Does anyone else find it unfair that Crystal gets free levels?

[paladinofshojo]

Seriously, she is most likely one of the stupidest NPCs out there and yet she gets a level each time Haley earned one through hard work........Kind of unfair if you ask me

[RMS Oceanic]

Yeah it is, but it's a standard storytelling/role playing trick: recurring villains will almost always pose roughly the same threat to the hero, so when the hero upgrades, so does the rival.

[Assassin89]

More like unfair to Crystal. without any battle experience, Crystal may prove to not be as big a threat after all. Without hard work, Crystal cannot assess her strengths and weaknesses.

[[TS] Shadow]

I found the scene where Crystal gains a level during poker very funny...

On topic, however, what kind of confrontation would it be if there was no challenge? Think about it this way: Bowser sits in a castle all day waiting for Mario to show up. What kind of a boss fight would it be if Mario could just flick him off the screen? In a real D&D campaign, rivals are close in level so that the encounter is both difficult and satisfying.

Besides, the fact that Crystal is about as smart as a table doesn't help her cause...

[Warlord JK]

It's just a common literary and fantasy tool to always have your rival be roughly on par with your abilities. Generally the rival will have been doing stuff in literature though to earn those abilities, but Giant is just making fun of the idea with this.

[Zeta Kai]

It's a joke.
It's a thematically-appropriate dramatic device.
It's a useful way to make her a threat to a lifelong adventurer.
Intelligence has no bearing on one's ability to gain levels.

[Kish]

Whatever does fair have to do with it? :smalltongue: Seriously, you want to talk about fair, might I suggest that "Xykon is an evil bastard but he's the highest-level character in the strip" would be a better place to start?

[evileeyore]

Seriously, she is most likely one of the stupidest NPCs out there and yet she gets a level each time Haley earned one through hard work........Kind of unfair if you ask me


Just close your eyes and repeat three times: "It was for comedy"

[Warlord JK]

Just close your eyes and repeat three times: "It was for comedy"

We have a winner!!! Yes, it was making fun of a literary/fantasy device used in numerous books/games in today's culture.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Whatever does fair have to do with it? :smalltongue: Seriously, you want to talk about fair, might I suggest that "Xykon is an evil bastard but he's the highest-level character in the strip" would be a better place to start?

Or you could start with the fact that the weaker Order was able to beat a more powerful and more experienced Xykon based on the sheer fact that they were the protagonists. Much more unfair in my opinion. :smalltongue:

[Warlord JK]

Or you could start with the fact that the weaker Order was able to beat a more powerful and more experienced Xykon based on the sheer fact that they were the protagonists. Much more unfair in my opinion. :smalltongue:

Actually, it was more an instance of an extraordinary feat by Roy of grabbing Xykon and hurling him into a huge gate that blew his body to bits. My DM sometimes lets us do this, he calls it a Heroic Act which we can do after we do something amazing, like get 3 crits in a row or roll the highest you can get on a Disintegrate, etc.

[whitelaughter]

She's an antagonist. "Get free levels until the PC gets around to carving out your kidneys" is a devil's deal; which is probably why only stupid NPCs (such as Crystal) sign up.

[Lamech]

She's an antagonist. "Get free levels until the PC gets around to carving out your kidneys" is a devil's deal; which is probably why only stupid NPCs (such as Crystal) sign up.
See Crystal's doing it wrong; she is just going to get killed. What you should do after signing up for this deal, is go out adventuring and get six or seven levels. Then when your rival comes back you have however many levels you where ahead at the start, plus those levels you gained on the PC. Then you can just splat the whole party. Then you become personal rivals with one of their low level siblings. :smalltongue:

[Scion_of_Darkness]

You know lamech, I like the way you think.

[Warlord JK]

See Crystal's doing it wrong; she is just going to get killed. What you should do after signing up for this deal, is go out adventuring and get six or seven levels. Then when your rival comes back you have however many levels you where ahead at the start, plus those levels you gained on the PC. Then you can just splat the whole party. Then you become personal rivals with one of their low level siblings. :smalltongue:

We have a winner for the Best Theory Award :smallbiggrin:. I laughed.

[MReav]

We have a winner for the Best Theory Award :smallbiggrin:. I laughed.

Except that she has to remain an appropriate level challenge for Haley. That means she could sit around doing nothing and gain levels, but if she ground herself stupid, she couldn't gain much more than Haley's level, making it a huge waste of resources on her part.

[Warlord JK]

Except that she has to remain an appropriate level challenge for Haley. That means she could sit around doing nothing and gain levels, but if she ground herself stupid, she couldn't gain much more than Haley's level, making it a huge waste of resources on her part.

It was a joke. Nothing more.

[Prowl]

Just close your eyes and repeat three times: "It was for comedy"

Honestly, they need to make that a sticky at the top of the forum, there has been such an epidemic of insistence on strict adherence to published rules and absolute consistency that I think many have forgotten what the word 'comic' in 'comic strip' is supposed to signify.

All the rules lawyering reminds me of that old saying that explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog; you understand much more about it afterwards, but it dies in the process.

[Corwin Weber]

Seriously, she is most likely one of the stupidest NPCs out there and yet she gets a level each time Haley earned one through hard work........Kind of unfair if you ask me

I had sort of been under the impression that.... this was more or less the entire point of the joke.

[An Enemy Spy]

See Crystal's doing it wrong; she is just going to get killed. What you should do after signing up for this deal, is go out adventuring and get six or seven levels. Then when your rival comes back you have however many levels you where ahead at the start, plus those levels you gained on the PC. Then you can just splat the whole party. Then you become personal rivals with one of their low level siblings. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't work. Haley would just gain a level every time Crystal leveled up.

[chiasaur11]

The solution is to become a rival in an area that doesn't involve killing each other, but does require leveling up. That way, you won't get killed, and you can level twice as fast. At minimum.

[Optimystik]

Wouldn't work. Haley would just gain a level every time Crystal leveled up.

Up to Roy's cap, that is: the party leader is also the highest-levelled member. Otherwise she'd be the one going toe-to-toe with Xykon.

In other words, the end result would be the same regardless of any grinding involved - on both sides!

[Warlord JK]

Up to Roy's cap, that is: the party leader is also the highest-levelled member. Otherwise she'd be the one going toe-to-toe with Xykon.

In other words, the end result would be the same regardless of any grinding involved - on both sides!

I'm confused. So Crystal could get all the way to Roy's level, but would not be able to level any higher because Haley couldn't ding with her?

[Optimystik]

I'm confused. So Crystal could get all the way to Roy's level, but would not be able to level any higher because Haley couldn't ding with her?

In effect. Haley can at best equal Roy, and Crystal can at best equal Haley. Therefore at best, Crystal's level = Roy's.

There's also the second theory, that the rival can surpass the hero briefly until the hero has an epiphany of some kind. For example, Nale was stronger than Elan until Elan picked up his prestige class. This would allow Crystal to surpass Haley until Haley realizes some inner truth. Even then, I doubt Crystal would surpass Roy, as that would put her right behind Redcloak in the villain heirarchy (the mere thought makes my skin crawl...)

EDIT: Then again, the MitD could also be right behind Redcloak and he isn't much smarter than she is, so how bad could it be?

[Ramien]

Well, the thing to remember about Crystal is that, if she got any advice at all, she could have used her 'free' levels to skip past the 'sucky' levels needed to qualify for some broken prestige class or another. After all, if you don't need to adventure too much after making a sub-optimal choice for that level, it seems like a much more attractive option.

[Flame of Anor]

What you should do is go out adventuring and get six or seven levels. Then when your rival comes back you have however many levels you were ahead at the start, plus those levels you gained on the PC. Then you can just splat the whole party.


You know, Lamech, I like the way you think.

Sigged! :smallbiggrin:

[Evil DM Mark3]

More like unfair to Crystal. without any battle experience, Crystal may prove to not be as big a threat after all. Without hard work, Crystal cannot assess her strengths and weaknesses.

Pickle. Death. Attack.

[pjackson]

Honestly, they need to make that a sticky at the top of the forum, there has been such an epidemic of insistence on strict adherence to published rules and absolute consistency that I think many have forgotten what the word 'comic' in 'comic strip' is supposed to signify.

All the rules lawyering reminds me of that old saying that explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog; you understand much more about it afterwards, but it dies in the process.

I think you may not have noticed that rules lawyering is fun for some of us.
If you don't find it so that's OK, but please don't complain about our having fun.

The comic did start out with jokes about the rules and some of us have been reading since then.
In the beginning of OtOoPCs it says that the rules of D&D do govern the world of the comic.
There are still frequent references to the rules, and jokes that you won't get fully if you don't know the rules (such as the one about DR in this strip).

[raphfrk]

Up to Roy's cap, that is: the party leader is also the highest-levelled member.


Is that any actual rule in D&D? I could see it being a reasonable rule of thumb, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for it to be strictly enforced.

[Jan Mattys]

Is that any actual rule in D&D? I could see it being a reasonable rule of thumb, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for it to be strictly enforced.

I am pretty sure that Tanis Half-Elven (leader) would have his arse handed on a plate by Raistlin Majere...
:smallbiggrin:

[evileeyore]

Up to Roy's cap, that is: the party leader is also the highest-levelled member. Otherwise she'd be the one going toe-to-toe with Xykon.

Hmmm.

Look, I'll be blunt. That is one of the stupidest idea I have read in a while, and my day started off rereading Elan's greatest and worst moments....


There is no reason why Haley could not outlevel Roy. No rules in the game, no "rules" in the genre, no rules in literature. Nada.

[Optimystik]

Hmmm.

Look, I'll be blunt. That is one of the stupidest idea I have read in a while, and my day started off rereading Elan's greatest and worst moments....


There is no reason why Haley could not outlevel Roy. No rules in the game, no "rules" in the genre, no rules in literature. Nada.

Thanks for the input.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

This happens in "The Savage Tide" adventure path. One of the early villians is taken down by "Our Heroes," but later shows up level-upped by two-three levels, with nothing to show how she got there.

I thought it was kind of cheesy myself, but "Our Heroes" took her out quickly enough later on.

[King of Nowhere]

It is widely known that the villain always is a close match for the hero (sometimes even stronger), but in the end he always lose. So, no, it's not unfair that Crystal get free levels. No matter how much levels she get, she will lost in the end. What is really unfair is the power of deus ex machina.
I mean, Xykon had, like, 12 levels on Roy during their first fight (he already was epic, Roy at the time was 10-11), yet he lost. Nale had defeated the order and his plan worked perfectly, but we all know what happened. Elan needed to travel thousands of miles quickly, and he "casually" founded a friendly airship captain. V was totally going to have hir ass kicked by the dead knight.
The villains get free XP, but they have to work hard for every battle. The PC will stumble on the battlefield and do something stupid, something improbable will happen and save them.
THAT is unfair.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It is widely known that the villain always is a close match for the hero (sometimes even stronger), but in the end he always lose. So, no, it's not unfair that Crystal get free levels. No matter how much levels she get, she will lost in the end. What is really unfair is the power of deus ex machina.
I mean, Xykon had, like, 12 levels on Roy during their first fight (he already was epic, Roy at the time was 10-11), yet he lost. Nale had defeated the order and his plan worked perfectly, but we all know what happened. Elan needed to travel thousands of miles quickly, and he "casually" founded a friendly airship captain. V was totally going to have hir ass kicked by the dead knight.
The villains get free XP, but they have to work hard for every battle. The PC will stumble on the battlefield and do something stupid, something improbable will happen and save them.
THAT is unfair.Roy's Grapple Mod was obviously better than Xykons(same BAB, 2x Str, may have the feat) so the throw isn't unusual. Him getting that close, though...lets just say that if Xykon had been a Wizard with a decent Int, it never would have happened. Nale's plans are perfectly indicative of high Int, low Wis. Not likely to do well.

[Spiky]

Hmmm.

Look, I'll be blunt. That is one of the stupidest idea I have read in a while, and my day started off rereading Elan's greatest and worst moments....


There is no reason why Haley could not outlevel Roy. No rules in the game, no "rules" in the genre, no rules in literature. Nada.

She probably already has one level on Roy. And if he does come back how we expect, it'll be more.

[Helanna]

I am pretty sure that Tanis Half-Elven (leader) would have his arse handed on a plate by Raistlin Majere...


Comparing people to Raistlin is not the way to go. Even the gods lose to Raistlin. :smallcool:


But yeah, I liked that joke. I guess it's unfair, but only if you think too hard about it. Mostly it's just funny.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I don't think Giant has ever really cared about levels at all before. The story was always more important. I don't think there will be any real gap in ability betwen Rich and the rest of the party.

[Kranden]

That's the whole point.

Haley spends years becoming a master rogue and Crystal gets to leech off her for free even though she is about as smart as a bag of rocks.

If anything Haley loves to earn what she gets, and Crystal is the total opposite of that.

[Boogastreehouse]

More like unfair to Crystal. without any battle experience, Crystal may prove to not be as big a threat after all. Without hard work, Crystal cannot assess her strengths and weaknesses.

Ha! This makes me think of all the MMORPG-playing losers who have someone else powerlevel their character, then they blunder around with these powerful monstrosities, with no understanding of how to use them to their fullest potential.

PS: I don't think MMORPG-players are losers, I think power-levelers are losers.

[evileeyore]

I don't think Giant has ever really cared about levels at all before. The story was always more important. I don't think there will be any real gap in ability betwen Rich and the rest of the party.

Care is a strong word... but The Giant has said (a really really long time ago) that he tries to keep what they can do in a reletive level range. he refused to pin it down and said it was to keep htings open so he do the jokes and story he wanted without worrying about whether someone had a particular feat or what-have-you... but he was trying to keep them in certian ranges and was "advancing" them as the story progressed.

Don't know if he is bothering to do this anymore, but more than likely considering he "just" did a joke about Belkar having Evasion. (okay, it was 139 comics ago...)

[Zolem]

Ha! This makes me think of all the MMORPG-playing losers who have someone else powerlevel their character, then they blunder around with these powerful monstrosities, with no understanding of how to use them to their fullest potential.

PS: I don't think MMORPG-players are losers, I think power-levelers are losers.

Oh I love PKing those guys, you get excelent loot (especialy if they are higher level) AND they rarely if even put up even a fight. I ID them by the way they walk into trees. It doesn't matter if you are 20 levels higher, your a NOOB and you have loot. Real realy good loot.

Anyway yeah I kind of think of Crystal like that as well. I mean, Death Pickle? 'Turned yourself into a dummy made of flour sacks?' She has the power, just not the ability to use it.

[whitelaughter]

Comparing people to Raistlin is not the way to go. Even the gods lose to Raistlin. :smallcool:

The Dragonlance setting had brutal level caps (IIRC each evil god [other than Tahkisis]could have a single 11th level Cleric) attempting to 'balance' the setting, with Raistlin as the only exception - also this was as at the tail end of the era when Monty Haul campaigns would treat Deities and Demigods as just another MM and slaughter their way through entire pantheons.

There was a series of articles in Dragon with Elminster and Mordenkainen nattering with each other and Raistlin's ex-apprentice (I've long since forgotten the name, angsty elf who had five bleeding wounds in his chest from Raist's finger tips). Ex-apprentice was bragging and being obnoxious, until Mordenkainen pointed out that being the most powerful wizard in Krynn didn't make him a match for a second string wizard from Greyhawk...

[John Campbell]

Dalamar.

I remember that; it was hilarious.

[Shatteredtower]

Meh. It's not like Haley actually earned most of those levels either, if you think about it. The Giant merely assigned him to her and plotted out events that would give her a few more. Don't forget that she'd also have received an equal share xp for defeating Xykon and his forces for doing nothing more than preventing Elan from touching the Gate.


I am pretty sure that Tanis Half-Elven (leader) would have his arse handed on a plate by Raistlin Majere...
:smallbiggrin:

Or Caramon Majere. Going by published 1st Ed statistics only, Tanis would have been hard-pressed to hold his own against any of the PCs he travelled with -- except for the kender.

Of course, you were still better off than Laurana, who was supposed to be the leader of the team playing through the other side of the story: a 5th level elf fighter in a 10th-12th level party that could expect to face a lot of level draining foes -- back when lost levels were for keeps and defenses against it were practically nonexistent. Sure, she had the highest average for ability scores, but the 18 Charisma didn't really compensate for the fact that her lowest scores were in Strength and Constitution, there wasn't any Weapon Finesse (or array of archery feats) to let her take advantage of her impressive Dexterity, and her high Intelligence didn't even give her bonus languages, let alone extra skill points.

It's a bad sign when you have roughly the same number of hp as the (supposedly) frail Raistlin by the final module and your opponents include a guy that can cast power word kill and a 20-die fireball once per day.