An interesting and frustrating thought on the gates

[Flame of Anor]

So there were five gates, three of which have been destroyed, right? Well, it just came to me that all three were destroyed because of the primal force of stupidity! Think about it: Lirian's gate was destroyed because of :redcloak:'s stupidity, Dorukan's gate was destroyed because of :elan:'s stupidity, and Soon's gate was destroyed--and :xykon: and :redcloak: allowed to get away--through :miko:'s stupidity! (Don't get me started on Miko--it's pretty hard to get an audience to really hate a Good-aligned character, but Miko even surpasses Jar-Jar in that respect.)

Discuss.

[WarriorTribble]

Ayup. Though I'd argue the idiocy with Lirian's gate is the druid herself. You wanna create something that needs to last perferably till the end of time, and you use trees that panic whenever they see fire? Gods help us there isn't a forest fire till then.

[FujinAkari]

Well, except that Miko wasn't actually stupid... she was acting on orders given to every Paladin in Azure City.

If anyone was stupid in that respect, its Soon... though I wouldn't claim that to be the case.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

While I find the thought of anything surpassing Jar Jar (except the Ewocks) to be dubious, I do agree that stupidity is one of the most destructive forces in existence. Many a Evil Overlord has lamented the destructive effects of a Xantos Gilligan in their plans. Sorry if you don't like TV Tropes but this is the only term that fits.

[WarriorTribble]

Well, except that Miko wasn't actually stupid... she was acting on orders given to every Paladin in Azure City.

If anyone was stupid in that respect, its Soon... though I wouldn't claim that to be the case.I'd say she was dumb, or very pessimistic if one felt generous. She was only supposed to destroy the gate if there was absolutely no hope left at all. I'm not sure how seeing the throne room mostly deserted, with a lich and the nemesis of the Sapphire Guard almost dead via ghost paladin who's about to coup de grace them makes one think hopeless situation.

[Flame of Anor]

Well, except that Miko wasn't actually stupid... she was acting on orders given to every Paladin in Azure City.

"To all paladins of the Sapphire Guard: If you commit murder and treason and are stripped of your paladin powers, you are hereby ordered to break out of prison and wreck the intricate plan of the leaders of the order. That is all." :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

I'd say she was dumb, or very pessimistic if one felt generous. She was only supposed to destroy the gate if there was absolutely no hope left at all. I'm not sure how seeing the throne room mostly deserted with a lich and the nemesis of the Sapphire Guard almost dead via ghost paladin about to coup de grace them makes one think hopeless situation.

You are attributing information to Miko which she doesn't have. What Miko saw is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)

- All the (living) paladins dead or immobilized.
- Only 5 of the several dozen ghost-paladins remaining alive
- No enemy corpses, meaning -no casualties- on the invader's side.
- 6 of the ghost paladins destroyed in a single action right as she arrived.

So yeah, from THAT... it certainly looks like the defense is failing... badly. It would have been better for her to delay a few rounds, sure, but one can't fault her for acting on available information.

[Helanna]

Not to mention O-chul standing paralyzed, trying to hit the gate. That might be a bit misleading.

[Flame of Anor]

Not to mention O-chul standing paralyzed, trying to hit the gate. That might be a bit misleading.

Oh, right, I forgot about that. Well, at least I can hope for O-Chul's eventual escape/rescue--the Giant would probably not have shown him being alive, only to smash our hopes for his eventual safety later. Well, I suppose he could go out in some grand heroical manner. But I hope not.

[David Argall]

all three were destroyed because of the primal force of stupidity! Think about it: Lirian's gate was destroyed because of :redcloak:'s stupidity, Dorukan's gate was destroyed because of :elan:'s stupidity, and Soon's gate was destroyed--and :xykon: and :redcloak: allowed to get away--through :miko:'s stupidity!


SoD Redcloak used Flame Strike on a treant, which is a prime tactic. Normally magic fires do not spread and so this tactic does not cause forest fires..., except when the DM/writer decides different. So no, Redcloak did not behave stupidly. He was just unlucky.

While it is hard to refer to anything Elan does without using the word stupid, he does have the excuse here that he is ruled by drama tropes. And the exploding castle is a standard trope. So this is something he might do no matter how intelligent he was.

Miko has already been covered. Her destruction of a gate is due to the fog of war, not stupidity. All the paladins understood that there were situations where the only way to protect the gate was to destroy it. And Miko could reasonably think she had arrived at such a situation. We have Soon's judgement here. Miko had done her duty, which is not what one does when one does something stupid.

[WarriorTribble]

You are attributing information to Miko which she doesn't have. What Miko saw is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)

- All the (living) paladins dead or immobilized.
- Only 5 of the several dozen ghost-paladins remaining alive
- No enemy corpses, meaning -no casualties- on the invader's side.
- 6 of the ghost paladins destroyed in a single action right as she arrived.

So yeah, from THAT... it certainly looks like the defense is failing... badly. It would have been better for her to delay a few rounds, sure, but one can't fault her for acting on available information.Well, I only said she saw a Lich, and the bearer of the Crimson Mantle (and she knows what Redcloak is link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html))about to be killed. Hardly info she didn't have.

I agree with your assessment of what she saw. Still, I'd define a hopeless situation as the minute (second?) before you lose the ability to destroy the Sapphire. If I saw the creator of my guild about to strike down our nemesis and one of his accomplice I'd be cautiously optimistic. Without knowing anything about how the battle for the city is progressing it’s the only logical choice.

[FujinAkari]

Still, I'd define a hopeless situation as the minute (second?) before you lose the ability to destroy the Sapphire.

We can note that O-chul plainly decided that second had already occured. Miko can see that her associate plainly wished to destroy the sapphire and was prevented from doing so. Without knowing -what- prevented him, caution is an unwise choice. The enemy has not lost any of their troops, the enemy is able to prevent the sapphire from being destroyed, and the enemy is unaware of her.

This isn't a time to wait around, especially as what allies remain (what, 5 guys and about thirty corpses, plus an indeterminate number of banished spirits?) seem to be being offed at the rate of several a round.

As David pointed out, claiming Miko was stupid when Soon (the authority on scene) says she performed her duties "adequately" is somewhat irresponcible. While we all agree it would have been better to wait, you are assuming too much of your knowledge of the situation to be known by Miko in the six seconds she had to consider it.

[WarriorTribble]

We can note that O-chul plainly decided that second had already occured. Miko can see that her associate plainly wished to destroy the sapphire and was prevented from doing so. Without knowing -what- prevented him, caution is an unwise choice. The enemy has not lost any of their troops, the enemy is able to prevent the sapphire from being destroyed, and the enemy is unaware of her.Destroying the gem means bringing the world one very big step closer to annihilation, so caution is always warranted imo. In this case, while she was walking towards the gem she should’ve seen (cause y’know keep your eye on the battle and whatnot) Xykon and Redcloak lying on the floor helpless while Soon was about to deliver a coup de grace (link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)). With the immediate threats to the gate about to die why shouldn't one be cautious? O-Chul wasn’t infallible, and the tide of battle can change, especially in fantasy.

Also, it's probably not too unreasonable she assumed the high level characters decided to duo the throne room while the hobgoblin mooks fought azure city mooks. It would explain the lack of minion death in the room.
This isn't a time to wait around, especially as what allies remain (what, 5 guys and about thirty corpses, plus an indeterminate number of banished spirits?) seem to be being offed at the rate of several a round.The numbers of allies or the number to enemies are irrelevant. You don't take out a pillar of reality unless there's about to be an absolute zero chance that it can't be protected. With Miko, Soon, and maybe O-Chul the chances weren't zero or going to be zero for the next few minutes at worst.
As David pointed out, claiming Miko was stupid when Soon (the authority on scene) says she performed her duties "adequately" is somewhat irresponcible. While we all agree it would have been better to wait, you are assuming too much of your knowledge of the situation to be known by Miko in the six seconds she had to consider it.Soon couldn't really judge her immediate actions leading up to the sapphire’s destruction since he was too busy trying to take down two threats. He could only judge the destruction of the jewel itself. And that’s all he judged when he talked to her. We have no idea what he would’ve thought if he knew the rationale behind Miko’s actions.

Oh gods the time! Er... I'd love to continue this tommorow. G'night!

Oh, btw what assumptions am I making?

[Raging Gene Ray]

The whole concept of the Oath was stupid. The five guardians promise never to investigate a gate until after* it is destroyed based solely on the fact that they wanted their particular class features to shine.

You know what would make just as much sense? Elan tackling say, the Katos, an Azurite, or a member of some other adventuring party in order to allow Xykon to get away and then proclaiming "The comic is called "The Order of the Stick," so we have to beat Xykon, not you!"

*(Although the details of the oath "only investigate another gate unless it's in danger," could allow one gates destruction to be interpreted as a threat to the others.)

[Kurald Galain]

So yeah, from THAT... it certainly looks like the defense is failing... badly. It would have been better for her to delay a few rounds, sure, but one can't fault her for acting on available information.

You are correct. The only stupid thing is that she didn't remember how to ready an action :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

Destroying the gem means bringing the world one very big step closer to annihilation, so caution is always warranted imo. In this case, while she was walking towards the gem she should’ve seen (cause y’know keep your eye on the battle and whatnot) Xykon and Redcloak lying on the floor helpless while Soon was about to deliver a coup de grace (link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)). With the immediate threats to the gate about to die why shouldn't one be cautious? O-Chul wasn’t infallible, and the tide of battle can change, especially in fantasy.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Miko was behind the throne, and thus her ability to see -any of that- is severely compromised. The throne is large enough that it would obscure 80 - 95% of the relevant area of the battle while standing directly behind it.

The strip is set up in a way where it makes it very clear what it is that Miko actually saw... you even agree on what it is she saw, yet you continue to attempt to hold her accountable for things that happened after she couldn't see them effectively anymore.


Also, it's probably not too unreasonable she assumed the high level characters decided to duo the throne room while the hobgoblin mooks fought azure city mooks.

Utterly irrelevant. The point is that two of Xykon's forces destroyed around Forty-five of Azure City's defenders, and a 50 v 2 battle had been reduced to a 5 v 2 battle. WHY it was only two doesn't matter... what matters is that it very much seemed that the defenders were about to be annialated... not counting what happened after Miko couldn't see anymore :P


With Miko, Soon, and maybe O-Chul the chances weren't zero or going to be zero for the next few minutes at worst.

A round in D&D is six seconds long, and Redcloak can destroy six ghosts a round. Miko had 12 seconds judging how the battle was going at the moment she saw it.


He could only judge the destruction of the jewel itself. And that’s all he judged when he talked to her. We have no idea what he would’ve thought if he knew the rationale behind Miko’s actions.

He knew the rationale, he states it in the strip, she was trying to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. He states that her action (and said reason) were adequate.

The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe that Miko acted for some reason OTHER than to prevent Xykon from taking the gate, since Soon explicitly states that that reason was adequate.


Oh, btw what assumptions am I making?

You're assuming that Miko took levels in Future Psychic and is able to act based on things that haven't happened yet, that she has Superman-like x-ray vision and is able to easily and accurately keep track of things going on behind opaque objects, and that she is able to accurately consider the probably strength of unknown combatants, the probable troop deployment of an unknown enemy, using these variables to create an viable and reliable battleplan which correctly gauges likely threat. This battleplan is to be based on seeing something for about a second or two, and a mistake will, literally, destroy the world.

So... yeah... I don't think she's stupid for not dilly dallying around when the world itself is on the brink. When you think of people who wish-wash around while the world itself teeters, you think of Nero... and if your argument hinges on "Well she's stupid! She shoulda been more like Nero!" its a bad argument :smallsmile:


You are correct. The only stupid thing is that she didn't remember how to ready an action :smallbiggrin:

True enough, but then damn near EVERY character in the strip has forgotten about their abilities at some point or another ^_^

[Tempest Fennac]

I never thought about why Miko did it like tht to be honest (looking back over it, her expression would suggest that she thought it was hopeless before entering the thrown room, though). I assumed her view on the situation was down to the fact that her sanity had been wrecked by falling.

(I never actually found Jar Jar to be that irritating.)

[RMS Oceanic]

Long story short, Miko glanced at the situation and made a snap decision, with disasterous consequences for Team Good.

To expand, the first thing we have to remember is that Miko would not have known about Soon. If you remember 449, Hinjo clearly states that the Ghost-Martyrs' existance is only known by the Royal Family, so she may not have immediately realised the significance of what Xykon was fighting. What I'm sure she focused on was the fact that every Sapphire Guardsman, save O-Chul, was dead, and O-Chul was primed to destroy the gate. I'm sure the Sapphire Guard were all told that it is more important to deny evil's access to the gate than to prevent the gate's destruction. She sees that her companions have failed, that the last man standing reached the conclusion that all was lost, and now only the Gate's destruction would halt Xykon's plan. And Miko being Miko, once she concludes what the Will of the Gods is, there's very little anyone could do.

[evileeyore]

Long story short, Miko glanced at the situation and made a snap decision, with disasterous consequences for Team Good.

Was it? Disasterous that is.

Azure city was about to fall. Had the Throne Room not fallen when it did Hinjo would not have departed the city and cold have been kileld by the Hob Legions. The Hobgoblins would still have been in control and could likely have gotten Redcloak raised. Given time and cunning strategy (which Redcloak has in spades) he could have taken the Throne Room anyway.

Maybe, maybe Xykon would be dead. Yes it looked bad, but Xykon made a very quick get away. He may have had enough left to finish Soon had he not chickened out. Being caught in the killing ground with Redcloak down and almost out, Xykon might have been able to pull off a Hail Mary. Then again he could have just skeddadled while Soon finshed off Redcloak.


Also keep in mind, O-Chul was prepared to destroy the gate, he clearly did not think the situation was salvageable. So Miko was not alone in her assessment of the situation.

[RMS Oceanic]

Was it? Disasterous that is.

Azure city was about to fall. Had the Throne Room not fallen when it did Hinjo would not have departed the city and cold have been kileld by the Hob Legions. The Hobgoblins would still have been in control and could likely have gotten Redcloak raised. Given time and cunning strategy (which Redcloak has in spades) he could have taken the Throne Room anyway.

Maybe, maybe Xykon would be dead. Yes it looked bad, but Xykon made a very quick get away. He may have had enough left to finish Soon had he not chickened out. Being caught in the killing ground with Redcloak down and almost out, Xykon might have been able to pull off a Hail Mary. Then again he could have just skeddadled while Soon finshed off Redcloak.

I'm pretty sure Xykon and Redcloak's dialogue as Soon is about to kill them is of the opinion they are screwed. If it wasn't for Miko distracting Soon, Xykon wouldn't have been able to skeddadle like he did, at least not without a Ghost-Paladin in pursuit.

Keep in mind that when I say "Team Good", I mean those opposed to the ultimate objectives of "Team Evil", namely controlling the Snarl. Had Miko not interfered, Soon had an extremely good (although I will concede it was not a dead cert) chance of eliminating the two people required to achieve this objective. Azure City may still have fallen, but the larger battle for control of the Gates would have been won, at least for several years, because it would probably take that long for the Dark One to cultivate a follower powerful enough to perform the ritual.

[Vemynal]

I figured I'd bring it up in this thread rather then make a new thread

Playing off the idea that Red cloak had indeed died with Xykon does anyone else think that Red Cloak might have become a new goblin god like the dark one? (remember? the dark ones name had been forgotten as well and we certainly lack Red Cloaks real name)

Or at least he might towards the end of the series die and become a new god of the goblins and help organize with the dark one a better situation for the goblins? Maybe that the hobgoblins will keep the concurred Azure City and that'll be the new land Red Cloak has always wanted for them and they might prosper?

[dps]

We can note that O-chul plainly decided that second had already occured.

Note that at the time that O-chul decided to try to destroy the gate, he, like Miko, would still have been unaware of the existance of the ghost Paladins.

Oh, BTW,
- All the (living) paladins dead or immobilized.
: Which (living) paladins were dead? :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

while she was walking towards the gem she should’ve seen
Well, by D&D rules she should have. The rules allow the PC just about total knowledge of the battlescene. You see everything the DM doesn't rule you can't see, and in practice you "see" a lot of that too. It's a simplifying rule that makes for game convenience. However, it is entirely unrealistic. A battlefield, among other places, is a mess where you often find yourself focusing on one thing to the exclusion of others, which can be the more important.
Going purely by the rules, Soon should have been aware of Miko, and have ordered her over to attack Redcloak or some such action. But obviously he was not aware, and so we can also cut Miko some slack and think she was not aware of some things.

Having decided to destroy the Gate, Miko must sneak the length of the throne room, no small space, get the sword out of O-Chul's clutches, which should be tight, and then get into position to swing. And she has a limited time to do this. She also knows that Xykon one-spelled her. That gives her additional motive to move fast and out of sight of him, which means he is out of sight of her.



With the immediate threats to the gate about to die why shouldn't one be cautious?
This seems to be information she does not have.


You don't take out a pillar of reality unless there's about to be an absolute zero chance that it can't be protected. With Miko, Soon, and maybe O-Chul the chances weren't zero or going to be zero for the next few minutes at worst.
As noted, Miko was defeated by Xykon in just one round. If she had joined the battle, she would take a risk of being only a small temporary distraction that did not change the result, which in turn would mean the Gate would be at risk. It was an option, and we can see the result would have been much better. However, it was just one option, and not necessarily the best based on the information she had.



Soon couldn't really judge her immediate actions leading up to the sapphire’s destruction since he was too busy trying to take down two threats. He could only judge the destruction of the jewel itself. And that’s all he judged when he talked to her. We have no idea what he would’ve thought if he knew the rationale behind Miko’s actions.
Now we clearly can't grant Soon perfect knowledge, but he is still the epic level paladin who has a much better view of the situation than we do. When he says Miko's actions are reasonable under the circumstances, we have to give that opinion a lot of deference.

In essence, Miko was the runner on first who tries to eliminate the double play threat by stealing second. The fact she got tagged out does not mean it was the wrong decision.


Oh, btw what assumptions am I making?
Essentially that Miko could see much of the fight in 463.



Playing off the idea that Red cloak had indeed died with Xykon does anyone else think that Red Cloak might have become a new goblin god like the dark one? (remember? the dark ones name had been forgotten as well and we certainly lack Red Cloaks real name)
The Dark One resulted from a million deaths. Redcloak only gets credit here for about 20,000. So he is still small time. It might be enough to become a 3rd class godling, but...
There are likely other requirements that prevent Redcloak from even reaching the stage of "We will go to the trouble of reading your application before rejecting it". The Dark One's troops would have been "chanting" "The Dark One, the Dark One" all the way, and thus focusing the holy energy. Redcloak's troops merely see him as the current boss, and maybe not even that with Xykon around.

[hamishspence]

They would? Doesn't say that in the book, only that it was because all that killing was done on his behalf, as revenge for his murder, that it contributed.

Sounds like an assumption.

Soons words were "No Miko, you don't need to-"

[Querzis]

...so, how did this turn out into yet another Miko thread?

Anyway, what I realize thanks to you Flame of Anor is not that all gates have been destroyed by stupidity. No, one gate as been destroyed by team Evil, one gate as been destroyed by the OOTS and one gate as been destroyed by the Saphire Guard. 3 of the 4 most important groups in the comic destroyed a gate.

So...does that mean the Linear Guild is gonna destroy Girard gate?

[hamishspence]

it began with the "power of stupidity" suggestion, and included Miko. So, in that sense, from the beginning, it was a "Miko and Other People" thread.

Though it can move on to the others, depending on whats being talked about.

[Warren Dew]

- Only 5 of the several dozen ghost-paladins remaining alive

Don't forget the five "poof"s from one attack from Redcloak that suggest there may only be one round left.


Then again he could have just skeddadled while Soon finshed off Redcloak.

I'm glad someone pointed that out. Most people seem to assume that despite the fact that Xykon gets both of them out of trouble when Soon is distracted for but an instant, Xykon wouldn't bother to save himself if Soon finished Redcloak off.

[Linkavitch]

Ya know what? I never thought about it like that. Huh. You're absolutely right.

[dps]

...so, how did this turn out into yet another Miko thread?

Anyway, what I realize thanks to you Flame of Anor is not that all gates have been destroyed by stupidity. No, one gate as been destroyed by team Evil, one gate as been destroyed by the OOTS and one gate as been destroyed by the Saphire Guard. 3 of the 4 most important groups in the comic destroyed a gate.

So...does that mean the Linear Guild is gonna destroy Girard gate?

An interesting idea. I could easily see this happening.

[WarriorTribble]

Well, by D&D rules she should have. The rules allow the PC just about total knowledge of the battlescene. You see everything the DM doesn't rule you can't see, and in practice you "see" a lot of that too. It's a simplifying rule that makes for game convenience. However, it is entirely unrealistic. A battlefield, among other places, is a mess where you often find yourself focusing on one thing to the exclusion of others, which can be the more important.
Going purely by the rules, Soon should have been aware of Miko, and have ordered her over to attack Redcloak or some such action. But obviously he was not aware, and so we can also cut Miko some slack and think she was not aware of some things.

Having decided to destroy the Gate, Miko must sneak the length of the throne room, no small space, get the sword out of O-Chul's clutches, which should be tight, and then get into position to swing. And she has a limited time to do this. She also knows that Xykon one-spelled her. That gives her additional motive to move fast and out of sight of him, which means he is out of sight of her.My rationale wasn't based on DND rules (maybe I should note I don't play on my sig?), just my own personal logic. Considering Xykon and Redcloak were the two enemy combatants she had to avoid, yes I'd expect her to keep an eye on them at all times. What kind of person tries to be sneaky w/o paying attention to the entities you're sneaking past? The battle shrunk to a handful of combatants, hardly a mess (and most of them were transparent to boot).

Miko also had time to spout some inane lines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) about being a chosen one. She could've multitasked by glancing at Xykon and Redcloak to make sure they couldn't stop her, and this whole mess might've been well less messy. Azure City falls, but the gate itself might've remained intact, and the Crimson Mantle, and/or his cat's paw would've been neutralized.
This seems to be information she does not have.After looking back the comic I linked to, you're correct. It seems the near KOs happened while she was behind the throne room. Still, she could've gotten the info very easily.
As noted, Miko was defeated by Xykon in just one round. If she had joined the battle, she would take a risk of being only a small temporary distraction that did not change the result, which in turn would mean the Gate would be at risk. It was an option, and we can see the result would have been much better. However, it was just one option, and not necessarily the best based on the information she had.Incapacitated might be a better word. Well, I've no idea what might've hapened if Miko entered the fray, and initially walking towards/destroying the sapphire was a much more valid option. So, I'll just ignore that what if senario if it's ok. I'm not sure if Xykon would've cast forcecage/his personal variant on her by the time she was close to the Sapphire. Locking your breakable prize with the good guy is never a good idea. To be fair, such thoughts might be too complex for the heat of battle.
Now we clearly can't grant Soon perfect knowledge, but he is still the epic level paladin who has a much better view of the situation than we do. When he says Miko's actions are reasonable under the circumstances, we have to give that opinion a lot of deference.Well from the way he talked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html): "You've have done... adequately." and "You have fulfilled you oath to defend this one Gate... technically." Sounded to me like he was trying to be nice because she did one of the least optimal things, but her action was still covered by the Sapphire Guard code. A bit like not yelling at someone for trying his/her best.
Essentially that Miko could see much of the fight in 463.Yep, I change my stance to she should've known.
You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Miko was behind the throne, and thus her ability to see -any of that- is severely compromised.Like I told David, I agree, and change my stance to she should've looked, since she had/made time to do that silly proclamation.
A round in D&D is six seconds long, and Redcloak can destroy six ghosts a round. Miko had 12 seconds judging how the battle was going at the moment she saw it.My comment was on how after Xykon and Redcloak were dead she would've been safe for a few seconds/minutes.
He knew the rationale, he states it in the strip, she was trying to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. He states that her action (and said reason) were adequate.

The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe that Miko acted for some reason OTHER than to prevent Xykon from taking the gate, since Soon explicitly states that that reason was adequate.Her trying to prevent the Sapphire from falling into enemy hands is a given. "He could only judge the destruction of the jewel itself." That's what he did (you tried to prevent it from falling into wrong hands). What info Soon is missing is her rationalization for thinking the situation was that bad, and if she paid adequate attention to the battle. That's what we're arguing, which is why I think Soon's judgment can't be used to justify either sides on this discussion.
You're assuming that Miko took levels in Future Psychic and is able to act based on things that haven't happened yet, that she has Superman-like x-ray vision and is able to easily and accurately keep track of things going on behind opaque objects, and that she is able to accurately consider the probably strength of unknown combatants, the probable troop deployment of an unknown enemy, using these variables to create an viable and reliable battleplan which correctly gauges likely threat. This battleplan is to be based on seeing something for about a second or two, and a mistake will, literally, destroy the world.

So... yeah... I don't think she's stupid for not dilly dallying around when the world itself is on the brink. When you think of people who wish-wash around while the world itself teeters, you think of Nero... and if your argument hinges on "Well she's stupid! She shoulda been more like Nero!" its a bad argumentElaborate on the Future Psychic thing please. She had time, remember speech. She fought Redcloak before, and as a battle hardened warrior she should've been able to guestimate Xykon's strength based on how he was doing with Soon, and she was a fair distance from both in anycase. I never expected her to know troop deployment, just to notice Soon beating Redcloak and Xkyon, maybe heal O-Chul somehow, then wait for threats, or reinforcements to arrive. That's all, no fancy battle plans. Shojo believed controlling the Gate would "mean a new age of darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html)," and it's not much of a stretch to assume the Sapphire Guild thought the same thing. Destroying the Gate is what risks destroying the world. Darkness or annihilation? It is a rock and a hard place. Definitely not a choice that demands haste, and lets face it she wasn't rushing anyways, more like blinded by hubris.

I don't believe taking a second to ascertain the situation is dilly dallying. Not doing so could've meant getting hit in midstrike and failing, or any number of things. We may have to agree to disagree. But in anycase she already did waste time, so why not take a look? And don't beat the strawman please, it's rude to both of us. :smallsmile:
...so, how did this turn out into yet another Miko thread?Truth be told, even I'm a bit surprised. I figured me calling Lirian dumb would've been the controversial thing.

[FujinAkari]

[QUOTE=WarriorTribble;5309370]I don't believe taking a second to ascertain the situation is dilly dallying. Not doing so could've meant getting hit in midstrike and failing, or any number of things. We may have to agree to disagree. But in anycase she already did waste time, so why not take a look? And don't beat the strawman please, it's rude to both of us. :smallsmile:

Eh, my entire last paragraph should be taken as sarcastic, I thought it was pretty evident what you were assuming, and you've already changed your stance on how much she knew.

What I can say is that, by D&D rules, speaking is a free action, so saying her lines -didn't- take up any time, whereas looking around the throne to check the situation potentially could have (DM discretion).

Additionally, you mentioned how she wasn't in much danger, being far away from the combatants. Trouble is, she -knows- Xykon can cast Xykon's moderately escapable force cage at a moment's notice, and that if he gets that one spell off, she won't be able to destroy the gem.

As such, a single round can very easily spell ruin, because Xykon can (and has!) removed her from combat with but a thought.

As I and others have said, Miko wasn't brilliant, but calling her stupid is pushing it.

Also: While you're correct that Soon was likely being nice to Miko in calling her actions adiquate, Soon is still the epitome of LG paladins, and so he isn't lying when he says that. If Soon thought her actions were moronic, he would have said so, or possibly polished it to "tactically unnecessary..."

[David Argall]

Considering Xykon and Redcloak were the two enemy combatants she had to avoid, yes I'd expect her to keep an eye on them at all times. What kind of person tries to be sneaky w/o paying attention to the entities you're sneaking past?
One that is in a hurry. Pausing to check on the others takes time. At moment zero, she assumes, correctly, they are distracted and will not notice her, and so she does not need to notice them.



The battle shrunk to a handful of combatants, hardly a mess (and most of them were transparent to boot).
Which is reason for her to hurry. The battle ends soon, and if Soon loses, she must be quickly in position to destroy the Gate. There is limited time, and she unfortunately does not spend it checking on how the battle is going.


Miko also had time to spout some inane lines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) about being a chosen one.
I am not sure of the trope name, but this falls under the dramatic speech rule. Time stops while the speech is given, and nobody, including the speaker, can do anything until the speech is over.



She could've multitasked by glancing at Xykon and Redcloak to make sure they couldn't stop her, and this whole mess might've been well less messy.
Yup, but she had O-Chul as an example here. Pausing to look before swinging could convert her into the other half of a set of bookends. As said elsewhere, the alternative strategy would have worked better, but that it was the better strategy is not so certain.



Well from the way he talked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html): "You've have done... adequately." and "You have fulfilled you oath to defend this one Gate... technically." Sounded to me like he was trying to be nice because she did one of the least optimal things, but her action was still covered by the Sapphire Guard code. A bit like not yelling at someone for trying his/her best.
And doing something stupid is not trying his or her best. What he says is that her actions were reasonable [tho not necessaryily perfect], but the result was lousy.



What info Soon is missing is her rationalization for thinking the situation was that bad, and if she paid adequate attention to the battle.
Soon had this information, in the sense that he knew how the battle would have looked from the door, and would have known if it would have looked like a situation where Miko must act immediately or could wait and consider. He of course has also viewed Miko for over a decade while she was a paladin. So he presumably knows her reactions far better than we do.



Darkness or annihilation? It is a rock and a hard place. Definitely not a choice that demands haste,
However, the situation did demand haste. One side or the other was going to win in 2-3 rounds. Possibly 1. If she sat and thought it over, she would be useless [which under the circumstances would have been superior, but virtually no PC would endorse that choice].



I figured me calling Lirian dumb would've been the controversial thing.
SoD I'm not sure why you think Lirian was in any way dumb in the loss of the gate. She did spare Xykon and Redcloak, but she had valid reason to deem them harmless, and given all the criticism of V for killing a captive, there seems to be quite a few who would insist she had to spare them.
While we don't see it, we have reason to suspect there is a destruct button around this gate. Lirian's boyfriend would certainly have influenced her opinion here, and so some destruct means is a possible element.
The one who must answer the charge of stupid is Redclaok, who wanted the gate intact, but whose action destroyed it. I would submit that, like Miko, he was simply using reasonable tactics that didn't work in the given situation. However, at least he can be charged. Lirian seems to be in the clear.

[King of Nowhere]

I also think that Miko's decision of destroying the gate was not stupid, because in the haste of the moment it is reasonable to misunderstand the situation, but still Soon's Gate was destroied by stupidity: the stupidity of the ruling family of Azure City of not sharing the secret of the ghost paladins.
If the paladins knew about the ghosts, then O-Chul wouldn't have tryed to shatter the gate in the first place. And Miko would have been more optimistic in seeing the corpses, knowing an epic level character was fighting on her side. That, plus O-Chul not in an attempt of destroing the gate, and Miko maybe would have taken the right decision.

Lirian's gate was destroied because she was so stupid she didn't put a fire protection on the gate. I mean, that gate was going to collapse the first time a lighting striked nearby! Even if in the end it was good, because otherwise Xykon would have take the Gate.

And Dorukan's gate was disitegrated by Elan's stupid adherence to drama conventions, so yes, the gates were destroied by stupidity.