[3.5e] The How-It-Should-Be Monk, Brainstorming

[Fax Celestis]

I'm working on a monk rewrite at the moment, centered around being a martial status-dealer (as brought up in Quietus' interesting thread recently). What are some things you'd like for a HiSB Monk to be able to do, status-effect wise? Remember to target multiple saves and that damage is not the primary function of these strikes.

[thegurullamen]

I think the idea's been covered sufficiently in many of the monk's various rewrites. (ToB comes to mind.)

Still, the normal things like sickenings, instadeath and stunning are always classics. Systematic destruction could be good, too. I remember the scene at the end of The Protector where Tony Jaa severed every last one of a goon's tendons. He fell down in a big, twitchy mess. Coolness ensued.

[Ziegander]

You've played Final Fantasy X right? Auron's breaks? Power Break, Magic Break, etc. I built a class I called the Sohei which was based around the ability to deny his opponents specific bonuses by attacking them - bonuses like Str to attacks and damage, Dex to AC and skills, or Wis to anything. I also had one that removed half the target's DR, energy resistance and temporary hit points. Later the Sohei gains the ability to gain the bonuses she has denied her opponents. Still later the Sohei is able to dispel magic with melee attacks, and then even later, later she can gain the magical effect she has dispelled.

So... I think a lot of that is what you're going for. I'll get you a link to the class tomorrow. I assume whatever weird is going on at the Wiz boards will be over by then. :smalleek:

[DrakebloodIV]

I think he should cast Touch-Range attacks with his hands with either Wis or Str affecting how successful his spells are.

Here are a few status's that would be cool as monk abilities:

Eye gouging- Blindness
Throat Punching- ?
Foot sweeps- Knocked Prone
Temple Punch- Unconciousness
Knee crushing kick- Movement speed -10 (minimum 5 ft)
Kidney Punch- ?
The possibilities are endless

[The Glyphstone]

Throat Punch - Silence effect.
Kidney Punch - Nauseate effect.

[DrakebloodIV]

Throat Punch - Silence effect.

Sounds okay, but a throat punch leaves you gaging and coughing, not just mute

[Kellus]

He should also work well in a party by hampering enemies' saving throws themselves. Such as, instead of a jab to the stomach that forces a Fort save or status effect x, he uses a jab to the stomach that drops their Fort save against someone else.

He should also be able to resist or be immune to many status effects himself, and possibly help others recover from them too, with his ki or chi or whatever you want to call it.

Honestly, for more inspiration look at ambush feats. That's basically the sort of thing you're talking about. It would be interesting if he had imaginary damage of some kind that he applied to his unarmed damage that he can use to trade out for various status effects.

[starwoof]

Monks should be able to use punches and kicks that send their enemies flying, and they should be able to use it as part of a full attack.

[Ziegander]

Well, Christmas come early!

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17096042&postcount=4

That's how I "rebuilt" the Monk. Use as inspiration as you desire.

[Zeta Kai]

You've played Final Fantasy X right? Auron's breaks? Power Break, Magic Break, etc.

You mean this? I don't know if that's really what the D&D monk should have been. I think the monk should have been more like a martial version of the psion, a person that can use their focused, enlightened mind to produce amazing physical results. The monk should be a perfect blend of mind, body, & spirit.

[Ziegander]

I'll admit, I was inspired by your Auron class to complete my "Monk rewrite" for Warrior's Way. I don't think my Sohei is exactly the martial Psion your talking about (which I agree has some merit), but it literally has a class feature called Body-Mind-Soul if that's any consolation.

[Gralamin]

Fear effects. A monk whose fighting style is focused on completely dominating their enemies spirit through sheer awesomeness in combat would work well (Whether by destroying their morale by frustrating them with the status effects, or by being an unstoppable killing machine)

Another 'style' (by which of course I mean a set of abilities you can choose to take) could be based on being completely at peace during battle, and the effects such serenity could have on the enemy.

This gives a good way to give monks the ability to target will saves, in my opinion.

[Satyr]

I would creat a ctalogue of special attacks which are available for all martial characcters, like called shots, attacks against weak points in the armor, diverse painful and/or crippling strikes, etc.

Most of them would be available without special feats, and have a certain penalty to the attack roll. When the attack hits, the damage is done, and the
effect comes into play.
In comparison to spells, these attacks are less effective, but since they are basically usable at will, that si not that problematic.

Most of these effects are based on Fortitude savesand perhaps harder to acheive than the spell equivalent, but once they hit, they are very long term effects - if you cut your opponent's sinews, he won't be runnning fo a long time, perhaps even for ever.

The access of these additional attacks should be bound to the BAB, so that theoretically every warrior has acces to those attacks and the high power attacks can be vicious (which means 4th or 5th level spells).

The monk gains special bonus to all these special attacks, making sure thathe is better than the average axeswinger or fencer with it. And gains a small catalogue of own 'acupuncture' attacks, that partially or completely paralyse the victim, make spellcasting etc. impossible or just remorsesely kill the victim ("I poke my index finger through your eye directly into your brain causing permanent damage to your frontal lobes. Congratulations, you are now a vegetable. A one eyed vegetable.")

[XiaoTie]

I think crippling enemies and their attack rolls, AC, and perhaps Saves would indeed be, not only a very cool idea, but it would also represent quite well some martial arts.

The monk could choose maybe two or three paths on how he would do the crippling. As in he could select between either Attack Roll/BAB or AC, with the possibility of using attacks to cripple one or two of the three Saves like mentioned before here. The penalties would escalate as the monk gains levels. Crippling movement would also be very nice.

[Heliomance]

You're already dead.

[Satyr]

The odd thing is, there are so many rules for injuries, penalties for pain, fear and similar causes, but no real way to activate them without magic. Apparently, D&D characters are unable to feel pain when no magic is involved. There are many forms of damage you can inflict with pure physical violence, but they are not possible without a spell, because someone thought that mundane characters must be unable to compete under all costs.
This is not a specific monk problem, but here it becomes most obvious.

[Zeful]

I've wonder if giving the monk an second attack at level one would be unbalancing? I mean like +1/+1 or +0/+0 on the bab chart. With full bab or 3/4 bab you'd get +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 or +15/+15/+10/+5. Someone who's supposed to use their body like a weapon should have more attacks with it.

[Ziegander]

You mean like Flurry of Blows...?

[Zeful]

You mean like Flurry of Blows...?

No you'd rewrite flurry of blows to allow for full attacks to be made after a move action. The class chart would look like this:
{table]level|Base attack bonus
1|
+1/+1
2|
+2/+2
3|
+3/+3
4|
+4/+4
5|
+5/+5
6|
+6/+6/+1
...|
...
20|
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5[/table]

[Ziegander]

Oh. Well why didntcha say so?! :smallbiggrin:

Seems fine to me, although maybe not with full BAB. That would be a unique ability though, and one that would be nice to have.

[Zeful]

It'd have to be level 3 or later, no one level dipping in monk for fighters.

[Eighth_Seraph]

While I may be just a tad biased; I'm under the impression that the basic system I used for my monk re-make went off rather well. Essentially, a "skeleton" class that has the basics for a combat-oriented fighter (Full BAB, Fort and Reflex saves, etc.) then a bunch of sub-classes of "styles" to represent the myriad of different martial arts in the world. It's in my link if you want to use anything.

Your main obstacle, Fax, is deciding on your vision of the Monk. Is it a spiritually enlightened warrior? An acrobatic fighter? a realistic martial artist? If so, what kind? Are his powers a result of physical training or intense focus?

Hopefully that doesn't come across as too arrogant, but I'm interested to see which direction this monk redux will take, given the success of your previous works; particularly the HiSb Paladin.

[Talanic]

This seems to me like allowing monks to do called shots, which should depend more on the target's vulnerabilities than on the monk's abilities--and most of them are obvious as far as what they'd do. And they're either too powerful or not powerful enough in comparison.

Things I'd think would be good, though...

If they don't go to full BAB, they need lots of attacks to try to make up. How about the ability to make unarmed attacks and attacks with a weapon, both in the same round at full BAB progression?

Meaning that a level 10 monk with a quarterstaff would make the following full attack: 7/7/2 at 1d10 and 7/2 at 1d6.

Also, mobility's an issue--if your how-it-should-be monk keeps movement bonus, how about they retain the ability to make a full attack as long as they have 30' of movement left that round? Or look up my post on Scaling Enchantments in this board--I had an enchantment in there that was there for the purpose of helping with mobility.

Out of combat, how about a Meditation ability? By focusing on a task, a monk can overcome their physical and mental limitations. Immediately before performing a skill or ability check that allows taking 20, the monk can choose to meditate for one minute per level beforehand. For every minute the monk meditates, the ability score tied to the check is increased by one for the purpose of only that check. The augment only persists for one minute prior to starting the attempt; if the monk does not begin the attempt then, the meditation is wasted. If the monk does begin the attempt within the allotted time, the augment lasts until the attempt is complete.

[Prometheus]

A monk seems to be someone who should be more of a long-term fighter than a shorter term one. So in addition to debuffs, maybe also damage-over-time or attacks that increase in intensity each round. People might still consider them underpowered for regular fights, but be glad to have them when there is a boss to be taken down.

[Zeful]

This seems to me like allowing monks to do called shots, which should depend more on the target's vulnerabilities than on the monk's abilities--and most of them are obvious as far as what they'd do. And they're either too powerful or not powerful enough in comparison.
I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about my idea or something else?


Things I'd think would be good, though...

If they don't go to full BAB, they need lots of attacks to try to make up. How about the ability to make unarmed attacks and attacks with a weapon, both in the same round at full BAB progression? In other words make his unarmed strikes act as natural weapons?


Meaning that a level 10 monk with a quarterstaff would make the following full attack: 7/7/2 at 1d10 and 7/2 at 1d6. Actually it would be 7/7/2/3 because your natural weapon would be secondary, meaning you get one attack with it (I think).


Also, mobility's an issue--if your how-it-should-be monk keeps movement bonus, how about they retain the ability to make a full attack as long as they have 30' of movement left that round? Or look up my post on Scaling Enchantments in this board--I had an enchantment in there that was there for the purpose of helping with mobility. Which is why their flurry ability should should make full-attacks standard actions instead of full round actions.


Out of combat, how about a Meditation ability? By focusing on a task, a monk can overcome their physical and mental limitations. Immediately before performing a skill or ability check that allows taking 20, the monk can choose to meditate for one minute per level beforehand. For every minute the monk meditates, the ability score tied to the check is increased by one for the purpose of only that check. The augment only persists for one minute prior to starting the attempt; if the monk does not begin the attempt then, the meditation is wasted. If the monk does begin the attempt within the allotted time, the augment lasts until the attempt is complete. I'd make this ability more like the rouge skill mastery, can take 10 (or 15 or 20) on one check within 1 round per level of meditating. You choose two skills at, say fifth level, and get one every three of four levels thereafter. It only applies to those skills.

[Talanic]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about my idea or something else?


No, the earlier ones, from Drakeblood especially.




In other words make his unarmed strikes act as natural weapons?


Not really. Natural weapons don't get iterative attacks; what I meant was iterative attacks from BOTH unarmed AND armed at the same time. So an unarmed monk is dangerous, but an armed monk is even MORE dangerous.



Actually it would be 7/7/2/3 because your natural weapon would be secondary, meaning you get one attack with it (I think).


Not sure how you got this, but we're thinking about it in different ways. The double 7 was from flurry, the 2 is iterative from BAB, and the three...?



Which is why their flurry ability should should make full-attacks standard actions instead of full round actions.


Generally judged to be too powerful, as nobody else in the game gets this. Some get the ability to do a full attack as part of a charge, but that applies its own limitations and leaves them vulnerable to counters.



I'd make this ability more like the rouge skill mastery, can take 10 (or 15 or 20) on one check within 1 round per level of meditating. You choose two skills at, say fifth level, and get one every three of four levels thereafter. It only applies to those skills.

We're thinking of it differently, again. I'm thinking of the meditation as a way for the monk to attune themselves to the task at hand, focusing their body on the BEST way to do something. Not meditating on the lock to know the way of the lock, meditating on yourself to be more nimble. Also, meditation would (IMO) be better suited to making a task take longer but be performed very well, rather than meditate for a few seconds to do a task okay.

[Ivius]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54206&highlight=Monk

I tried a monk rewrite a while ago that might be useful.

[Zeful]

Not really. Natural weapons don't get iterative attacks; what I meant was iterative attacks from BOTH unarmed AND armed at the same time. So an unarmed monk is dangerous, but an armed monk is even MORE dangerous. But then that invalidate unarmed, if you get both a weapon iteration and a unarmed iteration.


Not sure how you got this, but we're thinking about it in different ways. The double 7 was from flurry, the 2 is iterative from BAB, and the three...? The three would have been a seven but natural attacks take a -4 penalty when used with manufactured weapons.


Generally judged to be too powerful, as nobody else in the game gets this. Some get the ability to do a full attack as part of a charge, but that applies its own limitations and leaves them vulnerable to counters.
Too powerful? Compared to a fighter yes. Wizard? Not a chance. So what that no other class or monster gets it? Real martial artists can do much the same thing (moving in, launching three to five blows and moving out of reach before the enemy can move back).


We're thinking of it differently, again. I'm thinking of the meditation as a way for the monk to attune themselves to the task at hand, focusing their body on the BEST way to do something. Not meditating on the lock to know the way of the lock, meditating on yourself to be more nimble. Also, meditation would (IMO) be better suited to making a task take longer but be performed very well, rather than meditate for a few seconds to do a task okay.

Then meditation would be better to give a bonus to a stat for a couple of rounds. But taking 20 when they otherwise wouldn't be able to? Dip factotum, grab able learner an say hello to perfect skillmonkey. Some meditation ability like the psionic focus would be interesting and well suited to the class. But what your proposing kinda defeats the purpose of other skill monkeys.
Actually a statboost through meditation makes more sense, they are more a combat class rather than skill monkey. Being more agile (or whatever) does help much of the skills, especially the ones meditation would help.

[Talanic]

But then that invalidate unarmed, if you get both a weapon iteration and a unarmed iteration.


How so? Unarmed is currently already invalidated. Sure, it hits hard at high levels, but not harder than enchanted weapons with multiple elemental damage types applied. Why would a monk NOT use a weapon at high levels?



The three would have been a seven but natural attacks take a -4 penalty when used with manufactured weapons.


Ah. Again, we were looking at it differently.



Too powerful? Compared to a fighter yes. Wizard? Not a chance. So what that no other class or monster gets it? Real martial artists can do much the same thing (moving in, launching three to five blows and moving out of reach before the enemy can move back).


That'd be spring attack using a full attack as a standard action. Anyway, I think we're really in agreement over the fact that monks (and all fighters really) need to be able to move and attack, we're just not completely agreeing on methods. By you, a monk could move 90' and full attack in the same round at level 20; by me, the same monk could move 60' and full attack in the same round, or 90' and do only a single attack.



Then meditation would be better to give a bonus to a stat for a couple of rounds. But taking 20 when they otherwise wouldn't be able to? Dip factotum, grab able learner an say hello to perfect skillmonkey. Some meditation ability like the psionic focus would be interesting and well suited to the class. But what your proposing kinda defeats the purpose of other skill monkeys.


I don't think it defeats the purpose of other skillmonkeys. At level 10, a monk could meditate for 10 minutes for a total bonus of +5 (+ regular ability modifier) to a check--equaling the trained modifier of a level two skillmonkey. Plus it takes a lot of time--and if the DM always gives the players enough time to do this every time they need to make a check--and can't be done with every skill.

My way there would need more refinement, though. As-is, it wouldn't work for breaking bricks, or making a jump check, or many other athletic feats that monks really should be able to augment through meditation.



Actually a statboost through meditation makes more sense, they are more a combat class rather than skill monkey. Being more agile (or whatever) does help much of the skills, especially the ones meditation would help.

I'm not averse to the idea that it would boost stats for a while, but in that case it would need to be toned down significantly from what I wrote. A +20 to strength in a fight? Scary.

[Zeful]

How so? Unarmed is currently already invalidated. Sure, it hits hard at high levels, but not harder than enchanted weapons with multiple elemental damage types applied. Why would a monk NOT use a weapon at high levels?
Part of the core design of a monk is a pugilist. A guy who beats the tar out of people with his fists. The weapons seemed tacked on to provide options. I'm not going to say that weapons shouldn't be included, but an unarmed monk should be just as valid as one with a weapon.

That'd be spring attack using a full attack as a standard action. Anyway, I think we're really in agreement over the fact that monks (and all fighters really) need to be able to move and attack, we're just not completely agreeing on methods. By you, a monk could move 90' and full attack in the same round at level 20; by me, the same monk could move 60' and full attack in the same round, or 90' and do only a single attack.
You could include a class feature that reads something like: "When making a full attack, a monk may instead move 15' instead of a 5-foot step. This increases by five feet every three levels." That should be a workable compromise.

I don't think it defeats the purpose of other skillmonkeys. At level 10, a monk could meditate for 10 minutes for a total bonus of +5 (+ regular ability modifier) to a check--equaling the trained modifier of a level two skillmonkey. Plus it takes a lot of time--and if the DM always gives the players enough time to do this every time they need to make a check--and can't be done with every skill.

My way there would need more refinement, though. As-is, it wouldn't work for breaking bricks, or making a jump check, or many other athletic feats that monks really should be able to augment through meditation.

I'm not averse to the idea that it would boost stats for a while, but in that case it would need to be toned down significantly from what I wrote. A +20 to strength in a fight? Scary.

Stat boosts fit better, what with the perfection of the body thing. Though making it the initial ability that gives a +1 insight bonus per every three monk level to one stat for ten minutes would be pretty good. Then make the monk capstone make it a +20 and jump it to an hour. You'd have a character that could easily portay Samson or Hercules strength-wise. After all the monk is almost Epic, he should get something so you want to stay in the class all 20 levels.

[Human Paragon 3]

Just a thought-

The monk should be a martial weapon master, not just a master of unarmed combat, able to cherrypick the right weapon for the right occasion like Person Man's Haberdashery The Masked. One problem I have with the PHB monk is that he is encouraged to used unarmed strikes and ONLY unarmed strikes, especially as his abilities progress.

I think the monk should be an accomplished unarmed fighter, but should only use that method when it suits him best, i.e. in places where weapons are not allowed, when an unarmed attack would be unexpected, to complement his weapon attacks, when he doesn't want to deal lethal damage, etc. One of the cool things about kung-fu heroes, I think, is their armory. At the very least, I think you should be able to deliver special attacks (like stunning fist and whatever else you give this guy) via their weapons.

[Zeful]

Just a thought-

The monk should be a martial weapon master, not just a master of unarmed combat, able to cherrypick the right weapon for the right occasion like Person Man's Haberdashery The Masked. One problem I have with the PHB monk is that he is encouraged to used unarmed strikes and ONLY unarmed strikes, especially as his abilities progress. I agree, I just want an unarmed monk to be as valid (i.e. just as likely to contribute meaningfully in his given role (whatever that is)) as an armed monk. Giving to many boneses to armed or unarmed causes perception problems. If to much emphasis is placed on armed combat, then people are upset because they can't play a pugilist. To much focus on unarmed, and you upset the people who want to play a Shaolin monk. I feel that a balance can be struck, but have no idea how to go about it.


I think the monk should be an accomplished unarmed fighter, but should only use that method when it suits him best, i.e. in places where weapons are not allowed, when an unarmed attack would be unexpected, to complement his weapon attacks, when he doesn't want to deal lethal damage, etc. One of the cool things about kung-fu heroes, I think, is their armory. At the very least, I think you should be able to deliver special attacks (like stunning fist and whatever else you give this guy) via their weapons.

Overall I agree. But I think stuff like stunning fist should stay with the unarmed portion of the monk. You could make up some weapon only status effects for the monk, but there should be, in my opinion, a clear distinction between his "armed" and "unarmed" capabilities.

[Kellus]

I think the moral of this thread is that nobody can agree what a monk should be.

[Zeta Kai]

I think the moral of this thread is that nobody can agree what a monk should be.

That's the only thing we can agree on. :smallamused:

[Talanic]

That's the only thing we can agree on. :smallamused:

WRONG!


...had to be done....

Hmm. How about, instead of the 'two full attacks, one armed and one not', instead make monks start to gain more actions later on--after all, wizards get Time Stop at level 9, how about a pool of action that a monk can draw on?

Writeup:
A monk's maximum Ki points is equal to his level. Ki points can be spent in combat to activate extraordinary abilities, and can be retrieved by meditation at a rate that increases based on the monk's level. Unless otherwise specified, each ability can be used only once per round.

A level 2 monk can expend two Ki points to reroll an initiative roll. At level seven, the cost of this ability decreases to one Ki point.

A level 5 monk can expend five Ki points to gain an extra move action in combat. The cost of this ability decreases by one point at levels nine and fourteen. At level seventeen, this ability can be used twice per round.

A level 9 monk can expend three Ki points to reroll a save. Declare the use of this after the save is rolled but before the effects of the failed save are applied. The results of the reroll must be taken, even if worse than the original. At level fifteen, the cost of this ability decreases by one point. At level nineteen, this ability can be used twice per round, even on the same save attempt.

A level eleven monk can expend eight Ki points to gain an extra standard action in combat.

Now, all of that is just pulled out of nowhere with no concern for actual balance, but how's that sound? We'd also be able to define what meditation consists of, and what actions may or may not be taken. Feats could also factor into that equation.

[Prometheus]

I think the moral of this thread is that nobody can agree what a monk should be.
We need Fax_Celestis to settle the question once and for all show us how-it-should-be. He sets the standard, because his fixes actually stick. *patiently awaits for guidance from the divine patron of core classes*.

[Cybren]

Being unarmed should be a capable fallback of a monk but they shouldn't be less effective when using a weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

Being unarmed should be a capable fallback of a monk but they shouldn't be less effective when using a weapon.

This, specifically, has been addressed.