PDA

View Full Version : Dealing with contingency...



Breaw
2008-11-15, 01:33 PM
Has anyone come across a way of dealing with contingency using core mechanics?

As a caster trying to kill another caster, contingency is one spell that will thoroughly ruin your day. Even if you get the drop on them, they may have a contingency to TP them away if anyone attacks them, casts a spell... whatever.

It's a big unknown that is very hard to deal with. Originally I thought maybe preparing a contingency triggered specifically to counter their contingency... but I'm not convinced that that is possible.

Does anyone out there have a way to counter a contingency spell? Keep in mind that contingency can only trigger spells on the caster, so my original idea of preparing a contingency that triggers a second contingency to counterspell the contingency that your opponent has active... not so much.

Any thoughts?

Jack Zander
2008-11-15, 01:45 PM
Trigger their contingency, then kill them. They can only have one and you're a freaking caster. It shouldn't be too hard to find them before they can recast their contingency if they teleport away.

Breaw
2008-11-15, 02:37 PM
Trigger their contingency, then kill them. They can only have one and you're a freaking caster. It shouldn't be too hard to find them before they can recast their contingency if they teleport away.

I think you missed something. I may be a caster, but they are an even more powerful caster. If I let them get initiative then I really don't have a hope...

In a high power wizard duel initiative is everything, and with a well designed contingency spell the more powerful wizard can more or less force a do-over if they lose initiative.

Anyone have an actual solution to the problem?

-Breaw

Eldariel
2008-11-15, 03:06 PM
You'll have to beat their Contingency-trigger/effect. Having Dimensional Lock in place before the combat solves Teleports, for example. And whatever their trigger, there's usually a way around it (unless Foresight is involved and they're using speech activation). That said, a higher level Wizard is supposed to whop a lower level easily. Contingency is one of the reasons. When both are played properly, the higher level one wins pretty much always.

Scry - > Teleport after them isn't a bad move though. Neither is just avoiding triggering the whatever condition. Getting them in AMF of course works. It's just that mostly Contingency is used to protect against the very things that would thwart it.

Narmoth
2008-11-15, 06:00 PM
basically, you would want a dispel spell cast upon whatever spell that was cased by the contigency spell

Raum
2008-11-15, 09:22 PM
Don't set the contingency off. Seriously.

Spend a couple divination spells to figure out the trigger condition then plan your battle around avoiding it. If it's triggered by a word, use Silence. If it's triggered by an attack, use the environment, AoEs, or other indirect attacks. If it's triggered by damage, use Flesh to Stone or other non-damaging tactics. So on and so forth...

Prometheus
2008-11-15, 10:02 PM
If I let them get initiative then I really don't have a hope... That's not the only way to set off a contingency. Wizards may have a strong will save, but an illusion might be able to prompt it out of them. Alternatively a summoned monster that appears to be a random monster can sometimes cause wizards to go all out or be simple enough to trigger a generally defined contingency.

olelia
2008-11-15, 10:08 PM
Contingency
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: At least 10 minutes; see text
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: One day/level (D) or until discharged

You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.
Material Component

That of the companion spell, plus quicksilver and an eyelash of an ogre mage, rakshasa, or similar spell-using creature.
Focus

A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.


Best way I saw was targeted disintegrate against the statue since most contigiencies involve attacking the caster not the statue >.>

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 10:26 PM
It doesn't have to be out in the open.

olelia
2008-11-15, 10:35 PM
Disintegrate
Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.
Arcane Material Component

A lodestone and a pinch of dust.

So...disintegrate his whole backpack/bag of holding? >.>

Raum
2008-11-16, 01:49 AM
So...disintegrate his whole backpack/bag of holding? >.>Won't work, the statue would have to be visible. Third line up from the bottom of the disintegrate spell you quoted - "Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting." So you'd get the pack but not it's contents.

Of course hiring a thief to 'acquire' the statue is perfectly viable! :)

Curmudgeon
2008-11-16, 02:45 AM
You're talking a Contingency to trigger Teleport, so they're at least level 15. A Favored Soul at level 17 can kill most any Wizard, with or without Contingency. They've got wings, and can cast Antimagic Field. So the FS either waits until the other caster takes to the air, or provokes a situation that encourages flight. The FS can use various spells to improve their flying speed to close to 10' above the other caster, then cast Antimagic Field. After that it's just a matter of falling and pulling up when the enemy hits the ground. With unaugmented CON, no temporary hit points, and no magical protection against impact, the Wizard is dead.

Eldariel
2008-11-16, 04:45 AM
You're talking a Contingency to trigger Teleport, so they're at least level 15. A Favored Soul at level 17 can kill most any Wizard, with or without Contingency. They've got wings, and can cast Antimagic Field. So the FS either waits until the other caster takes to the air, or provokes a situation that encourages flight. The FS can use various spells to improve their flying speed to close to 10' above the other caster, then cast Antimagic Field. After that it's just a matter of falling and pulling up when the enemy hits the ground. With unaugmented CON, no temporary hit points, and no magical protection against impact, the Wizard is dead.

Except that the Wizard drops on his own turn, so you can't really follow him so he'd be in AMF all the time and thus he can still cast Feather Fall, Teleport, Dimension Door, Wall of Force (to block you from using AMF), etc. Not to mention, AMF is specifically one of the things Contingency is commonly set against. And of course, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would laugh at your AMF. And Contingency > Dimension Door can be done already level 12 (or level 11 with Ring of Arcane Might or whatever).

And really, you could just be a Raptoran or a Dragonborn to pull that off level 11 - level 17 is awfully late to try to actually approach the opponent as it's like to get you killed if you aren't actually casting combat spells.

Hallavast
2008-11-16, 06:26 AM
Won't work, the statue would have to be visible. Third line up from the bottom of the disintegrate spell you quoted - "Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting." So you'd get the pack but not it's contents.



Irrelavent. He's no longer carrying his focus if you disintigrate the pack (as the statuette would certainly fall to the ground). The trick becomes killing or incapacitating him before he can pick it up the next round. This is possible if you make use of Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability, Celerity, quicken spell, or other cheesy tricks...

This tactic can be thwarted rather easily by setting the trigger up differently, however.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 07:13 AM
You're talking a Contingency to trigger Teleport, so they're at least level 15.

Unless of course this is a wizard equiped with CL boosters... By the time my wizards get 6th level casting they usually have at least a +3 cl boost, +7 for Longterm buff routines....

And the Contingency statuette is usually straped to the inside of his thigh underneath his clothes. With the small exception of targetted disintegrates aimed at his bulging crotch (which has happened :smalleek:) thats where it's staying.

Riffington
2008-11-16, 08:15 AM
And the Contingency statuette is usually straped to the inside of his thigh underneath his clothes. With the small exception of targetted disintegrates aimed at his bulging crotch (which has happened :smalleek:) thats where it's staying.

Do you invest in enough Sleight of Hand to make that work?

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 08:24 AM
Do you invest in enough Sleight of Hand to make that work?

You don't need Sleight of Hand, you just need a leather thong and some baggy trousers. You aren't nessecarily trying to be cunning, just to put it out of sight and in an inconvenient place for thieves. Not everything requires a skill check.

Baron Malkar
2008-11-16, 08:55 AM
Has anyone considered the effects of the ring of counterspells from magic item compendium?

Riffington
2008-11-16, 09:00 AM
You don't need Sleight of Hand, you just need a leather thong and some baggy trousers. You aren't nessecarily trying to be cunning, just to put it out of sight and in an inconvenient place for thieves. Not everything requires a skill check.

Oh, absolutely. I'm just saying that someone who does invest in Spot has certain combat advantages as a result.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 09:53 AM
Oh, absolutely. I'm just saying that someone who does invest in Spot has certain combat advantages as a result.

Actually as I understand Sleight of Hand you have to roll to hide an item if you are under observation at the time, likewise you are only oppossed by their Spot if they are looking at you as you do it, after that they've got to frisk you with search. Now I usually houserule that you can spot bulges and odd lumps under peoples clothing but that's it and most wizards have loads of scolls, items, pouches, spellcomponents, whatever under their clothes.

Likewise you can't just use Sleight of Hand to strip the wizard as I've seen talked about before since doing so involves movement and the SRD is quite clear on most skill checks being some form of action and those involving movements certainly so.

Riffington
2008-11-16, 10:03 AM
Actually as I understand Sleight of Hand you have to roll to hide an item if you are under observation at the time, likewise you are only oppossed by their Spot if they are looking at you as you do it, after that they've got to frisk you with search. Now I usually houserule that you can spot bulges and odd lumps under peoples clothing but that's it and most wizards have loads of scolls, items, pouches, spellcomponents, whatever under their clothes.

Likewise you can't just use Sleight of Hand to strip the wizard as I've seen talked about before since doing so involves movement and the SRD is quite clear on most skill checks being some form of action and those involving movements certainly so.

Perhaps my understanding is incorrect. I thought it was:
*to make it disappear, you need to roll vs their spot only if you are observed.
*to keep something hidden on your body, you need to roll vs their spot if they bother to look for bulges.
*if they frisk you, they have a Search instead and +4.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about "Sleight of Hand to strip the Wizard".

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 10:10 AM
Perhaps my understanding is incorrect. I thought it was:
*to make it disappear, you need to roll vs their spot only if you are observed.
*to keep something hidden on your body, you need to roll vs their spot if they bother to look for bulges.
*if they frisk you, they have a Search instead and +4.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about "Sleight of Hand to strip the Wizard".

That's not an unreasonable interpretation but my problem is that your rogue has now seen a bulge on a guy (lets say he's cast a spell so the rogue knows he's a wizard). That's it. That wizard has a bulge in his pants. He also has anouther 47 assorted bulges under his outer clothing, 16 pouches clearly visible and six bags tied to his back or within easy reach on his mount. How does that help you in assessing his tactics or responding to them. Someone with a healthy spotcheck does have combat advantages but they're mostly at the strategic level of noticing ambushes and snipers and traps rather than at the tactical level of changing their responses to the threat in frount of them.

The "Sleight of Hand Strip" was a premptive thing because using Sleight of hand tactics have been put forward before as a way to cripple casters, basically that since you can remove things from a caster with a skill check you should be able to remove everything with successive skill checks. It just annoys me enough to hit on the head before it got brought up. Feel free to ignore that bit.

Riffington
2008-11-16, 10:27 AM
That's not an unreasonable interpretation but my problem is that your rogue has now seen a bulge on a guy (lets say he's cast a spell so the rogue knows he's a wizard). That's it.

Well, now, it's a bit better than that. A trained eye can look at someone and say "That one's a gun bulge, that one's a wallet bulge", etc. Similarly, one would say "that one's a spell component pouch, that one's a wand, etc".

Now, let's say the paranoid wizard has 5 decoy spell component pouches, and I want to sunder the real one. I'd need either a 1/6 chance, or a Sense Motive opposed by his Bluff.



The "Sleight of Hand Strip" was a premptive thing because using Sleight of hand tactics have been put forward before as a way to cripple casters, basically that since you can remove things from a caster with a skill check you should be able to remove everything with successive skill checks. It just annoys me enough to hit on the head before it got brought up. Feel free to ignore that bit.
I guess by RAW it becomes a free action if you can take the -20, but allowing infinite uses would be silly.

Mastikator
2008-11-16, 10:34 AM
What about having a contingency with a greater dispell to counterspell whatever they have on hold.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 10:41 AM
Well, now, it's a bit better than that. A trained eye can look at someone and say "That one's a gun bulge, that one's a wallet bulge", etc. Similarly, one would say "that one's a spell component pouch, that one's a wand, etc".

Now, let's say the paranoid wizard has 5 decoy spell component pouches, and I want to sunder the real one. I'd need either a 1/6 chance, or a Sense Motive opposed by his Bluff.

And I question the amount of information you can get from a bulge that's very generically shaped in the first place and then is placed under your trousers, which are under your tunic, which is under your robe, which is under your cloak.... and then you've got seventy bajillion of them so which generically shaped bulge are you going to go for? Wallets and Guns come in fairly specific shapes and they are placed to be accessable, what shape is a small statuette? and why is it accessable?

The paranoid wizard doesn't have 5 decoy pouches, he has six spell component pouches, he likely has more than one contingency focus aswel, you don't have to sunder the "right" one you have to sunder EVERYone.:smallfrown:

I don't see as how your Sense motive comes into it, the wizard isn't actively trying to conceal something from you he's just got lots of things on him and you have to pick which to attack. If you got him into conversation about what his various bits and bobs were then fine and frudy, but you don't get to aquire infomation out of the blue, maybe a spot roll followed by a knowledge(arcana) roll followed by a spellcraft check, all at major difficulties, would churn something up but that's a whole lot of skillpoints invested to combat the dasterdly wizard trick of getting dressed properly.:smallconfused:

Riffington
2008-11-16, 10:50 AM
And I question the amount of information you can get from a bulge that's very generically shaped in the first place and then is placed under your trousers, which are under your tunic, which is under your robe, which is under your cloak....

Oh, that definitely gives a circumstance modifier...



Wallets and Guns come in fairly specific shapes and they are placed to be accessable,

Sometimes, but trained people actually can spot guns that are placed to be concealed rather than accessible.



The paranoid wizard doesn't have 5 decoy pouches, he has six spell component pouches, he likely has more than one contingency focus aswel, you don't have to sunder the "right" one you have to sunder EVERYone.:smallfrown:

In that case, he wins.



I don't see as how your Sense motive comes into it, the wizard isn't actively trying to conceal something from you


It only works vs decoys. If the extra spell component pouches are backups rather than decoys, it's a whole different story.


What about having a contingency with a greater dispell to counterspell whatever they have on hold.
Only if your DM allows you to invent a nonstandard version of contingency.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-16, 10:51 AM
So...disintegrate his whole backpack/bag of holding? >.>

Except that, in theory, you can bypass the Focus entirely with a Greater Shadow Evocation contingency (Wizard gives up the save he doesn't need to make in the first place for his own spell, and is 100% affected).

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-16, 11:55 AM
Except that, in theory, you can bypass the Focus entirely with a Greater Shadow Evocation contingency (Wizard gives up the save he doesn't need to make in the first place for his own spell, and is 100% affected).

That's a great idea, but this contingency variant only becomes available 4 levels later...
Overall, I think the condition to set can be tricky, but that depends...(you can key many "or" conditions into your saving spell).
But, the problem is that you need to cast the spell way beforehand. So with a dimdoor, for instance, you never know what situation it will be like when you said "50' up, 100ft to the side..."
In other words: contingency is a great spell, but normally will not save the wizard safely in all instances. More like in some, in most not.

- Giacomo

Raum
2008-11-16, 12:33 PM
Irrelavent. He's no longer carrying his focus if you disintigrate the pack (as the statuette would certainly fall to the ground). Good point.

I still prefer my first option - don't set it off.


And the Contingency statuette is usually straped to the inside of his thigh underneath his clothes. Talk about inconvenient places for a rash... :smalleek: This also depends on how small the statue is...1500 gp of gold and gemstones may take up enough space to be 'inconvenient'.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-16, 01:19 PM
Except that the Wizard drops on his own turn, so you can't really follow him Nonsense. Everything drops at the same rate. This isn't a Roadrunner cartoon where gravity only works when you notice that you should be falling; gravity works continuously. The turn-based system merely specifies in what order you act. If falling were constrained by the normal voluntary action rules then dwarves would fall slower than humans due to their lesser movement rate -- and that's clearly nonsense, too.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-16, 01:29 PM
That's a great idea, but this contingency variant only becomes available 4 levels later...
Overall, I think the condition to set can be tricky, but that depends...(you can key many "or" conditions into your saving spell).
But, the problem is that you need to cast the spell way beforehand. So with a dimdoor, for instance, you never know what situation it will be like when you said "50' up, 100ft to the side..."
In other words: contingency is a great spell, but normally will not save the wizard safely in all instances. More like in some, in most not.

- Giacomo
If you want to be cheesy, you use Celerity with your contingency. When it goes off, you get an instant Standard action that's usable for basically any of your spells... and if it goes off at an inconvenient time, all that happens is that it's wasted.

Also, Giacomo, there's an arbitrary, DM-set limit to how many "or" conditions you can key into the Contingency - as the spell specifically notes "If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on." - as "complicated" and "convoluted" are not game-defined terms.