just Caine vs some mooks, though. Have him fight a Deep One (or a Hybrid), one that's maybe a few centuries old so it's tough as a tank and strong as a bull. He just barely wins, and learns to his horror that his son is being held prisoner by a small army of such monsters.

Then have an elderly negro in a fine suit approach him in his despair, and ask him just what exactly he'd be willing to do to save his son....

Nah.. He just has to fight abunch of fish monsters and tentacle reaches that were in the movie Dagon... along with a lot of "ordinary" cultists that can breathe water.... An entire small town in Portugal.... full of hundreds of such monsters.

[Ascension]

then he banishes Cthulhu if he makes it past all the nasties.

See, this is the flaw in your reasoning. Cthulhu isn't something you can banish, no matter how badass you are. You can slow him down for a while, but he's going to be back, and eventually there will come a day when you can't delay him any longer.

But most likely what will happen is that while you're distracted with Cthulhu one of the eleventy-dozen other threats to mankind as a whole will make its move. You're less likely to win ultimately in Lovecraft's universe than in WH40k, and that's saying something.

[ArlEammon]

See, this is the flaw in your reasoning. Cthulhu isn't something you can banish, no matter how badass you are. You can slow him down for a while, but he's going to be back, and eventually there will come a day when you can't delay him any longer.

But most likely what will happen is that while you're distracted with Cthulhu one of the eleventy-dozen other threats to mankind as a whole will make its move. You're less likely to win ultimately in Lovecraft's universe than in WH40k, and that's saying something.

Hm... PM me for a response. I'm not supposed to discuss religion on the board.

[Ascension]

Hm... PM me for a response. I'm not supposed to discuss religion on the board.

Real world religion. I'm not talking about real life, I'm talking about Lovecraft's fictional universe. My personal beliefs in real life would be significantly different.

But in Lovecraft's world, you're screwed, I'm screwed, we're all screwed.

[FoE]

There's no way Cthulhu even gets to rise. Some cultists start trying to raise him, and Caine's monk sense starts going off. He shows up and starts beating them senseless. A shoggoth appears from the shadows .... and promptly explodes.

Peter Caine: Golly gee, pops, how did you kill that monster?

Kwai Chang: I just learned ... to explode things ... with my mind. It's just a pity ... that I can't develop .... the ability ... to talk faster. (five hours later)

[Thiel]

Fictional religion and gods are fair game.

There's no way Cthulhu even gets to rise. Some cultists start trying to raise him, and Caine's monk sense starts going off. He shows up and starts beating them senseless. A shoggoth appears from the shadows .... and promptly explodes.

Peter Caine: Geez, pops, how did you kill that monster?
Kwai Chang: I just learned ... to explode things ... with my mind.

Remember, there's no Ed Spielman or Herman Miller to write his Gary Stuian powers.

[FoE]

I recognize the name Ed Spielman, but who's Herman Miller? :smallconfused:

[ArlEammon]

Remember, there's no Ed Spielman or Herman Miller to write his Gary Stuian powers.

Even without those writers, He is a Shimbala master in the OP....

He can use hadokens and he has mind powers.... like he always has. Or at least I think he has...

[Thiel]

I recognize the name Ed Spielman, but who's Herman Miller? :smallconfused:

The writer and co-producer.

[Mr. Scaly]

Remember, there's no Ed Spielman or Herman Miller to write his Gary Stuian powers.

That's like saying in a Space Marine vs Bruce Lee match up that Lee would win because GW aren't writing the Smurf as an unstoppable juggernaut.

If all Caine has to do is find Peter, beat up some cultists and a few demons, then high tail it back to China then he wins out easily. He beats up cultists and demons all the time. Against Cthulhu himself that's not happening.

[T-O-E]

I think Cthulhu as a whole is over-rated. The thing's head was smashed in by a boat!

All you have to do to stop Cthulhu is to have a bunch of brave sailors wait by the island. The dreams occur and then send them messages to go out and find Ry'leh. Give them weapons and tell them to kill all people who come near until the dreams stop. It's not perfect but it might work. Although, doing so requires knowledge of him and the cult's pretty big...

[GoC]

See, this is the flaw in your reasoning. Cthulhu isn't something you can banish, no matter how badass you are. You can slow him down for a while, but he's going to be back, and eventually there will come a day when you can't delay him any longer.

But most likely what will happen is that while you're distracted with Cthulhu one of the eleventy-dozen other threats to mankind as a whole will make its move. You're less likely to win ultimately in Lovecraft's universe than in WH40k, and that's saying something.

I dunno... Something like Superman should be able to remove Cthulhu's physical body.

[Closet_Skeleton]

In order to back up that statement, remember that he'll have to fight through a large number of Shoggoth slaves before even getting to Chtulhu.

Since when has Cthulu had Shoggoth slaves?

Or had anything to do with Deep Ones for that matter. I know the answer to that one of course, since some dumb movie

Another victory for adaption decay it seems...


That's like saying in a Space Marine vs Bruce Lee match up that Lee would win because GW aren't writing the Smurf as an unstoppable juggernaut.

If a Imperial Guard General can kill a basic space marine, I doubt Bruce Lee would have much trouble. He'd have no chance against a whole tactical squad of space marines or a Force Commander. Of course, the Space Marine could just shoot him with his bolter but any normal human can kill a martial arts master with a gun.

[ArlEammon]

Cthulhu and Dagon are allies.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Cthulhu and Dagon are allies.

Cthulu.

Allies.

Right.

Okay...

I'm pretty sure that lovecraftian horrors are as alien to each other as they are to humanity. At the Mountains of Madness shows that the only reason humanity hasn't been destroyed is that all the far more powerful entities are busy fighting each other.

[ArlEammon]

Cthulu.

Allies.

Right.

Okay...

I'm pretty sure that lovecraftian horrors are as alien to each other as they are to humanity. At the Mountains of Madness shows that the only reason humanity hasn't been destroyed is that all the far more powerful entities are busy fighting each other.

Cthulhu and Dagon are allies.

[warty goblin]

I think Cthulhu as a whole is over-rated. The thing's head was smashed in by a boat!

All you have to do to stop Cthulhu is to have a bunch of brave sailors wait by the island. The dreams occur and then send them messages to go out and find Ry'leh. Give them weapons and tell them to kill all people who come near until the dreams stop. It's not perfect but it might work. Although, doing so requires knowledge of him and the cult's pretty big...

Am I the only person who actually read Call of Cthulhu? The boat ramming had nothing to do with the sailor dude escaping. The Stars were Not Right, and so Cthulhu returned to slumber. They were close to Right, since the sensitive people started flipping out and all, but that's all.

His head also pretty much instantly reformed after being hit by the steamboat IIRC.

The story in general made it abundantly clear that had the Stars been Right, the world would have for all practical purposes ended, and that there was squat anybody could do about it. If this vs. thread operates in anything like the Lovecraftian Mythos and the Stars are Right, you could march down there with all the gods, demons, heroes and Mary Sues you can shake s stick at, and the Great Old Ones will still return and bathe the world in blood, slaughter and anarchy, that's just how it works.

[ArlEammon]

Am I the only person who actually read Call of Cthulhu? The boat ramming had nothing to do with the sailor dude escaping. The Stars were Not Right, and so Cthulhu returned to slumber. They were close to Right, since the sensitive people started flipping out and all, but that's all.

His head also pretty much instantly reformed after being hit by the steamboat IIRC.

The story in general made it abundantly clear that had the Stars been Right, the world would have for all practical purposes ended, and that there was squat anybody could do about it. If this vs. thread operates in anything like the Lovecraftian Mythos and the Stars are Right, you could march down there with all the gods, demons, heroes and Mary Sues you can shake s stick at, and the Great Old Ones will still return and bathe the world in blood, slaughter and anarchy, that's just how it works.

Mary Sues don't exist in Lovecraft's works. Otherwise they wouldn't be Mary Sues.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Mary Sues don't exist in Lovecraft's works. Otherwise they wouldn't be Mary Sues.

Depends.

Many of Lovecraft's protagonists may have been idealised versions of how Lovecraft saw himself, which furfills part of the criteria for being a Mary Sue. The fact that they never win may just be Lovecraft's self-loathing, not a flaw that magically elevates a character above Suedom (because to be honest, giving characters a flaw without actually giving them characterisation is one of the reasons why Mary Sues are such terrible protagonists).

[warty goblin]

Mary Sues don't exist in Lovecraft's works. Otherwise they wouldn't be Mary Sues.

I prefer to think of it the other way around. All the Mary Sues are slumbering beneath the waves. Eventually the stars will align, they will awake and the horror of their unnatural and inhuman presence will drive men into madness.

Cthulhu is a Mary Sue, admit it. The entire story revolves around him even though he never only shows up once, people can't stop thinking about him, his appearence is decidedly unusual, his powers more or less without defined limit, merely by appearing he changes people's lives forever, and the fate of the world rests on his scaly shoulders. Also he drives people insane, a clear hallmark of Mary Suedom. Or Mary Tentacledom as the case may be.

[Paragon Badger]

I prefer to think of it the other way around. All the Mary Sues are slumbering beneath the waves. Eventually the stars will align, they will awake and the horror of their unnatural and inhuman presence will drive men into madness.

Cthulhu is a Mary Sue, admit it. The entire story revolves around him even though he never only shows up once, people can't stop thinking about him, his appearence is decidedly unusual, his powers more or less without defined limit, merely by appearing he changes people's lives forever, and the fate of the world rests on his scaly shoulders. Also he drives people insane, a clear hallmark of Mary Suedom. Or Mary Tentacledom as the case may be.

SRSLY!

Cthulhu is the Borg of Lovecraft's genre. Honestly, there's no fun in an unstoppable protagonist, and there's no fun in an unstoppable antagonist.

[chiasaur11]

SRSLY!

Cthulhu is the Borg of Lovecraft's genre. Honestly, there's no fun in an unstoppable protagonist, and there's no fun in an unstoppable antagonist.

Yeah.

Although Allosaurus stopped him good recently in the arena that matters. The arena of the hearts and minds of AMERICA's voting public.

[warty goblin]

SRSLY!

Cthulhu is the Borg of Lovecraft's genre. Honestly, there's no fun in an unstoppable protagonist, and there's no fun in an unstoppable antagonist.

That's actually what makes Lovecraft fun though, it's like the complete inverse of optimism. You are an insignificant member of an insignificant species awash in a universe vast beyond comprehension, and which is doomed.

[Piedmon_Sama]

That's why Lovecraft primarily stuck to short fiction. You can't have a long, drawn-out novel with a foregone conclusion, but a story with a wordcount in the ten-thousands can make it work. Also his protagonists never actually realize how genuinely hopeless the situation is until the very end, which causes their sanity to fly away; this is why Lovecraft was writing horror, his stories have more in common with The Beating of the Tell-Tale Heart than with more action-oriented sci-fi/fantasy. The point is horror, not to make you go "oh wow, that's badass."

Howard is a better source if this is what you're looking for. He and Lovecraft's tales often seem to take place in some kind of shared world, with references to the same eldritch beings operating behind the scenes. The difference is Howard's protagonists are heroic badasses who generally slaughter the mortal cultists/sorcerer/monster of the week. Other authors have continued to do this, using Lovecraft's mythology to frame stories that are less about horror and more about stopping a villain, so there's really nothing "wrong" with it. Big C himself may be unstoppable, but his mortal servants are fair game.

[Paragon Badger]

That's actually what makes Lovecraft fun though, it's like the complete inverse of optimism. You are an insignificant member of an insignificant species awash in a universe vast beyond comprehension, and which is doomed.

It's not a matter of pessimism or optimism, but tension and predictability. :smalltongue: If every story ends with 'Cthulhu wins.', why read it? I know this was not neccesarily Lovecraft's intention (The goals of the protagonists were to reveal and discover Cthulhu, not to defeat him) but the fanboys make it seem so.

[Piedmon_Sama]

In the stories written by Lovecraft, I'm pretty sure Cthulhu only appears in one and is just mentioned in a few others.

Also, Lovecraft/mythos fanboys are as bad as any other variety. I advise taking their perspectives with a good grain of salt on any fictional universe as they generally have spent way too much time thinking about these things and thus take it far beyond the author's intention. >_>

And now to offend the other half of the board...

[warty goblin]

In the stories written by Lovecraft, I'm pretty sure Cthulhu only appears in one and is just mentioned in a few others.

Also, Lovecraft/mythos fanboys are as bad as any other variety. I advise taking their perspectives with a good grain of salt on any fictional universe as they generally have spent way too much time thinking about these things and thus take it far beyond the author's intention. >_>

And now to offend the other half of the board...

The thing is, that's how the Lovecraft universe works. The insignificant blip of dust that is humanity continues to exist on a thin veneer of normalcy all too easily broken, until the day the Stars are Right, at which point the entire planet is plunged in anarchy, genocide and chaos. There really isn't any fanboyism required to say that, just a basic knowledge of a few of his stories.

[Mr. Scaly]

If a Imperial Guard General can kill a basic space marine, I doubt Bruce Lee would have much trouble. He'd have no chance against a whole tactical squad of space marines or a Force Commander. Of course, the Space Marine could just shoot him with his bolter but any normal human can kill a martial arts master with a gun.

I was, uh, trying to make a point...okay, I'll rephrase.

That's like saying in a Space Marine vs a highschool footballer match up that the footballer would win because GW aren't writing the Smurf as an unstoppable juggernaut. :smallwink:

[RPGuru1331]

The thing is, that's how the Lovecraft universe works. The insignificant blip of dust that is humanity continues to exist on a thin veneer of normalcy all too easily broken, until the day the Stars are Right, at which point the entire planet is plunged in anarchy, genocide and chaos. There really isn't any fanboyism required to say that, just a basic knowledge of a few of his stories.

If we're so insignificant, why is there a day where the Stars are Just Right for us?

Oh oh oh, twisting the brain!

Honestly that's where Lovecraft's crap broke down for me. If we suck so bad, why are they all hanging out here or in our general vicinity?

[Piedmon_Sama]

If we're so insignificant, why is there a day where the Stars are Just Right for us?

Oh oh oh, twisting the brain!

Honestly that's where Lovecraft's crap broke down for me. If we suck so bad, why are they all hanging out here or in our general vicinity?

That's hardly a fair question. We have no idea how many Great Old Ones or Outer Gods there are; the ones featured in the tales may only be a small fraction of those existant. (Also quite a few of the Outer Gods such as Hastur dwell in other worlds and are only vaguely aware of earth's existence).


The thing is, that's how the Lovecraft universe works. The insignificant blip of dust that is humanity continues to exist on a thin veneer of normalcy all too easily broken, until the day the Stars are Right, at which point the entire planet is plunged in anarchy, genocide and chaos. There really isn't any fanboyism required to say that, just a basic knowledge of a few of his stories.

Yeah, but if that's all people hear about I can understand why they get turned off--it seems boring. Lovecraft knew how to ratchet up the dramatic tension by leaving the Cosmic Horror pullbacks for the big finish. Someone who hasn't read the stories will probably not like the sound of them if you spoil the big finish.

[RPGuru1331]

That's hardly a fair question. We have no idea how many Great Old Ones or Outer Gods there are; the ones featured in the tales may only be a small fraction of those existant. (Also quite a few of the Outer Gods such as Hastur dwell in other worlds and are only vaguely aware of earth's existence).

There's only as many as the authors defined. This isn't a hard question, it's not like we're discussing something real.

[Project_Mayhem]

That's hardly a fair question. We have no idea how many Great Old Ones or Outer Gods there are; the ones featured in the tales may only be a small fraction of those existant. (Also quite a few of the Outer Gods such as Hastur dwell in other worlds and are only vaguely aware of earth's existence).

Yeah, only Cthulhu and a few other big world ending bads are actually on earth. The rest are either relatively weak, like eihort or y'golonac, or are light years away in space, like cthuga or Azathoth. That races like the mi-go are extra terrestial suggests that they probably have bases on many other planets. Deep Ones and Ghouls are just altered humans - or vice versa. All the dreamlands stuff is trippy and probably formed out of our subconsious anyway. And then theres Nyarlethotep, who has some kind of masterplan.

[Project_Mayhem]

There's only as many as the authors defined. This isn't a hard question, it's not like we're discussing something real.

no, but that misses the point that the authors never defined the entirity of the universe. They never said there were no beasties elsewhere in the 'verse - indeed they implied it.

[warty goblin]

If we're so insignificant, why is there a day where the Stars are Just Right for us?

Oh oh oh, twisting the brain!

Honestly that's where Lovecraft's crap broke down for me. If we suck so bad, why are they all hanging out here or in our general vicinity?

Nice real estate.

[Piedmon_Sama]

There's only as many as the authors defined. This isn't a hard question, it's not like we're discussing something real.

The Mythos isn't just Lovecraft's; plenty of other authors have added to it, and your "canon" depends on whether you think, say, the stories of August Derleth or Robert Howard fit in. Moreover, even just Lovecraft's stories are only loosely connected--they don't form a totally coherent "world" with an established continuity. Hence the "Cthulhu Mythos" vs "Cthulhu Universe" or whatever. So I still don't see your point as some kind of error on Lovecraft's part.

[Project_Mayhem]

plenty of other authors have added to it, and your "canon" depends on whether you think, say, the stories of August Derleth or Robert Howard fit in.

For example, Derleth didn't happen in the Project Mayhem canon.

However, perversely, the stuff he created did. He just didn't write the stories or add good versus evil ideas to the mythos.So Cthuga and the tentacly Hastur do exist - they just don't suck.

[Neon Knight]

Or had anything to do with Deep Ones for that matter. I know the answer to that one of course, since some dumb movie

Another victory for adaption decay it seems...



Actually, I'm pretty sure the original short story implied that Dagon and Mother Hydra were servants of Cthulhu. I don't think they're Great Old Ones at all, but really powerful and old Deep Ones (a popular interpretation.) I do know that The Shadow Over Innsmouth has a mention of Cthulhu. Let me check my copy.

[Project_Mayhem]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the original short story implied that Dagon and Mother Hydra were servants of Cthulhu. I don't think they're Great Old Ones at all, but really powerful and old Deep Ones (a popular interpretation.) I do know that The Shadow Over Innsmouth has a mention of Cthulhu. Let me check my copy.

I think that 'CoC' was meant to be a rewriting of 'Dagon' to an extent - just a more in depth-exploration of the same idea, which always makes me ifffy about considering him part of the Mythos. I belive the accepted reading is that he's a big deep one though.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Cthulhu is a Mary Sue, admit it. The entire story revolves around him even though he never only shows up once, people can't stop thinking about him, his appearence is decidedly unusual, his powers more or less without defined limit, merely by appearing he changes people's lives forever, and the fate of the world rests on his scaly shoulders. Also he drives people insane, a clear hallmark of Mary Suedom. Or Mary Tentacledom as the case may be.

You see, this is probably the worst thing to come from the TV tropes generation of the internet. It's taken reasonable descriptors of character archetypes and convinced people that they are so vaguly defined that they can be applied to anyone. Mary Sue and Magnificent Bastard are easily the worst offenders.

A Mary Sue is a very specfic term. It's a fan-fiction character inserted into canon to be an author wish-fullfilment. They are traditionally poorly defined and described as being better than canon characters in all ways. A character who is powerful, or is ill defined (FYI, Cthulhu being ill defined works for his characterization), or has some positive qualities, is not a Mary Sue. The day Cthulhu is called a Mary Sue is the day that the term has lost all meaning.

You people keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Piedmon_Sama]

He was joking. >_>

[warty goblin]

You see, this is probably the worst thing to come from the TV tropes generation of the internet. It's taken reasonable descriptors of character archetypes and convinced people that they are so vaguly defined that they can be applied to anyone. Mary Sue and Magnificent Bastard are easily the worst offenders.

A Mary Sue is a very specfic term. It's a fan-fiction character inserted into canon to be an author wish-fullfilment. They are traditionally poorly defined and described as being better than canon characters in all ways. A character who is powerful, or is ill defined (FYI, Cthulhu being ill defined works for his characterization), or has some positive qualities, is not a Mary Sue. The day Cthulhu is called a Mary Sue is the day that the term has lost all meaning.

You people keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Either my Snark-O-Matic needs it's Ironic Trait Exaguration Core replaced, or you need to upgrade your Sarcasm Detector to web 2.0 compatibility, and I suspect it's the later.

It is also ju-ust possible that the demon of Mary Suedom has mutated it's way out the abyss of fan fiction to corrupt the written word in general, as such terms tend to evolve with time.

[GoC]

The story in general made it abundantly clear that had the Stars been Right, the world would have for all practical purposes ended, and that there was squat anybody could do about it. If this vs. thread operates in anything like the Lovecraftian Mythos and the Stars are Right, you could march down there with all the gods, demons, heroes and Mary Sues you can shake s stick at, and the Great Old Ones will still return and bathe the world in blood, slaughter and anarchy, that's just how it works.
Wrong.
Silver Age Superman just moves the stars so that they are no longer Right.:smallbiggrin:

[WalkingTarget]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the original short story implied that Dagon and Mother Hydra were servants of Cthulhu. I don't think they're Great Old Ones at all, but really powerful and old Deep Ones (a popular interpretation.) I do know that The Shadow Over Innsmouth has a mention of Cthulhu. Let me check my copy.

Here's the relevant section during the conversation with Zadok Allen:

Per request, the quote has been spoilered:

"Yield up enough sacrifices an' savage knick-knacks an' harbourage in the taown when they wanted it, an' they'd let well enough alone. Wudn't bother no strangers as might bear tales aoutside - that is, withaout they got pryin'. All in the band of the faithful - Order O' Dagon - an' the children shud never die, but go back to the Mother Hydra an' Father Dagon what we all come from onct ... Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtaga - "

This is the only reference anywhere in Lovecraft to "Mother Hydra" (well, as far as I can remember, it's the only mention in Shadow at least and I don't think she's mentioned in CoC or Dagon).

Edit - I don't see any other specific mentions of "Father Dagon" either, all the other uses of "Dagon" by itself in this story are in reference to the Esoteric Order or to the Hall in which they meet.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, to get back on topic: I don't know about this Caine fellow, but he seems to be pretty kickass in what he does. As far as I know, the thing Cthulhu has going for him is being an entity totally alien to earth and the worl we know of. That is, he is not so much an arcane entity, - though he is described as being a high priest of his race, and casting a spell to make him and his kin sleep until the stars are right,- but made of matter man does (and should) not knoweth about.
So, I reason, it may be possible in Lovecraft's universe that Caine, with his unfathomable powers to research the occult, which he seems to have, judging from what has been said about him, finds out about the metal T'kngr, which only can be found on the planet Hga'rath in the star system of Oughad'jkla. He then forges a sword out of this metal and stabs Cthulhu, who is, as Caine found out, vulnerable to said metal, and ends this threat, and mayve this thread, for good.:smallwink:

[Shosuro Ishii]

He was joking. >_>

If that's true, I apologize....it's sorta hard to tell over the internet. :smalltongue:

Still makes my statement no less true though.

[chiasaur11]

Wrong.
Silver Age Superman just moves the stars so that they are no longer Right.:smallbiggrin:

Or the Doom Marine just rips and tears somebody.

Being huge is no help. It just means you have huge guts.

Speaking of huge guts, I'm pretty sure at least some super robot series have a chance too, what with sheer hotblooded manliness. I mean, I think something that can trash galaxies can take one squid faced nasty smaller than some skyscrapers.

Then there's guys like Rex Libris, Hellboy, and the Goon, who take out this kind of thing as a basic part of their jobs.

Frankly, Lovecraft is not the be all end all of who would win in a fight. That's Squirrel Girl's job.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Frankly, Lovecraft is not the be all end all of who would win in a fight. That's Squirrel Girl's job.

Except the whole point of Lovecraft isn't that his monsters can beat up things from other universes, its that in his universes there's nothing on humanity's side that can beat up his monsters.

[Brother Oni]

Except the whole point of Lovecraft isn't that his monsters can beat up things from other universes, its that in his universes there's nothing on humanity's side that can beat up his monsters.

I thought the Elder Gods were vaguely on humanity's side, or am I mixing up my canon again?

[WalkingTarget]

I thought the Elder Gods were vaguely on humanity's side, or am I mixing up my canon again?

It depends on your definition of canon.

Purely in Lovecraft, no.

In Derleth's version and its subsidiaries, yes.

[paddyfool]

Here's the relevant section during the conversation with Zadok Allen:

The section that follows this should really be spoilered, for the sake of anyone who hasn't played that campaign yet.

Overall, on this front - Caine doesn't belong in the Cthulhu mythos. If he was there, sure, he could beat up Dagon or someone perhaps... but he'd merely be another tasty snack for Cthulhu.

[WalkingTarget]

The section that follows this should really be spoilered, for the sake of anyone who hasn't played that campaign yet.

Overall, on this front - Caine doesn't belong in the Cthulhu mythos. If he was there, sure, he could beat up Dagon or someone perhaps... but he'd merely be another tasty snack for Cthulhu.

Ok, I'll go back and spoiler it, but that's a quote from "The Shadow Over Innsmouth", not a campaign (though I can see the "Escape From Innsmouth" one using it). Not sure if it's necessary to spoiler one of an author's more famous stories (that's 72 years old) in a discussion specifically about one of his creations. That's almost as bad as going to a discussion about Citizen Kane and complaining that somebody tells you the nature of Rosebud.

[GoC]

Except the whole point of Lovecraft isn't that his monsters can beat up things from other universes, its that in his universes there's nothing on humanity's side that can beat up his monsters.

Well when it was written they hadn't invented either nukes or cruise missiles so we can't be certain that that's still the case.

[FoE]

Well when it was written they hadn't invented either nukes or cruise missiles so we can't be certain that that's still the case.

Mighty Cthulhu laughs at your nuclear warheads.

[chiasaur11]

Mighty Cthulhu laughs at your nuclear warheads.

Then runs and hides until they go away.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well when it was written they hadn't invented either nukes or cruise missiles so we can't be certain that that's still the case.

The Elder Things had incredibly advanced Sci Fi technology and ultimately lost their war against Cthulu.

[Saithis Bladewing]

...Wait, what?

Reading through this, I have to think...

...

Having only seen the first season of Kung Fu and highly enjoying it, nothing seeming too out of the ordinary...

...

What the HELL happened to Caine to give him god powers when I wasn't looking? :smallconfused:

*Isn't sure whether to seek out the second and third season or just run away very very fast.*

[WalkingTarget]

The Elder Things had incredibly advanced Sci Fi technology and ultimately lost their war against Cthulu.

Yeah, it's the same deal with War of the Worlds. At the time, the best the military could muster were artillery shells and an ironclad torpedo ram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Thunder_Child) (which were effective as long as the martians weren't expecting them). Every film adaptation since the advent of nuclear weapons has updated them to account for the advance of science. Beings meant to have "intelligences greater than man's" can hardly be faulted for the time in which they were written.

Cthulhu wasn't really beaten for good anyway, so who's to say how effective modern military technology would be?

[Brother Oni]

Cthulhu wasn't really beaten for good anyway, so who's to say how effective modern military technology would be?

Doesn't one of the Call of Cthulhu RPG sourcebooks goes into the effectiveness of modern weaponry against the mythos? Delta Green?

[WalkingTarget]

Doesn't one of the Call of Cthulhu RPG sourcebooks goes into the effectiveness of modern weaponry against the mythos? Delta Green?

I don't remember the DG sourcebooks discussing it, but I haven't read through them recently.

That's still going back to secondary sources, though. As much as I like Delta Green (which is quite a bit, actually), it seriously changes the tone from the original stories. Of course, what you count as canon when discussing the Mythos has to be fluid due to the open-source nature of its creation, but I prefer to stick to Lovecraft-only unless the discussion is specifically about the expanded set (it's like talking Star Wars and whether you limit to films-only or if you allow EU content, the latter being more open to fanboy-as-writer power creep/contradictions, see August Derleth for example).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Of course, what you count as canon when discussing the Mythos has to be fluid due to the open-source nature of its creation, but I prefer to stick to Lovecraft-only unless the discussion is specifically about the expanded set

The problem with this is that:

1. You ignore contemporary stories that Lovecraft references.

2. Not everything Lovecraft writes was necesaraly intended to be a united mythos, and Cthulu doesn't seem to be intended to exist in the same cosmology as the Randolph Carter dream stories.

3. The whole idea of a mythos was essentially created by Auguste Derleth, so taking Derleth's idea that Lovecraft's work fits into a shared universe but cutting out the way Derleth organised things into a more good vs evil system is basically just doing Derleth's work all over again just using your own ideas.

[Neon Knight]

AHA!

From The Shadow Over Innsmouth:



The Deep Ones could never be destroyed, even though the palaeogean magic of the forgotten Old Ones might sometimes check them. For the present, they would rest; but some day, if they remembered, they would rise again for the tribute Great Cthulhu craved.


Cthulhu/Deep One Connection: Established!

[WalkingTarget]

The problem with this is that:

1. You ignore contemporary stories that Lovecraft references.

2. Not everything Lovecraft writes was necesaraly intended to be a united mythos, and Cthulu doesn't seem to be intended to exist in the same cosmology as the Randolph Carter dream stories.

3. The whole idea of a mythos was essentially created by Auguste Derleth, so taking Derleth's idea that Lovecraft's work fits into a shared universe but cutting out the way Derleth organised things into a more good vs evil system is basically just doing Derleth's work all over again just using your own ideas.

I over-simplified my position. You are correct that, for the most part, Lovecraft's own creations aren't a complete and internally consistent whole, but I very rarely need it to be so when I'm talking about Lovecraft's work.

That is, I can use "The Call of Cthulhu" and maybe "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" and "At the Mountains of Maddness" when discussing Cthulhu himself, "The Dunwich Horror" when discussing Yog-Sothoth, and "The Whisperer in Darkness" when discussing the Mi-go. But that doesn't mean I have to talk about them all at once.

The borrowing done between Lovecraft and his contemporaries largely consisted of name-dropping. Lovecraft may mention Howard's Black Book or Smith's Eibon and other authors might mention the Necronomicon or Cthulhu, but they rarely wrote stories centered around each other's creations (well, until Derleth got going with some of his "posthumous collaborations"). I mean, you don't see Solomon Kane fighting Mi-go or Deep Ones, do you (actually it occurs to me that I haven't read all of the Kane stories, so I may be missing something, but it'd surprise me if he did)?

[Closet_Skeleton]

The borrowing done between Lovecraft and his contemporaries largely consisted of name-dropping.

True, but the internal references to other stories by Lovecraft are pretty much name dropping as well.


AHA!

From The Shadow Over Innsmouth:

Cthulhu/Deep One Connection: Established!

Of course, Cthulu may not care any more about the Deep Ones than he does about his human cultists.

[WalkingTarget]

True, but the internal references to other stories by Lovecraft are pretty much name dropping as well.

And as such aren't really helpful when trying to talk about a particular entity. I'm not going to use "The Whisperer in Darkness" to talk about F. B. Long's Hounds of Tindalos even if they're mentioned there and I'm not going to use "The Dunwich Horror" to discuss Cthulhu despite the use of his name once. As such, though he created the name, we can't really use Lovecraft to talk about Shub-Niggurath since it's just a name that shows up in various incantations.

I'll clarify my position. I don't like using the "mythos" idea if I don't have to. If the discussion pertains to the RPG or to the works of an author who subscribes to it, sure, I'll use that if I have to but even then you have to make choices as to whose additions you want to keep track of. Otherwise, Lovecraft's creations can be dealt with pretty much on a story-by-story basis.

That's a main difference between Lovecraft's contemporaries and most of the people who've added to the "mythos" since then. Lovecraft and his friends used a set of shared references to add verisimilitude to their own stories, whatever that particular story was at the time. Derleth and his ilk wrote stories about that background material, bringing it front-and-center and (in my opinion) making it much less interesting.

[turkishproverb]

Derleth and his ilk wrote stories about that background material, bringing it front-and-center and (in my opinion) making it much less interesting.

Actually, what Dereth did was write stories that made no sense if applied to the mythos and ruined their theme. For example, Cthulhu became a giant water elemental, mysteriously trapped by water.

[WalkingTarget]

Actually, what Dereth did was write stories that made no sense if applied to the mythos and ruined their theme. For example, Cthulhu became a giant water elemental, mysteriously trapped by water.

Yeah, I don't know anybody who retains the elemental interpretation of anything. I suppose one might do so in a discussion of Derleth to the exclusion of all others, but having that discussion would be downright silly. :smallamused:

[GoC]

Yeah, it's the same deal with War of the Worlds. At the time, the best the military could muster were artillery shells and an ironclad torpedo ram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Thunder_Child) (which were effective as long as the martians weren't expecting them). Every film adaptation since the advent of nuclear weapons has updated them to account for the advance of science. Beings meant to have "intelligences greater than man's" can hardly be faulted for the time in which they were written.
Of course not, but they clearly weren't more intelligent then man. They did more or less nothing of any intelligence whatsoever and did several rather stupid things.

What technology did those elder races have?

[Closet_Skeleton]

What technology did those elder races have?

Ray guns and enough genetic engineering to have created all of earth's native biological life. They could also build cities but that's pretty much a given. They could also fly and live in space so had no need for spaceships.

They probably had the equivilant of nukes and stuff.

[Wardog]

Ray guns and enough genetic engineering to have created all of earth's native biological life. They could also build cities but that's pretty much a given. They could also fly and live in space so had no need for spaceships.

They probably had the equivilant of nukes and stuff.

On the other hand, if you can naturally fly through space, maybe you have no need to develop nuclear power/weapons, and many of the other things that us puny humans have to work out.

After all, when they lost the ability to fly into space, they were stuck on earth, and couldn't do anything about it - neither build a spaceship, nor use their biotechnology to restore their lost abilities, nor even work out how to do it by canonical "magical" means as described in The Dreams in the Witch House or Through the Gates of the Silver Key.

Maybe what you need to defeat Cthulhu is an alliance between the Elder Things and humanity - they supply the technology and the know-how, we provide the initiative and grunt-work to make it effective.

All we need are some humans with sufficiently strong minds not to be overcome by the horror/madness. Which might not be as difficult as you might think, given that most of Lovecraft's protagonists seem a bit frail in that department.

Shoggoths, for example , are supposed to be so unnatural that merely the sight of one can overwhealm you with fear/madness. However, it is obviously not a psychic effect, as it only applies if you actually see one. And while someone from Lovecraft's time might be overwhealmed by the sight of a giant, multi-eyed ameoba (or indeed, the knowledge that there are non-human inteligences in the universe), someone brought up on a diet of modern SF and horror might just think "Kill it with Fire!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillItWithFire)

Cthulhu himself might be more of a problem, given he is supposedly psychic enough to cause madness all over the world. (Well, his rising coincided with native unrest in a number of colonies, some mentaly unstable people went mad, and an artist exhibited a disturbing and controvertial painting. I'm not sure how statistically significant that really is, though).

I'm sure there are plenty of people/groups who could potentially take on Cthulhu, given the right technology. As a first line of attack, I suggest we put Stargate SG1 on the case, and work up from there.