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View Full Version : Shake up a DM... (Shook up a DM now)



Q-burt
2008-11-15, 08:42 PM
OK, here's the rub. I have a DM friend, who is, shall we say, less than inclined to do anything spontaneous or off of what he has prepared and planned for. He is about to run a game and has restricted the group to PHB classes and races, minus a couple. Spells are limited to PHB only as well. Feats and magic items are a bit looser.

I want to make a very versatile, non-caster character, who can solve most problems, and be fun to play. In short a real problem solver who can force this DM, who is otherwise a decent DM, into some adlibing and non-railroaded plans. We've all talked to him at one time or another about this style, but he either isn't listening, or is plain old fashioned stubborn.

I was thinking of a good old fashioned human rogue. But I have zero experience building rogues and would appreciate any advice you folks here have!

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-15, 08:51 PM
Core only? For your build, get two-weapon fighting for your feats, max out use magic device, and... really, that's the biggest thing a core-only rogue can do. Chose your wands wisely, and go with it. If you like, pump your charisma and max out your social skills and attempt to find ways to resolve problems that don't involve stabbing things (alternatively, don't involve you stabbing things or being stabbed personally). If you want true versatility (and also power), just play a wizard, and do it well. More information (character/wealth levels, ability score options for example) can yield more information.

Also, this strikes me as a bad idea... Throwing a DM off just for the sake of throwing him off is liable to end in tears for everyone. Have you tried just talking to your DM about this? Perhaps encourage him to arrange situations that lend themselves well to open-ended thinking and ad-libbing?

rayne_dragon
2008-11-15, 09:28 PM
Heh. Derailing DMs is fun... at least when they try to hit you with railroad plot.

I recommend you focus on being a skill-monkey as skills are often as useful as magic in terms of getting to places you aren't supposed to go. Pus if you play a rogue skills = magic with Use Magic Device.

Attributes: Focus on Int for more skills and Dex for to hit bonuses (take weapon finese and use a rapier if you're not using a ranged weapon) and AC. Cha and Wis also help with skills. Strength is the least important.

Skills: Use Magic Device is a must in this case. Diplomacy, Bluff, Disable Device, Forgery, Escape Artist, Disguise and Open Lock are all great for getting around obstacles and finding your way into places you wouldn't normally be abe to go. Listen, Spot, Search and Sense motive are useful to keep the DM from ambushing you with stuff. The other skills can be very useful for getting around too,

Feats: Feats that add bonuses to skills, saves and initiative will get you the most bang for your buck in this case, but you can take anything that seems like it would be useful as well. Most of the time feats won't let you do things that will break the DM's plans.

If you're starting out at first level make sure to invest in the more useful mundane and alchemical items as much as you can. Rope, spikes, caltrops, chalk, candles, mirrors... take everything you can carry and have ideas how to use in weird, innovative ways. At higher levels wondrous items, scrolls, wands and potions are your friends. Look for spells you'd want to use as a wizard and buy items that duplicate the effect. Anything with flying, tunneling, burrowing, teleportation or any other form of alternate movement is going to be perfect for what you want to do. The fist time I let my players have a flying carpet I regretted it immediately.

Also roleplaying a paranoid rogue works well for throwing off plots. When the town wizard asks you to undertake a "simple task" like fetching water from a particular spring, start making assumptions about how this is going to be a trap. Besides you'll usually be right, which means most of the party will listen to you the next time you suggest going in a different direction.

Q-burt
2008-11-15, 09:31 PM
Sorry, level 6, WBL from the DMG.

As for the options, yes, we have repeatedly tried to point out to him that its not a good idea to write a story and expect the characters to act in it. So many times that its painful. So this time I want to just shake him up and force some improvisization. Best case scenario, he'll get it at long last and start thinking about options. Worst case, he'll decide that DMing isn't his cup of tea, and we will get to play under some of the other, far more flexible DMs.

Not that he's a bad DM, but when he makes a game, he makes a choose your own adventure... without the choices. Railroading in the level that he takes it is getting a tad annoying.

I thought about the wizard, but I have played so many casters in so many different games now (we have about 20 people in our gaming circle, so I can play in 5 different campaigns at any given time) that I really didn't want to go that route. I might end up doing it anyway, just to give myself the flexibility I need.

Nohwl
2008-11-15, 09:39 PM
i had a dm who railroaded that heavily once. he refused to allow options that werent written down in his notebook. i hope you have better luck than i did.

Prometheus
2008-11-15, 09:59 PM
Also roleplaying a paranoid rogue works well for throwing off plots.
This definitely. I played a goblin who was certain that he had mercenaries after him (not trusting anyone with weapons and not a uniform) and that everything was part of some grand conspiracy (he had a couple of odds and ends left behind from his father he was sure was vitally important). He refused to use arrows and forbid the other players from doing so unless it was absolutely necessary (in which case he would collect them up after-wards). When the king decided to give them a reward for their quest, he opted not to be present so that he wouldn't gain recognition and could keep a low profile (he received the reward in the mail). He maxed out Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently so that he could always be aware - occasionally staying up all night when he was suspicious of something (and he almost always was).

If you are looking for something that is a more standard rp but has more options, go with UMD and general skills.

NPCMook
2008-11-15, 10:22 PM
If the DM says you need to go right, go left. If the DM says a Farmer needs you to help him rescue some livestock, find and slaughter, have a BBQ. If the DM says the BBEG is about to confront you tell him, "Whoa whoa whoa dude, I don't know anything about this legend, and have nothing to do with it." and walk away.

Now I'm not saying play Chaotic Stupid, people of all alignments can look out for numero uno.

afroakuma
2008-11-15, 11:15 PM
I still loved the one about the player who, upon being told that his character's going to a certain valley would begin the epic world war, geased himself to never go to that valley. DM explosion.

Lanky's session of horror takes the cake on stabbing railroady DM's, too.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-16, 12:39 AM
Well, if you can get the other players involved, assuming they have similar opinions on the DM's style, you could make a plucky band of farmers. Make sure to get your stats as low as possible with 10's across being the ideal and concern yourself with more mundane matters such as The dragon menacing the northern territories being much less important than the sudden drop in cabbage prices. Of course this will make the group essentially useless when it comes to adventuring but should make for an interesting campaign.

Kris Strife
2008-11-16, 01:03 AM
1. Have a high diplomacy character seduce the chromatic dragon and turn them good.
2. Watch DM's mind implode.
3. ?????
4. Profit.

BizzaroStormy
2008-11-16, 01:56 AM
You want to screw with him? Have everybody in the group make a fighter that is capable in both ranged and melee combat. Make them ALL the same. Same looks, race, even down to what they say. Even better, have them speak in unison whenever possible. I'm assuming you're the typical 4-man party so just name them #1, #2, and so forth to distinguish during combat.

xPANCAKEx
2008-11-16, 02:09 AM
never follow plot hooks, annoy plot-vital NPCs, kill everything you can.

farmer "my daughter has been kidnapped"
party "sorry to hear that - we'll be off now"

oh, and burn things as often as possible whenever you get away with it

collapse dungeon entrances

with burning if possible

wait till you get your quest,... then fail it by going in the opposite direction. The cowardly PC party is the right way!

Demented
2008-11-16, 02:41 AM
If you just want to get your DM's creative juices going, ask every NPC what their name is.

Possibilities are:
Your DM will learn the smallest bit about how to improvise.
You'll have an army of people named "Bob".
Your DM will insist it's not important.
None of the NPCs will have names.
"You don't ask him that."

arguskos
2008-11-16, 02:50 AM
Also, this strikes me as a bad idea... Throwing a DM off just for the sake of throwing him off is liable to end in tears for everyone. Have you tried just talking to your DM about this? Perhaps encourage him to arrange situations that lend themselves well to open-ended thinking and ad-libbing?
All I want to say is that this quote from Proven_Paradox is important. I would suggest talking to the DM before you do this, since nothing ruins a good D&D session like having players **** stuff up on purpose. It tends to tick everyone off.

That said, if you go for it, go for broke and REALLY break stuff. Don't just be annoying, really mess stuff up. Kill plot important NPC's. Steal magical items from the local wizard. Make your own quests and go off and do them (drag the rest of the party with promises of loot and glory). When offered quests, just go "Sorry, can it wait for tomorrow? I have ale and whores coming." Stuff like that.

I still think you should only resort to such tactics if you absolutely must, but meh, you know your situation best. :smallwink:

Coidzor
2008-11-16, 02:52 AM
Also roleplaying a paranoid rogue works well for throwing off plots. When the town wizard asks you to undertake a "simple task" like fetching water from a particular spring, start making assumptions about how this is going to be a trap. Besides you'll usually be right, which means most of the party will listen to you the next time you suggest going in a different direction.

Is it bad that I got a huge whiff of Hunter S. Thompson off of this idea? Clearly out of his gourd from the delusions and yet has moments of insane insight and clarity...

Hmm... that gives me a bit of an idea... I did just RP my character having a nervous breakdown as a result of a suggestion spell...


Q-Burt: Good luck man, I'd just like to agree with those ideas about making sure you've got the rest (or at least a fair fraction of your party) in cahoots so you don't get shanked and the whole not only try to actively derail it but making him have to think about things outside the usual box...

And never forget the whole, wake the rest of the party up in the middle of the night before you're to be told the rest of a quest by someone and impressing upon the rest that they were going to kill the party in its sleep with false evidence.

BizzaroStormy
2008-11-16, 02:52 AM
never follow plot hooks, annoy plot-vital NPCs, kill everything you can.

farmer "my daughter has been kidnapped"
party "sorry to hear that - we'll be off now"

oh, and burn things as often as possible whenever you get away with it

collapse dungeon entrances

with burning if possible

wait till you get your quest,... then fail it by going in the opposite direction. The cowardly PC party is the right way!

Reminds me of a couple years ago. A local gaming store was holding the D&D gameday thing and the railroad was pointing to a burning monastery. What did we do? We ran away, yes we simply ran away and didn't look back. Just for the hell of it and since there were no other groups waiting to play, we tried again, actually going through it this time and dying in the process.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-16, 03:04 AM
I'd make a single-classed Human Bard, get Dragontouched (DM), Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon (RotD), and Dragonfire Inspiration (DM). Pick up Song of the Heart (ECS) and Words of Creation (BoED) if you can take flaws, otherwise get them later, and be sure to get Melodic Casting (CM). Check the Bard's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766) for suggestions on spells and items. You'll be a capable problem solver, and your party should be able to roll right over combat challenges with your buffs.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-16, 03:27 AM
Rogue19/Specialist Wizard1 (Take classes in whatever order you feel appropriate.)

Perhaps specialize in Conjuration or Transmutation or Illusion (bar Necromancy and Evocation) for 3 first level spells per day. They can include such useful things as:


Protection from Alignment helps with will saves.
Grease makes people flatfooted
Detect Secret Doors helps... detect secret doors.
Acid Splatter (cantrip, actually) give you something to sneak attack with in absence of weapons.
Reduce Person helps you sneak around.
Silent Image is good for distractions

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 08:16 AM
build a kobold rogue/trapsmith, stripmine everything, anything you can't trap blowup, burndown, undermine or fill with concrete...

Shank everyone who's name you learn unless it's clear they're the BBEG, in which case attempt to handover your CV and refferences.

Hire NPC adventuring parties to do the job for you, start a bandit gang and become a mini-bbeg, max out diplomacy and start a crusade, max forgery and start a war, max Bluff and start your own religion....

Come up with some random personality features and motivations, let nothing sway you from exploring them... "Sorry, I can't help you bring down the evile Wizarde Bob Evilepants today I have to find a bigger feather for my hat" sort of thing.

Zombie hordes are always fun and sheep are cheap. Combine the two for moments of hilarity and madness.

Every tomb, crypt, lair or mysterious hole in the ground should always be filled with as many sheep as you can round up before you try to dive it, bye bye traps, bye bye hungry monsters, bye bye ambushes and all for the price of a few thousand sheep....

found a business, dedicate all your time and effort to maintaining it. Try using simple, cheap wonderous items made using cantrips as sextoys, imagine what you could do with presitdigitation and magehand and how an unsuspecting public would deal with giant wobbling purple dildos for all.....:smallbiggrin:

If you're out to turn the evening into a ridiculous laughfest go for the most farfetched thing you can think of, knock the idea around with mates beforehand to brainstrom and extrapolate it, then just go for the gusto when trying to put it into motion. Bonus points if you can make it surprising enough to make your DM blow a drink out through his nose, this takes some skilled timing but is well worth it.:smalltongue:

Captain Six
2008-11-16, 01:55 PM
My advice varies based on your intention. If you want to mess up his game, don't. That's the same as a DM asking for a two page backstory and starting the campaign with falling rocks.

If you're trying to improve the DMs flexibility I second asking people's names. Start small, one or two people a city. Don't do it to the point of annoyance but start to develop relationships with NPCs, ask questions, help them with chores, etc. As a DM I'd be thrilled to have a PC walk into a town and go visit an NPC friend, even if he doesn't have anything to do with the current quest, just to see what's up. It's roleplaying practice for both of you, character development for you and improvisation training for him. It's small, it's subtle it will help open the DM's mind to non-quest flexibility. From there flexibility on actions during important events is sure to happen. Also roleplay heavy games help with remaining sane while mechanically limited.

For the class, I agree with you on the rogue. Race doesn't matter to much but rogue is one of my favorite core classes. Probably the most well rounded non-caster when it comes to dealing with problems which sounds like what you're looking for.

Doomsy
2008-11-16, 02:29 PM
You want to screw with him? Have everybody in the group make a fighter that is capable in both ranged and melee combat. Make them ALL the same. Same looks, race, even down to what they say. Even better, have them speak in unison whenever possible. I'm assuming you're the typical 4-man party so just name them #1, #2, and so forth to distinguish during combat.

You get extra points if they are all named Borg. Failing that, Bjorn.

As for the OP? It depends on what you are going for exactly, man. A lot of these people are suggesting total defiance madness, I get the impression you're just trying to make the DM think laterally without totally doing a Dukes of Hazzard off the rails.

I'd say just play whatever you play as smart as you can and as laterally as you can. Make a LOT of contacts with NPCs, get favors, learn to come at problems from the sides. Explore as often as you can, as much as you can. Make him flesh out stuff he thought was peripheral. Keep him tensed that you are ABOUT to swerve his plot off the road and into the trees, but don't actually do it unless it is both stunningly obvious and something he looked over - then you punch it in the hilt. He has only himself to blame and he will hopefully start adding more flex to his plots, or just go insanely micromanagement and drift off in an OCD haze.

The key to really throwing a DM off is not so much the chaotic insane/stupid things as waiting for that one golden moment when you can kick out a major support beam from an angle he never saw coming. That can take timing, getting a feel for his plans, and knowing how his mind works. It is also pretty damn awesome when you do it.

FoE
2008-11-16, 02:50 PM
My recommendation? Go the Penny Arcade route. Name your character "Jim Darkmagic" and introduce yourself as "Jim Darkmagic of the New Hampshire Darkmagics." :smalltongue:

Alternately, insist on grappling at least once each session.

Q-burt
2008-11-16, 03:03 PM
I must admit to a touch of frustration at those who's advice is "don't do it! Talk to the DM instead!"... I've posted twice now that we have all spoken to him, at length, privately, collectively, etc. about his lack of options presented to us, and his inability to do anything that was not preplanned and pre-scripted. I have even had him co-DM a campaign with me, wherein I had him help me flesh out the stuff that I had planned out, as well as the material which I could use if it became possible or necessary. The later material was approximately 5 times the amount of the former. I was attempting to impress upon him that maybe when he DMed in Junior High (20+ years ago) his players wouldn't think of loopholes in his plot or planning, that players wouldn't come up with incredibly creative solutions to the puzzles and problems he presented them with - but we weren't in Junior High any longer. I thought, at the end of that, he had gained a glimmer, but instead during his very next campaign, the following was said...

DM: "No, you guys can't go down the left path yet. I told you, its dark and filled with rubble, making it all but impassible."

Player: "No problem, I am going to summon a bulette to clear a path for us."

DM: "Ummm... no... your summoning fails to work."

Player: "Why??"

DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."

Later on, after we had gone down the "right" path, and procured the item he wanted us to have...

Player: "OK, lets head back to that fork and see what we can do about all that rubble."

DM: "When you get there, the rubble is gone."

At the conclusion of that adventure, I pointed out to him, over a couple beverages, that it would have been just as easy, if it was necessary for us to have the item before proceeding down the "right" path (which it was not), that he could have switched the locations of things in his dungeon to accommodate those choices. His answer? "I can't do that, it would mess up my story." My internal response "I thought this was a team sport."

[/rant]

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read the posts, and offered some good ideas. Some of them are a tad over the top (you know who you are! :) ) but there are also some great ideas here. Thanks! Here's hoping we can make our point to this DM, and get one of our two hoped for results.

AmberVael
2008-11-16, 03:13 PM
Not that he's a bad DM, but when he makes a game, he makes a choose your own adventure... without the choices. Railroading in the level that he takes it is getting a tad annoying.

A choose your own adventure without the choices is called a "story." Typically these are written up by one person and put into "books."
:smalltongue:

More seriously, there really isn't anything wrong with a railroad adventure/roleplay. However, it typically isn't what people look for when they go to play DnD...
To be quite honest, I think this is less of anyone doing anything wrong, and more a lack of connection between players and DM. Not as in there is no communication, but rather that the players and the DM are each looking for different experiences. My advice? Find a new DM. No offense to the old one- but he isn't running a game you want to play. If you hate playing Scrabble, do you say 'sure, I'll play scrabble!' when someone offers? No! You don't play the game!
So that's my advice. If someone offers a game you don't want to play, why are you playing it? Find a game you DO want to play, rather than messing around with the game you've found.

rayne_dragon
2008-11-16, 03:46 PM
DM: "Ummm... no... your summoning fails to work."

Player: "Why??"

DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."


Wow. He totally deserves to have his plot derailed. Let us know how things turn out.

Doomsy
2008-11-16, 03:55 PM
I must admit to a touch of frustration at those who's advice is "don't do it! Talk to the DM instead!"... I've posted twice now that we have all spoken to him, at length, privately, collectively, etc. about his lack of options presented to us, and his inability to do anything that was not preplanned and pre-scripted. I have even had him co-DM a campaign with me, wherein I had him help me flesh out the stuff that I had planned out, as well as the material which I could use if it became possible or necessary. The later material was approximately 5 times the amount of the former. I was attempting to impress upon him that maybe when he DMed in Junior High (20+ years ago) his players wouldn't think of loopholes in his plot or planning, that players wouldn't come up with incredibly creative solutions to the puzzles and problems he presented them with - but we weren't in Junior High any longer. I thought, at the end of that, he had gained a glimmer, but instead during his very next campaign, the following was said...

DM: "No, you guys can't go down the left path yet. I told you, its dark and filled with rubble, making it all but impassible."

Player: "No problem, I am going to summon a bulette to clear a path for us."

DM: "Ummm... no... your summoning fails to work."

Player: "Why??"

DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."

Later on, after we had gone down the "right" path, and procured the item he wanted us to have...

Player: "OK, lets head back to that fork and see what we can do about all that rubble."

DM: "When you get there, the rubble is gone."

At the conclusion of that adventure, I pointed out to him, over a couple beverages, that it would have been just as easy, if it was necessary for us to have the item before proceeding down the "right" path (which it was not), that he could have switched the locations of things in his dungeon to accommodate those choices. His answer? "I can't do that, it would mess up my story." My internal response "I thought this was a team sport."

[/rant]

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read the posts, and offered some good ideas. Some of them are a tad over the top (you know who you are! :) ) but there are also some great ideas here. Thanks! Here's hoping we can make our point to this DM, and get one of our two hoped for results.

Okay, yeah. This is no longer in the realm of reasonable hope for mediation. Go nuts. Make your next character a wizard with Alzheimers, chaotic stupid, or just plain actually mentally deficit. Eat the plot NPC. Set the castle on fire.

Roshambo the king. The sky is the limit.

Flickerdart
2008-11-16, 04:00 PM
If all else fails, employ mighty rules wizardry. I have a feeling that the DM will constantly insist that "you can't do that" if you step off the tracks, at which point you should prove that "yes, I can, and how!"

What content from the PHB is forbidden, specifically?

paddyfool
2008-11-16, 04:02 PM
Some more suggestions in getting off the railroad:

- Have a background stuffed to bursting with plot hooks, so that you can justify off-railroad stuff
- Have a rich and mixed bag of abilities (rogue is indeed good for this, with personal skills like diplomacy & gather information particularly handy for generating plot; also, on skills, UMD and Tumble are the absolute musts for fun play as a rogue)
- Possibly don't show your hand as a plot-derailer at once - wait until you have a good opportunity to throw a spanner in the works
- Conspire with fellow players (you don't want them and the DM against you on this)

Seriously, though, if the DM really doesn't want you off the railroad... you're pretty much stuck there. Most you might manage is the odd little scenic route along the way.

arguskos
2008-11-16, 04:06 PM
I must admit to a touch of frustration at those who's advice is "don't do it! Talk to the DM instead!"... I've posted twice now that we have all spoken to him, at length, privately, collectively, etc. about his lack of options presented to us, and his inability to do anything that was not preplanned and pre-scripted. I have even had him co-DM a campaign with me, wherein I had him help me flesh out the stuff that I had planned out, as well as the material which I could use if it became possible or necessary. The later material was approximately 5 times the amount of the former. I was attempting to impress upon him that maybe when he DMed in Junior High (20+ years ago) his players wouldn't think of loopholes in his plot or planning, that players wouldn't come up with incredibly creative solutions to the puzzles and problems he presented them with - but we weren't in Junior High any longer. I thought, at the end of that, he had gained a glimmer, but instead during his very next campaign, the following was said...

DM: "No, you guys can't go down the left path yet. I told you, its dark and filled with rubble, making it all but impassible."

Player: "No problem, I am going to summon a bulette to clear a path for us."

DM: "Ummm... no... your summoning fails to work."

Player: "Why??"

DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."

Later on, after we had gone down the "right" path, and procured the item he wanted us to have...

Player: "OK, lets head back to that fork and see what we can do about all that rubble."

DM: "When you get there, the rubble is gone."

At the conclusion of that adventure, I pointed out to him, over a couple beverages, that it would have been just as easy, if it was necessary for us to have the item before proceeding down the "right" path (which it was not), that he could have switched the locations of things in his dungeon to accommodate those choices. His answer? "I can't do that, it would mess up my story." My internal response "I thought this was a team sport."

[/rant]

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read the posts, and offered some good ideas. Some of them are a tad over the top (you know who you are! :) ) but there are also some great ideas here. Thanks! Here's hoping we can make our point to this DM, and get one of our two hoped for results.
Apologies for my apparently annoying post, but I guess I didn't quite realize the depths of this guy's ineptitude.

Alright, go screw with him. DM's like this need to be awakened to reality. However, I can't stress this enough, DON'T be cruel or mean, that'll just cause a fight, and no one wants that. Just roleplay well, and right off the tracks.

Good luck to you.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-11-16, 07:12 PM
Later on, after we had gone down the "right" path, and procured the item he wanted us to have...
Why on earth didn't you break the item? Or just drop it in a nearby chasm? Why did you pick it up in the first place?

monty
2008-11-16, 07:17 PM
Get disintegrate. Cast it on everything. Barriers, plot-critical items, NPCs...

Q-burt
2008-11-16, 07:49 PM
Get disintegrate. Cast it on everything. Barriers, plot-critical items, NPCs...

Now this I like. :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-11-16, 07:52 PM
Now this I like. :smallbiggrin:

That's how I survived the Tomb of Horrors. If it moved, disintegrate. If it didn't move, disintegrate. Probably lost some loot in the process, but oh well.

Magnor Criol
2008-11-16, 08:15 PM
I really like the idea of asking NPC names. But take this a step further, too:
Ask the names of towns and landmarks nearby
Ask for maps of the surrounding area
Ask NPCs where they live
Ask NPCs if you can buy them a drink, take them to dinner, or go have dinner at their house
Inquire about actually purchasing a house in the town (then start invigint NPCs over after you've bought one)
Inquire about local customs, festivals, regular events, laws, the like
Go to the town library and read up on plot-inconsequential, but interesting nontheless
In short, force him to flesh out his world by way of a curious character.

It's simple, won't (shouldn't) destroy the session, and will force him to be creative. Plus, unlike your wall of rubble example, he can't really just handwave that away. ("What do you mean there's no towns or landmarks nearby? Are we on the Astral Plane?") He could pull the "they're not important" route, but...well, there's no counter to that, just hope he doesn't do that, I guess.

Nohwl
2008-11-16, 08:43 PM
the one dm i had forced us to stay in the same room for 90 minutes until he thought of something. when you derail it, have a new quest or idea ready to go as soon as you do.

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-16, 08:54 PM
That's an extreme that's just... stupid, really. And you've talked to him about this already? Then I have no sympathy for him; go wild. If you want maximum effect, you should be a wizard: Polymorph Any Object is awesome for this kind of thing.

<DM> "There's a big rock in front of you."
<You> "I turn it into a human."
<DM> "..."

AmberVael
2008-11-16, 09:03 PM
That's an extreme that's just... stupid, really. And you've talked to him about this already? Then I have no sympathy for him; go wild. If you want maximum effect, you should be a wizard: Polymorph Any Object is awesome for this kind of thing.

<DM> "There's a big rock in front of you."
<You> "I turn it into a human."
<DM> "..."
"Yes I do want to play god, why do you ask?"

HealthKit
2008-11-16, 09:30 PM
My recommendation? Go the Penny Arcade route. Name your character "Jim Darkmagic" and introduce yourself as "Jim Darkmagic of the New Hampshire Darkmagics." :smalltongue:

The New Hampshire Darkmagics are the best branch of the Darkmagics.
The Iowa Darkmagics come pretty close, but lack fundamentals.

Kris Strife
2008-11-17, 06:47 AM
That's how I survived the Tomb of Horrors. If it moved, disintegrate. If it didn't move, disintegrate. Probably lost some loot in the process, but oh well.

Tomb of Horrors has loot? I thought the point was every thing tried to kill you... The walls, ceilings, floors, your pants...

To the OP: diplomacy the BBEG or offer to work for him.

BobVosh
2008-11-17, 06:53 AM
Tomb of Horrors has loot? I thought the point was every thing tried to kill you... The walls, ceilings, floors, your pants...

To the OP: diplomacy the BBEG or offer to work for him.

That is what surprised you? I was surprised there was an end other than "if anyone survived this far, a divine rank 64 T-Rex teleports in and eats the party"

Kris Strife
2008-11-17, 07:13 AM
That is what surprised you? I was surprised there was an end other than "if anyone survived this far, a divine rank 64 T-Rex teleports in and eats the party"

I thought it was the Tarrasque's lair actually.

monty
2008-11-17, 11:34 AM
I thought it was the Tarrasque's lair actually.

I'm a wizard. The tarrasque is no threat.

Sub_Zero
2008-11-17, 12:30 PM
You appear to have pretty much good advice her, but I'd say don't go too over the top with this, it sounds like you don't really want to upset him, just make him think a bit more

FoE
2008-11-17, 12:32 PM
The Tomb of Horrors has plenty of loot! In fact, there's a big pile of gems at the end ... that you have to use as sling stones to defeat the nigh-invincible demi-lich! S***!

Fiery Justice
2008-11-17, 12:36 PM
Play a missionairy cleric (of an uncommon God). Seriously, there exists no better excuse to fail to be a plot-predictable item. Your in town? You have gold for weaponry? No, I think we need a chapel here. You there, whats your name? Bob? Well Bob, have you heard of the glories of Ilmater? You have? Why that is excellent. You don't like Ilmater Bob? Why not? You get where that goes. Do that a lot, your GM will either master making up anti-ilmater (or whatever) people, allow you to convert them, or he'll become extremely frustrated with you. Insist that its character roleplaying and that your benefitting the party. Make sure to collect tithes and take a day off from adventuring as a holy day once weekly.

When your in a dungeon, your behavior shouldn't change, "Why, my goateed friend, have you gone down this evil road? Redemption is not beyond your grasp, turn back from your evil ways," *evil villainous response* "What hope do you have to attain power? In the end one power or another will destroy you, and you shall be sent to the depths of Tarturus for your sins, should you not repent and join the light. But the light is power eternal, and it shall last in this world and the next..."

monty
2008-11-17, 12:43 PM
the nigh-invincible demi-lich!

Disinte...crap.

lin_fusan
2008-11-17, 01:12 PM
I personally won't advocate you to screw with your DM in-game because that is wasted game time. Besides, it's a passive-aggressive method of teaching him a lesson and never really works. At best, he'll decide it's not worth running games. At worst, you'll fight.

I suggest that someone start their own game or offer to run a free-form game, and ask this guy to participate. This way he can learn from others the right way, instead of people telling him it's the wrong way.

Kyeudo
2008-11-17, 01:36 PM
I personally won't advocate you to screw with your DM in-game because that is wasted game time. Besides, it's a passive-aggressive method of teaching him a lesson and never really works. At best, he'll decide it's not worth running games. At worst, you'll fight.

I suggest that someone start their own game or offer to run a free-form game, and ask this guy to participate. This way he can learn from others the right way, instead of people telling him it's the wrong way.

Someone didn't read the thread. This they've already tried talking and teaching with this DM, so they are last resorting to derailing his plot.

ashmanonar
2008-11-17, 01:45 PM
My recommendation? Go the Penny Arcade route. Name your character "Jim Darkmagic" and introduce yourself as "Jim Darkmagic of the New Hampshire Darkmagics." :smalltongue:

Alternately, insist on grappling at least once each session.

Or play an elderly wizard with Alzheimer's.

"I like Ice Cream" as the dragon looms overhead.

turkishproverb
2008-11-17, 01:57 PM
Play a Gnomish Wizard. Try to recruit people to your cult of the god "OA" by offering them green rings enchanted like wands of Mage hand/Telekenisis.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-17, 03:16 PM
I really don't think this is the right way to go about this.

Judging by what I've read, the DM is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to keep you on the rails. When a DM starts arbitrarily nullifying character powers (like disabling summoning) he's not going to be "shaken up" by character actions. At best, you're going to create absurd situations that will infuriate the DM and annoy the party - this leads to gaming breakdown.

Since you've tried talking to your DM and he's still stuck on the "it's my story and I'll cry if I want to" mode of DMing, being passive-aggressive about it isn't going to accomplish anything either. As I see it, you have three choices:

(1) Go along with your DM.
If he tells good stories, then just go with the rails. You can have fun by interacting with NPCs, or making funny situations with your fellow PCs, or whatever.

(2) Have someone else DM.
Suggest to the DM that he take a turn playing games, and have one of the players DM for a change. Perhaps by seeing a game run where PC choices matter, he'll change his mind.

(3) Leave the Game.
If you're not going to be able to have fun, then don't play the game. Tell the DM why you're leaving or don't, but just don't play. Find a new DM, maybe bring your fellow disgruntled players along, and start having fun again.

You can try and make game-breaking characters if you want, but if your DM is going to disable summoning spells when convenient, what makes you think he won't just disable you too?

Dyvim Matt
2008-11-17, 04:18 PM
I second Oracle Hunter. I'm running a Mage: the Ascension game where most of my players are from a HârnMaster campaign suffering from heavy railroading and poorly thought house rules. What they did is a combination of Oracle Hunter's #1 and #3 options. They just make the most of what they can do in terms of roleplaying when playing HârnMaster and brag a lot about their awesome moments from my Mage campaign.

I haven't played DnD in a long time, but if I understand correctly how the later editions work, spells usually succeed more or less automatically, right? If so, and if Q-burt's DM flatly declares that a summoning doesn't work for no particular reason, I believe going out of your way to force the DM's hand through role-playing, "game-breaking" or otherwise, will only garner more "you can't do that" responses...

only1doug
2008-11-17, 06:05 PM
I second Oracle Hunter. I'm running a Mage: the Ascension game where most of my players are from a HârnMaster campaign suffering from heavy railroading and poorly thought house rules. What they did is a combination of Oracle Hunter's #1 and #3 options. They just make the most of what they can do in terms of roleplaying when playing HârnMaster and brag a lot about their awesome moments from my Mage campaign.

I haven't played DnD in a long time, but if I understand correctly how the later editions work, spells usually succeed more or less automatically, right? If so, and if Q-burt's DM flatly declares that a summoning doesn't work for no particular reason, I believe going out of your way to force the DM's hand through role-playing, "game-breaking" or otherwise, will only garner more "you can't do that" responses...

Absolutely correct.

summon spells are no fail, that GM will refuse to allow the players to jump off his railroad tracks.

The best advise I'd give the OP is to have the entire group refuse to follow the tracks at all:

"the summoning failed? OK we will start clearing the tunnel by hand, this may take a few hours of game time but that's OK, we'll stop and take a break every 4 hours and stop for 8 hours once a day. 1 person will stay on watch while the others work and we will rotate the watch / work / rest schedule.
Let us know when we are done."

"But you should go down the other tunnel"

"nope, its obviously a track trap, we will never go down that tunnel"

Flickerdart
2008-11-17, 06:16 PM
Exactly. The Paranoia Rogue thinksknows everything is a trap. Open passage, clear of debris? How could it not be a trap? You took 20 on Search and found nothing? Holy crap, this must be such a powerful trap! Better go the other way.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-17, 06:17 PM
I must admit to a touch of frustration at those who's advice is "don't do it! Talk to the DM instead!"... I've posted twice now that we have all spoken to him, at length, privately, collectively, etc. about his lack of options presented to us, and his inability to do anything that was not preplanned and pre-scripted. I have even had him co-DM a campaign with me, wherein I had him help me flesh out the stuff that I had planned out, as well as the material which I could use if it became possible or necessary. The later material was approximately 5 times the amount of the former. I was attempting to impress upon him that maybe when he DMed in Junior High (20+ years ago) his players wouldn't think of loopholes in his plot or planning, that players wouldn't come up with incredibly creative solutions to the puzzles and problems he presented them with - but we weren't in Junior High any longer. I thought, at the end of that, he had gained a glimmer, but instead during his very next campaign, the following was said...

DM: "No, you guys can't go down the left path yet. I told you, its dark and filled with rubble, making it all but impassible."

Player: "No problem, I am going to summon a bulette to clear a path for us."

DM: "Ummm... no... your summoning fails to work."

Player: "Why??"

DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."

Later on, after we had gone down the "right" path, and procured the item he wanted us to have...

Player: "OK, lets head back to that fork and see what we can do about all that rubble."

DM: "When you get there, the rubble is gone."

At the conclusion of that adventure, I pointed out to him, over a couple beverages, that it would have been just as easy, if it was necessary for us to have the item before proceeding down the "right" path (which it was not), that he could have switched the locations of things in his dungeon to accommodate those choices. His answer? "I can't do that, it would mess up my story." My internal response "I thought this was a team sport."

[/rant]

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read the posts, and offered some good ideas. Some of them are a tad over the top (you know who you are! :) ) but there are also some great ideas here. Thanks! Here's hoping we can make our point to this DM, and get one of our two hoped for results.

Did you have a torch? or the Light spell?
I don't see how dark is a issue.

Then start digging: he say "but it is pointless"
Respond: "But how do we know that. The might be some people trapped in the rubble that we can help."

Rei_Jin
2008-11-17, 06:21 PM
You know what would be even more fun?

Playing as Gandalf.

Dress yourself in white, and say that you are an ancient messenger from the gods, sent to aid man in his time of troubles.

Take levels in Wizard, but never, ever, cast a spell. Except maybe Light, and the odd Shatter spell.

Act all high and mighty, always butt in if someone else is trying diplomacy, but don't put any ranks into any of the social skills.

Then, go and steal the fastest horse in town, and call it Shadowfax. If anyone challenges you about how you got him, tell them that "he is the king of horses, and can run faster than the wind. He came to me, not I to him".

If the DM lets you get away with this, you then have the power of plot on your side. You can do anything, as long as you do it in a suitably epic manner.

You can even cast out spirits by looking at someone fiercely and bopping them on the head with your staff.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-17, 06:25 PM
You know what would be even more fun?

Playing as Gandalf.

Dress yourself in white, and say that you are an ancient messenger from the gods, sent to aid man in his time of troubles.

Take levels in Wizard, but never, ever, cast a spell. Except maybe Light, and the odd Shatter spell.

Act all high and mighty, always butt in if someone else is trying diplomacy, but don't put any ranks into any of the social skills.

Then, go and steal the fastest horse in town, and call it Shadowfax. If anyone challenges you about how you got him, tell them that "he is the king of horses, and can run faster than the wind. He came to me, not I to him".

If the DM lets you get away with this, you then have the power of plot on your side. You can do anything, as long as you do it in a suitably epic manner.

You can even cast out spirits by looking at someone fiercely and bopping them on the head with your staff.

Why not play Aragorn? You are king of all humans.
You can control vast leagues of Shadows and Wraiths.

Rei_Jin
2008-11-17, 06:32 PM
See, that's the beauty of a DM who runs according to stories and won't go outside of them.

You pick a character that he knows, and you play as that character. He won't want to kill them off, in fact, he'll fight himself to not tell THAT story. Over time, he'll be forced to change stories, and begin to improvise.

It works, believe me. I've done it twice already.

Flickerdart
2008-11-17, 06:32 PM
In fact, have the party roll up the Fellowship, and embark on their quest regardless of what world you are in.

monty
2008-11-17, 06:35 PM
In fact, have the party roll up the Fellowship, and embark on their quest regardless of what world you are in.

Too bad there's no cursed version of the Ring of Invisibility.

Flickerdart
2008-11-17, 06:38 PM
Too bad there's no cursed version of the Ring of Invisibility.
Pretend a regular one is cursed. Problem solved.

hotel_papa
2008-11-17, 06:56 PM
If you've talked his ear off, and he still DMs the Mighty Game of Epic Suck, then stop wasting time. Derailing his plot on purpose doesn't teach him a lesson, it pisses him off. It turns a game about teamwork into antagonization.

Stop playing his game. Play another game. Run a game. Many a DM here has taken on the mantle not because we were inspired by brilliant storytelling, but because of disapointment and the knowledge that we can do better.

If you can do better, than run a game. This guy obviously pulls most of his material from Zelda-esque action/adventure games with little plot and less options, so let him play an elvan fighter with Flaw: Annoying Fairie Friend and Bonus Feat: EWP: Boomerang, and move the hell on!

I'm honestly disappointed in some of the people here. This is supposed to be a considerate, constructive forum, and these suggestions are downright malicious. Being a mean, disruptive player doesn't magically turn a crappy DM into a good one, and everyone here knows better than that. It just turns two people against each other over a damn game.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-17, 07:06 PM
Pretend a regular one is cursed. Problem solved.

If you pretend to be Frodo: randomly say to a passing peasant: "Sam I don't know if I can go on."

Let the DM respond and ignore it if it isn't what Sam would say.
And keep going through lines.

Zeful
2008-11-17, 07:26 PM
If you've talked his ear off, and he still DMs the Mighty Game of Epic Suck, then stop wasting time. Derailing his plot on purpose doesn't teach him a lesson, it pisses him off. It turns a game about teamwork into antagonization.

Stop playing his game. Play another game. Run a game. Many a DM here has taken on the mantle not because we were inspired by brilliant storytelling, but because of disapointment and the knowledge that we can do better.

If you can do better, than run a game. This guy obviously pulls most of his material from Zelda-esque action/adventure games with little plot and less options, so let him play an elvan fighter with Flaw: Annoying Fairie Friend and Bonus Feat: EWP: Boomerang, and move the hell on!

I'm honestly disappointed in some of the people here. This is supposed to be a considerate, constructive forum, and these suggestions are downright malicious. Being a mean, disruptive player doesn't magically turn a crappy DM into a good one, and everyone here knows better than that. It just turns two people against each other over a damn game.

This is why I play under the "Stupidity is it's own punishment" rule. Players do something abysmally stupid thinking I'll protect them? They die. I do something stupid I expect my players to take advantage of it. In this case the DM is being stupid by running the rails, he kinda deserves to have his plot ignored or exploited. My advice would to play a CS (Chaotic Stupid) character and randomly kill people and help old ladies across the street. Make yourself two or three percentile charts with random actions and whenever you do anything out of combat, roll for it. That should be enough to ruin his campaign especially when "attack the king" comes up.

Erom
2008-11-17, 07:30 PM
I'm honestly disappointed in some of the people here. This is supposed to be a considerate, constructive forum, and these suggestions are downright malicious. Being a mean, disruptive player doesn't magically turn a crappy DM into a good one, and everyone here knows better than that. It just turns two people against each other over a damn game.

Oh, poo. He's specifically stated he's not out to kill the game. Honestly, how do any of you play if your solution is:

Game features something I dislike.
Talk to DM. DM disagrees. Consensus not reached.
Leave the game.

That's nuts! A railbreaker character played to reasonable limits is a perfectly good way to push a game in the direction you want to play. Saying "I'm taking my ballPHB and going home because of X, Y, and Z." strikes me as needlessly theatrical.

To the OP: Go for it. Shake his world up a bit. Keep in mind out of game friendships and limits, but see how far you can push him off plot!

Knaight
2008-11-17, 07:56 PM
If you can do better, than run a game. This guy obviously pulls most of his material from Zelda-esque action/adventure games with little plot and less options, so let him play an elvan fighter with Flaw: Annoying Fairie Friend and Bonus Feat: EWP: Boomerang, and move the hell on!


Little plot, yes, as for options the legend of Zelda games are usually pretty good by video game standards, seeing as they aren't hack fests. That said, running a game is a good idea, as the guy seems like a lost cause, as this is pretty major.

only1doug
2008-11-18, 02:04 PM
If you've talked his ear off, and he still DMs the Mighty Game of Epic Suck, then stop wasting time. Derailing his plot on purpose doesn't teach him a lesson, it pisses him off. It turns a game about teamwork into antagonization.

Stop playing his game. Play another game. Run a game. Many a DM here has taken on the mantle not because we were inspired by brilliant storytelling, but because of disapointment and the knowledge that we can do better.



the problem is that the OP has run several games and has other games available to play. His friend the GM really wants to run a game but every time they let him try they run into the same problem.

so the OP wants to help his friend learn. talking it through has had no benefit so in-game lessons are needed.

Which is why i suggested that the PC's refuse to walk on the tracks. treat any obvious railroading as a trap and refuse to give up on the other choice's that the GM is trying to driving you away from.
If the GM gives up and says "why won't you play" then that's the first crack in his armour and it could well lead to him becoming a better GM.

TheCountAlucard
2008-11-18, 02:57 PM
I second the whole "asking about minor details" suggestion - it's just innocuous enough to not throw everything into chaos, but it'd probably be enough to get him to start improvising more. Ask the names of NPCs, what they're wearing, et cetera.

Quincunx
2008-11-18, 03:15 PM
Rei Jin's suggestion has the most leverage. To all the people wanting to train the DM in the art of improv detail, it's good form but a well-fleshed-out railroad will still be a railroad. If the "throw a monkey wrench shaped like a different railroad" doesn't work, and your group agrees with you, just start DMing amongst yourselves at that table. The chance of that enlightening your DM is unfortunately nil, but you can salvage your session at least, and maybe segue smoothly into one of the others picking up the ultimate authority and becoming the new DM.

Kris Strife
2008-11-18, 06:45 PM
Pretend a regular one is cursed. Problem solved.

When worn, 1d8+1 dread wraiths with see invisibility are summoned. For every month it is in your possession, make a cumulative DC 5 Will save, or permanantly randomly loose one point from Con, Wis, or Cha. These can not be restored until ring is destroyed or taken by another. For every mile closer you draw to Mt. Doom, the rings weight increases by 5 lbs.

Zanticor
2008-11-18, 06:53 PM
I find playing an illusionist shakes up my DM. Just keep coming up with inovative illusions and your DM constantly has to think about how this new one changes the situation. Great for both role playing and combat. Just don´t expect everything to go as planned or always ruled in your favour.

Zanticor

The Glyphstone
2008-11-18, 07:11 PM
I find playing an illusionist shakes up my DM. Just keep coming up with inovative illusions and your DM constantly has to think about how this new one changes the situation. Great for both role playing and combat. Just don´t expect everything to go as planned or always ruled in your favour.

Zanticor

Only in theory - this sort of DM is likely to just say that every enemy automatically disbelieves the illusions...

Yahzi
2008-11-18, 10:48 PM
DM: "Because... it just fails. You don't know why."
One of my long-ago games...

Me: "I attack the King!"

DM: "You can't. He hides in his castle."

Me: "I get a pickaxe and start attacking the castle."

DM: "It doesn't work."

Me: "Why not?"

DM: "The castle is made of... solidness."

:smallbiggrin:

So we cut down the forest, piled it around the castle, and set it fire. When we broke out heat density formulas, she told us there was a secret tunnel under the castle, and the King had fled through it.

Mind you, we were 2nd level. :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2008-11-18, 11:00 PM
When worn, 1d8+1 dread wraiths with see invisibility are summoned. For every month it is in your possession, make a cumulative DC 5 Will save, or permanantly randomly loose one point from Con, Wis, or Cha. These can not be restored until ring is destroyed or taken by another. For every mile closer you draw to Mt. Doom, the rings weight increases by 5 lbs.
Except it does none of those things, which doesn't stop the Halfling from pretending it does. When the DM uses his NPCs to make the halfling see that he's being dumb, use the "lalala I'm not listening" defence.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-11-18, 11:13 PM
My internal response "I thought this was a team sport."

I think that is the crux of the whole thing. It is a team sport. It is important for players to remember that the DM is a player too AND for the DM to remember the players need to have a stake in the way things go.

The DM, keep in mind, does quite a bit of work in making his story and world. Some DMs (maybe yours) do this for themselves, as though they are writing a book. Most DMs (I hope) do this work for the players.

When you get a particularly railroady DM, it could be that he doesn't feel comfortable with improvising. (Some DMs are better improvisers, and some are better planners.) This uncomfortability may be exaggerated by the fact that a lot of players tend to treat the DM's plot as an enemy they must defeat. By that, I mean a lot of what is being said in this thread (ex. killing of important NPCs or not taking quests). At best, this merely leaves you without a session for the night. At worst, it makes the DM wonder why he spent all that time working on a session for you guys.

So I think the best thing to do would be this: try to find the places in which he IS comfortable improvising. Maybe you have to take a hit by being railroaded onto quests or inside dungeons, but you can find ways to explore and open him up during social situations. Maybe what he mostly needs is practice. (Xanticor's illusionist example above is a decent solution I'd say.)

Alternatively, ask him to be a player for a while, and then design an open-ended campaign for him (which won't be easy) to romp around in to see what it is like to have control over the game from the other side (and, sometimes, no control).

But, if you take the more extreme paths listed here, then I suggest it can only have one of two outcomes: 1) the DM gets mad and quits DMing, or 2) the DM just finds a more extreme way to railroad your, breaking your suspension of disbelief even further. Neither of these results solve your problem, right?

-Pocket believes even the most open-ended campaigns are just run by really sneaky railroaders :smalltongue:

(ps. All that being said, the rocks in the hallway thing is bad. It sounds like the problem is inexperience and not being comfortable with his improvisation skills.)

Kris Strife
2008-11-18, 11:24 PM
Except it does none of those things, which doesn't stop the Halfling from pretending it does. When the DM uses his NPCs to make the halfling see that he's being dumb, use the "lalala I'm not listening" defence.

Good description of the Ring itself though?
and for added craziness, act as though the npcs are the wraiths.

Heliomance
2008-11-18, 11:40 PM
One of my long-ago games...

Me: "I attack the King!"

DM: "You can't. He hides in his castle."

Me: "I get a pickaxe and start attacking the castle."

DM: "It doesn't work."

Me: "Why not?"

DM: "The castle is made of... solidness."

:smallbiggrin:

So we cut down the forest, piled it around the castle, and set it fire. When we broke out heat density formulas, she told us there was a secret tunnel under the castle, and the King had fled through it.

Mind you, we were 2nd level. :smallbiggrin:

Too late. You've woken it up. The gazebo eats you.

Fri
2008-11-19, 12:33 AM
I really like the idea of asking NPC names. But take this a step further, too:[List]
Ask the names of towns and landmarks nearby
Ask for maps of the surrounding area
Ask NPCs where they live
Ask NPCs if you can buy them a drink, take them to dinner, or go have dinner at their house
Inquire about actually purchasing a house in the town (then start invigint NPCs over after you've bought one)
Inquire about local customs, festivals, regular events, laws, the like
Go to the town library and read up on plot-inconsequential, but interesting nontheless
In short, force him to flesh out his world by way of a curious character.

It's simple, won't (shouldn't) destroy the session, and will force him to be creative. Plus, unlike your wall of rubble example, he can't really just handwave that away. ("What do you mean there's no towns or landmarks nearby? Are we on the Astral Plane?") He could pull the "they're not important" route, but...well, there's no counter to that, just hope he doesn't do that, I guess.

I second this idea for reason already explained by posters before me. If your DM actually make your summon didn't work, he can make your disintegrate, your diplomacy, or anything fizzles. But this. He can't ban talking or roleplaying from his game. Can he?

Oh, and it won't actually destroy the game/story that your dm had made for who knows how long unlike half of the other suggestion here.

Q-burt
2008-11-19, 10:17 AM
Alright, here’s the scoop.

We played last night. Prior to the game, I had talked with the 3 other players who were going to be involved in this session, and we discussed our concerns. We all agreed that we did not want to alienate or upset... we’ll call him “Bob”... but that we no longer wanted to play in a game that he was running if he was going to continue to run in his usual fashion. We all agreed that we liked Bob, and that he was a damned good friend (he’s my son’s godfather!) But that we just hated playing his games. We also agreed that he’s a great player, and we didn’t want to lose him from the group. Finally, we all agreed to try and give him one more chance to let us have a real roleplaying experience, but that he should be informed that we were no longer interested in being railroaded to the extent that he usually maintained.

So...

We made our characters.

Mine: A human rogue with a penchant for pyrokinetics and destruction. But with a good sized smattering of social skills and a few scrolls of Glibness. (You can see where that is going)

Player 2: A dwarven cleric specializing in buffing the party to the yin-yang.

Player 3: A minotaur ranger (long story, he loves bulls) who had HUGE survival and knowledge nature skills.

Player 4: Jack of all trades, human wizard, specializing in nothing, mastering all. :) He took the doddering old semi-lunatic idea and ran with it.

Prior to the game beginning, we informed Bob of our dissatisfaction, and offered to play Risk or Axis and Allies, video games, poker or anything else he wanted that night, so we could all talk about the problem one more time, have a few... beverages, and still enjoy our evening together. Bob declined, saying he understood our issues, and had worked quite hard on this adventure, making sure to leave lots of “wiggle room” for creativity. Heartened by this, we ordered our Chinese food and took our seats. We gave him one ultimatum... if he used the phrase “because I said so” or any of its variants, and could not back up his ruling with an actual rule, we would agree to end the game.


The session begins.

Spoilered because its long...


We begin in an encampment, with no idea or story as to how we all got there or why we are working together. We were ordered by the mercenary commander’s aide to attend the commander in his tent. The aide then left. The following conversation then occurs.

Rogue: ((DM, how long have we been in this encampment?))
DM: ((Ummm... not long at all. You all arrived this morning.))
Ranger: ((Have we met the commander before?))
DM: ((Nope))
Rogue: Well then lads! We’re off to see the wizard.
Wizard: What? You blasted fools! I am right here, in front of you. There’s no need to go anywhere.
(We proceed to have about 20 minutes of “getting to know each other RP)
Rogue: Well, the commander is probably getting anxious, but I have no idea where he might be located. Anyone else know where we can find him?
All: No idea at all.
Rogue: (grabbing the sleeve of a passing soldier) You there! What’s your name?
DM: Ummmm... Steve.
Rogue: Steve. Excellent. And your rank?
DM: Why?
Rogue: (rolls bluff, gets a 32) Damn it soldier, when I ask a question, I expect you to answer it. When I say jump you are in the air when you ask me how high! Now drop and give me 20!
DM: ((Umm... he drops to the ground and starts doing push ups.))
Wizard: Excellent! Calisthenics for everyone! You there! (Points to another passing soldier) Attend us immediately.
DM: ((The other soldier just ignores you and keeps walking.))
Ranger: INSUBORDINATION!!!! TREASON!!!! TRAITOR!!!! (Draws his axes and advances upon the walking soldier. ((I want to roll initiative))
DM: ((WHY? He’s not a monster, he’s just a human soldier!))
Ranger: ((Because I am going along with the rogue))
Rogue: Steve! Who is that soldier? (Points at soldier who ignored us)
DM: Umm... his name is... John.
Rogue: John! (Rolls an intimidate, gets a 28) Where in the name of the lowest hells do you think you are going son!? Get your sorry excuse for a carcass over here before I have lieutenant Morkash eat your liver on a pointy stick!
DM: ((Guys, what are you doing? You’re supposed to go to the commander’s tent to get your assignment!))
Cleric: ((We’re roleplaying Bob. Let’s see where it goes, OK?))
DM: ((But I thought we were going to play my adventure tonight.))
Cleric: ((Bob, we don’t want to play “your” adventure, we’d rather play “our” adventure.))
DM: ((Fine... you intimidated him.))
DM: John comes over and says “Yes sir?”
Rogue: Get the men together, and have them line up for inspection. Double time! I don’t want to hear any crap from you or anyone else. If they refuse, you gut them like fish. NOW SOLDIER!
DM: (He runs off to get the men ready) ((Now will you please go to the commander’s tent?))
Wizard: Stephen... Stevie.... You there! The one with his knees in the mud. You will conduct us to the commander’s tent at once.
DM: ((Finally!)) He gets up and starts to lead you to the commander’s tent. When you enter the tent -
Rogue: ((Whoa! Describe the tent for us please.))
DM: ((Umm... it’s a large tent. Bigger than the rest of them. When you go in-))
Cleric: ((Anything other than size set it apart from the rest of the tents in camp?))
DM: ((Nope, it looks just like all the others. OK, no... its got a banner hanging from a pole in the front. There, happy? Now, when you go in-))
Rogue: ((Indeed! What’s on the banner?))
DM: ((Some sort of symbol. The commander looks up from some charts and says-))
Rogue: ((A heraldry symbol?))
DM: ((Yes, OK? He looks at you and says-))
Rogue: ((What is it of?)) (Rolls Knowledge Nobility and gets a natural 20, with bonuses a 32)
DM: ((Ummm... its... a local family symbol. Can we move on now, please?))
Rogue: ((And what do I know about the family? Remember a 32 on a knowledge check means I know about skeletons in their collective closets.))
DM: ((Nothing. They aren’t important.))
Rogue: ((OK then. I march into the tent as though I own it.)) Commander. (I scoff) You and your insignificant family have wasted enough time on this task-
DM: ((You don’t even know what the task is yet!))
Rogue: ((I know that...)) Why, in the entire history of your family you have never managed to do anything that will distinguish you or your bloodline. Not one notable even has occurred. And yet you hang your banner with pride! Why do you bother?
DM: ((I didn’t say that!))
Cleric: ((Yes, you did.))

We carried on in that vein for about an hour, until we ended up forcing the commander to prove to us why we should even work for him. Came up with a story about his father and some trolls. We then haggled like hell over the “reward” that he offered. When we finally agreed to do as he asked (clear out a cave complex full of orcs... cliche, I know) we stipulated that it was with all the resources available to us. He agreed. When we left, we attempted to have all the soldiers accompany us (one of the scrolls of Glibness gave me a bluff of 61) and then explained how, by the rules, the soldiers would believe that they were supposed to accompany us. When they refused (with no rule or RP to back it up), we briefly entertained the notion of starting one mass combat... then decided against it as it wasn’t in the RP or alignments of anyone in the party. When we were about to end the game (per our agreement) the commander came out and ordered the soldiers not to listen to us, and laid out the agreement again. He stated argued that while they (the soldiers) might be “resources available to us” they were not “ours” and to use them would be like stealing. The Ranger, with a huge streak of honor, decided to side with the commander on that. Some discussion ensued, and we headed off on our mission.

We went into the mountains, sneaking past 4 encounters. We had another rules dispute with the DM over the use of stealth, invisibility and the like, as he attempted to have each of them notice us, which required massive handwaving on his part. When we asked him to crunch the numbers for us on how exactly they had beaten our stealthish rolls, he couldn’t explain it and finally gave up.

We arrived near the cavern’s entrance, and rather than going in, decided to search for alternate entrances. After 6 days of searching (with some extremely high search, knowledge nature, knowledge dungeoneering and other skills) we determined that there was only one entrance. That entrance slanted upwards into the mountain. We fought and defeated the 8 guardians of the entrance and then built a giant fire at the entrance, and used magic to force the smoke into the entrance. Then we trotted out the Smoke rules... The DM said that the smoke was not going into the entrance after all. We asked him to explain how that was possible, and he gave us the old “it just isn’t”...

Our game ended.

That’s the bad news. The good news is that we talked (over a couple bottles of wine) about what we did and why we did it. I pointed out that he had managed some improvisations, the names of some soldiers, the men lining up, the commander trying to defend his family’s name, etc. We pointed out the fun we had sneaking past the ogres, the chuckling that was happening as a result of the wizard’s illusionary distractions for the random encounters... we noted that in 6 hours we had “completed” what he thought would take 3 sessions...

He capitulated. He agreed that he didn’t like DMing this sort of game, but that it was fun for us. He explained that he didn’t have any fun DMing when things didn’t go as he wanted them to, because he was afraid that we wouldn’t have any fun. He did note that he loved playing in that kind of game though, and agreed to play only from now on. He did ask if he could continue to help me with prep work, as he said he’d found that enjoyable, and it was fun to co-DM.

We’re going to call this one a victory. We made our points, we’re all still friends, and we don’t have to worry about upsetting him by turning down any of his games any more. Its not perfect, but it worked.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-19, 10:38 AM
Rogue: ((DM, how long have we been in this encampment?))
DM: ((Ummm... not long at all. You all arrived this morning.))
Ranger: ((Have we met the commander before?))
DM: ((Nope))
Rogue: Well then lads! We’re off to see the wizard.
Wizard: What? You blasted fools! I am right here, in front of you. There’s no need to go anywhere.

I love this exchange of dialogue.


We’re going to call this one a victory. We made our points, we’re all still friends, and we don’t have to worry about upsetting him by turning down any of his games any more. Its not perfect, but it worked.

Glad it worked out.

Jayabalard
2008-11-19, 10:45 AM
Oh, poo. He's specifically stated he's not out to kill the game. You really shouldn't be suprised though when someone states that he are out to kill the game, specifically by turning the game into something antagonistic instead of something cooperative.


Honestly, how do any of you play if your solution is:

Game features something I dislike.
Talk to DM. DM disagrees. Consensus not reached.
Leave the game.I don't understand how you can be confused by this. If I can't reach some sort of middle ground with a dm, there's no point in me playing with them. If I leave and go elsewhere, I can play with people where I can have a meeting of the minds.


That's nuts! A railbreaker character played to reasonable limits is a perfectly good way to push a game in the direction you want to play. No, it's a horrible way to deal with the situation; anyone who does so is a bad evil person* and if you do it you should be ashamed of yourself

*Hopefully that's PC enough of a descriptor.


Saying "I'm taking my ballPHB and going home because of X, Y, and Z." strikes me as needlessly theatrical.I don't think that anyone has actually suggest saying anything even close to that. The particular words that you're using is only thing that makes that statement theatrical in the least; there's no requirement to be theatrical when you tell someone that you're not compatible and that it's best for everyone involved if you find a different game.

Q-burt
2008-11-19, 10:49 AM
He's also implicitly stated that he is out to kill the game by turning the game into something antagonistic instead of something cooperative.

As a matter of fact, no, I never said that. I pointed out that we were trying, repeatedly, to find a mutually agreeable solution, and that we did not want to hurt the DM in question's feelings. We were attempting to make him be cooperative, not the reverse.

Jayabalard, I respect your opinions (I've lurked here for a long time) but what you wrote there has no basis in anything I wrote or even implied. Did you read the section above wherein I wrote out what happened? The multiple conversations we had with the DM about his playstyle and why we didn't care for it? The compromises we worked out?

Calling me antagonistic, even by proxy, was unfair and uncalled for. I respect your right to "leave and go elsewhere" but as I stated on multiple occassions, we didn't want to lose this individual from our play group, and didn't want to upset him or force him to leave either.

Neko Toast
2008-11-19, 11:32 AM
Q-burt: Just slightly off-topic, I applaud your roleplaying skills. I wish I were that good. :smallfrown:

On-topic, I think you handled that situation very well. No one was hurt, and everyone's happy in the end.

Jayabalard: Walking away from something like that makes you a quitter. Sometimes it's best to compromise or find a way to reason with the DM.

Honestly, if you walked away from every game where you had a dispute with the DM, you wouldn't be doing a whole lot of gaming.

Ethdred
2008-11-19, 11:35 AM
Glad things have shaped up now - also sounded like it was a fun session (for the players at least). Hopefully your group will go onto even better things now.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-19, 12:44 PM
Well, I'm surprised it worked as well as it did. Congratulations!

Jayabalard
2008-11-19, 01:10 PM
Jayabalard: Walking away from something like that makes you a quitter. Sometimes it's best to compromise or find a way to reason with the DM.Nothing in this statement disagrees with what I posted in any way, though you seem to be trying to throw some sort of negative spin on what I've said. I'm strictly talking about when it's not possible to compromise, when it's not possible to reason with the DM.

There's nothing wrong with walking away from a situation like that; it's the best option. The worst option is to try to show them they're wrong by disrupting their game; it's extremely juvenile behavior.


Honestly, if you walked away from every game where you had a dispute with the DM, you wouldn't be doing a whole lot of gaming.This isn't what I've suggested at all. "If I can't reach some sort of middle ground with a dm," isn't just that I've had a dispute... that means that I'm talking about when I am unable to reach a middle ground.

Not doing a whole lot of gaming isn't a bad thing in and of itself; personally I far prefer that to wasting time on bad gaming.

Neko Toast
2008-11-19, 02:11 PM
Jayabalard: You're right, I misunderstood.

But still, don't you think you're making bad assumptions, too? In no way did Q-burt ever say that he was trying to ruin the game. He was merely trying to make it more enjoyable for the players.

Sub_Zero
2008-11-19, 02:17 PM
woo, all sorted, I hope you have more fun in your games from now on then. If he continues to help you he may eventually learn to stop railroading as well, doesn't sound likely, but you know, you can always hope :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2008-11-19, 02:38 PM
Some of my stupidest moments came from a DM like this.

I was playing a wizard at the time.

DM: He ties you up.
Me: Hands at my sides?
DM: Yes.
Me: I'll cast my Stilled deep slumber.
DM: Your components were ruined by the water.
Me: Alright, I'll use my wand of charm person.
DM: How? You can't reach your backpack.
Me: It's in my sleeve. I'll aim it by holding it with my pinkie.
DM: You can't. He took it off you.
Me: What, my pinkie?

Laughter all around.

Jayabalard
2008-11-19, 02:52 PM
In no way did Q-burt ever say that he was trying to ruin the game. I'll have to disagree there; the entire purpose of the thread was to "Shake up a DM" by specifically work against the GM's game style in order in order to teach him a lesson; the goal was to ruin the game that the GM was trying to run. That's a profoundly juvenile method of handling a disagreement over game style.

Erom
2008-11-19, 02:57 PM
There's nothing wrong with walking away from a situation like that; it's the best option.
Yeah, I totally disagree with this. Most adults can handle a little confrontation, but most people only have one or two people they know that are willing to DM at all. To echo what was said before - if you walk away from games for this, something I feel is relatively minor, you lose what for most people is one of their only opportunities to game, and for many people one of the rare opportunities to hang out with friends.

Sorry if I came on a little strong earlier in the thread.

Q-burt
2008-11-19, 03:20 PM
I'll have to disagree there; the entire purpose of the thread was to "Shake up a DM" by specifically work against the GM's game style in order in order to teach him a lesson; the goal was to ruin the game that the GM was trying to run. That's a profoundly juvenile method of handling a disagreement over game style.

{Scrubbed} I believe what I have written in this thread shows that myself and my fellow players have demonstrated a great deal of patience and persavarance with a fellow DM friend, trying over and over to make him a better DM. When that failed, we needed a way to demonstrate that change was required.

Neko Toast
2008-11-19, 04:17 PM
{Scrubbed} I believe what I have written in this thread shows that myself and my fellow players have demonstrated a great deal of patience and persavarance with a fellow DM friend, trying over and over to make him a better DM. When that failed, we needed a way to demonstrate that change was required.

*nod* Exactly.

I'm sorry, Jayabalard, but the things you've been saying, you make it sound like he said flat out "you're a terrible DM." If you ask me, saying that is much more rude than what they did. They were only trying to help their friend.

NeoVid
2008-11-19, 04:56 PM
"Yes I do want to play god, why do you ask?"

"However, as I am a wizard, I'm not playing..."

At least I ended up with a GM who will let us know when he doesn't want us to go outside the script.

"The door slams and locks behind you. It appears to be made of solid railroad material and can only be broken by a plot hammer."

Zeful
2008-11-19, 05:27 PM
"However, as I am a wizard, I'm not playing..."

At least I ended up with a GM who will let us know when he doesn't want us to go outside the script.

"The door slams and locks behind you. It appears to be made of solid railroad material and can only be broken by a plot hammer."

Which is why DMs should answer questions with questions.