Why hasn't Roy met Miko in Heaven?

[MikoROCKS]

seriously wouldn't that be cool?? :miko: :roy:

They're both lawful good afterall......

[BRC]

Why hasn't he met every single lawful good person who has ever died?

[Spiryt]

Well, somebody will start this discussion...

So I can do this as well.

I think that Miko was on the very verge of LG whole life, and not LG anymore when she died.

* hides behind solid object *

[MikoROCKS]

but she was doing what she thaught was right...

i bet she'd beat the hell out of the celestial if she wasn't allowed in...

[BRC]

but she was doing what she thaught was right...
This turns into the Intent vs Action argument concerning Alignment. My point was that, even if they are in the same afterlife, there is no reason Roy should run into Miko any more than he should run into any other LG person who is on the first level of the mountain. And what he's done since he's got there has been make a beeline for his moms house and go fishing with his dad. He hasn't exactly been wandering around trying to meet people.

[Zevox]

Well, somebody will start this discussion...

So I can do this as well.

I think that Miko was on the very verge of LG whole life, and not LG anymore when she died.

* hides behind solid object *
I agree. She was only borderline good throughout her life, and slipped to neutral when she killed Shojo. Thus her fall. The fact that the rest of her life was spent telling herself that the Gods must have a special plan for her, because of course she has to be special, she couldn't possibly have simply been dead wrong, sure didn't help either.

In any event, you'll recall from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that the dead from different regions of the world go to different parts of the mountain. Thus even if Miko were to get into Celestia (which again, I highly doubt she would), the odds that they'd see each are probably pretty long. Especially given it seems that Roy spends most or all of his time with his family or down in the waiting area with his father.

Zevox

[stickygoo]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

Eugene has your answer on panel 4

[shakes019]

I'll play along.

:roy: Hey, you're a b**ch, and I don't like you as much as I used to.
:miko: Hey, what are you doing here? I thought you were evil, or at least I rationalized that you were in order to justify my unreasonable hatred of you.

I don't think that Miko and Roy would want to speak to one another in the afterlife. To Roy, Miko was at best an antagonistic hero who was responsible for a substantial amount of the problems that Order had to overcome. To Miko, Roy was the same. I think that Roy would not have been surprised to see Miko in the LG afterlife, but what would he really have to say to her that he didn't say in life?

The only purpose that such a meeting would serve would be fanservice to the most ardent Miko fans, but the rest of the story would not be likely to advance. Miko has no additional info about the other gates, so she can't advance the plot, and Roy was watching the final battle, so he probably knows exactly what happened and who destroyed the gate.

Even the assessment of Miko's alignment status was already dealt with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)***, so continuing her story into the afterlife would serve little purpose.

*** ETA: Although it was perhaps unclear whether her alignment had shifted, at least Miko had her key deficiencies addressed and seemed to accept the judgment given. So an assessment from a celestial case-worker would probably repeat the assessment that Soon gave her.

[hamishspence]

Wasn't very clear "visit you as much as able" could mean both are on different Celestial Planes, and horse can sometimes make trips between them (Arcadia, or Bytopia would be possibilities) which means Miko could be NG, or even LN (Arcadia accepts the LN)

[Kurald Galain]

...because it wouldn't be heaven if Miko is there! :smalltongue:

[MikoROCKS]

Aww come ON!!!!

*Throws katana as a smite evil sneak attack*
(yes i AM a multi-class rogue/paladin)

:miko::haley:

[hamishspence]

6 other "heavens" one for each variant of Good, with two being for the Neutral-bordering on Good, as well as Good. She might not be in Celestia.

Mechanus and Limbo aren't Upper Planes, so not really heavens.

[Texas Jedi]

[Edit:] Soon said her horse could visit her as much as he is able. That implies that Windstriker is in a different plane. That would be true if he was a celestial horse. He would have to be in one of the heavens. I don't think Arcadia is considered a heaven (I could be wrong about that) because it is more lawful than good.

Miko at the end of her life murdered an innocent man. I don't think we have to argue the fact that murder is evil in almost any form. That would move her down from LG to LN, or place her soul in Arcadia (More Lawful than Good) from Celestia (More Good than Lawful).

[Edit:Soon even said that she did her duty......technically. That also implies that she was still Lawful when she died. She didn't have the heart to admit she was wrong. True remose and atonenment must be through soul searching and admitting you could be wrong. She did nothing of the sort when she was dying. She questioned whe Soon couldn't have killed Xykon. Then she asked about Windstriker. She never apologized, she never showed anytype of remorse.]

I personally don't think she died LG and is stuck in Mechanus or Arcadia. She commited an evil act and paid for it by falling.

[MikoROCKS]

......hmm....... Miko kinda showed a little remorse when she died so she could have changed back to LG then.... she wouldn't get her paladin powers back unless she atoned still (which she'd have trouble with as half a corpse) :smallyuk:

[Scarlet Knight]

If Roy wanted, would Miko appear in the "Inn of Endless One Night Stands"? Could he *poof* her in if he wished? Or would she just be an illusion appearing & acting however he wanted to have Miko act ?

:miko: "Oh, Roy; I never thought of things like that. You've opened my eyes! Let me give you a bath before you take me , my mighty northern hero!"

:roy: "Now THIS is heaven!"

[BRC]

......hmm....... Miko kinda showed a little remorse when she died so she could have changed back to LG then.... she wouldn't get her paladin powers back unless she atoned still (which she'd have trouble with as half a corpse) :smallyuk:
The point is she didn't show remorse. She never admitted that what she did was wrong. She never said "I should not have killed Shojo", which is what needed to happen.

[Ancalagon]

The real reason: Miko's plot was simply over. The last point was made, everything else would only have watered it down.

Apart from that: Heaven is biiig.

[Spiryt]

The real reason: Miko's plot was simply over. The last point was made, everything else would only have watered it down.

Apart from that: Heaven is biiig.

Indeed, Miko comeback, unless reaaaaaaly well made, would be kinda lame. Her last moments were thrilling and kinda touching, making her come back for view jokes or something would be seriously spoiling.

[Assassin89]

If Roy and Miko do meet, I would expect Miko attempting to kill Roy in the afterlife

[hamishspence]

there were many arguments that it wasn't murder but manslaughter.

whether manslaughter is evil is another question entirely- under most circumstances I would treat it as "unknowingly committing an evil act" which, according to atonement spell description, typically makes paladins fall.

I'd say, when act would be murder if you knew it was unjustified, its manslaughter, if you thought it was execution and were proven wrong.

in 3.0, you couldn't restore paladinhood, at all, unless act was unknowing, or under magical compulsion. in 3.5, you can, but costs XP, unless act is unknowing or under magical compulsion.

Though some people keep insisting the text in Paladin entry, cut and pasted from 3.0, overrides Atonement spell (was same in 3.0- it said intentional acts make you fall, but only in Atonement description was it made very, very clear, that unintentional ones do to.)

So, in my view- Miko's act was "unknowing murder" that is, manslaughter- evil, but a cleric could have cast Atonement on her and not lost any XP.

[Steven the Lich]

I personally would rather see her appear as a death knight...

But this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) puts some serious doubt on it. :smallfrown:

[hamishspence]

yes- she doesn't really seem to act if she has "unfinished business" when she's dying. If she'd been a bit more interested in what was going on around her, maybe.

Miko the Ghost- haunting Azure city until its reclaimed- interesting possibility, doubtful though. or The Revenant, Out For Revenge (old favourite which for mysterious reasons only appears in Faerun sourcebooks.)

[Morty]

I personally would rather see her appear as a death knight...

But this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) puts some serious doubt on it. :smallfrown:

Contrary to popular belief, no plot is made of rubber. Sometimes, there are things that you just can't fit into it.
Also, Miko might not have been LG at the moment of her death, but am I the only one who thinks a lifetime of service for Law and Good sort of deserves LG afterlife? Then again, OoTsverse gods are pricks, so who knows.

[Tirian]

Apart from that: Heaven is biiig.

Specifically, it seems to me that Miko wouldn't even have spent a day on the "pleasures of the body" plateau of Celestia, so eager is she to meet and do the work of the Twelve Gods. She'd just as soon keep on climbing higher than Roy has cared to go.

[hamishspence]

Faerun gods can be worse. Paladin- besieging army- challenges champions of army to duels and beats lots of them. But leader of evil horde refuses to face him, and army is too big to beat.

Paladin sneaks into enemy camp and kills Dark lord in sleep- is killed by Dark-Lords soldiers, who then storm and destroy city.

Paladin is not accepted into afterlife, spends a thousand years as a ghost, before granted opportunity to redeem self as skeletal paladin.

Pools of Darkness.

So the "is it ok to kill a Dark Lord in his sleep" question gets a No of epic proportions.

[FFTGeist]

The most I would like to see would be to have Miko as an "extra" in a scene. Somewhere in the background.
No interaction between Roy and Miko.

Outside of that I don't see the point. :thog:

[Texas Jedi]

Faerun gods can be worse. Paladin- besieging army- challenges champions of army to duels and beats lots of them. But leader of evil horde refuses to face him, and army is too big to beat.

Paladin sneaks into enemy camp and kills Dark lord in sleep- is killed by Dark-Lords soldiers, who then storm and destroy city.

Paladin is not accepted into afterlife, spends a thousand years as a ghost, before granted opportunity to redeem self as skeletal paladin.

Pools of Darkness.

So the "is it ok to kill a Dark Lord in his sleep" question gets a No of epic proportions.

That is why they had the Time of Troubles. Gods weren't doing their duty in shuffling people off this mortal coil and into the next.

[Starbuck_II]

Faerun gods can be worse. Paladin- besieging army- challenges champions of army to duels and beats lots of them. But leader of evil horde refuses to face him, and army is too big to beat.

So the "is it ok to kill a Dark Lord in his sleep" question gets a No of epic proportions.

Worse, if you lack a Diety Keldore splatters you on the wall.

[hamishspence]

this was about a thousand years before Kelemvor. Myrkul put the Wall of the faithless up, Cyric and Kelemvor continued it.

Technically, he would be one of the False- believers and followers of the deity, who have...not lived up to the standards set.

His "unfinished business" meant he was sent back to the world as a ghost, then offered chance of redemption a thousand years later. Jumped at it- and was stuck with a skeletal form.

Lucky for him the party he joined wasn't Smite On Sight.

[stickygoo]

Am i really the only one that sees any points about alignment moot when considering the chances of Roy and Miko meeting in the afterlife?

He's a Northerner, she's a Southerner. Two different pantheons, two different religions, two different sets of afterlifes (or would it be "afterlives"?)

Even if Miko said "oops. i'm sorry. i was totally wrong." and Soon said "you are forgiven Miko, welcome back." and POOF she got her Paladin-hood back, before she croaked, she still wouldn't be where Roy is.

[Faramir]

My first thought on reading this title was that it wouldn't be heaven for either of them...

[David Argall]

Indeed, Miko comeback, unless reaaaaaaly well made, would be kinda lame. Her last moments were thrilling and kinda touching, making her come back for view jokes or something would be seriously spoiling.

Well, it's not that bad, but yeah. To make a proper comeback for Miko would pretty much make this the story of Miko. The send off was pretty final and there really isn't much to be said for any brief re-appearance.

[Llaqus]

......hmm....... Miko kinda showed a little remorse when she died so she could have changed back to LG then.... she wouldn't get her paladin powers back unless she atoned still (which she'd have trouble with as half a corpse) :smallyuk:


I think most people are forgetting the death scene which proves she did not die as a LG:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html Its pretty heavily hinted that she's not going to die as a LG and Windstriker is going to visit her, not the other way around which simply means she isn't able to move as freely as him in the afterlife. So what my intuition picks up from this is she isn't dying as a LG and it would be impossible for her to run into Roy even if they were in the same hemisphere of the afterlife.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I would say the question of whether or not Miko is in heaven boils down to this: Is a person condemned for being wrong? I would say the answer is no. If the person was unrepentant this would be different. I wouldn't call Miko unrepentant. She had enough mental issues that she thought that everything was somehow a trick. This is a mental disorder, not evidence of evil.

[PandaCthulhu]

Saying "Why hasn't Roy met Miko in heaven?" is a bit like going on holiday to Mexico, and saying "why didn't I meet my mate Dave? I know he lives in Mexico somewhere, and I was in Mexico, so I surely would have bumped into him by accident."

Or more accurately, since one goes to the afterlife of the Northern Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) and the other the Southern, it is a bit like like going to New York and expecting to bump into someone who currently lives in New Orleans.

i.e. it is a non-question. The world is a big place....even the OoTS world.

However,
Well, somebody will start this discussion...

So I can do this as well.

I think that Miko was on the very verge of LG whole life, and not LG anymore when she died.

* hides behind solid object *"is Miko even in an LG afterlife?" is a much more interesting question.

[Lokasenna]

Am i really the only one that sees any points about alignment moot when considering the chances of Roy and Miko meeting in the afterlife?

He's a Northerner, she's a Southerner. Two different pantheons, two different religions, two different sets of afterlifes (or would it be "afterlives"?)

Even if Miko said "oops. i'm sorry. i was totally wrong." and Soon said "you are forgiven Miko, welcome back." and POOF she got her Paladin-hood back, before she croaked, she still wouldn't be where Roy is.
Actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

I think both Northerns and Southerns go to the same Heaven if they are the same alignment, it's just the "processing" area that's different. You can clearly see an Azurite soldier and a paladin on the same mountain that Roy is climbing.

[The Hop Goblin]

yes- she doesn't really seem to act if she has "unfinished business" when she's dying. If she'd been a bit more interested in what was going on around her, maybe.

Miko the Ghost- haunting Azure city until its reclaimed- interesting possibility, doubtful though. or The Revenant, Out For Revenge (old favourite which for mysterious reasons only appears in Faerun sourcebooks.)

Or, becomes a patron saint of 'paladins' that believe the ends justify the means. I can see a tyrannical military state that borders on evil for misguided ideals upholding St. Miko the Vengeful.

[Zevox]

If the person was unrepentant this would be different. I wouldn't call Miko unrepentant.
Except she very much so was. Recall that Soon even told her point-blank just before she died that she had never so much as acknowledged that she could be wrong - much less acknowledged that she was wrong and attempted to repent for her mistake. As I mentioned before, she spent the rest of her life from when she killed Shojo until she destroyed the Gate telling herself she was special, that the Gods must have a plan for her in spite of revoking her status as a Paladin - she was a very self-centered person. Hell, until being told off by Soon, she still thought she might become a Paladin again from her actions.

Miko was unrepentant. She never even figured out, up until Soon told her in the moment before her death, that she even had anything to be repentant about. And that in spite of her fall, which should have been as clear a signal as possible - it was literally divine intervention, after all. There's no way she got into the Lawful Good afterlife given that.

Zevox

[Zeful]

I think most people are forgetting the death scene which proves she did not die as a LG:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html Its pretty heavily hinted that she's not going to die as a LG and Windstriker is going to visit her, not the other way around which simply means she isn't able to move as freely as him in the afterlife. So what my intuition picks up from this is she isn't dying as a LG and it would be impossible for her to run into Roy even if they were in the same hemisphere of the afterlife.

That proves nothing. It hints that she might not be LG, but provides nothing more than an implication. It could mean that Windstriker is NG and lives on a different plane. That sentence could mean much more than "Miko isn't LG".

[Kish]

I think most people are forgetting the death scene which proves she did not die as a LG:
Really, now. I think a very brief glance over the posts of most people who argue that Miko died LG demonstrates that very few people are forgetting the death scene; rather, they're disagreeing with your interpretation of what it proves.

[Knolan]

She lost her powers because she willingly made an evil act, which does not mean her alignment has changed, for example, roy has left elan behind for his probably death (which is pretty evil) and his alignment hasn't changed. You can make an evil act and keep being good.

Being a paladin means NEVER making any evil act, she would need to atone for her evil act in order to get her powers back, which, again, does not mean she became evil or neutral... I won't even argue about Lawful, she is the most lawful character in this comic.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Shojo wasn't exactly innocent. He knew the Order had accidentally destroyed the gate due to Elan's random stupidity while trying to noble stand against an evil lich. Yet he kept this vital piece of information from Miko. He could have told her that and she would have still gone off to arrest the Order, and would have probably been less stabby.

He knew Miko was going to assume they were evil cultists bent on freeing the Snarl (which is the most likely scenario for somebody destroying a gate anyway. The party idiot pushed the self-destruct rune because it was shiny is the explanation that's grasping at straws), and yet he let her go thinking that. That was an unnecessary lie that put both Miko and the Order at risk.

Speculation:

I'd like to think that he entrusted Eugene to relay that info to Miko and Eugene "accidentally" forgot because he wanted to see his son get beat within an inch of his life.

In which case, I'd love to see Miko uncover that bit of info and this exchange:

:roy: (Walks in on Miko beating the everloving crap out of Eugene)...I would ask what you're doing here...but first, I want to know why you are beating the everloving crap out of my father.
:miko:Because he's the biggest jerk in Celestia...yes, even bigger than you. (Explains what I just speculated up above).
:roy:Oh...carry on then.
Eugene: Oh...peanut brittle.
Roy and Miko then join together and beat the everloving crap out of Eugene in harmony.

[someonenonotyou]

If Roy and Miko do meet, I would expect Miko attempting to kill Roy in the afterlife
yeah i could see that
:miko:hey what are you doing here DIE!
:miko:Slashes
:miko:*poofs to NG heven*

[Captain Six]

After she was told she could not be a paladin again the only class feature Miko double-checked was her companion. Her final words were those of acceptance. I think at the time of her death she finally understood she messed up and started to slide back to LG, if one (abet large) mistake after a lifetime of service was enough to derail it. My money is that Miko is sitting on a cloud somewhere outside of the LG afterlife trying to sort everything out. If she did meet Roy I see her asking questions faster than drawing swords.

For all those saying that there isn't that big of a chance of meeting one person the afterlife, come on. This is not only a story but a story that frequently lampshades it's own rampant use of storytelling techniques. I don't see why coincidental encounters wouldn't be one of them.

[The Hop Goblin]

After she was told she could not be a paladin again the only class feature Miko double-checked was her companion. Her final words were those of acceptance. I think at the time of her death she finally understood she messed up and started to slide back to LG, if one (abet large) mistake after a lifetime of service was enough to derail it...

Or, you know, she wasn't capable of arguing anymore as she was in a state of extreme physical shock; as her lower half was laying approximately 10 feet away from her upper half.

You most likely could have told her that Celestial Rhino's were arm wrestling over the fate of her family line, and she would have responded, "Oh... okay... that's fine."

D&D alignment typically does not allow for "extenuating circumstances" or "in view of life long service" when determining a fall, or change in alignment. If an act is undeniably evil, regardless of the 'intentions', then you comitted an evil act.


Some argue she had 'good intentions'; although, anyone can justify any evil act with such a line. Serial killers have been known to claim a higher power ordered them to kill, or that they were trying to relieve someone of the hold of evil spirits. In a court of law it really doesn't sway the verdict.

But you know the old saying about Good Intentions and the material of the road leading to the Abyss.

The only way that Paladin's can recover from a fall is with atonement. Atonement includes admitting that the act that led directly to the fall was evil and/or against the direct moral standards of the deity they serve. You can't say, "I atone and want to be a Paladin again, although I really didn't do anything wrong in the first place."

She was a selfish, ego-centric character with dillusions of grandeur - and she died as such. End of story, really.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Roy is in the Lawful Good afterlife.

Miko is in the Lawful Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid?from=Main.LawfulStupid) afterlife.

[dps]

The only way that Paladin's can recover from a fall is with atonement. Atonement includes admitting that the act that led directly to the fall was evil and/or against the direct moral standards of the deity they serve. You can't say, "I atone and want to be a Paladin again, although I really didn't do anything wrong in the first place."

She was a selfish, ego-centric character with dillusions of grandeur - and she died as such. End of story, really.

Yep, the only way to recover Paladinhood after a fall is to atone, and Miko didn't attone and therefore can't be a Paladin again. But that proves nothing in the context of this discussion, since you don't have to be a Paladin to be Lawful Good.

[MReav]

Why haven't they met? Because neither of them want to.

[Captain Six]

D&D alignment typically does not allow for "extenuating circumstances" or "in view of life long service" when determining a fall, or change in alignment. If an act is undeniably evil, regardless of the 'intentions', then you comitted an evil act.

Some argue she had 'good intentions'; although, anyone can justify any evil act with such a line. Serial killers have been known to claim a higher power ordered them to kill, or that they were trying to relieve someone of the hold of evil spirits. In a court of law it really doesn't sway the verdict.

Oh no, good intentions saves no one. She fell, she fell hard. What I'm saying is that she accepted that and started to recover her general alignment, not her paladinhood. In a story this cinematic I don't think being torn in half would damage rationality that much, as odd as that is to say it would be a very out of place bit of realism. When it comes to alignment I see it Good and Evil as equal and opposite as opposed to Evil being a corrupting force. She committed evil acts yes, but if one evil act dramatically changes her whole alignment then one good act would change it right back. Maybe it's a rare moment of idealism for me but I would like it if the tale of Miko ended with her learning something through it all. It seems right for this kind of story.

[David Argall]

Shojo wasn't exactly innocent. He knew the Order had accidentally destroyed the gate due to Elan's random stupidity while trying to noble stand against an evil lich. Yet he kept this vital piece of information from Miko. He could have told her that and she would have still gone off to arrest the Order, and would have probably been less stabby.
Well, it's hard to see how she would have. You are being sent a thousand miles beyond your borders to perform a mission of state. You don't think the crime is a misdemeanor. And if you are told it is to invite them to come to the city for a medal, you start asking questions, questions Shojo didn't want to answer.
Shojo wanted to do what the paladins were pledged not to do. If he let them learn of his plan, he would have been deposed or simply prevented from acting. So he had to tell Miko these were suspects of really major crimes. The alternative was not to act.

Now it is a bit strange that Shojo had no agents who were unknown to the paladins. One would think a devious old pro would have known that he would have to have some help in fooling the paladins. Still, paladins can be very loyal servants and they are easy to fool...

Speculation:


I'd like to think that he entrusted Eugene to relay that info to Miko and Eugene "accidentally" forgot because he wanted to see his son get beat within an inch of his life.
Absolutely not. Miko had no known knowledge that Eugene existed, and there was no need to involve him.

[akumadaimyo]

Cause Miko is in hell. Nuff said. Seriously didn't you pay attention? She worships different gods and thus is in a different afterlife. They did say something like that before when explaining it all.

[Raging Gene Ray]

You are being sent a thousand miles beyond your borders to perform a mission of state. You don't think the crime is a misdemeanor. And if you are told it is to invite them to come to the city for a medal, you start asking questions, questions Shojo didn't want to answer.
....
....
So he had to tell Miko these were suspects of really major crimes.


That's not what I'm implying at all. Shojo could have said "They blew a hole in reality," and Miko would have understood it would be to try them for crimes against reality.

I'm saying he should have appended that with "they blew up one of the gates while trying to take it back from a lich named Xykon." Miko would still do her job dutifully. And would still not ask questions, dutifully.

While I'm at it, how would telling the Sapphire Guard to go after Xykon violate the oath? I thought it said "don't interfere with another gate, unless there's a direct threat to it." I'm pretty sure that if someone tries to take over one gate and gets away, that constitutes a direct threat to all other gates.[/quote]



Speculation:

Absolutely not. Miko had no known knowledge that Eugene existed, and there was no need to involve him.


There was no need to involve a lot of things and people. I just love the image of: every character from Miko to Haley to Redcloak's Niece to Therkla to a Redeemed Belkar all living in harmony. Learning to be all peaceful and happy like. Except for Eugene, who is constantly having the everloving crap kicked out of him by everyone else (which is exactly why everyone else gets along so well). and this looked like a good way to rationalize it, along with tying up what has always seemed like a very loose end.

[Samurai Jill]

seriously wouldn't that be cool?? :miko: :roy:

They're both lawful good afterall......
Apart from the reasons listed, I suspect because Roy isn't terribly interested in visiting Miko- He seemed completely indifferent to the news of her death. I don't know how Miko feels about it, but I also suspect she has her own problems to deal with.


If Roy wanted, would Miko appear in the "Inn of Endless One Night Stands"? Could he *poof* her in if he wished? Or would she just be an illusion appearing & acting however he wanted to have Miko act ?

:miko: "Oh, Roy; I never thought of things like that. You've opened my eyes! Let me give you a bath before you take me , my mighty northern hero!"

:roy: "Now THIS is heaven!"
What he said.
Seriously though, Roy's too Lawful to get a little action on the side while Celia's alive.


Miko was unrepentant. She never even figured out, up until Soon told her in the moment before her death, that she even had anything to be repentant about.
Ah- but that's the point- When Soon told her, she didn't contradict him, which at least tentatively suggests that she accepted she was at fault. I mean, she was genuinely surprised that the other paladins were willing to accompany her, which also suggests a fair amount of unvoiced guilt.
I'm also not terribly hopeful about Miko making it into Celestia, but you have to bear in mind she spent almost all of her adult life risking that life in defence of the innocent. Yes, she Fell, but the criteria for paladinhood are a lot stricter than for just being Lawful Good. Again, my money's on Arcadia, but I can't completely rule out the optimistic scenario. *sigh*

[Scion_of_Darkness]

There might have been extenuating circumstances. I strongly suspect that Miko had a lot more going on in her head than most people do. I am referring to mental problems. She might have worked herself into a position where she literally was incapable of admitting she was wrong, not out of pride or stubbornness, but out of a deep psychological need to be right. This mental damage was probably caused by Belkar's continual psychological attacks, the animosity of the group she was forced to travel with, and the "betrayal" of someone she greatly respected.

[evileeyore]

Why haven't they met? Because neither of them want to.

Exactly.

Also, I'd imagine that the moment that Miko's Archon said "true enlightenment is found at the top" Miko would be climbing until she finally achieved true enlightenment.

So she'll be at it for awhile.

[Koshiro]

Shojo wasn't exactly innocent. He knew the Order had accidentally destroyed the gate due to Elan's random stupidity while trying to noble stand against an evil lich. Yet he kept this vital piece of information from Miko. He could have told her that and she would have still gone off to arrest the Order, and would have probably been less stabby.
Shojo was a manipulative schemer by nature. Not telling anybody more than "they needed to know" was more than a convenience - it was a habit. Which ultimately led to his death, too.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Miko's idea that she was special, this came directly from Shojo when she first arrived in AC to train as a Paladin rather then directly from her. The fact that she kept insisting that she was special was probably the result of her already fragile mental state finally snapping thanks to Shojo's lies coming undone (several other people have said that being a Paladin while trying to follow the 12 Gods will was her defining feature as far as she was concerned).

[Assassin89]

If Miko does appear, I would like to see a scene similar to Belkar's angel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) until Miko admits that she is not special.

[amuletts]

In D&D it is easier to slide down from good than to climb back up again. I think Miko, at time of death, would be LN, neutral in this instance meaning 'failed good.' Why not evil given how she arguably performed evil acts? Because she was trying to do the right thing, it's just that her perspective was skewed.

Windstriker, being a paladinic mount, has to be LG, doesn't he? Although 'visiting' may not be put down to him being on a different plane, but simply that he is not dead yet. He would probably go to serve another Paladin.

However, I think the main reason Roy hasn't met Miko is that he doesn't want to see her. The after-life is some kind of paradise for him, and he didn't like Miko that much.

[Raging Gene Ray]

However, I think the main reason Roy hasn't met Miko is that he doesn't want to see her. The after-life is some kind of paradise for him, and he didn't like Miko that much.

He did allude to possibly feeling something that resembles sympathy for Miko when he was fighting Xykon and said something along the lines of "In a world controlled by you, there will be no room for idiotic bards, or greedy rogues (lists a couple of other character-types that match up with specific individuals in the comic), or hell, even raging narcissistic paladins."

He might already have met her before he went up to train with Horace. He won't mention the meeting until around the time the next book comes out and will probably say something like "yeah, it happened in one of the bonus strips. Sure did tie up a lot of loose ends. But lets not talk about it now...except maybe in the bonus strips for the next book."

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Miko needs to make an appearance of some sort before the end of the story. Why? Because death in the Order of the Stick universe is not the end of any character, except death by old age.

Let's face it, Miko was a high level character, and even a level 2ish guard was going to be brought back, although on Belkar's dime. While that guy is done and gone, we have Green Cloak Guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) strolling through the revolving door, Eugene coming back four times, and Roy waiting on the rest of the team to get it together enough to get Roy back on the ground.

Rich has created a world were death is not the end of the line. So, put aside your personal animosity against Miko, and tell me why she can't come back in OotSverse?

Miko also deserves a bit more screen time in the afterlife, if only to show us that she is indeed staying dead. Blue Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) got a line, Bandana Paladin and Born Under the sign of Pig Guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) both got post death appearances. Miko's non-appearance in the strip actually says pretty loudly to me that she still has a role to play, although it may not be until the end of the entire story... Sort of like Valera's return to save Conan.

Miko's non-appearance since her death draws attention to her more than it eliminates her. Miko the Blue, Miko the Beige, and finally Miko the White? Could happen!

[FujinAkari]

No, the main reason is

War & XP's Miko shifted to LN when she killed Shojo, according to Rich.

[Linkavitch]

Okay, first of all, they died around the same time, right? So Miko was stuck in the really long line, and Roy got into heaven right away. Plus, Roy stayed on the first level of the afterlife, and I can't see any reason why Miko would even stay there. (she doesn't seem to be the type to like free sex and booze, now does she?) So she would go to the highest level of afterlife she could, as fast as she could. (possibly to try to meet the gods and get them to explain to her why they made her not a paladin anymore.) Plus, there's no indication that she's even in the LG afterlife, anyway. But, maybe in the next few strips, we'll see her in the background, visiting Windstriker, or something. Nothing major, though, I think.

[Captain Six]

In D&D it is easier to slide down from good than to climb back up again.

Perhaps morally. But in D&D Good and Evil are more Psudo-elements than moral stances. As far as alignment is concerned it is just as easy to fall from Good as it is to fall from Evil. Of course I'm not the DM for OotS so I can't say I hold any final word.

As for my thoughts on Miko showing up again. First of all she did have a very dramatic conclusion with a cliffhanger on where her morality lies when it's all said and done. Unless she pops up to do something extremely plot relevant with appropriate character development from what's happened to her it's just going to cheapen her finish. I liked Miko, she was an interesting character with a good run. I laughed, I cried, I slapped my forehead and feared what she was going to get into next.

Second of all if I wrote this story I would be so sick of Miko and discussions of Miko and the nagging thought that even a cameo would make this forum explode with threads about Miko would keep me very, very hesitant to include her in the story ever again.

[hamishspence]

depends on the book- Fiendish codex 2 makes "removing the taint of evil acts" quite difficult.

It effectively weakens the linking between personality and afterlife destination- you can be genuninely Good and Repentant, but if you haven't atoned, down you go.

Even interpreted as Intentional Murder, in absence of LE alignment that alone wouldn't move Miko to Nine Hells. More acts though, and she would be in trouble.

[Samurai Jill]

Miko shifted to LN when she killed Shojo, according to Rich.
Could you furnish the exact quote to that effect, and page number?

[PandaCthulhu]

Could you furnish the exact quote to that effect, and page number?

The only quote I can find is
War & XP's spoiler:
page 186 (between strips 422 and 423), Rich says "I thought Miko should be unique as someone who falls from grace, but never gets the opportunity to redeem herself".This may or may not be the quote that FujinAkari was referring to.

[hamishspence]

"she pushed and pushed at the boundaries of what it meant to be Lawful Good and a Paladin, until finally she broke through" between 400 and 401.

but in which direction?

[Texas Jedi]

"she pushed and pushed at the boundaries of what it meant to be Lawful Good and a Paladin, until finally she broke through" between 400 and 401.

but in which direction?

Well she broke in both directions it could be argued. She broke the law by killing the sovreign of the city without a trial. That would put her doing a chaotic act.

That and she killed an innocent man who did nothing wrong. Yes that man was manipulative and had lied to the order to further his agenda. The only problem was his agenda wasn't evil and he did the best he could with the tools he had. There was no justification for Miko murdering him at all. That was an evil act.

[hamishspence]

Miko being miko, claimed she was "executing him for crimes" And was wrong. Still there is a case to be made that it was manslaughter rather than second-degree murder.

[CaptainIreland]

Rich has created a world were death is not the end of the line. So, put aside your personal animosity against Miko, and tell me why she can't come back in OotSverse?

In the main story (the online strips), which named character has come back? Xykon.

Unless my memory fails me, that's it.

And I'm putting money down that Roy is never raised.


Miko also deserves a bit more screen time in the afterlife, if only to show us that she is indeed staying dead. Blue Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) got a line, Bandana Paladin and Born Under the sign of Pig Guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) both got post death appearances.

Merely for jokes. Miko is too important to be a throwaway.


Miko's non-appearance in the strip actually says pretty loudly to me that she still has a role to play

I think her part in this story is over, and that's why she hasn't reappeared. She had a whole book devoted to her essentially. She was the villain of that book. I think any more from Miko would be overdoing it (and I like her, but I like her as a literary device whose time has passed).

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd agree that it was chaotic. Given her IC knowledge, I wouldn't class it as evil (as she pointed out, they couldn't risk Shojo fixing another trial, and keeping him alive would have incresed the chances of him getting information to Xykon). I wouldn't even class it as manslaughter due to Shojo bringing it on himself by lying to the Paladins while cooperating with someone who was clearly evil (admittedly, I hate liars, so I'm bias against Shojo).

[hamishspence]

Pretending to be senile isn't exactly a crime, and Shojo was breaking an Oath, not The Law. Hinjo is perfectly happy to co-operate with Belkar once he's accepted a plea bargain.

and as a judge- shojo could corrupt the system- as a defendant- would be harder. Miko's claim that he had corrupted all the laws was unfounded- if you're going to act on claim system is irretrievably corrupted, you need more evidence.

[Tempest Fennac]

She did have reason to think the Order was working for Xykon based on what happened when she met him, though. Also, I'd say that lying to people who ware willing to risk their lives for you because it's easier for you is a gross betrayal in itself.

[hamishspence]

Lying is in Vile Darkness "not automatically evil but very, very risky"

Its a lot easier to believe "lying for the good of others" can be done regularly by a CG person than "murder for the good of others"

[Tempest Fennac]

Looking at things the Saphire Guard had done, I can't help thinking that Shojo could have been responsible for authourizing alot of murders for the supposedly greater good as well.

[hamishspence]

depending on your views, SoD, especially as it was involving eliminating everyone, men, women, and children, in that village, may actually fulfil this definition.

Hence the "do the Twelve gods get to override the normal Falling rules?" questions.

[Tempest Fennac]

That's what I was thinking as well (the chances are that if Miko was right, they wouldn't have been bothered about her killing Shojo).

[hamishspence]

depends whether you go with "all villains must get a trial" as a requirement for Good or not.

even when normal trials aren't practical, characters like the Three Musketeers give the villain a not quite so normal trial, at least telling them what they are accused of, and presenting their evidence.

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to think it depends on the circunstances. If Xykon wasn't less then 2 days away, a trial would have been much more practical then it was under the circunstances. (As far as the Linear Guild went, executing them, and preferably chopping up their corpses to make it easier for monsters to eat them would have been much more rational then handing them over to the guards, especially considering how Sabine had escaped.)

[hamishspence]

Sometimes the rational thing to do isn't the moral thing to do.

And some of the philosophers who say that are at least willing to face that dichonomy, and don't say "whatever's best for the group is moral" or "No necessary act can be immoral"- The Prince repeatedly used the word "evil" for some of the things a leader does to protect country.

[chibibar]

but intent vs action is pretty complicated.

I mean if I feel that I am better than everyone else and should listen to me (even if I am totally wrong) and FORCE people to listen (like Miko) did, how is that good?

Miko commit one know evil act (killing Shojo, we know it is evil since committing an evil act cause a paladin to fall) but all this time she thinks she was doing good the WHOLE time. If she continue to live (after escaping the prison) who knows how many more evil acts would she commit? killing Hinjo? is it evil? killing Roy?

She may not have her paladin powers, but she is still pretty powerful.

Granted, we are talking "what if" after Shojo, so she might end up in LG heaven after all (a single act can't change alignment right? with exception of course) but how many people are in LG 1st level heaven? how many people/souls are there? since the beginning of time? chances of meeting Roy is like finding a four leaf clover in a desert. It is possible but not probable.

[hamishspence]

there is a theory that it was Extremely Chaotic and Good, and shifted her to Neutral Good, and that, not evil act, is why she lost powers.

Not my favourite theory.

[Tempest Fennac]

I see handing highly dangerous people who have an Evil Outsider with DR as a a friend over to low level guards who wouldn't stand a chance againt them as being much more evil then just killing them to be honest. (I often take an "Ends justify means" approach to this sort of thing.)

[hamishspence]

Antimagic cells.

They were also acting on the assumption that killing them would result in somebody Resurrecting them. Perhaps overthinking things, since assumption was ill founded, but at least they tried.

And as it stands, they don't know the LG is out there, since they never saw them escape.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I see handing highly dangerous people who have an Evil Outsider with DR as a a friend over to low level guards who wouldn't stand a chance againt them as being much more evil then just killing them to be honest. (I often take an "Ends justify means" approach to this sort of thing.)

I agree...only Elan and co. didn't hand the Linear Guild over to the guards due to moral problems with killing them. They were somehow certain there was a cleric with a True Resurrection spell handy and that Sabine would just get poofed back to the Underworld. I would have at least taken the chance that it would hinder Nale or deliver him to some deity for judgment.

By the way...I wonder how Roy or other members of the Order would react if they walked in on Shojo telling Nale something along the lines of "Yeah, I'm keeping the Order of the Stick busy. It's easy to fool them, you know how adventuring parties are. Dangle a hook and they bite. Now can you forget about them for a few minutes and take care of the job I asked you to do?"

[hamishspence]

only reason miko thought of the Order they way they think of the Linear Guild, is because of Xykon's little hint "oh, Greenpommel and his buddies. man, did they make a mess"

She had decided they were in league with Xykon on very little evidence, then concluded from Shojo's working with them that he was in league with Xykon too, because they were.

which is the only crime attributed to shojo that she seems to consider worthy of a death sentence.

[Texas Jedi]

Granted, we are talking "what if" after Shojo, so she might end up in LG heaven after all (a single act can't change alignment right? with exception of course) but how many people are in LG 1st level heaven? how many people/souls are there? since the beginning of time? chances of meeting Roy is like finding a four leaf clover in a desert. It is possible but not probable.


Roy was about to have his alignment thrown into the neutral file by one chaotic evil act. The only reason it didn't happen was that he knew what he did was wrong and tried to fix things.

Miko did the same thing only she didn't see what she did was wrong. Therefore she never atoned and had to change alignments. [Edit] I would also consider what she did much more heinous than leaving a trusted party member to fates.

I know that it has been said on the thread that one act can't remove a lifetime of good works. I say that it can, if that one act was horrible enough.

[hamishspence]

Same here, and can support comment by pointing out 2nd ed Players Handbook explicitly states this.

3rd to 3.5 is less clear, mostly the "exceptions exist" bit to alignment changing in DMG- example given was Evil to Good. Good to Evil might be a slightly more common exception.

Fiendish Codex 2 has 2 really evil acts being enough to send a still LG character to Nine Hells, even in absence of an alignment change.

[chiasaur11]

I agree...only Elan and co. didn't hand the Linear Guild over to the guards due to moral problems with killing them. They were somehow certain there was a cleric with a True Resurrection spell handy and that Sabine would just get poofed back to the Underworld. I would have at least taken the chance that it would hinder Nale or deliver him to some deity for judgment.

By the way...I wonder how Roy or other members of the Order would react if they walked in on Shojo telling Nale something along the lines of "Yeah, I'm keeping the Order of the Stick busy. It's easy to fool them, you know how adventuring parties are. Dangle a hook and they bite. Now can you forget about them for a few minutes and take care of the job I asked you to do?"

Probably with reactions along the line of "What's going on here?" followed by serious questioning, and, if necessary, restraining the old guy.

Seriously, a million better solutions than stabbing, especially with Hinjo there for backup.

[Deploy]

Oh no, good intentions saves no one. She fell, she fell hard. What I'm saying is that she accepted that and started to recover her general alignment, not her paladinhood. In a story this cinematic I don't think being torn in half would damage rationality that much, as odd as that is to say it would be a very out of place bit of realism. When it comes to alignment I see it Good and Evil as equal and opposite as opposed to Evil being a corrupting force. She committed evil acts yes, but if one evil act dramatically changes her whole alignment then one good act would change it right back. Maybe it's a rare moment of idealism for me but I would like it if the tale of Miko ended with her learning something through it all. It seems right for this kind of story.

I don't see how she could learn anything, she didn't learn anything in life, do you think just because she's dead she figures everything out. I figure she is still following the letter of the law and not its intent.

[chibibar]

I don't see how she could learn anything, she didn't learn anything in life, do you think just because she's dead she figures everything out. I figure she is still following the letter of the law and not its intent.

Even Soon gave her the last chance of redemption and repent, Miko didn't acknowledge that she did ANYTHING wrong... not one bit. She is not going to think any different after death.

Also like most gaming (if this were my session), if you died, you only can redeem while you are alive. so unless someone is willing to spend a lot of gold and losing 1 level to rez Miko, Miko cannot be redeemed.

[Samurai Jill]

Yeah, but she didn't contradict Soon either, and, as I mentioned beforehand, was genuinely surprised the other paladins were willing to accompany her.

"she pushed and pushed at the boundaries of what it meant to be Lawful Good and a Paladin, until finally she broke through" between 400 and 401.
That means she committed an act incompatible with Lawful Good. Not the same as wholesale alignment shift.

[David Argall]

While I'm at it, how would telling the Sapphire Guard to go after Xykon violate the oath? I thought it said "don't interfere with another gate, unless there's a direct threat to it." I'm pretty sure that if someone tries to take over one gate and gets away, that constitutes a direct threat to all other gates.
One might think so, but we are told directly the opposite. The paladins have taken an oath to only play with their own gate, and they were going to stick to that. We might think we see wiggle room, but by the logic of the story, that is a delusion on our part. Shojo could scheme, or do nothing. Trying to be at all honest with his paladins was just not going to work.



only reason miko thought of the Order they way they think of the Linear Guild, is because of Xykon's little hint "oh, Greenpommel and his buddies. man, did they make a mess"

Well, not the only reason, and likely not even the most important. The simple fact that Roy had "lied" and claimed to destroy Xykon, who was now right there alive and healthy [well, in a manner of speaking...] probably was more important.
Miko had a host of "hints" that would have been enough in a spy novel she was the heroine of. Sadly for her, this is not a spy novel, and she was just a supporting character.



I'd agree that it was chaotic. Given her IC knowledge, I wouldn't class it as evil
A reasonably innocent man died. Quite simply that is evil. Miko did not have adequate reason for killing him. That makes the act evil. She acted with knowledge of what she was doing and full intent to do it. That is murder one, not manslaughter or other lesser charge.

[Captain Six]

I don't see how she could learn anything, she didn't learn anything in life, do you think just because she's dead she figures everything out. I figure she is still following the letter of the law and not its intent.

To me it sounded like she learned something as she died, if you didn't get that there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.

[The Hop Goblin]

To me it sounded like she learned something as she died, if you didn't get that there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.

Whether or not she learned, or was simply in a state of physical shock and such aside...

Learning does not denote Atonement. She did not admit fault, or give any sort of apology over what she had done, and the betrayal that she comitted to her Nation, her order, and her gods.

Again, "Oh... okay," does not an atonement make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac
I'd agree that it was chaotic. Given her IC knowledge, I wouldn't class it as evil

A reasonably innocent man died. Quite simply that is evil. Miko did not have adequate reason for killing him. That makes the act evil. She acted with knowledge of what she was doing and full intent to do it. That is murder one, not manslaughter or other lesser charge.

Adequate reason aside, alignment does not take into account either Intentions or 'IC knowledge'. If the act is evil, then then the character has comitted an evil act.

If XYZ Character believes that a this cleric of Pelor is evil, and slays him as such - then it is as evil an act as if XYZ Character was a blackguard and slew an obviously good cleric of Pelor.

That's just how alignment works, people. Wishing your favorite character didn't do something stupid, and trying to color the circumstances in a different light won't change the fact that your favorite character did something stupid.

[Rayzin]

I'm not sure but i think Miko's situation is similar to Roy's dad. I think she's probably not let into any of the afterlifes. I can actually see Miko sitting outside those gates and seeing Roy there. Then blame him.

[Kish]

Miko did not make an oath to do something she has to do before she can go to the afterlife. Whatever afterlife she's in, she's not an oathspirit.

[EndlessWrath]

seriously wouldn't that be cool?? :miko: :roy:

They're both lawful good afterall......

You forget that Roy is in heaven not hell

[Rayzin]

Miko did not make an oath to do something she has to do before she can go to the afterlife. Whatever afterlife she's in, she's not an oathspirit.
Would the paladin oath work, she didn't protect the gates after all?

[Flame of Anor]

If Roy wanted, would Miko appear in the "Inn of Endless One Night Stands"? Could he *poof* her in if he wished? Or would she just be an illusion appearing & acting however he wanted to have Miko act ?

:miko: "Oh, Roy; I never thought of things like that. You've opened my eyes! Let me give you a bath before you take me , my mighty northern hero!"

:roy: "Now THIS is heaven!"

Rule 34. No exceptions. :smalltongue:

[Kranden]

What makes you think Miko went to the lawful good heaven?

I'm pretty sure they have a sign on the gate that says

"No fallen Paladins"

Roy didn't exactly get in that easily, he had to go through a screening process and his bad actions which weren't all that terrible were nothing compared to what Miko did when she cut down Shojo in cold blood.

Now I'm not saying she went to an evil afterlife, but it seems if anywhere she would be sent to some kind of limbo or more neutral afterlife to say the least.
She did what she thought was righteous even though it was an evil act. She still dedicated her life to serving good, even if she went the wrong way about it.

[Samurai Jill]

The criteria for paladinhood are a lot stricter than for simply being LG.

[Zevox]

The criteria for paladinhood are a lot stricter than for simply being LG.
Nevertheless, Kranden is correct that Roy received a lot of grief over transgressions that were far more minor than Miko's murder of Shojo. If abandoning Elan was bad enough that his examiner would consider tossing him into the "True Neutral" category, how much worse do you think Miko is going to have it when she has to fess up to cutting down her Lord and Liege in cold blood? Especially when nothing she did later in her life even remotely constitutes an effort to make up for this error, such as Roy's return to save Elan and subsequent instances of saving his life did? And especially when you consider that she needed to be told by Soon that it was, in fact, an error to begin with?

Zevox

[open_sketchbook]

Course, it seems possible that grilling people about their sins would be an obvious element to Celestia, considering "guilt is a major weapon in good's arsenal". Making people think about what they did wrong and come to terms with it might be an important part of the process, and in fact may allow for redemption beyond death. I doubt there was any real dispute over Roy getting in to Celestia; they just wanted to let him know what to work on.

[jamroar]

Course, it seems possible that grilling people about their sins would be an obvious element to Celestia, considering "guilt is a major weapon in good's arsenal". Making people think about what they did wrong and come to terms with it might be an important part of the process, and in fact may allow for redemption beyond death. I doubt there was any real dispute over Roy getting in to Celestia; they just wanted to let him know what to work on.

If it was an exercise in reflection, it didn't seem to work with Roy then, seeing that he just threw out poor excuses for his misdeeds, except for the one that was really inexcusable.

[Samurai Jill]

Nevertheless, Kranden is correct that Roy received a lot of grief over transgressions that were far more minor than Miko's murder of Shojo.
This is actually something I have trouble with understanding. Evil acts are explicitly defined as 'hurting, killing, or oppressing others (insert exceptions here which amount to 90% of typical adventurer activities)'. Roy did not hurt Elan. Roy did not oppress Elan. Roy did not kill Elan. Roy did not deliberately place Elan in a situation where he was sure to be hurt, killed, or oppressed (at least, any more so than 'adventuring' would be in the first place.) Roy did not even, through inaction, permit Elan to be hurt, killed or oppressed where intervention would be trivial.

I don't see what the Deva's case was here aside from 'Elan is cute'. Rescuing him was Good, sure, but failure to do so would not be Evil by any reasonable standard.

...If abandoning Elan was bad enough that his examiner would consider tossing him into the "True Neutral" category, how much worse do you think Miko is going to have it when she has to fess up to cutting down her Lord and Liege in cold blood? Especially when nothing she did later in her life even remotely constitutes an effort to make up for this error, such as Roy's return to save Elan and subsequent instances of saving his life did?
Actually, I would consider risking- and giving- one's life to uphold a sworn oath in defence of creation to be an at least plausibly Good act. Yes, she screwed up, but only- as usual- because Rich bent over backwards to present her with the most staggering improbably-misleading circumstances imaginable beforehand. (I swear, if Miko had even a minute fraction of Elan's luck, she and the OOTS could've been bestest buddies. It's quite annoying, really.)

You also have to bear in mind that Miko spent all of her adult life adhering to significantly higher moral and ethical standards than Roy was ever required to- by a hair's breadth, perhaps, but adhered nonetheless, even if she stumbled at the end. (I think Rich said as much in War and XPs.)

Again, I'm not terribly confident about her gaining admission, but ultimately this question is impossible to address with any certainty because the parameters of the alignment system are hopelessly underdefined. IS a single Evil act sufficient to bump you from LG to LN? Over what timeframe do you 'average the effects' of individual acts? To what extent does Miko's sacrifice count as a Good act, if it counts at all? We shouldn't have to argue over all this- the rules of the game should be constructed so that the answer is transparent, objective, and unambiguous. Until that is actually possible, protracted discussion on the subject is simply an exercise in futility.

[Raging Gene Ray]

(I swear, if Miko had even a minute fraction of Elan's luck, she and the OOTS could've been bestest buddies. It's quite annoying, really.)

...if Roy had decided to scream something about how they were defending the gates, then it would have been an averted crisis, much like when Haley used her cathartic confession to thwart Nale's attempts to screw with Elan's head. Incidentally, "Cathartic Confession" would make a great name for an emo-goth band.[/quote]



You also have to bear in mind that Miko spent all of her adult life adhering to significantly higher moral and ethical standards than Roy was ever required to- by a hair's breadth, perhaps, but adhered nonetheless, even if she stumbled at the end. (I think Rich said as much in War and XPs.)

That quote seems like it's open to interpretation. Fujin said earlier that she interpreted it to mean the opposite.

Speculation:

I personally like the idea of Miko being allowed into heaven, but her own guilt makes it a personal hell until she sorts out her psychological issues. It might be a good chance to bring back that "Celestia is Shaped by Personal Belief" thing mentioned earlier, with the possibility of more Fever Dream style surrealism.

[HealthKit]

Wow, people are still discussing this?
Well I guess if we're still debating the subject, that could mean Miko's still arguing with her Bureaucratic Deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html).

[David Argall]

This is actually something I have trouble with understanding. Evil acts are explicitly defined as 'hurting, killing, or oppressing others (insert exceptions here which amount to 90% of typical adventurer activities)'. Roy did not hurt Elan.
I don't see what the Deva's case was here aside from 'Elan is cute'. Rescuing him was Good, sure, but failure to do so would not be Evil by any reasonable standard.


Our writer seems to have this idea that loyalty to your friends is a really major virtue instead of a minor one. Thus we have the party rescuing the vile Belkar instead of letting justice be administered.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd class Roy abandoning Elan as more Neutral then Chaotic Evil. Just going back to Shojo, another reason why I'm completely unsympathetic towards him is that he knew that Miko was unstable, but he failed to do anything to try and help her. I'm guessing it's because he on;y ever really saw her as a weapon rather then really caring about her (until, of course, the instability and his convoluted web of lies resulted in her thinking he was working with Xykon).

[Lord Seth]

The only purpose that such a meeting would serve would be fanservice to the most ardent Miko fans, but the rest of the story would not be likely to advance. Miko has no additional info about the other gates, so she can't advance the plot, and Roy was watching the final battle, so he probably knows exactly what happened and who destroyed the gate.I would've rather seen Roy meet Miko (or see Miko again, period) than us wasting all that time with Therkla.

[Samurai Jill]

Seconded.

Eh... it wasn't so bad in terms of comic relief while it lasted, it's just the ending didn't fit so well.

[jamroar]

Our writer seems to have this idea that loyalty to your friends is a really major virtue instead of a minor one. Thus we have the party rescuing the vile Belkar instead of letting justice be administered.

It's meta D&D, I think. Party members are somewhat obliged to stick together against the NPCs and DM PCs for the sake of party cohesiveness.

Also, I get the impression that
1. He's sticking up for Vaarsuvius more than Belkar. If V. had not intervened, he likely would not have gotten involved himself.

2. He (and most of the OOTS) are just spoiling for any excuse for rematch no. 2 with Miko after their previous humiliating defeat. It's not that they are loyal to Belkar so much as they detest Miko.

[chibibar]

I'd class Roy abandoning Elan as more Neutral then Chaotic Evil. Just going back to Shojo, another reason why I'm completely unsympathetic towards him is that he knew that Miko was unstable, but he failed to do anything to try and help her. I'm guessing it's because he on;y ever really saw her as a weapon rather then really caring about her (until, of course, the instability and his convoluted web of lies resulted in her thinking he was working with Xykon).

But Shojo might be thinking like Roy. Miko can be pretty powerful and use her as a tool of good.

same like Roy keeping Belkar under control for the betterment of the world. (i.e. using Belkar to fight evil)

[rxmd]

Maybe you just don't automatically meet everybody else just because they happen to have the same alignment.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think he was using her as a tool for that purpose, which was the problem when she had issues due to her upbringing.

[hamishspence]

To quote Oscar Wilde "If I had the choice between betraying my friend and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country."

So, we have another notable person making a similar case.

[Zevox]

Course, it seems possible that grilling people about their sins would be an obvious element to Celestia, considering "guilt is a major weapon in good's arsenal". Making people think about what they did wrong and come to terms with it might be an important part of the process, and in fact may allow for redemption beyond death. I doubt there was any real dispute over Roy getting in to Celestia; they just wanted to let him know what to work on.
I do believe there's a quote from Roy's examination that should answer this one perfectly:


(#488) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html)
I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then whether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now. As it stands, there is a lot to be said for learning your lesson before you died rather than trying to backpedal now.
Seems to me that one would completely invalidate any argument that repenting only during the examination is going to get a person into Celestia. And it would be another major obstacle in Miko's way, considering we know she never learned any lesson from her mistakes during her life.


This is actually something I have trouble with understanding. Evil acts are explicitly defined as 'hurting, killing, or oppressing others (insert exceptions here which amount to 90% of typical adventurer activities)'. Roy did not hurt Elan. Roy did not oppress Elan. Roy did not kill Elan. Roy did not deliberately place Elan in a situation where he was sure to be hurt, killed, or oppressed (at least, any more so than 'adventuring' would be in the first place.) Roy did not even, through inaction, permit Elan to be hurt, killed or oppressed where intervention would be trivial.

I don't see what the Deva's case was here aside from 'Elan is cute'. Rescuing him was Good, sure, but failure to do so would not be Evil by any reasonable standard.
At the very least, the act of callously leaving one of his friends and subordinates in a potentially dangerous situation would be a very heavily chaotic act. Roy was responsible for Elan at the time by virtue of being the leader of the party he was adventuring with, thus by abandoning Elan, he was abandoning a duty he took up when he agreed to lead the party on that adventure.

As for evil, slightly more dubious, but given the bandits had already attacked the Order with lethal weapons, it seems reasonable to expect that there was a good chance of Elan being harmed or killed by them, particularly given his general stupidity and tendency to do things that would cause people to want to hurt him. Not to mention, as David Argall said, Rich seems to imply that loyalty to friends is a high-value good quality in the OotS world.


Actually, I would consider risking- and giving- one's life to uphold a sworn oath in defence of creation to be an at least plausibly Good act.
I wouldn't. As Soon told Miko, what she did was fulfill her duty, nothing more. And then only technically. That's lawful as hell, but not inherently good. Especially when you consider that she did it only because she was still under the delusion that the Gods had some special plan for her that she absolutely had to fulfill.


Yes, she screwed up, but only- as usual- because Rich bent over backwards to present her with the most staggering improbably-misleading circumstances imaginable beforehand. (I swear, if Miko had even a minute fraction of Elan's luck, she and the OOTS could've been bestest buddies. It's quite annoying, really.)
Come now, don't tell me you're going to blame the author for Miko's failings? If we're going to discuss a fictional character like this, her failings are none but her own. Otherwise you just say "the author did it" for everything, because that's always why things happen in a work of fiction.

Anyway, I disagree that the situations Miko was presented with were the sole cause of the friction between herself and the Order. Recall that Hinjo mentioned that even the other Paladins didn't like her. Miko was not a likable person - she was pretty much a textbook example of "how not to play a Paladin." Even had she met the Order in the best of circumstances, friction between them would be inevitable. Especially with Belkar in the group.


You also have to bear in mind that Miko spent all of her adult life adhering to significantly higher moral and ethical standards than Roy was ever required to- by a hair's breadth, perhaps, but adhered nonetheless, even if she stumbled at the end. (I think Rich said as much in War and XPs.)
Perhaps, yet she also spent her adult life as, to quote Roy, an "overbearing self-righteous bitch." Hence why not even the other Paladins could stand her. She was by no means a model person, and probably would've had at least a similar amount of trouble getting into to Celestia to Roy even had she not killed Shojo.


Again, I'm not terribly confident about her gaining admission, but ultimately this question is impossible to address with any certainty because the parameters of the alignment system are hopelessly underdefined. IS a single Evil act sufficient to bump you from LG to LN? Over what timeframe do you 'average the effects' of individual acts? To what extent does Miko's sacrifice count as a Good act, if it counts at all? We shouldn't have to argue over all this- the rules of the game should be constructed so that the answer is transparent, objective, and unambiguous. Until that is actually possible, protracted discussion on the subject is simply an exercise in futility.
The problem there is that you're trying to objectify something that is fundamentally subjective. The only way we could get a sufficiently defined system to avoid all argument on the matter is to have someone actually list and precisely define how every imaginable act affects your alignment. Yeah, not a realistic goal.

But incidentally, within the OotS universe, it should be pretty clear that a single act can change your alignment, even radically. Again, refer to the Deva mentioning she would toss Roy from LG to TN for a single act. Whether you agree with that or not, it is apparently how this particular universe functions.

Zevox

[Njord]

because miko is rotting in Hell, while Roy - who was actually a good guy - went to heaven.

simples as that.

[hamishspence]

Doubt it. If your actual alignment is LN, one murder won't drop you into the Nine Hells.

This is only a sourcebook, but even as the most severe assessor of afterlives in 3.5- ever, using it, Miko still has a very good chance of avoiding the Nine Hells, unless her other post-Fall acts were really bad.

Said sourcebook is Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Is the only one to give specific examples of Lawful acts (How good these examples are is a matter of opinion)

[V Junior]

Or, becomes a patron saint of 'paladins' that believe the ends justify the means. I can see a tyrannical military state that borders on evil for misguided ideals upholding St. Miko the Vengeful.

I can see that too, HG. 'St. Miko the Vengeful'. Heh.

[hamishspence]

St Miko of the Knife :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

I can see that too, HG. 'St. Miko the Vengeful'. Heh.
That would probably be an appropriate fate for her. Except for the fact that no one among the Paladins (or the living in general, for that matter) seems to care about her, and thus she'll probably be forgotten after a while. Oh well, it's not like that isn't an appropriate fate for her either.

Zevox

[HealthKit]

I would've rather seen Roy meet Miko (or see Miko again, period) than us wasting all that time with Therkla.

I wish he'd meet Miko just so that we can get it over with and move on. :smallsigh:

[Tempest Fennac]

To be fair, I often wonder how Roy can be classed as LG based on his tendancy to look down on NPCs, as well as his tendancy to lie to friends and hotel staff because it benefits him (I know those aren't at all evil, but they don't strike me as Lawful or Good).

[Raging Gene Ray]

For what it's worth: I agree with both Healthkit and Tempest. So yeah...you two aren't alone.

The most telling thing about Roy's attitude is that when he defended Belkar, he spoke of loyalty and "he hasn't done anything to us," rather than disapproving of the guard's murder or Belkar's assault on Miko with something like "Yes, he's evil, but he still should get a trial." Or "Yes, but we can use him as a tool...maybe force him into service to make up for the evil he's done."

At first I thought it was excusable and they were just assuming Miko was using unnecessary force...but then I reread the comic and they were there at the murder scene...so, yeah. QED and all that.

If Miko is ever going to want to make peace with the Order, she will have to see them fighting for Great Justice (R) on the side of Good. Which means:

Speculation:

...she would have to actually see one of them in action, and the only one who has been actively fighting for Azure City is Haley. If she had access to a scrying pool, she could have watched the Resistance and been trying to get in contact with Haley to apologize and offer her services as a Deathless Bodyguard in her (Haley's) service.

Even if she learns of Roy's innocence, the fact that his first reaction to her mental breakdown was :"well, if you had been a good little female lead and put out for the protagonist of the story, this wouldn't have happened," would probably still make her not want to speak to him.

[Zevox]

To be fair, I often wonder how Roy can be classed as LG based on his tendancy to look down on NPCs, as well as his tendancy to lie to friends and hotel staff because it benefits him (I know those aren't at all evil, but they don't strike me as Lawful or Good).
I'm fairly certain that the minor amount of arrogance that causes him to look down on NPCs is pretty far from enough to shift his alignment away from Law or Good - actually, it seems to me personally that arrogance is a trait at least slightly more common among lawful characters than neutral or chaotic ones.

As for the lying, didn't the Deva that examined him cover that? Her comment about how he veers towards chaos in executing his duties and all that?

Zevox

[Tempest Fennac]

I know she covered that. I was just saying that I don;t see how she could say he was trying to be lawful when he was doing that (I tend to class discrimination as mildly to incredibly evil depending on how extreme it is as well).

[Raging Gene Ray]

I was just saying that I don;t see how she could say he was trying to be lawful when he was doing that.

I think it was he was trying to be Lawful (Reforge his family sword to honor the Greenhilt (except for Eugene) legacy and fight for Great Justice (R)), but used chaotic means (There's GP and XP in them thar hills! So, c'mon and help me!)

Similar to Miko enforcing lawful ends (Make sure Belkar never kills again and avenge the NPC guard!) with Chaotic means (I can't give him the chance to break out of jail again).

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think she would have fallen for killing Belkar in the throne room?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Not unless Hinjo would have fallen for killing Redcloak.

They were both trying to avenge their city and their fallen allies and their opponents had proven themselves capable of escaping from jail.

BTW, I know I didn't exactly answer your question. This is because I don't know the exact intricacies of what it takes to fall as a paladin in Rich's universe and I don't want to open up yet another can of worms.

[hamishspence]

Lying on the ground, no weapon in hand. Belkar at least thought it might be enough, maybe because of the motive for doing so. Still, Belkar has been known to get things wrong.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with RGR here (especially since it was Belkar's fault he was in that position anyway).

[hamishspence]

the big question is- does game, and novels, follow this? I seem to remember a paladin spending a thousand years as a ghost for doing the practical thing and killing the cowardly Dark Lord in his sleep.

That could have been also because his actions kicked off the very thing he wanted to prevent- the sack of the city.

[Lord Seth]

Unlike probably most people here, I'm not a particularly avid D&D player (really haven't played since second edition, and only did it for a month or two then), so can someone explain how the Dungeons & Dragons afterlife thing is supposed to work and how much Order of the Stick is based on it anyway? Or give me a link to a place that explains it?

[David Argall]

I get the impression that
1. He's sticking up for Vaarsuvius more than Belkar. If V. had not intervened, he likely would not have gotten involved himself.
Possibly, but once Roy enters the discussion, it is as full protector of Belkar



2. He (and most of the OOTS) are just spoiling for any excuse for rematch no. 2 with Miko after their previous humiliating defeat. It's not that they are loyal to Belkar so much as they detest Miko.
Which hardly qualifies as a wonderful defense. At best, it substitutes one unacceptable motive for another unacceptable motive. But Roy's words are very big about loyalty to the team being the ultimate factor.

[Raging Gene Ray]

seriously wouldn't that be cool?? :miko: :roy:

They're both lawful good afterall......

And those two lines set off a five page thread...was this whole thread just a test to see how much debate the mere mention of Miko would spark?


But Roy's words are very big about loyalty to the team being the ultimate factor.

Of course, Roy then goes against Belkar's wishes by having him slapped with an MoJ and applauds Haley "taking him down a peg" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0525.html) when she suggests Belkar might wind up dead if he keeps up his attitude.

[Texas Jedi]

Unlike probably most people here, I'm not a particularly avid D&D player (really haven't played since second edition, and only did it for a month or two then), so can someone explain how the Dungeons & Dragons afterlife thing is supposed to work and how much Order of the Stick is based on it anyway? Or give me a link to a place that explains it?


The Order of the Stick is loosely based on the rules of DnD. These are based on the official Wizards of the Sword Coast based or Core Books. The afterlife is split into different planes (think different diminsions) that are based on the different alignments. Each alignment gets a corresponding plane to match it. That way anybody of Lawful Good will go to the Lawful Good plane after they die.

Celestia is the Lawful Good plane that is more influenced by Good than Law. There are 9 planes that match the different alignments. These alignments are Lawful Good (Celestia), Neutral Good (Elysium), Chaotic Good (Elven Plane {Forgot the Name}), Chaotic Neutral (Limbo), Chaotic Evil (Abyss), Neutral Evil (Hades), Lawful Evil (Nine Hells), Lawful Neutral (Mechanus), and Neutral (Outlands).

There are also I think 8 other planes that are mixed in that are a combination of the different alignments. They aren't as pure to their base as the above 9 planes.

I could go into further detail but I don't know if this answers your question or not.

[Lord Seth]

The Order of the Stick is loosely based on the rules of DnD. These are based on the official Wizards of the Sword Coast based or Core Books. The afterlife is split into different planes (think different diminsions) that are based on the different alignments. Each alignment gets a corresponding plane to match it. That way anybody of Lawful Good will go to the Lawful Good plane after they die.

Celestia is the Lawful Good plane that is more influenced by Good than Law. There are 9 planes that match the different alignments. These alignments are Lawful Good (Celestia), Neutral Good (Elysium), Chaotic Good (Elven Plane {Forgot the Name}), Chaotic Neutral (Limbo), Chaotic Evil (Abyss), Neutral Evil (Hades), Lawful Evil (Nine Hells), Lawful Neutral (Mechanus), and Neutral (Outlands).

There are also I think 8 other planes that are mixed in that are a combination of the different alignments. They aren't as pure to their base as the above 9 planes.

I could go into further detail but I don't know if this answers your question or not.Yeah, that's pretty good. Is there any particular sourcebook that goes into decent detail about them?

[Ridureyu]

If Roy and Miko do meet, I would expect Miko attempting to kill Roy in the afterlife

This.

And then she would try to kill the gods. She's just stubborn, self-righteous, and enough ot an idiot to try it.

[Texas Jedi]

Yeah, that's pretty good. Is there any particular sourcebook that goes into decent detail about them?

I got all of my information from the Manual of the Planes.

They cover the prime material plane (everything in this diminsion), the elemental planes (air, earth, fire, water), the energy planes (positive {were healing spells come from}, negative {were inflict spells come from}), the transient planes (ethereal, shadow, and astral), and the outer planes (the alignement based planes.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I got all of my information from the Manual of the Planes.


Don't forget the near infinite number of Demiplanes to be made up at the discretion of the DM/author. There is no mention of a pre-processing plane where Celestials observe the Material Plane and Oathspirits and assorted other locked-outs stay, but that didn't stop Rich from making one.

[Texas Jedi]

Don't forget the near infinite number of Demiplanes to be made up at the discretion of the DM/author. There is no mention of a pre-processing plane where Celestials observe the Material Plane and Oathspirits and assorted other locked-outs stay, but that didn't stop Rich from making one.

I know I just didn't want to overwhelm him with my nerdy knowledge all at once. :smallredface:

[Samurai Jill]

...if Roy had decided to scream something about how they were defending the gates, then it would have been an averted crisis, much like when Haley used her cathartic confession...
Eh... I dunno. I suspect that Miko kind-of 'snapped internally' by then.

Our writer seems to have this idea that loyalty to your friends is a really major virtue instead of a minor one. Thus we have the party rescuing the vile Belkar instead of letting justice be administered.
I don't think loyalty, per se, is strictly a Good quality at all, just Lawful.

Just going back to Shojo, another reason why I'm completely unsympathetic towards him is that he knew that Miko was unstable, but he failed to do anything to try and help her. I'm guessing it's because he on;y ever really saw her as a weapon rather then really caring about her (until, of course, the instability and his convoluted web of lies resulted in her thinking he was working with Xykon).
This is a complicated issue to untangle. It's so complicated, in fact, that I'm going to spoiler things for brevity's sake.
The first thing to realise is that no-one was further entangled in Shojo's web of lies than Shojo himself- his possible 'angles of attack' to any problem were severely constrained by the necessity of covering his own tracks. What keeps this from being a purely selfish decision is that he did manage to keep the city running on a more-or-less even keel, and that he did have to make sacrifices- of time of effort, of any close relationships- in order to keep it up.

I agree that his treatment of Miko was pretty rough, since he seems to have been primarily responsible for sending her on 'long missions in foreign countries that keep her away from home for months at a time'. I'd be particularly annoyed if this was solely because (as Hinjo suggests) the other paladins found her annoying- Sending her away would only be a short-term solution at best that makes the long-term problem worse. However, it's also possible she was uniquely suited for the toughest missions, in which case Shojo's means-to-the-end thinking still applies ...For whatever that's worth.

The other problem is that it's difficult to assess the precise degree of affection Shojo really had for Miko. Rich has finally come out and said that Miko regarded Shojo as a father-figure- but was the sentiment reciprocal? Was Miko a daughter-figure to Shojo? -If she was, would this have made Shojo more or less likely to tell her what she needed to be told? Would his affection have made him more blind to her faults, more afraid of destroying their relationship?
Is any of that an excuse?
I think that Miko may have had a, gradual, subconscious awareness of all this- Miko mentions things 'not having made sense' for years- perhaps since Shojo's survived assassination and subsequent deception?
Perhaps she suspected, but repressed the suspicion, that she was being deliberately kept at arm's length, kept away from the places and people she loved, subjected to constant loneliness and danger for reasons she couldn't acknowledge because her sense of loyalty wouldn't allow her to articulate them?
It seems particularly bizarre that Miko was made the highest-ranking paladin of the guard and then kept as far away from actual subordinates as humanly possible.
I'm not saying that Miko's inherent personality defects and poor choices didn't contribute to the problem, but, as usual, the deck was stacked against her. Maybe she clung to her delusions of grandeur like a life-raft, because what's the realistic assessment here- "Hooray, my master is crazy for no reason and I can look forward to a lifetime spent on quasi-nonsensical missions defending a country I hardly even get to see until I finally run into an encounter with a CR I can't handle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html) and die horribly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)?"

But what was Shojo supposed to do? Take Miko aside and have a frank and heartwarming mentor-to-student, father/daughter-surrogate chat? When he's pretending to be insane? ...On the other hand, this hadn't prevented him doing exactly that for Hinjo in War and XPs, and it's not like faking senility ever stopped him from being entirely cogent and lucid when it came to issues of substance. (All he has to do, apparently, is toss in the catchphrase 'mr. scruffy' every now and then- Cripes, he must be surrounded by morons.)

Yeah ...I've changed my mind, Shojo was an ass.

And it would be another major obstacle in Miko's way, considering we know she never learned any lesson from her mistakes during her life.
For the umpteenth time, we don't "know" anything of the sort. There is at least tentative evidence to suggest the contrary.
(Further response spoilered.)

At the very least, the act of callously leaving one of his friends and subordinates in a potentially dangerous situation would be a very heavily chaotic act.
Oh, probably. -But that wasn't the Deva's case.

As for evil, slightly more dubious, but given the bandits had already attacked the Order with lethal weapons, it seems reasonable to expect that there was a good chance of Elan being harmed or killed by them...
Again, irrelevant. Roy is not morally responsible for other people's actions, and there was nothing he could do to trivially stop that happening.

I wouldn't. As Soon told Miko, what she did was fulfill her duty, nothing more. And then only technically. That's lawful as hell, but not inherently good.
By that logic, because Roy had a 'duty' to go back and rescue Elan, it wasn't a Good act either.
...Wouldn't you say?

Come now, don't tell me you're going to blame the author for Miko's failings?
Of course I am. He wrote the character!
But more specifically, he stacks the deck against her at every possible opportunity in order to further plot requirements. She's like the anti-Elan- a designated punching bag for negatively-serendipitous circumstances. Of course they're not the sole cause of Miko's failures- they're just the most prevalent.

Perhaps, yet she also spent her adult life as, to quote Roy, an "overbearing self-righteous bitch."
Again, you've been happily excusing Roy of similar faults- and Miko, in all fairness, is genuinely socially naive.

The problem there is that you're trying to objectify something that is fundamentally subjective.
Then why are you even discussing the point! There's nothing you can say on a subject that's fundamentally subjective: 'I think X'. 'But I think Y'. How do you rule out one and include the other is there are no objective criteria to apply between the two? That'd be the complete extent of useful conversation, right there.
Besides, whatever morality may be in the real world(tm), in D&D morality IS objective. (I may also reserve the right to disagree with he Deva (or the author) on particular points which I don't think really accord with the D&D alignment descriptions.)

Yeah, not a realistic goal.
Yeah, I beg to differ. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95858)


And those two lines set off a five page thread...was this whole thread just a test to see how much debate the mere mention of Miko would spark?
Yeah. My personal theory?-
*looks sideways*
It's Rich in disguise.

There's something else that I've forgotten to mention.. but I've forgotten what.

[hamishspence]

Planes, afeterlives, etc- sources are as follows:

DMG 3.5
Manual of the planes (goes into much more detail)
Planar Handbook (more general info, details on some planar cities)
Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss
Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells- goes into alignment and afterlife in some detail- in this, it stresses your acts, not your alignment, determine afterlife destination for the Lawful.
It also covers Obesiant acts (very Lawful ones)

Complete Divine- covers afterlife, souls, and the fact that petitioners do not in fact make up the majority of deceased souls on the planes.

Also covers which undead have souls and which don't, and whether the "malign intelligence" in charge of body has access to memories of soul.

so, there is a lot of info out there.

[Kranden]

I think Miko's interview might have gone something like tihs
:miko: Step aside I am the righteous paladin Miko here to claim my rightful place in the afterlife I was destined to be in.

:confused: Uhh... I don't see that happening ever.

:miko: You are obviously an illusion sent by demons to stop me SLASH SLASH SLASH!

[Zevox]

For the umpteenth time, we don't "know" anything of the sort. There is at least tentative evidence to suggest the contrary.
We know for certain that she never knew she had so much made an error until the moment before her death. We have no evidence whatsoever from that moment which would suggest she learned anything from being told this - she died far too quickly, with her only response after being told that she had never acknowledged she could be wrong being to ask about Windstriker. How on earth could you argue we have evidence she learned anything given that?


Oh, probably. -But that wasn't the Deva's case.
Was it? She brings up that he abandoned Elan. She doesn't explicitly classify it as evil or chaotic, just brings up the circumstance and asks "what if Elan had died?" To be honest, based on her willingness to move Roy to TN from the act, I'd say she probably considered it both chaotic and evil - but that's merely a best guess based on her words.


Again, irrelevant. Roy is not morally responsible for other people's actions, and there was nothing he could do to trivially stop that happening.
The Deva begs to differ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). That was her entire rationale for why Roy's association with Belkar was a problem - so long as he was under Roy's command, Roy was morally responsible for his actions. Again, like it or not, that appears to be how the OotS world works.

And in any event, Roy was being held responsible for abandoning Elan, which was his action, not anyone else's. And what do you mean there was nothing he could do? As soon as he returned to save Elan, he succeeded in freeing him, along with the rest of group - clearly there was plenty he could do.


By that logic, because Roy had a 'duty' to go back and rescue Elan, it wasn't a Good act either.
...Wouldn't you say?
Perhaps, although it would seem to me personally there is a difference between saving a person's life (good, and in this case also lawful) and upholding an oath (lawful, with the potential to also be good - or neutral or evil for that matter - depending on the circumstances). But in any case you'll note that the Deva doesn't indicate that it was. She indicates that the fact that Roy learned his lesson before he died was the redeeming quality, whatever the alignment one may ascribe to that. And then compliments him on again saving Elan later by donning the gender-switching belt, an entirely separate act which would likely be considered both lawful (fulfilling a duty to his friend/employee) and good (saving someone's life).


Again, you've been happily excusing Roy of similar faults- and Miko, in all fairness, is genuinely socially naive.
Roy's faults hardly compare to Miko's. He can be snarky at times, and a bit arrogant when it comes to dealing with minor NPCs, but that's the extent of it. Miko, meanwhile, expected everyone around her to conform to her worldview, and was convinced she was infallible. Being "socially naive" hardly excuses such behavior - especially after her fall, when she had literally had divine intervention telling her she was wrong.


Then why are you even discussing the point! There's nothing you can say on a subject that's fundamentally subjective: 'I think X'. 'But I think Y'. How do you rule out one and include the other is there are no objective criteria to apply between the two? That'd be the complete extent of useful conversation, right there.
Because discussing differing opinions on subjective matters is an enjoyable way to spend one's free time. And there's always the chance of getting the person you discuss them with to at least understand, if not agree with, your point of view.

But in any event, my point was that it is impossible to fully codify an objective morality such as D&D attempts to have in a way that will fully avoid arguing over it due to the fact that, in reality, morality is subjective, and thus you will always have people who disagree with some part of the codified version of morality.


Yeah, I beg to differ. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95858)
I do believe you missed my point - I said that you would have to list every imaginable act and how it affects your alignment - i.e. premeditated murder you so many points towards evil, unintentional murder shifts you a lesser amount towards evil, saving someone's life shifts you so many towards good, saving someone's life unintentionally shifts you this lesser amount towards good, and so on for literally every imaginable action any person could possibly take. My point was that to create a list that accounts for every possible circumstance in such a way would be impossible. In your thread there, you've created a more detailed set of rules, but they're still largely generalizations, not an elaborate list of specific circumstances, and you even acknowledge in the preface that they may very well be flawed. It would certainly be possible for arguments to arise under that system, just as it is under the less-elaborate D&D system.

Also, just an observation from that thread that I find amusing, you list "Lasting liberation from certain death" as granting "grace"/good points. Since I see nothing in there making out becoming undead as evil, turning someone else into a Lich, Vampire, or other intelligent undead would be a good action under that system, since those beings are liberated from the threat of death by old age. Hell, this would also fall under another good section there - "The permanent relief of hunger, indignity, sickness or some other source of pain." - since the undead no longer experience hunger or sickness.

Zevox

[Samurai Jill]

We know for certain that she never knew she had so much made an error until the moment before her death.
No, you don't. You only know that she never said anything to that effect. Again, the fact she never contradicts Soon- and it's not like she's been shy about voicing her opinions beforehand- and was genuinely surprised that the other paladins were willing to be seen with her- suggest considerable guilt.

Was it? She brings up that he abandoned Elan. She doesn't explicitly classify it as evil or chaotic... But in any case you'll note that the Deva doesn't indicate that it was...
Actually, threatening to shift Roy to TN does mean that she considered it Evil- which, more to the point, is precisely the reason you brought up the subject in the first place.

The Deva begs to differ.
None of the bandits were under Roy's command, so I don't see how this is remotely relevant (not that I'm taking the Deva's word for gospel truth in any case.)

...Roy was being held responsible for abandoning Elan, which was his action, not anyone else's. And what do you mean there was nothing he could do? As soon as he returned to save Elan, he succeeded in freeing him, along with the rest of group - clearly there was plenty he could do.
Yes, but only at significant personal risk to himself. That makes it a Good act- but it also means that failure to do so would not be Evil. Guilt through inaction is not a reasonable verdict when you have to risk life and limb in order to act. Roy is no way, shape or form responsible for what the bandits might hypothetically do to Elan.

Perhaps, although it would seem to me personally there is a difference between saving a person's life (good, and in this case also lawful) and upholding an oath...
Nonsense- defending the gate from seizure by an unequivocally Evil hostile power who could use it to threaten the entirety of creation is an absolutely Good thing- and far, far more significant than rescuing a single numskull from possibly-peril.

Being "socially naive" hardly excuses such behavior - especially after her fall, when she had literally had divine intervention telling her she was wrong.
An entirely valid point of view, but again, this was not your argument. You were arguing that Miko was unlikable/abrasive, not that she was arrogant. Stick to the point.

...there's always the chance of getting the person you discuss them with to at least understand, if not agree with, your point of view.
Which is another way of saying you agree to disagree. It's a non-debate.

...in reality, morality is subjective...
D&D IS NOT REALITY!

In your thread there, you've created a more detailed set of rules, but they're still largely generalizations, not an elaborate list of specific circumstances...
They don't need to be. Any graced/evil act can be broken down in terms of how it impacts the fundamental values of those concerned. -At least, I think so.


Since I see nothing in there making out becoming undead as evil, turning someone else into a Lich, Vampire, or other intelligent undead would be a good action under that system, since those beings are liberated from the threat of death by old age.
Well, first of all, the undead are dead- the process kills you. But let's pretend I'll let that slide for now:

Becoming undead certainly does involve irreparable physical mutilation (since you can't reproduce and lose many sensory faculties,) and (presumably) goes against the wishes of the subject- giving Evil 5 vs. Good 3 (5 - 2 for no consent). Therefore an Evil act- even Means to the End wouldn't cover it.

Now, if you transformed yourself into a Lich (presumably with your own consent,) then that would be Evil 2 (5 - 2 for self only, -1 for consent) vs. Good 5. Means to the End would prevent this from being an Evil act, if the decision reflected a pre-existing Belief- but since you're not benefiting others, not a Graced act either. Transforming another person into a Lich- with their express consent- would be Evil 4 (5 - 1 for consent) vs Good 5, and therefore, not Evil (but also not Graced, since the difference is too small to allow for commensurate sacrifice.)

See! See?!

[The Minx]

I think Miko's interview might have gone something like tihs
:miko: Step aside I am the righteous paladin Miko here to claim my rightful place in the afterlife I was destined to be in.

:confused: Uhh... I don't see that happening ever.

:miko: You are obviously an illusion sent by demons to stop me SLASH SLASH SLASH!

Hee hee. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, she did accept Soon's judgement in the end. :smallsmile:

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to see layalty as more of a Good trait then a Lawful one (I'd class Roy helping Elan as Neutral due to Elan being a friend, though). That is a really good analysis of Miko's thought processes, Samurai Jill. I guess Shojo could have had a talk with Miko based on the fact that he could still appear to be serious on occasion (I don't know if you've ever heard a song by The Cars called Drive, but I tend to think that suits Miko well).

[The Hop Goblin]

I tend to see layalty as more of a Good trait then a Lawful one.

I'm assuming you mean lOyalty. Loyalty is the hallmark of the lawful, not the good. Sure, good people can be loyal to good causes; but evil individuals can be loyal to an evil deity, evil nation, evil party, etc.

[Tempest Fennac]

(Sorry about the typo.) Would you say Elan is less loyal then Roy based on his alignment? I know evel people can be loyal as well, but I still see it more as Good.

[evileeyore]

(Sorry about the typo.) Would you say Elan is less loyal then Roy based on his alignment? I know evel people can be loyal as well, but I still see it more as Good.

Loyalty has nothing to do with Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I tend to see loyalty as more of a Good trait...I'd class Roy helping Elan as Neutral due to Elan being a friend, though.

What exactly is the difference between a friend and someone you are loyal to? I'm going to have to agree with evileeyore; all alignments are capable of cozying up to particular individuals and wanting to listen to/protect them.

In Miko's case, I'd say she was more loyal to an ideal than any individual. She projected ideals onto individuals (the rest of the Sapphire Guard, Shojo), but she never really got to know individuals because she found the ideology of the Sapphire Guard to be a good surrogate family and her obsession with it drove individuals away from her. In some sort of vicious cycle, she became ostracized because she was too idealistic and she became more idealistic because she was ostracized.

[pjackson]

To be fair, I often wonder how Roy can be classed as LG based on his tendancy to look down on NPCs, as well as his tendancy to lie to friends and hotel staff because it benefits him (I know those aren't at all evil, but they don't strike me as Lawful or Good).

They aren't but you do not have to be perfectly Lawful or perfectly Good to be Lawful Good. You just need to be more Lawful than Chaotic and more Good than Evil. You do not even have to be perfectly Lawful and perfectly Good to be a Paladin.
Alignment does not determine a character's behaviour. It is rather a measure of it.

Anyway Roy had repented of lying to his friends, and it is a fact of the OoTS universe that PC's are generally superior to NPC's.

Miko was Good enough to be a Paladin though probably rather boderline, until she committed an evil act. That was enough for her to fall, but one act alone can not change your alignment. Depending on how close to the borderline she was it might have been enough to push her to LN. However, the bureaucracy Deva's for Celestia are being of Pure Good as well as Pure Law, and so will be as merciful and forgiving for her as they were for Roy. Miko was undoubtably trying to be LG and the balance of her mind was disturbed at the time she commited that evil act. So I can't see why they wouldn't admit her. Of course, she wouldn't get the fast pass to the special area reserved for paladin on the second layer (that might be 2e but it seesm to exist in the OoTS universe). She would have to live on the first layer until she was ready to move up. That would still be the first layer of heaven so would be a very pleasant place for her.

Possibly Miko asking for Roy's forgiveness might be part of the process of he moving to the next level, but there is no rush and I can't see it happening quickly. Maybe after a century or two.

[Tempest Fennac]

That explanation of loyalty makes mosre sense then mine (I'm sorry that I didn't make that much sense). I'm guessing the 12 Gods saw Miko's act as evil based on how it was in their best interests for Shojo's plans to succeed.

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 2 described loyalty to someone you don't actually respect (or who has forfeited your respect) as very Lawful. Durkons surprisingly strong loyalty to his party in Origin of PCs would fit this.

To a Chaotic, especially a CE, leader would have to command a lot of respect for them be strongly loyal, turn down offers of betrayal, obey even when leader orders you to give up something you value, etc.

also "aiding a superior to your own detriment" - maybe, taking blame for them, is a signature Lawful trait.

[Gitman00]

Perhaps, although it would seem to me personally there is a difference between saving a person's life (good, and in this case also lawful) and upholding an oath (lawful, with the potential to also be good - or neutral or evil for that matter - depending on the circumstances). But in any case you'll note that the Deva doesn't indicate that it was. She indicates that the fact that Roy learned his lesson before he died was the redeeming quality, whatever the alignment one may ascribe to that. And then compliments him on again saving Elan later by donning the gender-switching belt, an entirely separate act which would likely be considered both lawful (fulfilling a duty to his friend/employee) and good (saving someone's life).


Nonsense- defending the gate from seizure by an unequivocally Evil hostile power who could use it to threaten the entirety of creation is an absolutely Good thing- and far, far more significant than rescuing a single numskull from possibly-peril.

What amuses me about this particular exchange is that both of you are pretty good at spin. You have both read the comics in question, so you don't need to describe what happened. The reason for explaining them this way is to strengthen your own point of view.

The thing is, it's a pointless exercise to try to figure out which act was objectively more good, and which act is more lawful, because both of you are making the judgment based on your own moral outlook. I would point out, however, that as it relates to the comic, Zevox has the stronger case, as he is mostly looking at it from the standpoint of the moral system we've been shown in-comic.


There's nothing you can say on a subject that's fundamentally subjective: 'I think X'. 'But I think Y'. How do you rule out one and include the other if there are no objective criteria to apply between the two? That'd be the complete extent of useful conversation, right there.


(not that I'm taking the Deva's word for gospel truth in any case)

Seems to me, if there are objective criteria to apply against two opinions about a comic, the word of an agent of pure Law and Good speaking from within the comic's framework is about as objective as you can get. :smallwink:

I don't think either of you denies that Roy's rescue of Elan was both Lawful and Good, as was Miko's life of service to the Sapphire Guard. So really, why beat yourselves over the head trying to decide which was more Lawful or Good?

Miko was a paladin. That means she was Lawful Good... at least until her fall. Word Of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) says she was treading the line for a while. I do think it's telling that Soon says that he and the paladins are fading to the Celestial Realm, and will escort Miko to "her destination." He doesn't say what that destination is. It seems to me, if she was going with them, he'd just say, "We will escort you as well," or possibly, "We will escort you there as well."


Again, the fact she never contradicts Soon- and it's not like she's been shy about voicing her opinions beforehand- and was genuinely surprised that the other paladins were willing to be seen with her- suggest considerable guilt.

I think you may be reading more into this than the author intended. Miko's story is one of blindness, tragedy, and immense irony. I don't see guilt here, so much as resignation, and one final disappointment. Her expression in panel 4 could mean many things. Hope seems most likely to me. Maybe, as you suggest, it is surprise that paladins will be seen with her. Even that, though, doesn't necessarily translate to guilt. If you recall, other paladins didn't like associating with her when she was alive, so the idea that they'd go out of their way to take her home could be surprising without indicating feelings of guilt. But this is all academic. Her words are as self-centered as always. "Does that mean I get to be a paladin again?"

Miko is very much a tragic figure, and in true Shakespearean style, she dies with one last ironic twist of the knife. She says, "I can live with that," with her dying breath. Maybe I'm the one who's overinterpreting now, but I see the word "live" here revealing Miko's last delusion: She thinks she's going to live.

Rich as much as said that with Miko he wanted to explore what happens when a fallen hero neither reedems herself nor becomes a villain. I think he's accomplished that, and Miko's story is at an end.

[pjackson]

Miko was a paladin. That means she was Lawful Good... at least until her fall. Word Of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) says she was treading the line for a while. I do think it's telling that Soon says that he and the paladins are fading to the Celestial Realm, and will escort Miko to "her destination." He doesn't say what that destination is. It seems to me, if she was going with them, he'd just say, "We will escort you as well," or possibly, "We will escort you there as well."


Yes, but at least one of the D&D books mentions a special region of the LG heaven set aside for Paladins. IIRC it was on the second level of the clestial mountain and was in the 2e manual of the planes.

[Samurai Jill]

I tend to see layalty as more of a Good trait then a Lawful one (I'd class Roy helping Elan as Neutral due to Elan being a friend, though).
It depends on what your loyal to. Loyalty to the mafia, for instance, usually means killing or intimidating people. Loyalty to Belkar means dead gnomish merchants and oracles. Loyalty to Evil things generally winds up being an Evil sooner or later.

They aren't but you do not have to be perfectly Lawful or perfectly Good to be Lawful Good. You just need to be more Lawful than Chaotic and more Good than Evil. You do not even have to be perfectly Lawful and perfectly Good to be a Paladin.
Alignment does not determine a character's behaviour. It is rather a measure of it.
Precisely.


The thing is, it's a pointless exercise to try to figure out which act was objectively more good, and which act is more lawful, because both of you are making the judgment based on your own moral outlook.
I was countering the argument that Miko's decision to defend the gate was somehow non-Good merely because she was under oath to do so. An act being Lawful does not prevent it being Good.

Seems to me, if there are objective criteria to apply against two opinions about a comic, the word of an agent of pure Law and Good speaking from within the comic's framework is about as objective as you can get.
If you're just talking about somehow predicting where Miko is going to wind up within the strip- well, I long ago gave up seriously trying to predict Rich's moves in advance.
So best of luck with that.

I do think it's telling that Soon says that he and the paladins are fading to the Celestial Realm, and will escort Miko to "her destination." He doesn't say what that destination is. It seems to me, if she was going with them, he'd just say, "We will escort you as well," or possibly, "We will escort you there as well."
True, but on the other hand, if your prior alignment determined your destination straight-away, there'd be no point to a Deva interview.

I don't see guilt here, so much as resignation, and one final disappointment.
But disappointment is not denial. That's the key here- She was told that she did wrong, and she accepted it. Whereas, beforehand, she was denying that she'd even fallen- the mere fact that she was hoping to be a paladin 'again' has to be taken as a sign of progress.
And as it happens, I do think you're being... implausibly uncharitable in your interpretation.

[Samurai Jill]

He did allude to possibly feeling something that resembles sympathy for Miko when he was fighting Xykon and said something along the lines of "In a world controlled by you, there will be no room for idiotic bards, or greedy rogues (lists a couple of other character-types that match up with specific individuals in the comic), or hell, even raging narcissistic paladins."
THAAAT'S what I forgot to mention! About. Mention about. -anyway:

The minor problem with this is that he A. mentions Belkar in the same breath and B. fails to mention Julia, whom I presume he's at least slightly fond of. In the event that he does still feel something for Miko, it's pretty tough to make head or tails of his prior treatment of her, eagerness to jump into a new relationship, and complete indifference to her death. Since he included Belkar but not Julia, it's possible this is more a list of 'people he feels some direct obligationy toward'... not that this really helps, since Miko was never under his command, and neither is Celia.

It's all very bizarre and conflicted.

[Raging Gene Ray]

He mentioned Belkar would likely survive in Xykon's world. He more than likely sees Belkar as some sort of evil thing that belongs on Team Evil, but is his (Roy's) unfortunate responsibility to guide towards constructive ends. Celia got a mention because Rich was planning on bringing up the pendant again. Julia gets no mention because she was out of the story for awhile, and was out of the author's, the fans' and, therefore, Roy's minds.

He never was in a relationship with Miko. He had decided not to pursue it just as she admitted it was possible, and told her in the most emotionally devastating way. Seriously, did he expect her to react any differently than she did?

At any rate, I thought Roy's "Huh," indicated he was thinking carefully and weighing whether it would be worth the effort to try to track her down and get her on the side of stopping Xykon. What I liked most was Haley's looking shocked, showing that fighting for Azure City may have given her some sympathy for Miko and a desire to talk to her, calm her down, and show her that even a criminal rogue can have a spark of that idealism that paladins strive for.



Rich as much as said that with Miko he wanted to explore what happens when a fallen hero neither reedems herself nor becomes a villain. I think he's accomplished that, and Miko's story is at an end.

Miko could still, theoretically, redeem herself in a different way: living the life of a commoner and learning to appreciate the day-to-day pleasures that make life worth living and protecting rather than searching for a philosophical ideal and eschewing everything mundane as decadent.

Miko doesn't have to come back...although it might resolve a lot of the arguments that come up on these forums.

(Speculation) I do like the image of Miko making that transformation, and being recruited to fight Redcloak/Xykon/Sabine's masters and then actively refusing paladinhood.
:miko: NO! Being a paladin caused me to miss out on so much.
Lien: You know, you can still enjoy life and be a paladin.
:miko: Maybe you can...but not me.
:durkon: Quit yer whinin' an' take yer atonement spell like an adult!
:miko: I don't wanna!

[Samurai Jill]

...I think you may be conflating Roy's state of mind, Rich's state of mind, and Rich's plot consistency a bit more than can be justified. No, Roy was never in a reciprocal 'relationship' with Miko, but I was talking about feelings or the absence thereof. (Also, if Roy were planning to track Miko down, I would've expected a little more monologue to that effect. I mean, Roy's been perfectly happy to elaborate on most of his other thought processes even when no-one was listening. And as it turns out, he's made no effort to track Miko down whatsoever.)

In summary, I don't really know what to make of it. There's just no consistent evidence that Roy feels anything but antipathy for Miko, but I can't simply ignore the reference there. Gaah!

[Raging Gene Ray]

And as it turns out, he's made no effort to track Miko down whatsoever.


Maybe he decided not to after a long mental debate that will be brought up later. Maybe he had Eugene scry on her and then decided. Maybe he tracked her down, but didn't mention it because that's going to be in the bonus strips of the next book.

Or maybe his 'Huh' was just wondering how the Oracle could make such a stretch by saying Belkar caused Miko's death.

If you can't come up with a single, solid theory, come up with a whole bunch of not-so-solid ones and throw them in a blender.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought the Oracle's explanation of how Belkar caused Miko's death made sense. I assumed Roy wasn't bothered about Miko due to being more concerned with training with his grandfather after he stopped scrying on his friends.

[Samurai Jill]

Yeah, but he could have dispatched an archon to get her address (or whatever the celestial equivalent is) in the meantime. I mean, there's just no sign at all that he even gives a crap.

[David Argall]

I thought the Oracle's explanation of how Belkar caused Miko's death made sense.

While Belkar had been a cause of Miko's death, Belkar ashed "Will I get to be...", not "Have I been..." and his big contribution to the lass' demise had already happened at that point. So logically, the death of Miko was not a valid success for the prophecy.

[Tempest Fennac]

That's a good point. To be fair, did anyone at the time suspect that Miko would go onto kill Shojo before dying in the castle explosion (I started reading through the archives at around 399, and I didn't expect Miko to die like that).

[factotum]

Yeah, but he could have dispatched an archon to get her address (or whatever the celestial equivalent is) in the meantime. I mean, there's just no sign at all that he even gives a crap.

I don't see why he SHOULD care. We can assume that he saw what happened on the battlefield after he died, because both he and his father were portrayed as looking down on the scene from the cloud in strip #484, so he would have seen that Miko's intervention essentially allowed Xykon to escape. Roy has never been shown as being particularly willing to forgive the errors of others (something he gets from his Dad, I suspect), so he's not going to want to see Miko again.

[Samurai Jill]

...he would have seen that Miko's intervention essentially allowed Xykon to escape.
I'm not aware that scrying from the clouds allows you to see through walls and ceilings.
But if it did, I suspect he would also have noticed Miko was killed in the process.

But no, I suppose I don't see any particularly compelling reason for why Roy should/would care. (Not that this stopped Haley, for reasons which are... also unclear to me.) *sigh*

Which, in any case, goes back to the first point I made in the thread- Miko and Roy haven't met up because neither particularly cares to try. Or it looks that way.

[Tempest Fennac]

Roy and Eugene were probably watching whast the rest of the Order was doing when the Gate was destroyed, so they wouldn't be likely to have noticed Miko's death.

[Samurai Jill]

Miko is very much a tragic figure, and in true Shakespearean style, she dies with one last ironic twist of the knife. She says, "I can live with that," with her dying breath. Maybe I'm the one who's overinterpreting now, but I see the word "live" here revealing Miko's last delusion: She thinks she's going to live.
Oh- just one other tangential remark. Miko does not actually fulfill the technical requirements for a tragic protagonist. A tragic hero/villain is defined by a pivotal early choice in the story which knowingly sets them down a path that leads inevitably to their ruin, which at the same time is an unavoidable expression of their inner character.
There is no single choice on Miko's part that set her down the road to ruin from early in the story- the choice, if there was one, was one Shojo made by sending her after the Order, and it was other characters (Roy, Belkar, the Order, Xykon/Redcloak and Shojo again) diverting her down the path to ruin at every stage. Her choices in response at each point were expressions of her inner character, but she was never the ultimate instigator of the crisis in question. She's not the premeditated author of her story, but operates purely in a reactive capacity- like an angry blue billiard ball bounced around the table until she goes into the right hole.

Now, it's interesting to note that, by a similar token, Shojo is a tragic figure (and possibly a tragic hero, no less.) He is the puppet-master, driven by an ambition which is core to his being, becoming entangled by his own web of schemes until they eventually collapse upon him. (This rings particularly true when you realise his foremost 'puppet' struck the last blow.) We just don't notice it so much because events don't all wind up tidily once he exits the stage, but the essential characteristics are evident.

[Shatteredtower]

Thanks for the insights there, Samurai Jill.

(Can't believe I'd overlooked the in-comic reference for your name until yesterday...)

[evileeyore]

Roy and Eugene were probably watching whast the rest of the Order was doing when the Gate was destroyed, so they wouldn't be likely to have noticed Miko's death.

Ah, no.

have you forgotten Roy having to ask his Father to Scry for him? That Roy had no knowledge of how to look upon the mortal realm until then?

No, Roy argued with his Dad, then saw the Deva, then ascended the mountian to his Mom's house. At no time did he bother looking in on the battle, nor even look after his friends until he'd discovered it had been 3 1/2 months.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought Roy and Eugene were watching it before the hiatus started (Eugene knew the results of the battle, which he wouldn't have done if they weren'y watching it).

[Raging Gene Ray]

There might have been extenuating circumstances. She might have worked herself into a position where she literally was incapable of admitting she was wrong, not out of pride or stubbornness, but out of a deep psychological need to be right. This mental damage was probably caused by Belkar's continual psychological attacks, the animosity of the group she was forced to travel with, and the "betrayal" of someone she greatly respected.



Her choices in response at each point were expressions of her inner character, but she was never the ultimate instigator of the crisis in question. She's not the premeditated author of her story, but operates purely in a reactive capacity- like an angry blue billiard ball bounced around the table until she goes into the right hole.


Those are both partially true, but Miko should have the capacity to analyze her own nature...alter her responses...and use freewill to move away from the paths her inner nature dictates. In fact, that's probably the whole principle behind redemption. I wonder what the gods think of nature vs. nurture vs. freewill?

@Tempest Fennac: Yeah, you just reminded me that the Battle of Azure City ended with a cut to Roy and Eugene looking down and Eugene telling Roy how much he screwed it up.

[David Argall]

We can assume that he saw what happened on the battlefield after he died, because both he and his father were portrayed as looking down on the scene from the cloud in strip #484 .

In 567, Roy is surprised at hearing Miko was dead, which means he was not aware of the throne room scene, or many of the other events that happened after he died.
Roy was just one man looking over an entire city and was quite possible distracted at finding himself dead as well. He presumably missed the great majority of what we saw.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

In 567, Roy is surprised at hearing Miko was dead, which means he was not aware of the throne room scene, or many of the other events that happened after he died.
Roy was just one man looking over an entire city and was quite possible distracted at finding himself dead as well. He presumably missed the great majority of what we saw.

Indeed. Once again, we have what the individual saw, not what the audience saw. Miko saw a lot of questionable stuff when it came to the OotS, yet we the audience saw what was really going on. Now Roy is actually missing some important information because he doesn't know what Miko may have seen in the throne room, and now doesn't know Xykon's weakness.

Roy received good training from Grandpa Horace, the training from Soon Kim would have made him even stronger and better.

[Samurai Jill]

Those are both partially true, but Miko should have the capacity to analyze her own nature...alter her responses...and use freewill to move away from the paths her inner nature dictates.
Oh, this isn't an attempt to excuse Miko, it's just an analysis of her role in the story compared with established templates for a tragic heroine/villainess.