[3.5] DMing a warlock

[Epinephrine]

I'll be running my first ever party with a warlock in it, and she will likely select Walk Unseen and Fell Flight among her invocations, and is expressing interest in the feat "Flyby Attack".

How do most DMs deal with warlocks? At higher levels the invisibility is easy to beat, and flight isn't as big a deal, but at low levels I can see it being incredibly effective to have flight and invisibility. I don't want to use absurd numbers of foes that can see invisible, but at the same time I don't want it to be a cakewalk for the flying warlock to fight whatever she likes from the relative safety of the air. Given how early a warlock can fly/be invisible whenever they like, how much adjustment does it take to handle one?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll be running my first ever party with a warlock in it, and she will likely select Walk Unseen and Fell Flight among her invocations, and is expressing interest in the feat "Flyby Attack".

How do most DMs deal with warlocks? At higher levels the invisibility is easy to beat, and flight isn't as big a deal, but at low levels I can see it being incredibly effective to have flight and invisibility. I don't want to use absurd numbers of foes that can see invisible, but at the same time I don't want it to be a cakewalk for the flying warlock to fight whatever she likes from the relative safety of the air. Given how early a warlock can fly/be invisible whenever they like, how much adjustment does it take to handle one?

Several immediate solutions present itself to my mind:

1) Both Walk Unseen and Fell Flight are Lesser Invocations. That means she's going to have to be 8th level (or at the VERY least, 6th level if she trades in a least for a lesser at 6th). By that time a Wizard or Sorcerer can be using those same tactics (Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and Flight is 3rd)

2) She gets her first shot off, big deal. Then she's not invisible anymore (the improved invisibility invocation is a Dark, needing 16th level, by which time invisibility is almost a moot point) and can be attacked normally. A few squads of mooks armed with bows/crossbows. She shoots one of them, the other dozen or so fire a volley, some are GOING to hit, and she may end up get taken down.

3) Opponent Sorcerer of 6th level with Dispel Magic in his repitoire. Fell Flight is a Spell-Like Ability which can be dispelled with a targeted dispel magic. She may get hurt pretty badly depending on how high up she is when it stops working.

4) Fog Cloud is a 2nd level spell. You can't hit what you can't see.

5) Big mook with lots of hit points. Remember, her blast is only doing like 3d6-4d6 at this point. There's plenty of CR6 encounters that can simply shrug that off.

[Kesnit]

IIRC, she loses invisibility when she casts an EB. Any ranged attack should be able to take her out once she reappears. (Without Eldritch Spear, she only has a range of 30' - well within range of an archer.)

Edit: Ninja-ed. :smallsmile:

[MarvinMartian]

Been running a 3.5 campaign for a while now, also with warlock although with different invocations.

The main problems you will probably bump into - aside from the ones you mentioned - are their "killer" range touch attacks. Anything with high touch ac worked pretty well with me in the lower level range - and possed a decent threat level for the rest of the party.

Some out of the box ideas on your questions though:

Flight can be a limited fairly easy - indoor activities (whether brawls, dungeon crawls, etc) can balance out this fairly easily. Just as long as you dont over do it... IMO every player should have his day. Other than that you could set up some pretty neat traps with nets, webs, etc or some such to be a real pain :smallwink:

Invisibility can be overcome in lower levels with some fairly easy methods - glitterdust, sandy floors, mist, paint, etc. Just be creative with what you use so the player stays on their toes.

Anyways thats all I could think of just right now.

[Sinfire Titan]

There is a feat in Elder Evils that allows anyone to cast See Invisibility 1/day for 1 minute. Any evil character can devote themselves to an Elder Evil to get 1 bonus feat for every 5 HD the character has, and that feat can be selected as one (but it takes another feat to get). This means you can have all of your major enemies have See Invisibility up at any given opportunity they need it.

Don't do this for all enemies in the campaign, as it is easily capable of getting out of hand.

[Burley]

1) Both Walk Unseen and Fell Flight are Lesser Invocations. That means she's going to have to be 8th level (or at the VERY least, 6th level if she trades in a least for a lesser at 6th). By that time a Wizard or Sorcerer can be using those same tactics (Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and Flight is 3rd)

Invocations can only be traded for equal or lesser value. Two lessers can be obtained as soon as 8th level.
On of the things about warlocks is this: They have to cast. If they get flanked, they take damage. Also, there flying monsters in random encounters, yeah? Have them accidently stumble upon a Dire Hawk/Eagle colony, then the warlock will have to think VERY three dimensionally to avoid the Dire Hawk. Or, Dire Bats, they fly and have eco-location. Which would negate the invisibility.

The big thing to keep in mind: You wouldn't take the Fighter's weapons and armor away, nor would you steal the Cleric's healing and turn undead. Don't take away the Warlock's special abilities every time. Once is okay, but only after a few sessions when she shines with her abilities. Then, it's okay to knock her around a bit. But, never twice in a row with random encounters, and never more than twice in a row when the enemy is well informed of her abilities.
Also, the first BBEG she comes across with her abilities should only be able to negate one of these abilities, preferably the invisibility. Falling damage will really tick of a Warlock.

[Epinephrine]

Thanks, I wasn't planning on cramping her style constantly, I just want to be assured that it's not the end of the world.


Both Walk Unseen and Fell Flight are Lesser Invocations. That means she's going to have to be 8th level (or at the VERY least, 6th level if she trades in a least for a lesser at 6th). By that time a Wizard or Sorcerer can be using those same tactics (Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and Flight is 3rd)

Yes, but the difference is that she can just resume invisibility. It's like having infinitely many flight and invisibility spells around. At 5th level a wizard can fly, but only for 5 or 10 minutes in a day. A wizard is 9th level by the time he can get long duration flight, and if it's dispelled he's grounded (unless he prepares multiple copies of overland flight), and invisibility for each combat would take a spell each time a fight was suspected, and couldn't simply be on while travelling.

It's a gestalt campaign, and she's the party healer. A flying, invisible healer could be quite a nuisance, and is obviously a priority target for intelligent enemies.

[Rad]

Yes, but the difference is that she can just resume invisibility. It's like having infinitely many flight and invisibility spells around. At 5th level a wizard can fly, but only for 5 or 10 minutes in a day. A wizard is 9th level by the time he can get long duration flight, and if it's dispelled he's grounded (unless he prepares multiple copies of overland flight), and invisibility for each combat would take a spell each time a fight was suspected, and couldn't simply be on while travelling.

It's a gestalt campaign, and she's the party healer. A flying, invisible healer could be quite a nuisance, and is obviously a priority target for intelligent enemies.

I wouldn't worry about that. Once combat starts, resuming invisibility would still cost a standard action, which is usually enough of a cost to keep things balanced.

[AmberVael]

I wouldn't worry about that. Once combat starts, resuming invisibility would still cost a standard action, which is usually enough of a cost to keep things balanced.

If she's the Healer though... (I assume she uses UMD for Cure wands?)
She won't actually need to attack if she focuses on healing, and she'll be able to fly around without getting harmed, healing and helping everyone in the party.
That could be a little troublesome.

[Meat Shield]

But it also means that one of the party is doing nothing against the bad guys. To me this balances out.

And if he does attack, warlocks are pretty darn squishy - he risks two rounds of attacks for the chance to do 3 or 4d6 damage once, assuming he tries to go invisible the next round. And wouldn't he have to make a concentration check to do it?

[AmberVael]

But it also means that one of the party is doing nothing against the bad guys. To me this balances out.
Not really. A buff focused person aids against the bad guys just as much- they just have different targets.
On the other hand, it is difficult to have a buff focused Warlock, but if they're using wands...


And if he does attack, warlocks are pretty darn squishy - he risks two rounds of attacks for the chance to do 3 or 4d6 damage once, assuming he tries to go invisible the next round. And wouldn't he have to make a concentration check to do it?
Concentration check? Only if someone finds a way to interrupt their invocation use. Which would require an AOO or readied action, most likely. Since they're in the air, it seems unlikely that the first would apply...

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, it's a geastalt campaign, so one side could very well be cleric. Really, I think Warlock is one of the better secondary geastalt classes as it has alot of 24-hour buffs and some useful tricks.

[Tokiko Mima]

Making things tough for a warlock is as easy having an NPC discover the wonders of a Scout Headband (MIC) and the Ray Deflection spell (SpC pg. 166) The key issue is the flight, which is nearly impossible to take away from Warlocks, since they'll immediately recast it if you dispel it.

In general, the warlock has an easier time evading combat and remaining undetected since their magic is "always on." However, once the party encounters an intelligent foe, the warlock is very likely going to be discovered and/or reveal themselves at some point in combat. At least one or more evil minion(s) should escape at that point, since they have no chance against a foe that flies and is invisible. In subsequent battles any minions sent against the party should at minimum be specially prepared with arrows hooked to lengths of rope, dragging the warlock down to the ground forcibly, or magic that accomplishes the same.

[imperialspectre]

If the character is planning to focus on buffs and healing, it makes sense that they would want to be highly survivable. Due to the action economy inherent in spending even at-will abilities, the warlock will have to be fairly careful not to draw attention to him/herself. I don't think there would be any major problem.

Considering it's a gestalt campaign, what are the rest of your players going with? A warlock//(anything but factotum, rogue, or full caster) is usually going to be quite modestly powered compared to the typical gestalt characters, which tend to have really strong overall capabilities and defenses.

[Eldran]

I'll be running my first ever party with a warlock in it, and she will likely select Walk Unseen and Fell Flight among her invocations, and is expressing interest in the feat "Flyby Attack".


On a sidenote ... If she is planning to use ranged attacks during flight, she willhardly need to use the Feat "Flyby Attack". That one becomes important if you want to swoop down, attack in melee and fly up again.

A Warlock Player in a recent campaign of mine also tried to take the feat, is asked if he was going to use melee attacks, he said no and realized himself that he was signing on for an unnecessary feat.

[Burley]

If you really want to keep her from relying on the powers, or from her becoming a cocky powerhouse: Have an NPC warlock pop in on random encounters. He needs See the Unseen and Flee the Scene. He can snipe her and then dip. It'll make for a great BBEG later, too. (Maybe he believes in a Highlander type scenario with Warlocks.)

[AmberVael]

Well, it's a geastalt campaign, so one side could very well be cleric. Really, I think Warlock is one of the better secondary geastalt classes as it has alot of 24-hour buffs and some useful tricks.

Ah, I missed that. Yes, that could make a buffing strategy quite workable and effective, really.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. At that level, enemy spellcasters and enemies in general can have ways to deal with both flying and invisible opponents, so while that combination certainly is very protective, it won't end the world by any means.

I mean really, negating her protection is as easy as Deformity (Eyes) on a guy with a bow. It's that simple. Casters can cast See Invisibility. *shrug*

[Epinephrine]

Ok, thanks all - I guess by 6th/8th level it won't be too bad, I just had visions of her being virtually untouchable without me taking specific aim at her. Haven't run a game in a long time.


Considering it's a gestalt campaign, what are the rest of your players going with? A warlock//(anything but factotum, rogue, or full caster) is usually going to be quite modestly powered compared to the typical gestalt characters, which tend to have really strong overall capabilities and defenses.

Warblade//Artificer (Dwarf craftperson/combatant/trapfinder)

Shadowcaster//Unarmed Swordsage (Human monk-type with study of shadow powers)

Celestial Warlock//Cleric (Angelic healer, smiter of undead)

Ranger//Bard (Tracker type, buffs and thrown weapons)

The Ranger//Bard will be going with War Weaver later, for some potent party-wide effects, and will pick up some levels of wilderness rogue to enter into Whisperknife.

The Warlock//Cleric is looking at Servant of Pelor.

The shadowcaster hasn't decided yet, but is thinking of the shadow prestige classes, or possibly the Shadow Sun Ninja class on the Swordsage side.

The warblade has asked if I can remove the racial requirement for the Eternal Blade PrC, as he likes the idea of a dwarf communing with his ancestors to progress his martial training.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Keep in mind, all the healing spells have a range of Touch, so that pretty much negates her flying right there if she's going to be having to act as party healer, and severely limits her sniping ability.

For all that everyone has some kind of arcane spellcasting class (warlock, artificer, bard), no one has either wizard or sorcerer, which does kind of limit the higher-end arcane utility (no one has Teleport, for example). Heck, unless the lock picks up some invocations, you don't have a lot of energy-based damage either (fire/acid/cold/lightning) for exploiting various weaknesses.

To be honest, the ranger/bard looks like the weakest of the bunch so far. Two of the others have ToB classes and Clerics can be quite powerful if properly used.

I'm going to bet the lock/cleric is going to go Radiant Servant of Pelor, which means she could end up DMM Persisting her way into ClericZilla with the right feats.

[Epinephrine]

Keep in mind, all the healing spells have a range of Touch, so that pretty much negates her flying right there if she's going to be having to act as party healer, and severely limits her sniping ability.

I think that's the point of Flyby Attack - it reads:
"When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. "

Which allows her to (for example) move down, cast a touch spell (standard action), and move back up. On 25' of movement you can drop 10' (costs 5')and fly back up 10' (costs 20'); on 50' movement you can drop 20' and fly back up 20'. Improving your flight to perfect would allow you to climb more easily, so one could drop 20' and climb 20' on 30' of movement. Easy to get to an ally and back out of melee after casting a spell.


To be honest, the ranger/bard looks like the weakest of the bunch so far. Two of the others have ToB classes and Clerics can be quite powerful if properly used.
The Ranger/Bard is likely the weakest, but War Weaver will allow him to cast spells and buff or heal the whole party with a single spell. Quiescent Weaving could also be useful for having emergency spells pre-loaded for the whole party, which can be released as a move action. Having Greater Invisibility and Freedom of Movement in the weave, and releasing them with a move action to affect the whole party could be handy.

[ChaosDefender24]

Winged template or, um, anything with ranged attacks

The peashooter also known as an eldritch blast will not out-damage anything that's truly focused on damaging stuff.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think that's the point of Flyby Attack - it reads:
"When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. "

Which allows her to (for example) move down, cast a touch spell (standard action), and move back up. On 25' of movement you can drop 10' (costs 5')and fly back up 10' (costs 20'); on 50' movement you can drop 20' and fly back up 20'. Improving your flight to perfect would allow you to climb more easily, so one could drop 20' and climb 20' on 30' of movement. Easy to get to an ally and back out of melee after casting a spell.
Fine, but that's one turn she isn't sniping, and is no longer invisible. So either she has to blow yet another turn to re-invisible, or she's just become the primary target of anyone with a ranged weapon.



The Ranger/Bard is likely the weakest, but War Weaver will allow him to cast spells and buff or heal the whole party with a single spell. Quiescent Weaving could also be useful for having emergency spells pre-loaded for the whole party, which can be released as a move action. Having Greater Invisibility and Freedom of Movement in the weave, and releasing them with a move action to affect the whole party could be handy.

True, War Weaver is a fun class. Greater Invis + Freedom of Movement + Good Hope + Haste = lots of fun. Then, of course, follow that move action with the standard action of casting Slow on the opponents. Good times.

[Duke of URL]

Yes, but the difference is that she can just resume invisibility. It's like having infinitely many flight and invisibility spells around.

The key trade-off for a Warlock is that while what they can do, they can do as often as they have actions available to do so, but at the same time, they are very limited in what they can do at all. A Warlock choosing flight and invisibility has eschewed options that might make her a better status-dealer or battlefield controller.

[AmberVael]

Fine, but that's one turn she isn't sniping, and is no longer invisible. So either she has to blow yet another turn to re-invisible, or she's just become the primary target of anyone with a ranged weapon.

Wrong. She doesn't become uninvisible, because she isn't attacking, she's buffing/healing, which doesn't dispel your invisibility.

That's the beauty of what she's doing- she gets the ability to fly, and turn invisible. She then uses Flyby attack to make it so she keeps her advantage of flight, even while taking touch based actions, and uses buffing or indirect spells which don't negate her invisibility, thus keeping her flying and invisible for an entire encounter.

[Starbuck_II]

Wrong. She doesn't become uninvisible, because she isn't attacking, she's buffing/healing, which doesn't dispel your invisibility.

That's the beauty of what she's doing- she gets the ability to fly, and turn invisible. She then uses Flyby attack to make it so she keeps her advantage of flight, even while taking touch based actions, and uses buffing or indirect spells which don't negate her invisibility, thus keeping her flying and invisible for an entire encounter.

True, you can attack while invisible: you can't attack foes while invisible though (yes, it says foes).

This is why you can sunder/attack objects and stay invisible as it isn't a foe.

[AmberVael]

True, you can attack while invisible: you can't attack foes while invisible though (yes, it says foes).

This is why you can sunder/attack objects and stay invisible as it isn't a foe.
What you say is true, but it has no relevance to my argument at all, so I have to wonder why you even quoted me.

My argument is that she's not attacking at all. She's casting Cure Light Wounds, or say... Bless, or maybe Bull's strength. These do not fall under Invisibility's definition of an attack, so not only is she not attacking a foe, she's not attacking period.

[imperialspectre]

Warblade//Artificer (Dwarf craftperson/combatant/trapfinder)

Shadowcaster//Unarmed Swordsage (Human monk-type with study of shadow powers)

Celestial Warlock//Cleric (Angelic healer, smiter of undead)

Ranger//Bard (Tracker type, buffs and thrown weapons)

The Ranger//Bard will be going with War Weaver later, for some potent party-wide effects, and will pick up some levels of wilderness rogue to enter into Whisperknife.

The Warlock//Cleric is looking at Servant of Pelor.

The shadowcaster hasn't decided yet, but is thinking of the shadow prestige classes, or possibly the Shadow Sun Ninja class on the Swordsage side.

The warblade has asked if I can remove the racial requirement for the Eternal Blade PrC, as he likes the idea of a dwarf communing with his ancestors to progress his martial training.

As was already said, the warlock could well turn into a pretty capable ClericZilla...but the rest of the party looks pretty effective, and it sounds like both the ranger and the warlock are looking at being fairly effective (but not broken) support characters.

Looks like a powerful party, but overall pretty well balanced.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also a simple solution: Area Effect.

If you've got an opponent sorcerer with Fireball, she may well be caught in the blast whilst trying to heal he friends.

It doesn't care if she's invisible.