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Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-16, 12:38 AM
So my wizard is getting "accidentally" pickpocketed by another PC character (a kinder).

spot VS sleight of hand checks....

we had a big debate over wether or not my familiar (6 int) should get a spot check also b/c we are "one being" etc.

does the slieight of hand check have to beat everyones's spot check. AS in everyone in the vacinity? or just the person the pickpocketer doesnt want to see him ( which i assume is always everyone right? )

should my familiar get a spot check?

thoughts? comments?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-16, 12:40 AM
You can have conversations with your familiar.:smallsmile: - It's not "one being' with you. I don't know if it would get a spot check by default, but if there's a Kender around, you should be giving it standing orders to always watch the Kender...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-16, 12:48 AM
If their Slight of Hand check beats the flat DC 20, they get whatever they were going for, regardless of whether or not anyone notices.

A Familiar with Int 6 is smart enough to know what's yours isn't his, even an ordinary dog has a concept of what's-mine-is-mine. So yes, it does get a Spot check to notice someone picking your pocket, it's a separate creature from you and makes its own checks for that sort of thing. Also, don't forget you get Alertness when it's nearby.

Make a bunch of little notes and cast Explosive Runes on each of them, then put one in each of your pockets. If you can get a Lesser Rod of Maximize, use that when casting them to really teach him a lesson.

RTGoodman
2008-11-16, 12:56 AM
Make a bunch of little notes and cast Explosive Runes on each of them, then put one in each of your pockets. If you can get a Lesser Rod of Maximize, use that when casting them to really teach him a lesson.

Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly. I mean, it's not like he can help tak.... er, picking up other peoples' stuff, and once he accidentally gets a hold of some awesome paper that blows up when he reads it, he'll probably want to KEEP looking for more of it just because of how neat it is.


Anyway, on topic, to clarify what Biffoniacus said, they have to beat a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to see if they even get anything, and THEN the person gets a Spot check vs. the same SoH check to see if they notice. I'd say both you and your familiar would get a chance to see it.

(As an aside, my first thought when I saw "familiar" and "kender" were that, somewhere out there, there's a game going on where a kender is attempting to steal a wizard's familiar, and it was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:)

Ent
2008-11-16, 12:56 AM
If your DM is nice and playing that your familiar is never a target and probably won't ever get killed, I wouldn't try to milk it.

BobVosh
2008-11-16, 01:04 AM
(As an aside, my first thought when I saw "familiar" and "kender" were that, somewhere out there, there's a game going on where a kender is attempting to steal a wizard's familiar, and it was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:)

I was thinking the kender was going to be a familiar.

Which is all they should ever be, why the rest of the races haven't done genocide on kenders yet is beyond me. Worst race ever.


Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly. I mean, it's not like he can help tak.... er, picking up other peoples' stuff, and once he accidentally gets a hold of some awesome paper that blows up when he reads it, he'll probably want to KEEP looking for more of it just because of how neat it is.

That is why you go incantrix, take easy metamagic, arcane thesis. Empowered, maximize, explosive, and repeating explosive runes. (I originally typed that as explosive runs...think on that for a second)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-16, 01:14 AM
Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly. I mean, it's not like he can help tak.... er, picking up other peoples' stuff, and once he accidentally gets a hold of some awesome paper that blows up when he reads it, he'll probably want to KEEP looking for more of it just because of how neat it is.

I have a general dislike for races with a "drawback" like that. Running into an NPC of that sort every now and then is tolerable, but a PC who does it is just disruptive to game play. He's likely to die anyway along with the rest of the party because he's been filching everyone's spell components and there ends up being a TPK.

bosssmiley
2008-11-16, 10:39 AM
Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly.

Actions have consequences: if you can't take them, then don't instigate a chain of events that'll end up that way.

Anything terrible that happens to his character in this instance serves the player right for playing a filthy little kleptoHobbit in the first place. A faceful of Explosive Runes might encourage the guy to play a race without built-in jerk factor next time. :smallamused:

Dysfunction and stealing from party members != good role-playing.

As for the OP's original question, don't familiars give their owner the Awareness feat anyway? I assume that would be to account for the second pair of eyes in the partnership...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-16, 12:33 PM
Yes, your Familiar gets a Spot check. As does the rest of the party. Whether or not they speak up, of course....

Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-18, 09:18 PM
If their Slight of Hand check beats the flat DC 20, they get whatever they were going for, regardless of whether or not anyone notices.

A Familiar with Int 6 is smart enough to know what's yours isn't his, even an ordinary dog has a concept of what's-mine-is-mine. So yes, it does get a Spot check to notice someone picking your pocket, it's a separate creature from you and makes its own checks for that sort of thing. Also, don't forget you get Alertness when it's nearby.

Make a bunch of little notes and cast Explosive Runes on each of them, then put one in each of your pockets. If you can get a Lesser Rod of Maximize, use that when casting them to really teach him a lesson.

that was my next point: iot was determined that my familiar WOULD get a spot check but it would not be helpful because as he is an animal he woudl not understand "stealing".

of course i argued taht this was bogus because despite being an animal he has an intel of 6 and has been at my side for a long time.

Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-18, 09:25 PM
Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly. I mean, it's not like he can help tak.... er, picking up other peoples' stuff, and once he accidentally gets a hold of some awesome paper that blows up when he reads it, he'll probably want to KEEP looking for more of it just because of how neat it is.


Anyway, on topic, to clarify what Biffoniacus said, they have to beat a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to see if they even get anything, and THEN the person gets a Spot check vs. the same SoH check to see if they notice. I'd say both you and your familiar would get a chance to see it.

(As an aside, my first thought when I saw "familiar" and "kender" were that, somewhere out there, there's a game going on where a kender is attempting to steal a wizard's familiar, and it was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:)

I wasnt aware that that is how sleight of hand worked.

any other ideas to anti-kender myself? i was thinking a few locks on my packs/bags and maybe something inexpensive and shiney in every pocket i own so that in the event that he does get into my stuff again he'll take the worthless shiny thing instead of my spell components, scrolls, etc.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-18, 09:30 PM
Animals are INT 2 or less. Your familiar is a Magical Beast. Int 6 makes him pretty dimwitted, but he's still intelligent, and perfectly capable of understanding the concept of theft, particularly theft of your stuff.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-21, 05:34 PM
Well, that's not really fair to a kender, and'll probably end up killing him really quickly. I mean, it's not like he can help tak.... er, picking up other peoples' stuff
My understanding is that kender are free-willed sapient beings and not in fact under any irresistible compulsion to meddle with others' belongings. They just come from a culture where that behavior is considered acceptable. As such, the first measure against this misbehavior should be to inform the kender that it is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

If this is ineffectual, then harsher means of dissuasion may be warranted.


As for the OP's original question, don't familiars give their owner the Awareness feat anyway? I assume that would be to account for the second pair of eyes in the partnership...
"Alertness", and yes. It doesn't quite seem reasonable to me that a familiar should be able to grant that and make its own Spot and Listen checks. This is especially the case if the familiar's presence is routinely handwaved away when it would be detrimental, as Ent points out.

Also, note that just because a familiar notices something, that doesn't mean that it can communicate it.

Rogue: *Ka-steal!*
Familiar: Meow!
Wizard: What is it, Kitty?
Familiar: MEOW!
Wizard: My empathic link with her tells me that she's angry.
Rogue: How very odd. I wonder why that would be.
Familiar (at Rogue): Meow! Ssssssss!
Rogue: What? What did I do?

You get to roll Sense Motive against the Rogue's Bluff, but that may not help you too much.

Thurbane
2008-11-21, 07:07 PM
Rogue: *Ka-steal!*
Familiar: Meow!
Wizard: What is it, Kitty?
Familiar: MEOW!
Wizard: My empathic link with her tells me that she's angry.
Rogue: How very odd. I wonder why that would be.
Familiar (at Rogue): Meow! Ssssssss!
Rogue: What? What did I do?
That's pretty much how I'd interpret it. The familiar would definitely get a Spot check.

That's the nice thing about raven familiars. Even though +3 to Appraise sucks, they can talk. :smallsmile:

Kantolin
2008-11-21, 07:38 PM
Animals are INT 2 or less. Your familiar is a Magical Beast. Int 6 makes him pretty dimwitted, but he's still intelligent

This. Especially when you hit int 5, in which they become as smart as your average half-orc.

Also at 5 they get 'speak with master', which helps clarify empathic sillyness. Around now is when I usually work on having a pseudo-code with my familiar for empathic purposes.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-21, 07:53 PM
Well, other familiars can also speak with their masters, so long as their masters are level 5 or higher. Not to anyone else, though. Being able to both fly and talk makes a raven handy for delivering messages, in some cases.

On the other hand, a bonus to Fort saves, or Spot checks, or etc., or even a few extra hit points, can be pretty useful at low levels, so it balances out.

You could always be a gnome illusionist with a weasel familiar. Weasels burrow, right? I can't really imagine where they'd live, if not in burrows.