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DrizztFan24
2008-11-19, 10:45 AM
What are the strengths of straight (or recurve) bow characters?

What makes them underpowered?

How can I fix it?

Seems pretty simple huh?

kamikasei
2008-11-19, 10:50 AM
You can't power attack with a bow. Power attacking with a bunch of tricks used to boost the multiplier is the standard way to deal worthwhile damage with a melee character (that, or TWFing with a source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack, which also doesn't work very well with archery). Thus, it is quite difficult to get/keep your damage output up to scratch as an archer.

Cleric archers using Zen Archery to use Wis instead of Dex are the usual "gold standard" for archery.

There's also a homebrew discipline for ToB-style archery which offsets these problems by giving you maneuvers which boost your damage.

Telonius
2008-11-19, 10:53 AM
For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Fixes:

Low damage output - Use the Scout class and Manyshot feat tree. Or, homebrew a feat that allows characters to apply part of their ranged attack bonus to damage, much the same way that Power Attack works for melee weapons. (Always baffled me why this wasn't included in the PHB).

Magic-users - Ban (or nerf) the problematic spells.

Awkward sniping rules - Not a clue.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-19, 11:13 AM
For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Fixes:

Low damage output - Use the Scout class and Manyshot feat tree. Or, homebrew a feat that allows characters to apply part of their ranged attack bonus to damage, much the same way that Power Attack works for melee weapons. (Always baffled me why this wasn't included in the PHB).

Magic-users - Ban (or nerf) the problematic spells.

Awkward sniping rules - Not a clue.

A properly optimized archer character is on par with a Barbarian in terms of Damage Output. This is due to Greater Manyshot+Skirmish+Splitting enhancement working wonders together. The other type of archer build (Totemist 20) has no problem with damage at any level, provided they build themselves right and have the right melds shaped.

Then you get into the third type of archer (Warblades with Crossbows). They're nuts in their own way.

Heliomance
2008-11-19, 11:33 AM
You can Power Attack with a bow. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

Also, The Archery Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) Go nuts.

Telonius
2008-11-19, 11:44 AM
A properly optimized archer character is on par with a Barbarian in terms of Damage Output. This is due to Greater Manyshot+Skirmish+Splitting enhancement working wonders together.

Which is why I suggested Scout and Manyshot as a fix. :smallwink:


The other type of archer build (Totemist 20) has no problem with damage at any level, provided they build themselves right and have the right melds shaped.

Then you get into the third type of archer (Warblades with Crossbows). They're nuts in their own way.

Unfortunately I don't know all that much about Incarnum classes. What are the big features of these?

(And yes, Warblades are nuts indeed!)

EDIT: Great find on the item! Hadn't heard of that one before. Definitely worth the 22,000 investment.

DrizztFan24
2008-11-19, 12:00 PM
I was thinking about my old homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74920).

I had hoped to play this in a PbP game and I wanted to check it's power levels. I had originally thought it overpowered, but then I read it yesterday and remembered i had heard issues brought up about archers.

So looking at above posts it seems like you get two ways to mean something as an archer or something about a river of excrement and a traditional native american mode of transportation and no method of propulsion.

And I cant access the wizards pages at school, so is it a FAQ or something?

EDIT: sorry about the homebrew page with no charts, i have yet to learn how to do charts.

Saph
2008-11-19, 12:00 PM
For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Wind Wall is pretty much irrelevant in actual games. I've never once seen it used effectively, and I play with some people who are pretty good with casters.

You also left out the biggest strength of archery; you don't have to move to attack. Let's compare a simple case where a meleer and an archer (each with 3 attacks) are fighting a generic Large monster with reach that also has 3 attacks.

Meleer: Moves up and eats an AoO on the way in. Attacks once. Next turn, takes a full attack from the generic monster. Total: Made 1 attack, took 4 attacks.

Archer: Full attacks the monster. Next turn, monster moves up and attacks once. Total: Made 3 attacks, took 1 attack.

I've seen this happen many times in games; the melee guy is almost dead by round 2, while the ranged characters are still putting out full attacks without a problem. This gets especially important in the late game where stronger monsters pretty much never stand around to be full attacked unless its in their interest to do so (in which case they can probably wipe you out with a full attack themselves).

Archery isn't brokenly powerful, but not being overpowered isn't the same thing as being underpowered. I find that archer characters, if built well, are very good for a moderate but consistent supply of ranged damage - they don't hit as hard as the big guns, but they hit more often.

- Saph

SensFan
2008-11-19, 12:07 PM
Archer: Full attacks the monster. Next turn, monster moves up and attacks once. Total: Made 3 attacks, took 1 attack.
And now the archer can no longer attack...

Heliomance
2008-11-19, 12:14 PM
He does the Munchkin Moonwalk (otherwise known as a 5' step backwards) and full attacks.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-19, 12:31 PM
Which is why I suggested Scout and Manyshot as a fix. :smallwink:



Unfortunately I don't know all that much about Incarnum classes. What are the big features of these?

(And yes, Warblades are nuts indeed!)

EDIT: Great find on the item! Hadn't heard of that one before. Definitely worth the 22,000 investment.

One of the Soulmelds a Totemist can shape grants them Wings with a Fly speed of 10ft+10ft/essentia invested. That same meld also grants a natural ranged attack that is similar in respect to the Spike attacks of the Manticore. For every essentia invested, you get one attack. All attacks from it are like throwing weapons, and all of them get extra damage from Essentia.

There's no limit to how many ranged attacks you can get other than invested Essentia, and there's no limit to the number of times you can use the attacks in a day (unlike the normal Manticore, which has a maximum).

Improved Natural Attack ups the damage from 1d6 to 1d8. A Fanged Ring increases this to 1d10, and any size increases you gain improve the damage as appropriate. It's a standard action to use this attack form to launch all of the spikes that round.

The soulmeld grants you Flyby Attack in addition to the Fly speed.

The Totemist's 20th level class feature effectively doubles the effect you gain when you invest Essentia into your Totem Bind, so every point of Essentia grants you 2 ranged attacks. The maximum number of attacks you can make at 20th level without any other effects involved is 18 (you need a custom item for this, but losing that item is negligible).

That's (1d6+18+Str) per hit. You get 18 attacks, all at a massive bonus. Assuming you have Power attack and a Str of 38 (and Brutal Throw) you have 18 attacks at a +37 attack bonus each. Point Blank Shot increases the damage and attack bonus by 1, so +38. Your Damage/Attack is 1d6+22+Power Attack.

Assuming you PA for 5 and hit with at least 5 of the 18 attacks, you are dealing an average of 152.5 damage per round for 1 minute per point of Con modifier. You also have a Fly speed of 190ft (Clumsy).

Each attack beyond the 5th that hits deals an extra 30.5 damage on average.

Add in Permanencied Enlarge Person (or Psy Tats of Expansion augmented to two or more size categories) and you get a massive amount of damage per attack.

This same trick can be applied to Girallion Arms or the Darkmantle Cloak for extra shenanigans. Action Points allow you to do this more times/day. This trick can get you a grapple bonus of +70 before any feats not named Improved Grapple and any spells are applied.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-19, 12:34 PM
He does the Munchkin Moonwalk (otherwise known as a 5' step backwards) and full attacks.

Except alot of monsters have reach. The way around this is to either cast or have an item of...Arrow mind? There's a spell in the Complete Aventurer that allows Bows to threaten everything around them and to ignore AOO's.

Saph
2008-11-19, 01:07 PM
Except alot of monsters have reach. The way around this is to either cast or have an item of...Arrow mind? There's a spell in the Complete Aventurer that allows Bows to threaten everything around them and to ignore AOO's.

5' stepping back usually works (since the monster will probably have moved up to its reach, not inside it).

Arrow Mind also works. It's in the Spell Compendium, too.

- Saph

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-19, 02:01 PM
5' stepping back usually works (since the monster will probably have moved up to its reach, not inside it).

What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.

Don't assume the worst possible tactics on the enemy's part.

(Not that the archer should be getting charged anyway. It's equally bad tactics to not use terrain or tanking fighters to keep the big enemies away.)

Darrin
2008-11-19, 02:35 PM
One of the Soulmelds a Totemist can shape grants them Wings with a Fly speed of 10ft+10ft/essentia invested. That same meld also grants a natural ranged attack that is similar in respect to the Spike attacks of the Manticore. For every essentia invested, you get one attack. All attacks from it are like throwing weapons, and all of them get extra damage from Essentia.


I'm not sure that works. Binding the Manticore Belt soulmeld to your waist gives you a fly speed and flyby attack, but doing so prevents you from binding it to your totem chakra, which gives you the spike attack. You could bind the Pegasus Cloak to your shoulders and get fly, but that won't give you flyby attack.



Improved Natural Attack ups the damage from 1d6 to 1d8. A Fanged Ring increases this to 1d10, and any size increases you gain improve the damage as appropriate. It's a standard action to use this attack form to launch all of the spikes that round.


Nothing in the Manticore Belt description identifies the spike attack as being a natural attack, nor does it mention that it would be affected by a change in size (otherwise it would specify that small-sized characters would reduce the spike attack to 1d4).



That's (1d6+18+Str) per hit. You get 18 attacks, all at a massive bonus. Assuming you have Power attack and a Str of 38 (and Brutal Throw) you have 18 attacks at a +37 attack bonus each. Point Blank Shot increases the damage and attack bonus by 1, so +38. Your Damage/Attack is 1d6+22+Power Attack.


Nor does the description mention that the spike attack is treated as a thrown weapon, so I'm not sure you can use Brutal Throw here. The text says you only get 1/2 your strength bonus on damage, Str 38 / 2 = +7. I'm not sure how you're using Power Attack on a ranged attack, either.

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 02:45 PM
The Gold standard for Archery after level 7 is the DMM Persist Cleric with Multiple Splitting Bows, since of course, Persisted Polymorph into an Arrow Demon is sweet.

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 02:47 PM
Wind Wall is pretty much irrelevant in actual games. I've never once seen it used effectively, and I play with some people who are pretty good with casters.

Have you ever had a situation in which a ranged attacker was a threat to them?

I've used Wind wall quite effectively, largely because my Familiar casts it. Though admittedly at higher levels he'd just as soon toss up a Spirit Wall instead.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-19, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure that works. Binding the Manticore Belt soulmeld to your waist gives you a fly speed and flyby attack, but doing so prevents you from binding it to your totem chakra, which gives you the spike attack. You could bind the Pegasus Cloak to your shoulders and get fly, but that won't give you flyby attack.

Totem Bind (Double Chakra) allows this. Remember that this is coming from a 20th level Totemist.



Nothing in the Manticore Belt description identifies the spike attack as being a natural attack, nor does it mention that it would be affected by a change in size (otherwise it would specify that small-sized characters would reduce the spike attack to 1d4).

So be it.


Nor does the description mention that the spike attack is treated as a thrown weapon, so I'm not sure you can use Brutal Throw here. The text says you only get 1/2 your strength bonus on damage, Str 38 / 2 = +7. I'm not sure how you're using Power Attack on a ranged attack, either.

This would be where personal preference comes in. As I usually DM, I rule it as a Thrown weapon. It just makes sense to me. Brutal Throw was to add the extra damage. You make your point, but I play my game a little differently.

Darrin
2008-11-19, 03:36 PM
Totem Bind (Double Chakra) allows this.


I don't think that's how it works. Double Chakra allows two soulmelds to occupy the same chakra. It doesn't allow a single soulmeld to occupy two different chakras. As far as I know, there is no feat/ability that allows a soulmeld to be bound to more than one chakra.

Flight + Flyby Attack can still be done with Pegasus Cloak and just taking the Flyby Attack feat.



This would be where personal preference comes in. As I usually DM, I rule it as a Thrown weapon. It just makes sense to me. Brutal Throw was to add the extra damage. You make your point, but I play my game a little differently.

Not a problem. They are all fairly reasonable interpretations of RAI.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-19, 03:41 PM
I don't think that's how it works. Double Chakra allows two soulmelds to occupy the same chakra. It doesn't allow a single soulmeld to occupy two different chakras. As far as I know, there is no feat/ability that allows a soulmeld to be bound to more than one chakra.

Flight + Flyby Attack can still be done with Pegasus Cloak and just taking the Flyby Attack feat.



Not a problem. They are all fairly reasonable interpretations of RAI.

I meant the class feature of the Totemist. 12th level IIRC. It allows you to bind one soulmeld to two different Chakras, provided one of those Chakras is your Totem. The feat has nothing to do with this discussion.

Bayar
2008-11-19, 03:54 PM
Raptorans with foot bows. Those are fun. Also, Sun elf artificiers that become Archeficiers at about lvl 7. (polymorph into an arrow demon, wield bows bigger than normal , and dual wield bows)

Paul H
2008-11-19, 04:04 PM
Hi

Various builds for archers include scouts & fighters. But if you take one level of Ranger you can use wands of Hunter's Mercy that make your next hit an auto crit.

Also, take a spell-storing bow & team up with a Warmage if you can. Flaming Arrow grants extra D6+Int fire damage from a Warmage (I've done this before). Drop a Scorching Ray into that (also from Warmage), then with your Hunter's Mercy you're doing mega damage. From my LG character that's an extra 36D6+6 Fire damage from the Scorch Ray alone!

Obviously a Holy/Spellstoring Bow is an advantage, as are the Wpn Crystals from MIC.

Lastly, I've got a Dakon cohort who's a Beguiler. Thinking of upgrading his M/w Might Comp +4 Shortbow to a Spellstoring one. Hardly optimised as an archer, but shooting with Imp Invis running, and Inevitable Defeat* stored, should make quite an adversary. (In addition I'll have 'Fired' up his arrows for extra D6+2 fire damage). Don't forget the advantages from shooting whilst Invis.

*Inev Defeat deals 3D6 non-lethal dam first rnd, then additional 3D6 non-lethal dam/rnd (9 rnds) until save made. This case DC21 Will, and every time save is rolled -2Attack/-2AC for one rnd from Unsettling Enchantment).

Cheers
Paul H
PS Main Char is Dwarf Clr 3/Warmage 4/Mystic T 5.
Cohort is Dakon Wiz 1/Beguiler 9. (Str 18)!

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-19, 04:12 PM
For ranged damage, I'm partial to the Swift Hunter Ranger mounted on a light horse animal companion. Your horse moves around, and you can take your full attacks to your heart's content.

In theory, anyay. I never wind up playing an archer, as hitting someone in the face with four feet of steel seems so much more personal than filling them with arrows from a distance.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-19, 04:46 PM
Uh, the problem with that its been confirmed that a mounts don't activate skirmish, you have to do it yourself.

RebelRogue
2008-11-19, 06:23 PM
What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.
I agree, except you cannot do this with an actual charge action, since it explicitly says you must end your move in the nearest possible position in which you can attack the target.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-19, 06:35 PM
Uh, the problem with that its been confirmed that a mounts don't activate skirmish, you have to do it yourself.
How does that even possibly make sense?

RebelRogue
2008-11-19, 06:41 PM
How does that even possibly make sense?
It makes perfect sense: in order to activate a scout's skirmish class feature, he has to move 10' by himself! Being carried 10' by a mount does not work.

Saph
2008-11-19, 07:18 PM
What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.

Don't assume the worst possible tactics on the enemy's part.

As mentioned, this doesn't work if charging (though if they have enough movement they can get up and hit you with a standard action).

But even so, dealing out a full attack and taking a standard is a much better opening to the battle than dealing out a single attack and getting a full attack plus an AoO in return.

- Saph

Samakain
2008-11-19, 07:29 PM
my favorite archer build i've made so far was a Xeph fighter/psi warrior (Boring i know :P)

Weapon Focus - Comp Long Bow.
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid shot, Improved Rapid Shot
Many Shot, Greater Many Shot
Greater Weapon Fo, Weap Special, Greater Weap Special.
Extra Xeph Boost and Xeph Celerity.

6 boosts a day, celerity lets you trade movement for an extra attack. So with a full attack action thats 6 shots at lvl 20 with 3 of them being at your full BAB. Greater Manyshot is a standard action, so if you have to move you might as well slot 4 arrows into 4 different things while your at it.

you'll never be rich in PP, Force screen for some defense if needed, stop is always handy in the lower levels if things get to close, but mainly precog, offensive and prescience offensive augmented as needed for a nice boost to hit and damage.

plus if you need to book it, your a xeph, drop a boost into speed make a full run action and your a dot on the horizon.

well thats my 2 cents anyway. ::smallbiggrin:

DrizztFan24
2008-11-19, 11:13 PM
Well I am getting alot fo builds but I need to know the udnerlying features of teh build taht make them work, I am trying to revamp the earlier mentioned homebrew. It seems like using a ridiculous amount of attacks is the way to go, and spending 22k on a power attack bow thing deal. Missing anything? And that totemist build is out, no straight bows involved.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-19, 11:27 PM
Well I am getting alot fo builds but I need to know the udnerlying features of teh build taht make them work, I am trying to revamp the earlier mentioned homebrew. It seems like using a ridiculous amount of attacks is the way to go, and spending 22k on a power attack bow thing deal. Missing anything? And that totemist build is out, no straight bows involved.In D&D the easiest way to kill the enemy is with bonus damage. TWF characters do it with bonus damage+lots of attacks, THF characters do it with PA and multipliers.

Bows generally don't have nearly enough damage. Swift Hunters get around this with Skirmish+lots of attacks from Splitting. Clerics have all of their standard buffs to boost Str to the point where it's almost bonus damage in it's own right. Archerfisters have Cleric-esque buff levels and get Polymorph for Arrow Demon shenanigans, on top of Ranger spells. The key is finding a way to boost damage per turn into the stratosphere, so that you don't become a Monk(enemies can't hurt you, but since you don't do anything they don't care).

Keld Denar
2008-11-20, 01:33 AM
So looking at above posts it seems like you get two ways to mean something as an archer or something about a river of excrement and a traditional native american mode of transportation and no method of propulsion.


OMG, is that a reference to the last episode of The Big Bang Theory? If so, you totally rock out.

An archer can stack up a decent amount of bonus damage. A couple of decent bow enhancements can go a long way. Force is probably one of the best, outside of Splitting, which is just on the far side of broken. Exit Wounds is a passable 2nd to Splitting, because it splits damage among targets instead of stacking it all on a single target. A couple stacks of different +1 Bane X arrows kick the damage up a notch as well, especially if you know generally what you'll be fighting.

Vinotaur
2008-11-20, 02:16 AM
Bows generally don't have nearly enough damage. Swift Hunters get around this with Skirmish+lots of attacks from Splitting. Clerics have all of their standard buffs to boost Str to the point where it's almost bonus damage in it's own right. Archerfisters have Cleric-esque buff levels and get Polymorph for Arrow Demon shenanigans, on top of Ranger spells. The key is finding a way to boost damage per turn into the stratosphere, so that you don't become a Monk(enemies can't hurt you, but since you don't do anything they don't care).

Um? You do know that Clerics are the origional Arrow Demon abusers, and in fact were Persisting it before Archivists even existed.

Kizara
2008-11-20, 04:35 AM
Sup my houserules:

Feats:
Core feat revisions:
-Far Shot no-longer has any prerequisites.
-Manyshot does not have Rapid Shot as a prerequisite.
-Weapon Focus grants +2 to hit with the selected weapon.
-Weapon Specialization grants +3 damage with the selected weapon.
-Greater Weapon Focus grants a further +2 to hit with the selected weapon, +4 to defensive Sunder or Disarm rolls involving the weapon and the ability to take 10 on attack rolls involving the weapon.
-Greater Weapon Specialization grants a further +3 damage with the selected weapon and doubles the weapon damage dice (1d8 becomes 2d8, 2d6 becomes 4d6, etc). Furthermore, you automatically succeed at critical confirmation rolls with the selected weapon.

New feats:

Called Shot [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: On your action, before making an attack roll, you may choose to subtract a number from your ranged attack rolls and add that number to your ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. Targets immune to precision damage (such as undead) are likewise immune to this effect.

Your target must be within 30ft to benefit from this effect.

This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack or Precision Strike.


Pierce the Wind [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 8+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Strength 19+

Benefit: When firing in windy conditions, you may treat the wind as if it was two levels milder. This allows you to fire through a Wind Wall or similar effect.

Pin Down [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make a single ranged attack with a bow, light or heavy crossbow or medium-sized or larger thrown weapon against a ground based target within 60ft. If your attack hits, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) or be pinned immobile by your attack, unable to move from that spot. Your opponents may still attack and defend themselves normally and this feat does not work on opponents more then two size categories larger then yourself.

This effect may be removed be a DC 20 heal check requiring a full-round action or by magical healing equal to the original damage of the attack. Otherwise it ends in 3 rounds as the weapon works itself free.
Alternately, the affected individual may attempt a DC 15 Strength check as a move-equivalent action to pull the weapon free. However, doing so results in 1d8 damage to the individual and reduces their movement by half (DC 15 heal check to remove this penalty, or magically healing the damage caused by pulling the weapon loose).
If an opponent is afflicted by more then one Pin Down effect, increase all DCs by 5 for each additional active effect.

OotBI Rework:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78983

Change Wind Wall to 3 spell-levels higher (for all casters).



I didn't read the whole thread, but does anyone have any other issues I need to address with houserules?

Triaxx
2008-11-20, 06:00 AM
My players decided that Wind Wall was overpowered when it worked, and Epically pointless when it didnt. Largely because it forces you into melee, unless you happen to be a Hulking Hurler. We decided that Wizards had enough nasty advantages and preventing archers from readying shots to force concentration checks was too nasty. So I devised an alternative:

Storm Wind
Evocation
Level: Sorceror/Wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20'
Target: Ground
Duration: 1d4 rounds+1/caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Storm Wind summons a powerful gust of wind, 15' across, and 20' high. This wind is powerful enough to cause serious trouble for casters, and archers alike. Arrows have a -2 to hit, and the target gains +2 to AC against the arrow, affecting arrows fired into, or through the wind, including those launched from within it. Spell casters may cast through the wind without negative effect, but must make a DC 12 concentration check to cast from within the confines of the wind. Melee attacks, and sling stones, are unaffected.

For Archery itself, something you'll want are custom quivers, which impart their enhancement on any arrows put in. So a Quiver of Splitting, Shocking, Flaming Burst can have normal arrows or bolts dropped in, and when they come out they do all of the above.

Brilliant Energy quivers are also all sorts of fun. And then this spur of the moment feat:

Overdraw
Prereq: Str 15, Dex 17
Effect: A character with overdraw may draw their bow farther than normal, sacrificing accuracy for the potential to do more damage. For each two BAB sacrificed, one damage is added to the arrow's potential damage. Damage stacks with Composite bows, but may not be used on crossbows.
Normal: May not overdraw bow.

DrizztFan24
2008-11-20, 09:40 AM
Overdraw
Prereq: Str 15, Dex 17
Effect: A character with overdraw may draw their bow farther than normal, sacrificing accuracy for the potential to do more damage. For each two BAB sacrificed, one damage is added to the arrow's potential damage. Damage stacks with Composite bows, but may not be used on crossbows.
Normal: May not overdraw bow.

I think that is definately the best name for a power attack with a bow.

So now am I right in figuring that you need a nice enchantment for your bow, and a couple of enchanted arrows for especially difficult enemies? This will add extra damage per attack and thus cause the archer not to be shunned?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-20, 09:42 AM
I think that is definately the best name for a power attack with a bow.

So now am I right in figuring that you need a nice enchantment for your bow, and a couple of enchanted arrows for especially difficult enemies? This will add extra damage per attack and thus cause the archer not to be shunned?Somewhat, but you need much more of a boost than that. After all, can you really spend 160GP per shot even against bosses(+2 enhancement/50)?

Craby
2008-11-20, 10:30 AM
homebrew feat
Pin Down [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make a single ranged attack with a bow, light or heavy crossbow or medium-sized or larger thrown weapon against a ground based target within 60ft. If your attack hits, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) or be pinned immobile by your attack, unable to move from that spot. Your opponents may still attack and defend themselves normally and this feat does not work on opponents more then two size categories larger then yourself.

This effect may be removed be a DC 20 heal check requiring a full-round action or by magical healing equal to the original damage of the attack. Otherwise it ends in 3 rounds as the weapon works itself free.
Alternately, the affected individual may attempt a DC 15 Strength check as a move-equivalent action to pull the weapon free. However, doing so results in 1d8 damage to the individual and reduces their movement by half (DC 15 heal check to remove this penalty, or magically healing the damage caused by pulling the weapon loose).
If an opponent is afflicted by more then one Pin Down effect, increase all DCs by 5 for each additional active effect.

complete warrior feat
Ranged Pin
You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent not adjacent to you.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +5
Benefit: You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of its clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor, or other accoutrement. You must succeed on a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) and then win an opposed grapple character (your size modifier and the target’s size modifiers still apply). To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check as a standard action.
**** This feat will not work with firearms or other weapons that do not us arrows, bolts or other large projectiles which can be used to hold the target.****
Special: When using this feat, a character gains no benefit from the Improved Grapple feat.not saying yours is bad, but one already exists.

also, here is my most recent archer build:
2 levels ranger
all other levels in scout
order of the bow a possible prestige class

important feats:
improved skirmish
swift hunter
improved favored enemy
multishot (rapid gained from combat style 2nd level ranger)

make sure to keep tumble skill as high as possible. tumble 20 feet (+10 from scout class to base movement) and gain the improved skirmish bonus. if you can make you full move from a 25 tumble it just makes next round that much easier.

swift hunter is a very powerful ranged build. as pointed out earlier in the thread.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-20, 10:47 AM
It makes perfect sense: in order to activate a scout's skirmish class feature, he has to move 10' by himself! Being carried 10' by a mount does not work.

/facepalm

The skirmisher is still moving at least 10 feet regardless of his means of locomotion. It shouldn't matter if the scout is on foot, on a horse, the back of a flying dragon, or plinking away from a slow traveling boxcar. He's still in motion, and thus able to create the situation necessary to get in a skirmishing shot.

Reading the ability as the scout having do provide the movement by himself cuts off any use for mounts, as to fight effectively the scout has to dismount. That's absolutely foolish, both mechanically and flavorwise. An archer is already a character path that needs a lot going for it to keep up in usefulness with the other characters. Cutting off mounts and flying mounts from it's abilities is kind of excessive. For a melee scout, you don't restrict skirmish if the scout happens to ride by on a horse and slash someone, nor would you restrict skirmish from someone using the Spring Attack --> Bounding Assault --> Rapid Blitz tree. Taking it away from mongol-style mounted archers just makes zero sense.

pjackson
2008-11-20, 11:04 AM
Also, take a spell-storing bow

By RAW and most likely RAI spell storing is only available for melee weapons.

Telonius
2008-11-20, 11:41 AM
Some work with Arcane Archer might help out. I'm thinking something like Wizard3/Fighter5/Arcane Archer2/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight7. At the end you'll be imbuing arrows as though you were an 11th-level Wizard, with a BAB of 18.

Telonius
2008-11-20, 11:43 AM
/facepalm

The skirmisher is still moving at least 10 feet regardless of his means of locomotion. It shouldn't matter if the scout is on foot, on a horse, the back of a flying dragon, or plinking away from a slow traveling boxcar.

Ahh, but would he get the skirmish bonus if he's on the ground, shooting at a boxcar that's moving away from him? :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-11-20, 11:59 AM
There are two explanations for the Scout's skirmish damage failing when mounted:
This is precision damage, requiring the Scout to move to exactly the right position to get the perfect angle for a more effective shot. The mount doesn't know how to set up those perfect angles.
Game Balance. It's just too powerful if a mount automatically enables skirmish.

Eldariel
2008-11-20, 01:01 PM
Some work with Arcane Archer might help out. I'm thinking something like Wizard3/Fighter5/Arcane Archer2/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight7. At the end you'll be imbuing arrows as though you were an 11th-level Wizard, with a BAB of 18.

Better than that is simple Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 2 (not in that order). You get to imbue high-level spells and your caster level is high enough to cast all buffs (get Practiced Spellcaster for CL 20) and you still have BAB 16.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-20, 01:20 PM
also, here is my most recent archer build:
2 levels ranger
all other levels in scout
order of the bow a possible prestige class

important feats:
improved skirmish
swift hunter
improved favored enemy
multishot (rapid gained from combat style 2nd level ranger)

make sure to keep tumble skill as high as possible. tumble 20 feet (+10 from scout class to base movement) and gain the improved skirmish bonus. if you can make you full move from a 25 tumble it just makes next round that much easier.

swift hunter is a very powerful ranged build. as pointed out earlier in the thread.

Got that backwards, you can get an extra attack by flipping ranger and scout in your build, or at least Ranger4. And you use Greater Manyshot, not Manyshot. The difference being Manyshot doesn't allow precision-based damage to apply to every missile, wheras the Greater version does.


Some work with Arcane Archer might help out. I'm thinking something like Wizard3/Fighter5/Arcane Archer2/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight7. At the end you'll be imbuing arrows as though you were an 11th-level Wizard, with a BAB of 18.
Umm... no. Arcane Archer does not work that way. You only get a +1, because enhance arrows class feature has nothing to do with spellcasting. You cast as an 11th level wizard, which at 20th level, isn't worth bothering with.

A better way would be:
Fighter2/Wiz4/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldrich Knight8

9th level spells, +18 BAB. Buy a Pearl of Power for your 3rd level spell slot and use it to cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow. You now have +5 bow.

Imbue Arrow is a worthless class feature, because you loose the ability to advance your spellcasting to get it, and there are no spells it would benefit anyways.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-20, 01:22 PM
Ahh, but would he get the skirmish bonus if he's on the ground, shooting at a boxcar that's moving away from him? :smallbiggrin:

Not unless he's got the swift hunter feat and Favored Enemy: Constructs! :smallwink:


There are two explanations for the Scout's skirmish damage failing when mounted:
This is precision damage, requiring the Scout to move to exactly the right position to get the perfect angle for a more effective shot. The mount doesn't know how to set up those perfect angles.
Game Balance. It's just too powerful if a mount automatically enables skirmish.


Hmm... I've never encountered it in game, but I suppose a DC 25 ride check, increasing by +2 per shot fired that round would be reasonable.

I just don't see using skirmish in this way as unbalancingly powerful. Mounted archers are already taking penalties on their attack rolls, need to remain within 30 feet of their targets, and have a wide variety of enemies that are immune to skirmish damage (increasing at higher levels). And even in perfect situations, you're still doing considerably less damage than a standard leap-attacking shock trooper, combat brute build, with a lower attack bonus to boot!

Telonius
2008-11-20, 01:30 PM
I'd considered a straight EK character, but ignoring 15% armor failure from Spellsword would make a full-plate archer/caster into a viable option (twilight mithral fullplate). If he's ever expected to be in melee, that would be preferable. I'm thinking of this as more of an ARCHER/caster than an archer/CASTER.

Shneeky - Enhance Arrow doesn't work that way, but Imbue Arrow does. I was attempting to approximate a spell-storing ranged weapon, and that's the best way I could figure out to do it. There's no requirement that you lose spellcasting advancement once you take Imbue - the lack of progression is the stupid part about the Arcane Archer PrC, not any particular requirement for using Imbue.

ashmanonar
2008-11-20, 01:42 PM
You can't power attack with a bow. Power attacking with a bunch of tricks used to boost the multiplier is the standard way to deal worthwhile damage with a melee character (that, or TWFing with a source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack, which also doesn't work very well with archery). Thus, it is quite difficult to get/keep your damage output up to scratch as an archer.

Cleric archers using Zen Archery to use Wis instead of Dex are the usual "gold standard" for archery.

There's also a homebrew discipline for ToB-style archery which offsets these problems by giving you maneuvers which boost your damage.

I'd love to play with that combat discipline some day. Really, you'd almost need a new character class that uses ToB (although swordsage works pretty well.)

Craby
2008-11-20, 02:10 PM
Got that backwards, you can get an extra attack by flipping ranger and scout in your build, or at least Ranger4. And you use Greater Manyshot, not Manyshot. The difference being Manyshot doesn't allow precision-based damage to apply to every missile, wheras the Greater version does.

cant use an extra attack if you keep moving. the second level of ranger was simply to use combat style to gain rapid shot as a bonus feat for many shot prereqs. ultimately leading to greater many shot.

why wouldnt the precision damage be applied to manyshot. granted you only get to apply it once for the whole clump.

taking 4 levels ranger does gain you more base attack but you lose some of the cool abilities scouts get. and only gain a very weak animal companion and petty spells.

Eldariel
2008-11-20, 02:16 PM
I'd love to play with that combat discipline some day. Really, you'd almost need a new character class that uses ToB (although swordsage works pretty well.)

Homebrew Sublime Way Ranger (and Barbarian and Marshal and so on) exists. Also, you could give any of the 3 ToB-classes access without much trouble (Crusader already has Bow-proficiencies, Swordsage is drawn with a Bow in hand and Warblade is effectively Fighter/Barbarian-redux; Bows fit fine for either).

Zeful
2008-11-20, 02:19 PM
By RAW and most likely RAI spell storing is only available for melee weapons.

1)It's not on the ranged weapon list. 2)it does not have "a launcher (bow, crossbow, sling) with this property bestows this property onto it's ammunition."

It cannot be put on a bow.

Ionizer
2008-11-20, 05:06 PM
1)It's not on the ranged weapon list. 2)it does not have "a launcher (bow, crossbow, sling) with this property bestows this property onto it's ammunition."

It cannot be put on a bow.

However, Arrows can technically be used as melee weapons, so Spell-Storing Arrows should be a possibility. They cost 167 gp per arrow, assuming they are normal, run-of the mill wooden-and-steel arrows with no other enchantments besides Spell-Storing (and a +1 enhancement, of course). Probably too expensive for everyday use, but they could be useful for tough fights.

Ionizer
2008-11-20, 05:11 PM
EDIT: Sorry, that's what I get for trying to post during a comic update...

Kizara
2008-11-21, 11:52 AM
complete warrior feat
Ranged Pin
You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent not adjacent to you.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +5
Benefit: You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of its clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor, or other accoutrement. You must succeed on a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) and then win an opposed grapple character (your size modifier and the target’s size modifiers still apply). To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check as a standard action.
**** This feat will not work with firearms or other weapons that do not us arrows, bolts or other large projectiles which can be used to hold the target.****
Special: When using this feat, a character gains no benefit from the Improved Grapple feat.not saying yours is bad, but one already exists.

also, here is my most recent archer build:
2 levels ranger
all other levels in scout
order of the bow a possible prestige class

important feats:
improved skirmish
swift hunter
improved favored enemy
multishot (rapid gained from combat style 2nd level ranger)

make sure to keep tumble skill as high as possible. tumble 20 feet (+10 from scout class to base movement) and gain the improved skirmish bonus. if you can make you full move from a 25 tumble it just makes next round that much easier.

swift hunter is a very powerful ranged build. as pointed out earlier in the thread.

I am aware of that. In fact I have gone over the Cwar feats completely, revising many of them. The one that had a similar function (but inferior in ability and wording) to mine I simply removed.

Philistine
2008-11-21, 12:27 PM
/facepalm

The skirmisher is still moving at least 10 feet regardless of his means of locomotion. It shouldn't matter if the scout is on foot, on a horse, the back of a flying dragon, or plinking away from a slow traveling boxcar. He's still in motion, and thus able to create the situation necessary to get in a skirmishing shot.

Reading the ability as the scout having do provide the movement by himself cuts off any use for mounts, as to fight effectively the scout has to dismount. That's absolutely foolish, both mechanically and flavorwise. An archer is already a character path that needs a lot going for it to keep up in usefulness with the other characters. Cutting off mounts and flying mounts from it's abilities is kind of excessive. For a melee scout, you don't restrict skirmish if the scout happens to ride by on a horse and slash someone, nor would you restrict skirmish from someone using the Spring Attack --> Bounding Assault --> Rapid Blitz tree. Taking it away from mongol-style mounted archers just makes zero sense.

Yes, you do.

The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted.
If you want to houserule it otherwise, that's cool - but it is a houserule.

Zeful
2008-11-21, 02:00 PM
However, Arrows can technically be used as melee weapons, so Spell-Storing Arrows should be a possibility. They cost 167 gp per arrow, assuming they are normal, run-of the mill wooden-and-steel arrows with no other enchantments besides Spell-Storing (and a +1 enhancement, of course). Probably too expensive for everyday use, but they could be useful for tough fights.

Arrows are melee weapons in the same sense a longsword is a ranged weapon. They're not. Arrows may be used as a melee weapon because the weapon description says so. They are still ammunition and thus only be enchanted as ranged weapons.

You can't have spell storing arrows.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-21, 02:09 PM
There are two explanations for the Scout's skirmish damage failing when mounted:
This is precision damage, requiring the Scout to move to exactly the right position to get the perfect angle for a more effective shot. The mount doesn't know how to set up those perfect angles.
Game Balance. It's just too powerful if a mount automatically enables skirmish.


1: Ride allows you to guide your mount with your knees. You can then take the shot whenever you feel it appropriate.

2: There are more broken things than always-on Skirmish damage. That should be the least of your worries. Skirmish, Sneak Attack, and Sudden Strike are all easily negated abilities and incredibly less-powerful than feats like Power Attack and Shock Trooper, and considerably weaker than most spells that see play.

Hell if 5d6, +5 AC is so powerful to you, I'd like to get your opinion on the Warlock.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-21, 02:21 PM
If you want to houserule it otherwise, that's cool - but it is a houserule.

Wow. That's just a terrible call. Yep, I'll be houseruling that one into a stone tablet.

Triaxx
2008-11-21, 02:35 PM
Somewhat, but you need much more of a boost than that. After all, can you really spend 160GP per shot even against bosses(+2 enhancement/50)?

Not really, hence the magic quivers I mentioned. If you've got LOT's of gold you can get infinite quivers, similar to those from Baldur's Gate 2. I seem to recall something like 50K gold for a non-magical infinite supply quiver, and then the cost of making it +1, +2 etc.

Personally, I like Arrows of Detonation for my boss fight needs.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 02:40 PM
Not really, hence the magic quivers I mentioned. If you've got LOT's of gold you can get infinite quivers, similar to those from Baldur's Gate 2. I seem to recall something like 50K gold for a non-magical infinite supply quiver, and then the cost of making it +1, +2 etc.

Personally, I like Arrows of Detonation for my boss fight needs.Where'd you find those stats? I've seen those things houseruled before, but I can't even think about how it would be priced.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-21, 02:40 PM
1: Ride allows you to guide your mount with your knees. You can then take the shot whenever you feel it appropriate.

2: There are more broken things than always-on Skirmish damage. That should be the least of your worries. Skirmish, Sneak Attack, and Sudden Strike are all easily negated abilities and incredibly less-powerful than feats like Power Attack and Shock Trooper, and considerably weaker than most spells that see play.

Hell if 5d6, +5 AC is so powerful to you, I'd like to get your opinion on the Warlock.

I think it was to prevent people from moving there horse then full attacking for +5d6... and or do to that with the combination of swift ambusher.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-21, 02:49 PM
I think it was to prevent people from moving there horse then full attacking for +5d6... and or do to that with the combination of swift ambusher.

Except we can all ready do that. Travel Devotion, Greater Manyshot+Flyby Attack+Dragonborn or Raptorian, Wands of Lesser Celerity+Immunity to Daze (easily obtained through an item of Favor of the Martyr). The list is quite large.

Is it fair to allow Rogues to get Sneak Attack on a full attack when flanking (which is easy to do) but not allow the Scout to get Skirmish on a Full Attack just as easy? 5d6 compared to 10d6. Do the math.

Kizara
2008-11-21, 03:23 PM
I think it was to prevent people from moving there horse then full attacking for +5d6... and or do to that with the combination of swift ambusher.

Considering I don't think you can do that anyways, since the horse's movement takes time. The same reason you can't full attack off a spirited charge (sans-nonsense).

Unless you mean with ranged, and then yes its pretty cool.

If you have ever played a game like Medieval Total War 2 or Mount&Blade you can understand how ANNOYING horse archers can be. Their maneauverability and damage output are difficult to deal with.


Honestly, you still have to be within 30ft to do this. So its mostly an "ambush and evade" type tactic. However, you get 20 lvl 1 human scouts with light warhorses that have point blank and rapid shot, and it gets pretty bloody disgusting actually.

Seriously, through that at anything but an aoe-disable happy druid/wizard as an appropriate EL encounter on the plains and watch the fireworks and tears.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-21, 04:03 PM
Where'd you find those stats? I've seen those things houseruled before, but I can't even think about how it would be priced.

I'd consider it a use-activated item of Greater Magic Weapon personally, at the proper CL for the +X you want.

+1 = CL5, so 30K.
+2 = CL8, so 48K.
+3 = Cl12, so 72K.
+4 = CL16, so 96K.
+5 = CL20, so 120K.

Or...you could just buy a +5 bow for 50,000, then buy an absurd number of arrows with the 70,000 you just saved.

Triaxx
2008-11-21, 07:48 PM
House ruled for the base cost of the infinite enhancement. It's approximately 49995gp. :smallwink:

170K for an infinite reserve of +5 arrows. I'd buy it, even just for the final boss fight.

80K to spend most of the game without having to worry about running out? Worth every penny. And an infinite quiver is technically plus one, but doesn't impart any bonus on it's own. You can add Flaming, or Shocking or Frost to it and have the arrows be that as well. It's treated as ranged ammo for the prices and what can apply to it. An additional +20K for any other kind of arrow, such as Adamantine, Mithral, Silver, etc...

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-21, 07:57 PM
Considering I don't think you can do that anyways, since the horse's movement takes time. The same reason you can't full attack off a spirited charge (sans-nonsense).

Unless you mean with ranged, and then yes its pretty cool.

If you have ever played a game like Medieval Total War 2 or Mount&Blade you can understand how ANNOYING horse archers can be. Their maneauverability and damage output are difficult to deal with.


Honestly, you still have to be within 30ft to do this. So its mostly an "ambush and evade" type tactic. However, you get 20 lvl 1 human scouts with light warhorses that have point blank and rapid shot, and it gets pretty bloody disgusting actually.

Seriously, through that at anything but an aoe-disable happy druid/wizard as an appropriate EL encounter on the plains and watch the fireworks and tears.

correct you can't charge and make a fulla ttack while mounted however you could have you mount move and make a full attack.. horses move what 50ft or 60ft or some thing?

Kizara
2008-11-21, 10:34 PM
correct you can't charge and make a fulla ttack while mounted however you could have you mount move and make a full attack.. horses move what 50ft or 60ft or some thing?

PHB pg 157

Mounted Combat; Combat while Mounted

Second and third sentances of second paragraph read:

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."


Please don't correct me if you don't look it up yourself. :)

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 06:29 PM
prestige class into a highland stalker (if you plan to make a scout.) that boosts the skirmish with more skirmish.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 06:35 PM
5d6 compared to 10d6. Do the math.

skirmish gives you an AC boost.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 06:38 PM
and sorry if i insulted yousinfire titan, i didn't fully figure out how to do quotes yet (like putting who said it, do you put that in seperately?)

only1doug
2008-12-14, 06:53 PM
and sorry if i insulted yousinfire titan, i didn't fully figure out how to do quotes yet (like putting who said it, do you put that in seperately?)

click the quote button in the bottom right hand corner of the post you wish to quote to gain the posters name and a link to the post you are quoting, if you just want a quoted by then use (quote=xxxx) where xxxx is the text you want (and using square brackets [ ]).

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 07:18 PM
click the quote button in the bottom right hand corner of the post you wish to quote to gain the posters name and a link to the post you are quoting, if you just want a quoted by then use (quote=xxxx) where xxxx is the text you want (and using square brackets [ ]).

like that?

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 07:20 PM
how do you keep it on the same window?
yes i know this irrelevent to the thread so continue as if i wasn't here unless you want to comment on something.

SoD
2008-12-14, 07:24 PM
I quite like this homebrewed archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75248). Please note, at no point, ever, did I claim to have written it, or even had a part involved in it. Because I haven't.

only1doug
2008-12-14, 07:37 PM
like that?

Yes.


how do you keep it on the same window?

well, I right click the quote button and choose open in a new tab, doing the same to all the posts i want to reply to. then i cut and paste from the multiple windows into one reply box and answer everything at once. you can also change your previous posts by clicking the edit button that appears in the bottom right hand corner of your finished post.


yes i know this irrelevent to the thread so continue as if i wasn't here unless you want to comment on something.

true. if you have any further questions shoot me a PM (private message) and i'll answer in kind. left click on my name next my post and choose send Private message. monitor your own private messages in the top right hand corner of every window.

you can also split peoples posts using cut and paste and copy and paste.

AdamSmasher
2008-12-14, 07:48 PM
I would like to suggest a good old fashioned thri-kreen (non-psionic) Volley Archer with Two Weapon Fighting.

Two Splitting Energybows.

Shazam.

Feat intensive? Hell yes. Worth it? Hilarity says so.

ericgrau
2008-12-14, 07:51 PM
It's sad that internet fads limit people to a narrow range of strategies, when in fact there are plenty of viable tactics. IRL players frequently and effectively enjoy this variety in regular play, sometimes oblivious to what they're not missing. At least in core. Power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) is situational, and - after you count misses - only gives a small damage boost even when it does work (see link). Splatbooks tend to ruin this, though, with the feats that pile on to PA, or spells like wraithstrike that let you nigh-auto hit and thus dump all that (now unnecessary) AB into damage. So I suppose with splatbooks it might be true that the ubercharger w/ maybe some tripping is the only way to go.

The advantages of archery are as follow:
1. Less reliance on defense. It doesn't matter so much that you don't have a shield since you're in back. Plus your dex helps both AC and AB. Kneeling and cover help too. That all means you can spend more gold on your weapon, and deal more damage that way.
2. Less crowding issues. When everyone else goes melee, you can still add on your damage no problem. Precise shot may be necessary here.
3. Rapid shot works with only one weapon. Unlike TWF. That means you only have to invest in one weapon for enchantments, and don't have to use a weak off-hand weapon. Rapid shot is a must have. This add a great deal of damage. When you have to move, multi-shot can help too.
4. Easy to switch to special metals types. Just switch your arrows. Again, less need to invest in multiple weapons, letting you spend more gold on your main weapon.
5. You can ready an action to disrupt spellcasters. Protection from arrows doesn't work on magic arrows, wind wall can't really be cast ahead of time, and likewise other defenses have their limitations.
6. Pick your targets more easily. Focus on the most annoying ones, which are often squishy as well.
7. You have insane range (up to 10 times range modifier) and you can snipe. See hide rules. Get a good distance away and the heavy penalty to your enemies' spot will easily offset the -20 penalty to your hide. Drop monsters before they even know what's going on. Especially good if you sneak around, rather than rushing in to closed quarters.
8. More frequent full attacks. Again, more damage.

Basically if you're in a closed-quarters dungeon crashing party at least one person should usually cover melee, but beyond that range offers tons of other advantages. Including damage output, for reasons above.

As with any martial character, boots of speed or another source of haste is a must have. Likewise damage enchantments are often good for damage output. I'd get more of those than enhancement bonuses, unless you're afraid of energy resistance. And they add more than power attack would anyway, btw.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 07:59 PM
i would suggest
greater manyshot: allows you to hit multiple targets
shot on the run: ranged spring attack
other point blank family feats but those two are the most usefull to me (and improved precise shot.)

But that's probably because they're the greatest of their particular branch.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 08:05 PM
if for some reason you have a skill problem you can take jack of all trades. which allows you to use any skill, even "trained only" ones.

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 12:24 PM
The biggest down side to playing any non-caster archer build is that its boring. You do the same exact thing almost every round of combat. "I make a full attack with my bow." Most (or all) of your feats are needed to improve archery.

Of course, that's the same reason many melee builds have a tough time. In order to make something potent, you need to specialize. But the more you specialize, the more pigeonholed you become.