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Heliomance
2008-11-16, 04:05 PM
Where is it/how does it work? I can't find it.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:06 PM
Complete Adventurer- goes very well with power attack.

Heliomance
2008-11-16, 04:08 PM
Thank you!

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:12 PM
just checked- needs 8 ranks in Jump. and the Power Attack feat to take.

Must jump at least 10 feet to trigger effect- doubles your Power Attack Extra Damage (triples it if weapon is two-handed)

Talic
2008-11-16, 04:19 PM
Incorrect, slightly. Errata is that it increases power attack damage by 100%. This means that it is not a doubling.

Thus, if you power attack for 5 with a longsword, and get 1 for 1, you get +5 damage. Leap attack raises that to +10.

If you power attack for 5 with a greatsword, and get 1 for 2, you get +10 damage. Leap attack raises that to +20.

Yes, it's one of the few exceptions.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:24 PM
haven't checked errata recently- so they cut the tripling effect for two-handed weapons?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:36 PM
haven't checked errata recently- so they cut the tripling effect for two-handed weapons?

Previously it had changed modifier, now it straight up adds damage equal to damage done. It now does more damage for two handed Power attackers then it did before errata.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 04:36 PM
They took a leap into the Abyss....


Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.

This does not change the 3rd sentence, which talks about tripling for two-handed weapons.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:39 PM
pre errata- greatsword- 5pt of Power attack- 10 pts of Power attack Damage- upgrade to 30 pts with Leap attack.

whats it do now?

Matthew
2008-11-16, 04:44 PM
The errata was released in 2005. Here's the original text:



Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.


Here is the revised text with errata incorporated:



Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.

The errata actually made the whole thing less clear. :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2008-11-16, 04:45 PM
They took a leap into the Abyss....



This does not change the 3rd sentence, which talks about tripling for two-handed weapons.

So you deal +100% damage, AND you triple it, instead of double? So now, Power attack for 5 = 15 damage (tripled), then +100% = +30 damage?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:46 PM
pre errata- greatsword- 5pt of Power attack- 10 pts of Power attack Damage- upgrade to 30 pts with Leap attack.

whats it do now?

No it didn't. It did x3 damage instead of x2. So you would do 15 damage from your 5 point Power attack. Using the 100% rule it does 20 damage.

Matthew
2008-11-16, 04:51 PM
So you deal +100% damage, AND you triple it, instead of double? So now, Power attack for 5 = 15 damage (tripled), then +100% = +30 damage?

No, but you could read it to triple the normal doubled damage.

+5 doubled (two handed) = +10, then tripled = +30



No it didn't. It did x3 damage instead of x2. So you would do 15 damage from your 5 point Power attack. Using the 100% rule it does 20 damage.

More than likely, the first reading is the intended one in both cases.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 04:53 PM
So you deal +100% damage, AND you triple it, instead of double? So now, Power attack for 5 = 15 damage (tripled), then +100% = +30 damage?

Nono, if you do not use a two-handed weapon you gain 100 % PA damage.
If you do use a two-handed weapon you triple the PA damage.

There is no 100%'ing the triple. The triple rules replace the 100 % clause.

Hopefully, this is an oversight.....

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:55 PM
More than likely, the first reading is the intended one in both cases.

Not really. According to the WotC people the errata was for the sole purpose of giving "everyone the same advantage of the feat" by upgrading the damage done by two handers.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 04:55 PM
No, but you could read it to triple the normal doubled damage.

+5 doubled (two handed) = +10, then tripled = +30

Now is not this typical! Matthew finds the most broken interpretation to run with.

Powermonger!

:smalltongue:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 04:56 PM
Not really. According to the WotC people the errata was for the sole purpose of giving "everyone the same advantage of the feat" by upgrading the damage done by two handers.

If that is the case it would have been helpful if they had actually written the errata to support that. :smallamused:

Starbuck_II
2008-11-16, 05:00 PM
If that is the case it would have been helpful if they had actually written the errata to support that. :smallamused:

But then instead of saying:



Originally Posted by Complete Adventurer - Errata
Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.


They would have to rewrite the entire feat description to make it more clear. And WotC is not that unlazy.

Matthew
2008-11-16, 05:04 PM
Not really. According to the WotC people the errata was for the sole purpose of giving "everyone the same advantage of the feat" by upgrading the damage done by two handers.

I wouldn't trust the WotC people as far as I could throw them, let alone their internet mouth pieces... :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I can imagine that being the case. After all two handed weapons are totally weak in D20/3e and need all the help they can get, especially compared to characters that fight with two weapons.



Now is not this typical! Matthew finds the most broken interpretation to run with.

Powermonger!

:smalltongue:

Watch out for my Monkey Gripped Mecurial Full Blade wielding Half Giant (who I assume has Powerful Build as a Racial Feature, I forget)! Now I just need to figure out how to get him some extra arms and use the rules in Savage Species to seal the deal! :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-11-16, 05:07 PM
For balance purposes I would make Leap Attack only add a 3:1 PA bonus, even though RAW would put it at 4:1

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 05:08 PM
But then instead of saying:



They would have to rewrite the entire feat description to make it more clear. And WotC is not that unlazy.

Yes, they would have to add a line saying:
Delete the third sentence:

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

That is clearly too much to expect. :smallsigh:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't trust the WotC people as far as I could throw them, let alone their internet mouth pieces... :smallbiggrin:


I hope this is not the Half-Giant with the Throw Anything feat talking. :smallamused:



Seriously, though, I can imagine that being the case. After all two handed weapons are totally weak in D20/3e and need all the help they can get, especially compared to characters that fight with two weapons.


See more 100 % errata for the Frenzied Beserker.
This should prove that everything is okydoky superduper A-OK etc.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:14 PM
I'm not saying that WotC is intelligent or capable or anything. I'm just saying that supposedly they took pity on the poor THW fighters getting only 3 damage per point and instead gave them four.

Of course, it could be they were trying to correct the misconception that the x3 was on top of the usual x2 at the same time.

And I think you are looking at it wrong, They clearly want THW fighting to be stronger then all other types, So it makes perfect sense that they would make it better. It's when they accidentally create balance of some kind that we should question if that is their actual intent.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:15 PM
the phrasing was something along lines of "whatever power attack damage is, double it" or, for two handed, triple it"

Though I suspect errata fixed it. But as I said- we're not looking at number of points of power attack, but amount of power attack damage.

Matthew
2008-11-16, 05:26 PM
I hope this is not the Half-Giant with the Throw Anything feat talking. :smallamused:

I think I ran out of feats...



See more 100 % errata for the Frenzied Beserker.
This should prove that everything is okydoky superduper A-OK etc.

Did I mention my Half Giant has levels in Lion Totem Barbarian and is seeking to enter the Frenzied Berserker prestige class?



I'm not saying that WotC is intelligent or capable or anything. I'm just saying that supposedly they took pity on the poor THW fighters getting only 3 damage per point and instead gave them four.

Of course, it could be they were trying to correct the misconception that the x3 was on top of the usual x2 at the same time.

And I think you are looking at it wrong, They clearly want THW fighting to be stronger then all other types, So it makes perfect sense that they would make it better. It's when they accidentally create balance of some kind that we should question if that is their actual intent.

It is not really that, it is more a case of a perception that the "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". WotC does not seem to have a stable handle on how they want the game to work, and given the number of people involved it is not really too surprising.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:30 PM
yes, the phrase "the extra damage dealt by your use of the power attack feat" left a little too much leeway for the more powerful interpretation.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-16, 06:10 PM
Did I mention my Half Giant has levels in Lion Totem Barbarian and is seeking to enter the Frenzied Berserker prestige class?

It goes without saying. :smallamused:

monty
2008-11-16, 06:12 PM
Don't forget Shock Trooper! No barbarian is complete without negative AC.

Talic
2008-11-16, 06:14 PM
Combat Brute? Because no attack is complete without doing 150 damage to both you AND your sword?

Oh, and 2 levels of ronin! Banzai Charge FTW!

Frosty
2008-11-16, 06:15 PM
Don't forget Shock Trooper! No barbarian is complete without negative AC.

I'm ok with a 4:1 ratio if Shock Trooper wasn't in play.

monty
2008-11-16, 06:16 PM
I'm ok with a 4:1 ratio if Shock Trooper wasn't in play.

What? You don't like adding an extra bunch of damage to every hit while retaining your full attack bonus? What's wrong with that?

Frosty
2008-11-16, 06:45 PM
What? You don't like adding an extra bunch of damage to every hit while retaining your full attack bonus? What's wrong with that?

Making the fights too deadly and too much about which side can land an uber charge first :smalltongue: My players certainly almost fainted when I used a half-orc Leap Attack Shock-trooper against them. Knocked out one character, and proceded to use Improved Trip and Mage Slayer and Thick of Blades to keep the rest busy while the cleric BBEG casted spells in safety.

Lycar
2008-11-17, 06:27 PM
Don't forget Shock Trooper! No barbarian is complete without negative AC.

Oh right, that reminds me: How do Leap Attack and Power Attack work together?

As I see it, both feats/abilities allow you to use your BAB as a resource. You can reduce your attack roll by an amount UP TO your BAB to boost damage, or you can lower your AC by an amount UP TO your BAB to boost damage (minimum 5 though).

(So it is unlikely for a character to actually end up with a negative AC. I don't think I've ever seen a melee character with a AC below 20.)

But how do you rule using both feats? The description in the Heedless Charge ability states that you can shift some or all of the to-hit penalty from power attack to your AC. Also that you have to PA for at least 5 points.

However, I do seem to recall that some people boasting abpout how much damage an ‹bercharger can do, seem to first dump their full BAB and then, on top of that, their full AC into damage. :smallconfused:

Actually, if you have a BAB of 20, that is as much as you can possibly pump into your PA, for a maximum bonus damage of 20/40/60/80 for 1h, 2h or 1h + Leap Attack, 2h+ LA +1 variant, 2h + LA x2 variant.

BAB 16 builds are therefore limited in what they get out of PA and LA.

Or does any of you out there allow people to stack to-hit and AC penalties on damage in a charger build? :smallconfused:

Lycar

monty
2008-11-17, 06:32 PM
Oh right, that reminds me: How do Leap Attack and Power Attack work together?

You mean Shock Trooper and Power Attack?

Basically, it works like normal Power Attack at first. Pick a number between 1 and your BAB, and add it (or some multiple of it) to your damage roll. However, Shock Trooper makes the penalty apply to your AC instead of your AB.

For example (all numbers pulled directly from where the stick would be if I were a paladin):
BAB +8, total AB +15
AC 20
With normal Power Attack, you could add up to 8 (or a multiple thereof) to damage. In that case, your AB would be +7, but your AC would still be 20.
If you use Shock Trooper, you could add up to 8 (or a multiple thereof) to damage. In that case, your AB would still be +15, but your AC would be 12.

Shock Trooper lets you penalize your AC instead of your AB, not in addition to.

Lycar
2008-11-18, 02:42 PM
Yes, that's the way I see it.

It is just that I don't quite see how the obscene amounts of damage some builds are allegedly capable of inflicting are being computed then. :smallconfused:

Lycar

monty
2008-11-18, 02:47 PM
Yes, that's the way I see it.

It is just that I don't quite see how the obscene amounts of damage some builds are allegedly capable of inflicting are being computed then. :smallconfused:

Lycar

They get a lot of damage from Pounce, which lets them make all their attacks at the end of a charge. Then stack Leap Attack and some other feats and abilites for a really big Power Attack multiplier, and use Shock Trooper to keep full AB.

Person_Man
2008-11-18, 03:17 PM
Essentially, the feat changes Power Attack to [+2 damage/-1 to hit] for one handed weapons, or [+4 damage/-1 to hit] for two handed weapons, and it can only be used when you Charge and Jump (so that it can't be combined with a mounted charge, and it can't be combined with a full attack without Pounce).

Though as Frosty and others suggest, many DMs put it at 3:1 (as it was originally intended to be) for two handed weapons, especially when combined with Pounce and/or Shock Trooper and/or Battle Jump and/or Headlong Rush and/or ad naseum.

How your DM decides to adjudicate it really depends on the casters in your party. If they go Batman on you, then a Warblade with 4:1 ratio Leap Attack, Pounce, and Shock Trooper will be completely necessary to keep pace with Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Summon Monster X, etc. Otherwise, it's clearly a bit excessive.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-18, 03:20 PM
Theoretical question: does anyone see a problem with allowing Leap Attack and/or Shock Trooper to power/augment the Stone Power feat from Tome of Battle?

Matthew
2008-11-18, 03:43 PM
Theoretical question: does anyone see a problem with allowing Leap Attack and/or Shock Trooper to power/augment the Stone Power feat from Tome of Battle?

So that you gain multiples of the base temporary hit points and put the penalties into your armour class? I suppose not, though I find it a bit weird conceptually. I wouldn't allow two handed weapons to modify the multiple, though.

Say...

−5 BAB/+0 AC/+10 THP (Temporary Hit Points) via Stone Power
...which would become −5 BAB/+0 AC/+15 THP via Leap Attack
...which would become +0 BAB/−5 AC/+15 THP via Shock Trooper

or

−5 BAB/+0 AC/+10 THP (Temporary Hit Points) via Stone Power
...which would become −5 BAB/+0 AC/+20 THP via Leap Attack
...which would become +0 BAB/−5 AC/+20 THP via Shock Trooper

depending on how I chose to multiply the THP via Leap Attack

Fax Celestis
2008-11-18, 03:52 PM
So that you gain multiples of the base temporary hit points and put the penalties into your armour class? I suppose not, though I find it a bit weird conceptually. I wouldn't allow two handed weapons to modify the multiple, though.

Say...

−5 BAB/+0 AC/+10 THP (Temporary Hit Points) via Stone Power
...which would become −5 BAB/+0 AC/+15 THP via Leap Attack
...which would become +0 BAB/−5 AC/+15 THP via Shock Trooper

or

−5 BAB/+0 AC/+10 THP (Temporary Hit Points) via Stone Power
...which would become −5 BAB/+0 AC/+20 THP via Leap Attack
...which would become +0 BAB/−5 AC/+20 THP via Shock Trooper

depending on how I chose to multiply the THP via Leap Attack

Frankly, the only way I'd see it being generally effective would be against a high-hitting low-damage target like a swarm or a raycaster.

Person_Man
2008-11-18, 04:21 PM
Theoretical question: does anyone see a problem with allowing Leap Attack and/or Shock Trooper to power/augment the Stone Power feat from Tome of Battle?

I'm with Matthew on this, in that conceptually it doesn't work for me. But I like where you're trying to go with this.

How about something like:

Stone Body
Req: Stone Power
Once per round as a free action during your turn you may take a penalty to your Ref Save, up to an amount equal to your base Ref Save + your Dexterity bonus. You gain temporary hit points equal to the penalty you take. The penalty and temporary hit points last until the start of your next turn. You may stack these temporary hit points with the temporary hit points from Stone Power and/or Stone Mind (along with the associated penalties), but they do not stack with temporary hit points from other sources. You may not use the Evasion or Improved Evasion ability the same round that you use Stone Body.

Stone Mind
Req: Stone Power
Once per round as a free action during your turn you may take a penalty to your Will Save, up to an amount equal to your base Will Save + your Wisdom bonus. You gain temporary hit points equal to the penalty you take. The penalty and temporary hit points last until the start of your next turn. You may stack these temporary hit points with the temporary hit points from Stone Power and/or Stone Body (along with the associated penalties), but they do not stack with temporary hit points from other sources. You may not use the Mettle ability the same round that you use Stone Mind.

This would give you what you want - more temporary hit points - while giving you balancing penalties.

Matthew
2008-11-18, 04:24 PM
Frankly, the only way I'd see it being generally effective would be against a high-hitting low-damage target like a swarm or a raycaster.

I agree. I guess it would also be useful against creatures faster than you with limited numbers of "auto hits", like a dragon or sorcerer/wizard that spits out area effect weapons (figuring out what you were charging would be the munchkinny part, I guess :smallbiggrin:).