To go back [D&D 3.5/4e]

[Starsinger]

At the behest of a friend, I've been thinking about going back to 3.5, as I've completely abandoned it in favor of 4e which suits me much better. But... When I look over the klunky rules and the sixteen different armor class modifiers and stuff, this feeling of :yuk: comes over me.


Any advice on how to go back to 3.5? Any tips on how to enjoy a character as close to 4e as possible?

[Stupendous_Man]

Meh, only about four kinds of armor actually get used in game anyways.

Try playing with some ToB, i suppose?

[Oracle_Hunter]

If you have one around, start with a module. It figures out most of the bookkeeping for you, so that you can focus on re-learning the rules and recalling how the game works.

Otherwise, just play low-level games until you feel more comfortable - it's easier to corral PCs away from ludicrous combinations, so you can worry more about the story and the general rules.

[Starsinger]

If you have one around, start with a module. It figures out most of the bookkeeping for you, so that you can focus on re-learning the rules and recalling how the game works.

Otherwise, just play low-level games until you feel more comfortable - it's easier to corral PCs away from ludicrous combinations, so you can worry more about the story and the general rules.

Heh... I actually meant more returning as a player. And I didn't forget how the rules work or anything... I just have a distaste for them. But thank you, Oracle Hunter. That was very helpful, just not what I was after.

[Starbuck_II]

At the behest of a friend, I've been thinking about going back to 3.5, as I've completely abandoned it in favor of 4e which suits me much better. But... When I look over the klunky rules and the sixteen different armor class modifiers and stuff, this feeling of :yuk: comes over me.


Any advice on how to go back to 3.5? Any tips on how to enjoy a character as close to 4e as possible?

Reverse Convering your Characters thread?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4711579#post4711579

But that would just be class.

The issue you have is 3.5 has a lot of kludge: multiple armor types that you beed to have good AC, skill points based on initial Int but not retroactive, class imbalance, etc.

Think about what your ideal characer would be in 4E: then try to create it in 3rd.
The link above helps give backwards suggestions, but the options given in 4.0 are harder to get in 3.5 but not impossible.

You'll need to think outside the box (page 42 in 4.0): Something endorsed by 4.0 and hopefully any DM who you get will let you try it in 3.5.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Heh... I actually meant more returning as a player. And I didn't forget how the rules work or anything... I just have a distaste for them. But thank you, Oracle Hunter. That was very helpful, just not what I was after.

Oh! Well, I am actually wrapping up a 3.5 game as a player while DMing one, and playing in another, 4E game, so I feel your pain.

I'd say don't fight the system. You're not going to be able to find a build with as much battlefield control as even the blaster-iest 4E Warlock, so any character you make is just going to disappoint you. Roll up whatever you used to like to play, and go with it. You'll fall back into old habits soon enough, and since you have plenty of experience with the build you'll use the appropriate "lens" when looking at feats, equipment, and so forth.

Like I've said: play the game you're given, not the game you want. :smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

Heh, I've been having the exact opposite feeling. I DMed a 4e game for a little while, then a month or two later started DMing Red Hand of Doom in 3.5. I'm finding DMing in 3.5 so much more fun.

I don't think there's any way to exactly replicate a 4e character in 3.5, but a ToB fighter, a Warlock, or a Sorcerer would probably all have the same feel (limited number of abilities that you can use a lot of times). Sorcerer is probably the quickest to build - just pick your spells, pick your feats, and you're pretty much done.

- Saph

[Tequila Sunrise]

The best advice I can give is to just try to have fun and not take it too seriously. If you get into that loose hippie kind of mindset, you can still enjoy yourself. For example I recently played a session of OD&D. I found the rule set to be totally boring, arbitrary and clunky...but I had fun. I just embraced the game's absurdity and assumed from the start that my PC would die in the first dungeon, and it was kind of like being a soldier. Once I accepted my doom, everything was easier. It helped that the DM wasn't taking the game seriously either; we cracked jokes and rped with absurd abandon, and it was fun. I still prefer 4e and will never DM any previous edition but I can have a bit of fun playing them.

TS

[PurinaDragonCho]

Any advice on how to go back to 3.5? Any tips on how to enjoy a character as close to 4e as possible?

My advice is of questionable value - because I haven't played 4e and don't intend to - so this may not be helpful at all, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.

If you want to play a melee type, Book of Nine Swords is probably the way to go. If you want to play some kind of caster, I'd look at reserve feats from Complete Mage and Complete Champion. They give you abilities you can use at will, so long as you keep a certain spell prepared.

Anyway... hope you're able to enjoy it even though it isn't the system you want to play.

[newbDM]

At the behest of a friend, I've been thinking about going back to 3.5, as I've completely abandoned it in favor of 4e which suits me much better. But... When I look over the klunky rules and the sixteen different armor class modifiers and stuff, this feeling of :yuk: comes over me.


Any advice on how to go back to 3.5? Any tips on how to enjoy a character as close to 4e as possible?


I'd honestly say don't go back.

Play what you like, because I don't think you would be happy playing something you don't like.

For example, I would never be happy playing 4.0, so I have made it clear to people I used to game with, even though it meant missing out on some gaming opportunities.

If you are going to be miserable, is it worth it to you?

[hamishspence]

"which of these is the coolest game system to play?"

"whatever I select"

To misquote Pratchett :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

I'd honestly say don't go back.

Play what you like, because I don't think you would be happy playing something you don't like.

For example, I would never be happy playing 4.0, so I have made it clear to people I used to game with, even though it meant missing out on some gaming opportunities.

If you are going to be miserable, is it worth it to you?

I think it is more fairness to his friend issue. Maybe his friend lives 3.5 and since they played 4.0: it wouldbe a nice gesture to play 3.5 again with the friend.

[TempusCCK]

You need to houserule all the dumb little things. Forget the ruleslawyering and use a little common sense.

At least, this is the most commmon problems I see with 3.5, if you focus entirely on rules then the dumb things stand out. I fyou just use a little common sense, it all works much better.

[Starsinger]

I think it is more fairness to his friend issue. Maybe his friend lives 3.5 and since they played 4.0: it wouldbe a nice gesture to play 3.5 again with the friend.

This. It's this.

[bosssmiley]

At the behest of a friend, I've been thinking about going back to 3.5, as I've completely abandoned it in favor of 4e which suits me much better. But... When I look over the klunky rules and the sixteen different armor class modifiers and stuff, this feeling of :yuk: comes over me.

Any advice on how to go back to 3.5? Any tips on how to enjoy a character as close to 4e as possible?

Use the K & Frank Tome series Starsinger. Those collections iron out a lot of the kludge, cruft and downright illogical grobwaffle in the 3.X system.

During their cull of the holy cattle of D&D they: point out why <Morbo>Diplomacy does not work that way!</Morbo>
make polymorph and wish logical
show you that Law and Chaos mean precisely 0 in D&D logic
offer reasons to care about what armour you take
decouple character wealth and character power
shoot feat chains in the head and give you feats actually worth taking
make sense of the Construct and Undead types*
fix the monster class/racial HD rules
give you a version of the fighter that doesn't cry after 6th level
heck, they even make Grapple into something sane and usable! :smallcool:

* Both these types - by RAW - have a load of general stuff in them that simply doesn't suit most creatures of that type. Vampires can't be staked (immune to crits), Ghouls can't run, clockwork men never run down, Golems have no chem or plug in their ankle...

@v: Read (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453), be enlightened.

[Kaiyanwang]

Bosssmiley.. sorry but.. what do you mean with:

"show you that Law and Chaos mean precisely 0 in D&D logic"

"make sense of the Construct and Undead types"

I don't understand :smallredface:

[Tequila Sunrise]

First, Starsinger has said that she's playing not DMing 3e, so the likelihood of a boatload of house rules helping her is slim. But I'm curious about a couple of these but don't have time to dig through the mess of posts that you linked to. So if you don't mind would you care to summarize how PM and Wish are illogical, how Frank intends to compensate for decoupling wealth and power, what exactly needs to be made sense of with constructs and undead, and how he fixed the monster HD rules?


make polymorph and wish logical
decouple character wealth and character power
make sense of the Construct and Undead types*
fix the monster class/racial HD rules


TS

[Vortling]

Attitude is the number one issue here. Don't focus heavily on the system you don't like, instead focus more on the fact that you're getting together with friends to have fun. If you can come in without your dislike of the system in the forefront of your mind you'll be on your way to having fun.

That's what I do when I'm playing 4e and it's made the games tolerable.

As far as classes that feel like 4e, it really depends on which role you like out of 4e and how high a level of optimization your friends are playing.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

First, Starsinger has said that she's playing not DMing 3e, so the likelihood of a boatload of house rules helping her is slim. But I'm curious about a couple of these but don't have time to dig through the mess of posts that you linked to. So if you don't mind would you care to summarize how PM and Wish are illogical, how Frank intends to compensate for decoupling wealth and power, what exactly needs to be made sense of with constructs and undead, and how he fixed the monster HD rules?


TSWish, the problem is, doesn't do anything that's worth 25% of a level, other than a couple of uses that break the game. Polymorph is overpowered and confusing. Undead are both naturally Evil and Neutral at the same time, and the designers combined way too many abilities into the type that not all undead should have. I think the HD comment is based on their changes to ECL, which makes every monstrous race ECL=CR+1, unless it has the invisible (Awesome) template.

[Hzurr]

I'm in a similar situation. I'm dming a 4E game, but every other week or so, I'm a PC in a 3.5 game, and I find myself frustrated.

Eventually, I got over it, and one thing that I think helped was that we were using the Pathfinder Beta rules. It definately helps take care of a few issues that were problematic in 3.5, and even though I find 3.5 less flexible than 4E (Yes, you read that correctly), I find that I'm still having fun.

Until my 1st level rogue with only 9hp ran into the orc barbarian with a greataxe. Ouch.

Remember that early level characters in 3.5 are much more squishy.

I actually recommend something different than what other people have said. Don't try and play a 4E character in a 3.XE game. It's simply an exercise in frustration. They're different games (with different strengths and weaknesses), and should be played differently.

[Oslecamo]

During their cull of the holy cattle of D&D they: point out why <Morbo>Diplomacy does not work that way!</Morbo>
make polymorph and wish logical-Aka even more abuseable.
show you that Law and Chaos mean precisely 0 in D&D logic-Yet they make currencies based on both, go figure
offer reasons to care about what armour you take-No, they still give you only one optimal choice for your build, since everything in the armor is fixed
decouple character wealth and character power-Everybody has infinite scrolls of time stop and candles of invocation. Weee!
shoot feat chains in the head and give you feats actually worth takingThey also make using only one weapon usless, and if you're not a demon or undead you're royally screwed.
make sense of the Construct and Undead types*I'm a vampire! I get a bite attack and a minor bonus to one ability score! Oh, wait...
fix the monster class/racial HD rulesThey say "Eyeball everything because we're too lazy." How's that fixing?
give you a version of the fighter that doesn't cry after 6th levelOn the contraire. Now it has more reasons to cry. Everybody else has powerfull save or die. Heck, the Samurai gets auto kill 95% of the time from lv12.
heck, they even make Grapple into something sane and usable! :smallcool:No, they make it even weaker, as still as hard to use.



Here. Fixed it for you.

OP:Surely there's some crazy class or build you still didn't try out in 3.5 but you always dreamed off. Go and give it a shot.

[Kaiyanwang]

Until my 1st level rogue with only 9hp ran into the orc barbarian with a greataxe. Ouch.

Remember that early level characters in 3.5 are much more squishy.


Eheh this one of the things I like more of first levels. Or the different gamestyle at different levels. People's tastes are different :smallsmile:

[bosssmiley]

Here. Fixed cherrypicked and strawmanned it for you.

This game is fun. :smallamused:

[Morty]

I have to say, the Tome series don't look very appealing, although to be honest I haven't looked into them too much. Unless I'm overlooking something, they don't have any standard "wizard" class, which is bizzare.

[Hzurr]

Eheh this one of the things I like more of first levels. Or the different gamestyle at different levels. People's tastes are different :smallsmile:

heh, I don't mind being weak, I just don't like dieing for no other reason than one lucky roll on the part of the dm. I mean, yes, sometimes dice don't fall in your favor, but I'd prefer at least 3-4 dice to not fall in my favor before I arbitrarily die. One natural 20 = death? Not cool. Makes me feel more like a 4E minion then a hero-in-training.

[Kaiyanwang]

heh, I don't mind being weak, I just don't like dieing for no other reason than one lucky roll on the part of the dm. I mean, yes, sometimes dice don't fall in your favor, but I'd prefer at least 3-4 dice to not fall in my favor before I arbitrarily die. One natural 20 = death? Not cool. Makes me feel more like a 4E minion then a hero-in-training.

Yeah, at first level you are more or less a 4ed minion :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, as DM or player, at least in my gaming groups, I enjoyed this with tactics, stealth, and a lot of ingenuity. Add to this that a lot of low-level monster are not so smart, so if you keep the low level game semi-serious all of this can lead to a lot of fun.. :smallsmile: