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Heliomance
2008-11-17, 09:24 AM
I'm currently making a character focused around hurling large numbers of javelins using telekinesis. I don't want a full build, I'd like to try and move up in my optimising skill so I can do this relatively autonomously. What I'm looking for is general suggestions of useful feats and classes to look at, a skeleton that I can make my own build out of. Races as well, LA and HD not hugely important, but lower would be preferred.

No spellcasting classes or consumable magic items allowed. Continuous magic equipment is fine.

Fan
2008-11-17, 09:30 AM
I'm currently making a character focused around hurling large numbers of javelins using telekinesis. I don't want a full build, I'd like to try and move up in my optimising skill so I can do this relatively autonomously. What I'm looking for is general suggestions of useful feats and classes to look at, a skeleton that I can make my own build out of. Races as well, LA and HD not hugely important, but lower would be preferred.

No spellcasting classes or consumable magic items allowed. Continuous magic equipment is fine.

Well, a glove of telekinesis from the MIC works just fine.
But, if your using telekinesis why stop at javelins?
Use it to throw boulders, and take the Hulking Hurler class if you want.
You just need to grab a permanent enlarge person for yourself, and you qualify.
That or take Jotunbroud to get powerful build equivlancyl.

Ivius
2008-11-17, 09:31 AM
Master of the Unseen Hand from Complete Warrior, and Master Thrower from same would both be good for this build. A Ring of Telekinesis (core) seems pretty much mandatory for this build.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 09:37 AM
I'm doing it using ghost, and the reason I'm using weapons is because I can hurl 15 Colossal+ darts which each do 4d6 damage. I can then stack enchanments like corrosive and frost on them for even more.

Ivius
2008-11-17, 09:50 AM
Ah. Then'd I'd try to get Charisma to as many things as possible, since you'll probably have lots of it as a ghost.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 10:50 AM
Are you sure this is a good idea? Telekinesis lets you use Violent Thrust to hurl weapons, but does not give you proficiency with these weapons, make melee weapons other than improvised for throwing, or change weapon range increments. Colossal+ darts still have only a 20' range increment. And how would you transport these darts when not hurling them? We're talking over 120K gp for 15 ghost touch weapons, or having a porter to schlep around your wagonload of ridiculously big darts.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 10:53 AM
Darts are simple weapons, easy to get proficiency with. A bag of holding or similar takes care of the carrying around thing. My current build can hurl 15 Colossal+ darts every 1d4 rounds at a +23 bonus, each one doing 4d6+8 damage. Before enchantments.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-17, 11:12 AM
This seems like it would be something easier to fake by refluffing Warlock. Just say your Eldritch Blast takes the form of materializing and hurling javelins at ballistic speeds towards your foes. This way you can't run out of ammo and don't need to involve bags of holding, which might be a major problem if you intend to use actual javelins. You could also use just about any race (though naturally I'll recommend a pixie with a Permanent Illusion to look like whatever race you want to appear to be)

If you go this route ask your GM if you he can help you homebrew an invocation to simulate Telekinesis and/or Mage Hand as well. Repelling Blast is also fun for this, too.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 11:25 AM
Arena fight, casting classes are banned. Besides, can an eldritch blast do 60d6+120 damage?

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 11:41 AM
Can I recommend against putting a bunch of magically charged pointy objects in a bag of holding assuming you want to keep and reuse said pointy objects? That seems like a tremendously bad idea.

olelia
2008-11-17, 12:14 PM
Just curious...but where is the +8 coming from since there is no strength is applied with telekenis?

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-17, 12:18 PM
Arena fight, casting classes are banned. Besides, can an eldritch blast do 60d6+120 damage?

Hmm.. no casters kills warlock. That's too bad.

As for the general Warlock damage question: Absolutely, and a whole heck of a lot more. Try Empower, Maximize, Quicken SLA Feat's with a Greater Chausible of Fell Power, Eldritch Glaive, optimized Hellfire Blast damage and a Divine Power buff from a wand. It'll beat 60d6 +120 (~330ish) no problem, and may even do quadruple that if I run the numbers.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 12:56 PM
Just curious...but where is the +8 coming from since there is no strength is applied with telekenis?

Master of the Unseen Hand level 4 allows you to apply your int or cha modifier to damage for telekinesis, and use your caster level instead of your BAB. My charisma is 32 now (18 base, +2 spellscale, +4 ghost, +2 level based stat bumps, +6 cloak of charisma), so alter that to +11 to damage and +29 to hit.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 01:58 PM
Incidentally, the Manifestation ability doesn't mention what sort of action it takes to go ethereal or manifest again. Do I assume it doesn't actually take any action?

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 03:06 PM
Darts are simple weapons, easy to get proficiency with. A bag of holding or similar takes care of the carrying around thing. Not very well at all.
If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.
...
Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.
Sharp darts would immediately destroy any Bag of Holding. If you stored 15 non-sharp items of the same size as Colossal+ darts, you would need 15 full-round actions to retrieve them.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 03:13 PM
Very well, then. I shall use a portable hole. I believe telekinesis will allow me to retrieve all the darts at once once the hole is open.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 03:14 PM
Incidentally, the Manifestation ability doesn't mention what sort of action it takes to go ethereal or manifest again. Do I assume it doesn't actually take any action? Don't assume any such thing; it takes a standard action.
Manifestation (Su): Every ghost has this ability.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. You're aware that when you manifest you still can't interact with material objects unless they have the ghost touch enhancement, right? That includes the Portable Hole you'd need to carry about and spread open on a flat surface.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 03:23 PM
Ghostly Equipment

When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature's possession).

Monster Manual says otherwise.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 03:29 PM
OK, so your Portable Hole becomes ethereal along with you. Which means your gear stays on the Ethereal Plane, unless you take it along when you manifest, at which time it's incorporeal and still can't interact with material objects.
Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost.
Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. Your darts would need to interact physically with opponents, which they cannot do except on the Ethereal Plane.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 03:31 PM
Portable hole fabric may be incorporeal, but it's effectively a gate to a demiplane. Once it's open, it doesn't matter whether it's corporeal or not.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 03:37 PM
Portable hole fabric may be incorporeal, but it's effectively a gate to a demiplane. Once it's open, it doesn't matter whether it's corporeal or not. Two things matter here:
It must be spread upon a surface, and it can only interact with a Material Plane surface if it's corporeal.
The contents need to be corporeal to interact with beings on the Material Plane.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 03:43 PM
The contents can be corporeal, yes, even if the portable hole is incorporeal. Because the objects aren't sitting in the incorporeal piece of fabric, they're sitting on a demi plane.

And in that case, I'll simply take a 3 foot radius incorporeal disc of wood that can be folded to a manageable size. Sure, it'll mean it takes a round or two to get the stuff out, but my telekinesis lasts for 20 rounds. Plenty of time to run from an attacker while ethereal, manifest somewhere they can't get to me, retrieve my darts, then come back and muller them with 15 lots of 4d6+11+1d6 elemental+3d6 sneak attack+2d6 skirmish.

Gaiwecoor
2008-11-17, 03:47 PM
...
And in that case, I'll simply take a 3 foot radius incorporeal disc of wood that can be folded to a manageable size. ...

I think the point that Curmudgeon is trying to make is that the only thing you can slap that portable hole on is something in the ethereal plane (which you impliedly admitted by stating you'd use an incorporeal disc of wood). If the hole is located on the ethereal plane, you won't be pulling those magic darts into the material plane.

No. I can't really point to anything other than "it makes sense to me" that supports this.

NEO|Phyte
2008-11-17, 03:49 PM
The solution is to take Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis) so you can interact with corporeal objects.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 04:00 PM
I think the point that Curmudgeon is trying to make is that the only thing you can slap that portable hole on is something in the ethereal plane (which you impliedly admitted by stating you'd use an incorporeal disc of wood). If the hole is located on the ethereal plane, you won't be pulling those magic darts into the material plane.

No. I can't really point to anything other than "it makes sense to me" that supports this.

Once I've manifested, it's not on the ethereal plane. It's just incorporeal.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 04:07 PM
As an aside you're also only going to get your sneak attack and skirmish damage on the first dart, not the subsequent salvo. Also, an incorporeal object cannot interact with the material plane, if you drop the portable hole it's just going to sink through the floor.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 04:12 PM
What first dart? They're all going at once. There is no first one, it's 15 hitting at the exact same time.

And the second point is why I suggested having a folding incorporeal wooden disc.

Zeful
2008-11-17, 04:12 PM
As an aside you're also only going to get your sneak attack and skirmish damage on the first dart, not the subsequent salvo. Also, an incorporeal object cannot interact with the material plane, if you drop the portable hole it's just going to sink through the floor.


Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The SRD disagrees.

Gaiwecoor
2008-11-17, 04:12 PM
Once I've manifested, it's not on the ethereal plane. It's just incorporeal.



Manifestation (Su)

... When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. ... A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

Bits edited and emphasized.

Based on this, I'd say the ghost is mostly on the Ethereal Plane; certainly enough to avoid the 50% miss chance of being incorporeal. This is something that can't be said about the Material Plane. I'd have a hard time accepting that something drawn from a hole that is primarily (though not entirely) on the Ethereal Plane would appear completely in the Material Plane. That's up to whoever is running your game, of course.

It looks like NEO|Phyte's sollution is what you're looking for. (I don't have that book, so I can't confirm)

[Edit Re: Sneak Attack Stuff]

What it really comes down to is how many attack rolls you make. One attack roll? One application of sneak attack dice. 15 attack rolls? 15 sneak attacks!

Aquillion
2008-11-17, 04:15 PM
...I'm going to guess that if spellcasting is banned, then psionics are also banned?

*ducks*

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 04:17 PM
Yes. Telekinetic thrust is a fun power. But psionics are indeed banned.

And I'm making 15 attack rolls, all at +34. At ECL 15, gestalt.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 04:17 PM
And in that case, I'll simply take a 3 foot radius incorporeal disc of wood that can be folded to a manageable size. There's no such thing as an "incorporeal disc of wood". If it's incorporeal, it's not wood; in fact, it's not anything. It needs to have the ghost touch enhancement if you're going to manipulate it on the Material Plane.
Incorporeal

Having no physical body. Stop trying to twist the rules and just take the Ghostly Grasp feat.
Special: Without this feat, an incorporeal creature can only wear or wield items that have the ghost touch special ability.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 04:19 PM
I've taken it due to the fact that I had a feat spare still, but I maintain that a solid yet incorporeal disc would have worked perfectly well as a surface to spread an incorporeal portable hole on.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 04:24 PM
A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

From what I can only hope is an official part of the rules used for D&D.

Gaiwecoor
2008-11-17, 04:29 PM
A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.
From what I can only hope is an official part of the rules used for D&D.



Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)
When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.


Things like your standard Manyshot, yes. They only allow one attack roll. Things that allow multiple attack rolls? They each get their precision damage.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 04:36 PM
Things like your standard Manyshot, yes. They only allow one attack roll. Things that allow multiple attack rolls? They each get their precision damage. Many things, yes. But not spells, including spells manifested as Supernatural abilities.
Multiple Hits

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 04:39 PM
I would like to point out that greater manyshot seems to be the exception as it explicitly states that each attack retains the ability to perform precision damage. The telekinetic thrust in question is an instantaneous spell effect which is comparable to the quickened scorching ray presented in my quote. A quickened scorching ray also requires multiple attack rolls for each ray in question which would be identical to the telekinetic thrust and is mentioned specifically as only gaining a single use of precision damage.

Edit: Dammit, beaten

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-17, 05:45 PM
Darts are simple weapons, easy to get proficiency with. A bag of holding or similar takes care of the carrying around thing. My current build can hurl 15 Colossal+ darts every 1d4 rounds at a +23 bonus, each one doing 4d6+8 damage. Before enchantments.

How are you carrying the bag of holding? You're a ghost. The ethereality is a pain. You can only carry things on the Ethereal plane, and weapons on the Ethereal can only be used against opponents on the Material - even when manifesting - if they're ghost touch weapons.


The contents can be corporeal, yes, even if the portable hole is incorporeal. Because the objects aren't sitting in the incorporeal piece of fabric, they're sitting on a demi plane.

No, seriously. If you're on the Ethereal and lay out the portable hole, it, too, is on the Ethereal. You can, then, only put items in it that are on the Ethereal. You can perceive and affect with certain spells and abilities the Material Plane, but the physical realities do not interact. That's why you're incorporeal and able to walk through walls. If you were just incorporeal, you would be less screwed (since at least you'd be on the same plane with your stuff; you just wouldn't be able to carry it), but that's not how ghosts work.

When a ghost manifests, its equipment does not become corporeal - it's all still incorporeal. Only ghost touch armor will protect you from material opponents, and only ghost touch weapons will affect material opponents. This incorporeal equipment is useless.

There is no way, other than ethereal jaunt or plane shift or similar magic, for you to make the portable hole or the darts corporeal / Material. Using Ghostly Grasp works nicely, although you can forget about taking your portable hole through walls and such - this limits your mobility a lot.

Incorporeal discs are irrelevant, since they, too, are actually ethereal, and become incorporeal with you when you manifest (while remaining, like you, ethereal).

Also, yeah, Curmudgeon is almost certainly right about the sneak attack damage, although it's obviously something that different DMs will have different interpretations over. How are you getting sneak attack anyway? If those darts are able to affect anyone on the material, you can't move through surfaces and attack from inside a wall or the floor or the ground. I guess you could count on a surprise round or something.

All in all, not a great build, unless you manage to bend and twist the rules a fair bit.

hamishspence
2008-11-17, 05:51 PM
there is ghost-touch armour.

I'm not sure if "ghost touch" is an additional property that could be bestowed to any magic item.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 06:15 PM
there is ghost-touch armour.

I'm not sure if "ghost touch" is an additional property that could be bestowed to any magic item. Probably not, as ghost touch for weapons is a +1 enhancement, and ghost touch for armor is a +3 enhancement. Despite having the same name, these are different abilities. And there's no mechanism for translating a +(cost) enhancement into something that could be applied to wondrous objects instead of weapons or armor.

No, I think the feat is the only reasonable way to go here.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-17, 06:21 PM
there is ghost-touch armour.

I'm not sure if "ghost touch" is an additional property that could be bestowed to any magic item.

Unbodied Prc can make stuff ghost touch, but he said no Psionics.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-17, 06:28 PM
I believe Ghost Walk has rules for ectoplasm special material, which gives items forged from it the Ghost Touch property. :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2008-11-17, 07:30 PM
Let's see...

You need a Paladin's Mount. That Spell-Like Summon Mount ability is perfect for your needs. When you Manifest, your spells (and, by inheritance, spell-like abilities) affect both the material and the ethereal planes. Summon Special Mount on the material plane (while Manifested, you can do this), use Telekenisis to load mount with purchases, dismiss mount. The next day, Summon Special Mount on the Ethereal plane (while not manifested), pick up purchases, dismiss mount.

Re-Equippage issue solved with four Paladin levels (and, as a bonus, you get Divine Grace).

Give the Special Mount some kind of carrying case (mundane - you want no arguments on Line of Effect to other planes) for the Javelins, and launch them out of those.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 07:49 PM
How are you getting sneak attack anyway? If those darts are able to affect anyone on the material, you can't move through surfaces and attack from inside a wall or the floor or the ground. I guess you could count on a surprise round or something.

All in all, not a great build, unless you manage to bend and twist the rules a fair bit.

Hide in Plain Sight from a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Also Sneaky Shot from Master Thrower.

I already have 2 levels of Paladin, largely because I needed a non-spellcasting class that had Concentration as a class skill, but also because Divine Grace makes my saves 21/22/21. Final build is here:
Etherscale (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=92248)
Male CG Spellscale Ghost Paladin of Freedom 2/Ranger 3/Scout 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Scout 2/Rogue 2//Ghost LA 5/Rogue 3/Master Thrower 5/Scout 2, Level 15, Init +5, HP 103/103, Speed 25ft/x4;Fly 30ft (Perfect)
AC 23, Touch 23, Flat-footed 23, Fort +21, Ref +22, Will +21, Base Attack Bonus 14
Telekinetically thrown +1 Frost Dart x5 +36 (4d6+13+1d6 Cold, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Shock Dart x5 +36 (4d6+13+1d6 Electric, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Corrosive Dart x5 +36 (4d6+13+1d6 Acid, 19-20/x3)
(+13 Deflect)
Abilities Str 2, Dex 10, Con -, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 36
Condition None

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 07:56 PM
Hide in Plain Sight from a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Based on your past assumptions I bet you didn't realize that this (and all other Extraordinary versions of) Hide in Plain Sight does not remove the need for cover/concealment in order to allow Hide checks. Only the Supernatural version of HiPS that Assassins and Shadowdancers get removes the cover/concealment requirement.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:02 PM
Meh, smokesticks take care of that problem easily enough.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 08:19 PM
Wouldn't smoke sticks also give you a pretty decent chance to miss given that it's obscuring your ability to both see and be seen?

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:25 PM
Thanks to Sneaky Shot, I only need to use them if my opponent has spot higher than my sleight of hand, anyway. I can make a sleight of hand check to deny them their dex bonus. Besides, I'm making 15 attacks each time, I can handle a little miss chance.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 08:26 PM
Wouldn't smoke sticks also give you a pretty decent chance to miss given that it's obscuring your ability to both see and be seen? More than just a chance to miss: a 100% chance of not being able to sneak attack:
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:28 PM
*points out for the third time that Sneaky Shot allows a sleight of hand check as part of the attack to deny dex to AC*

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 08:32 PM
Also, to continue nitpicking, the paladin levels give you nothing if you're CG besides skill points, saves and BAB.

Edit: I stand corrected, didn't notice the "of freedom" part

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:32 PM
Yes they do, actually. You will note that it's not normal paladin, it's paladin of freedom, a CG variant from Unearthed Arcana.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 08:43 PM
*points out for the third time that Sneaky Shot allows a sleight of hand check as part of the attack to deny dex to AC* Certainly -- as a Thrown Weapon Trick. You're not throwing these weapons at all.
Violent Thrust

Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) ...

Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner).
Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). Telekinesis doesn't obey the thrown weapon rules, so you can't use any Thrown Weapon Tricks.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:45 PM
Allow me to change your emphasis.


Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

Darts are thrown weapons, Telekinesis is a specific exception to the general rule that you add strength.

Also, let me quote Sneaky Shot.

Sneaky Shot: Just before making a ranged attack, a master thrower with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target’s Spot check. If she wins the opposed check, her opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack.
Doesn't say anything about thrown.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 08:49 PM
He's saying you aren't throwing them because you aren't applying your strength bonus to them, you're hurling them with your mind, which will doubtless end as an argument over semantics but it does raise a valid point.

If you were using them as thrown weapons you couldn't because of the disparity between their size and your size. Technically they should be considered objects which would do 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds of weight as per the telekinesis spell.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:51 PM
Nope. The Telekinesis entry:

You must succeed on attack rolls (one
per creature or object thrown) to hit the
target with the items, using your base
attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier
(if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a
sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage
(with no Strength bonus; note that arrows
or bolts deal damage as daggers of their
size when used in this manner).

And just because I'm hurling them with my mind, it doesn't change the fact that darts are classified as simple thrown weapons.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 08:54 PM
Doesn't say anything about thrown. Of course it does. You just failed to include that part:
Thrown Weapon Trick (Ex): At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, a master thrower chooses one of the following thrown weapon tricks. Once chosen, the trick is a permanent part of the master thrower’s repertoire and may not be exchanged. A master thrower cannot choose the same trick more than once. Each trick may only be used with a thrown weapon for which the character has taken Weapon Focus.

Deadeye Shot: ...
Defensive Throw: ...
Doubletoss: ...
Palm Throw: ...
Sneaky Shot: Just before making a ranged attack ...
Trip Shot: ...
Tumbling Toss: ...
Two with One Blow: ...
Weak Spot: ...

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 08:57 PM
Again, regardless of the fact that I'm hurling it with my mind not my arms, a dart is categorised as a thrown weapon. Just like a longsword is a one-handed weapon and a light mace is a light weapon, a dart is a thrown weapon. Specifically, it is a thrown weapon I have Weapon Focus with.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 09:04 PM
He's not talking about the category, he's talking about the past tense of the word throwing, as in a weapon I just threw. He's making the point that the master thrower class could be interpreted as only applying to weapons that you yourself have thrown in the traditional manner.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 09:05 PM
Again, regardless of the fact that I'm hurling it with my mind not my arms, a dart is categorised as a thrown weapon. You've got big problems if you want to pursue that argument.
Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. So one size increase changes a dart from a one-handed thrown weapon to a two-handed thrown weapon, imposing a -2 penalty on the attack and requiring a full-round action. Two size increases make it impossible for you to throw it at all.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 09:06 PM
Alternatively, it could just as reasonably be interpreted as applying to any weapon classified as a thrown weapon that you have weapon focus in. Dart is classified as a thrown weapon, and I have weapon focus in it. No problem.

Heliomance
2008-11-17, 09:10 PM
Again, the specific rule in telekinesis overridess the general rule that you quoted. Telekinesismakes no mention of size categories, just says you can throw this much weight. I'm using that much weight to throw a thrown weapon that I have weapon focus in.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 09:24 PM
Again, the specific rule in telekinesis overridess the general rule that you quoted. Telekinesismakes no mention of size categories, just says you can throw this much weight. I'm using that much weight to throw a thrown weapon that I have weapon focus in. It overrides nothing; it just establishes maximum weight limits. If you were Colossal in size you could handle Colossal darts. Most any medium-size Fighter could easily handle Colossal-size darts by weight alone -- but the weapon size rules preclude any medium-size character from throwing those darts.

Face it: either you're using Violent Thrust to hurl, or you're actually using your hands to throw. You can't have both.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-17, 09:32 PM
This is another slice from our favorite compendium of rules

Weapons that are hurled from the hand and require no ammunition are thrown weapons
You see, to a colossal creature these are thrown weapons, but to you, a medium sized creature, the are logs that happen to have sharpened ends. You cannot wield them, only thrust them at people.

olentu
2008-11-17, 09:38 PM
Depending on how people want to read the spell telekinesis says that "you must succeed on attack rolls to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer)." So it could be argued that since the attack is not specified as a ranged attack sneaky shot would not work since you are not said to be making a ranged attack and additionally as you are not a wizard or sorcerer it could be argued that this part of the spell description "using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer)" means that you only get to use your base attack on the attack roll.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-17, 09:44 PM
This is another slice from our favorite compendium of rules

You see, to a colossal creature these are thrown weapons, but to you, a medium sized creature, the are logs that happen to have sharpened ends. You cannot wield them, only thrust them at people.

What if you have really, really big hands for your race?

Flickerdart
2008-11-17, 09:52 PM
What if you have really, really big hands for your race?
You know what they say about Pixies with big hands. Namely, "why in the world did you waste a feat on Monkey Grip?"

Curmudgeon
2008-11-17, 10:18 PM
What if you have really, really big hands for your race? Seriously, it negates some of the penalties for inappropriate size. So a dart one size larger could still be thrown one-handed with Monkey Grip as a standard action (instead of two-handed as a full-round action), though the -2 penalty to all such attacks would remain.

KevLar
2008-11-17, 11:22 PM
@Heliomance, I just found your thread. I've read your char sheet again (carefully this time) and I must say I agree with Curmudgeon. Using the Violent Thrust option of Telekinesis doesn't allow any attack option your character would have from class abilities or feats or anything at all. Because it's not an attack. All you do is mentally hurl the darts. As I said in the other thread, your attack roll is defined as BAB+(Int or Cha), which becomes Caster Level+Cha in your case. The fact that they are darts and not, say, boulders, mean simply that they deal their listed damage (while for boulders, you'd have to calculate damage for their weight etc). But your Weapon Focus (dart) is irrelevant.

Perhaps you got confused with the Warlock, and thought that since Sneak attack applies to eldritch blast, then Sneak attack (and other abilities) would apply to Violent Thrust. But the eldritch blast is a defined as a ranged attack, which is not the case here. And since Violent Thrust is not an attack, it doesn't benefit from skirmish, sneak attack, weapon focus, favored enemy, smite evil, or anything else you can cram into the build.

At least, that's how I see it. I wish I could offer a suggestion to fix this build, but I can't think of anything. I really don't think that Violent Thrust is a viable tactic for an arena. Unless the terrain is full of rubble and rocks that can be hurled, and you can use Sustained Concentration on this form of attack for distraction, while spending your standard actions to something else? Still not a good option...


EDIT - An argument against what I'm saying could be that Telekinesis counts as a weaponlike spell, per Rules Compendium. If that was the case, at least precision damage (sneak attack and skirmish in your build) and favored enemy bonuses would apply. But I don't believe it is.

Weaponlike spells that deal some form of damage—lethal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or ability drain—or that bestow negative levels can threaten critical hits, can be used with precision damage (see page 42), and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. Since a weaponlike spell isn’t actually a weapon, Strength modifiers on damage rolls and magical effects that increase weapon damage don’t increase damage.
Violent Thrust doesn't deal damage. It just hurls items. Those items will indeed cause damage if they hit, but that's a mundane effect, not a direct result of the spell. So, IMO, it doesn't count as a "weaponlike spell".

Recaiden
2008-11-17, 11:33 PM
There's always the master of the unseen hand prestige class for telekinesis. A rod of chaining to use many violent thrusts at once several times a day might be worth it.

Heliomance
2008-11-18, 02:42 AM
Pretty sure it's impossible to adjudicate by pure RAW, it's just not clarified enough. RAI is trickier, and I'm choosing to I it differently to, say, Curmudgeon. In the end, it comes down to what the DM is willing to allow.

Actually, I had a better idea anyway. I traded out improved turn resistance for quicken manifestation. I can now manifest as a free action, move 10-30 feet as a move action, and perforate my opponent as a standard action. Due to the fact that they haven't had a go since I appeared, I believe they are flat-footed.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-18, 01:10 PM
Pretty sure it's impossible to adjudicate by pure RAW, it's just not clarified enough. RAI is trickier, and I'm choosing to I it differently to, say, Curmudgeon. In the end, it comes down to what the DM is willing to allow.
We disagree about what's clear. You've got a vested interested in seeing ambiguity where none really exists. In the end, you're attempting to push your character's power past what the DM expects from characters who stay within the boundaries of RAW.

Actually, I had a better idea anyway. I traded out improved turn resistance for quicken manifestation. I can now manifest as a free action, move 10-30 feet as a move action, and perforate my opponent as a standard action. Due to the fact that they haven't had a go since I appeared, I believe they are flat-footed. You believe incorrectly again. Characters are flat-footed when they have not yet acted when combat starts. Combat actions against your fellow party members will make them no longer flat-footed, and they do not become flat-footed again when you manifest. Your attack would have to precede any action by the enemies for them to still be flat-footed. And you still have to retrieve your Portable Hole (a move action to "retrieve a stored item") and spread it upon a surface (a full-round action because you have to move around its perimeter while spreading it to make sure no edge remains folded). So by the time you actually can access your darts, nobody will be flat-footed.

Heliomance
2008-11-18, 01:20 PM
How long does it have to be with no combat actions taken before it's called a new combat? Because I'm quite willing to stay ethereal and untouchable for as long as it takes.

Besides, the question is moot as the DM doesn't have a problem with my build.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-18, 01:25 PM
There's also the fact that nowhere does it state that you can apply your weapon focus (dart) to using telekinesis in this manner. The SRD lists several feats which can be applied to spells like weapon focus (touch) or improved critical (ray). This would also mean that any weapon trick you get from master thrower would be useless given that you can't apply your focus to the weapon you're using.

Heliomance
2008-11-18, 01:27 PM
Besides, the question is moot as the DM doesn't have a problem with my build.

See above.