Sides

[Shanty Man]

How many actually are there? The roach in 548 said that there were "at least 9" but the other roach said that we (the readers) don't know about all of them yet.

So just give me yore thoughts on how many there are.

[Shanty Man]

Here are the one's that I can see:

The order of the stick,
The Paladins
The Linear Guild
Xykon's Gang
The theaves Guild
Kubota (defeted)
Um... That's it!

Still at least three to go (unless you can find fault with any of mine)

[Dreamthiev]

Belkar's on his own side. Also there's Sabine's dark masters she went to report to.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Xykon is on his own side...Redcloak and the Hobgoblins just happen to share an interest in the gates.

[Finwe]

OOTS
Belkar?
V?
Xykon
Redcloak
Tyrinnar
Linear Guild
Sabine's Masters
Azure City survivors
Kobuta
Thieves' guild


Among others...

[BRC]

THe Demon Roach was reffering to the legendary 9 sided dice, thought impossible by all.

[Dreamthiev]

THe Demon Roach was reffering to the legendary 9 sided dice, thought impossible by all.

Nine sided die (http://www.collectionbuddy.com/items/dice-metal-aluminum-d9-bear-cub-machine-01)

[Salty]

I don't think the thieves' guild is actually going to end up fighting for the gates. They seem to be too small. To me, they just seem like an encounter scaled down to fit the party that's against them. Just my input.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I think the roaches were referring to the nine alignments. Lawful Good Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral... you get the idea.

That would make the most sense, as the roaches are mostly used to make metagame/4th wall breaking comments.

[d'Bwobsling]

I don't think the roaches meant.

[Warlord JK]

I don't remember this comment by the roaches, but it could have been referring to many things, so we will never know unless rich explicitly tells us.

[Zevox]

For those who don't remember the comment, it's here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), pannel 7.

Hobgoblin Cleric: But... aren't we all on the same side?
Redcloak: That is a complicated question. How many "sides" are there in this conflict anyway? Three? Four? More?
Roach 1: I count at least nine.
Roach 2: Shh! They don't know about some of those yet!

Based on that, I really doubt they were refering to the nine alignments. The second Roach's comment would make absolutely no sense in that case, and in any event it would be a pretty unusual tangent to take from the original context of the conversation.

By my reconning, at least as far the comic's major conflict over the gates goes, we have for certain:

- The Order of the Stick
- Team Evil (Xykon, Tsukiko, underlings)
- The Goblins (Redcloak, underlings, generally also part of Team Evil)
- The Linear Guild
- The Sapphire Guard (generally allies of the Order of the Stick)
- Sabine's infernal masters (potential future allies/masters of the Linear Guild)

Potential others if we're looking at the comic more generally include:

- Kuobota/potentially other rebellious nobles.
- The Azure City Resistance
- The Greysky City Thieves' Guild
- Lord Tyrrinar & his realm (potentially in the future anyway)
- The Dwarves (of Durkon's homeland, potentially in the future)
- The Elves (of V's homeland, potentially in the future. Didn't the Giant say somewhere that we would eventually meet V's mate, after all?)
- Ex-Linear Guild Members (Hilgya, Leeky, and Pompei still live, and could in theory return later in the story.)

I see some others counting certain individuals as being their own "side" in things, but personally, I see that as pushing it too far. All of them are at least somewhat aligned with one of the larger groups of the story - Belkar and V with the Order, Xykon with Tsukiko and the Goblins - and until and unless they actually permanently split with the rest of their group, I'd not classify them as their own independent side.

Zevox

[Boogastreehouse]

Here's the break-down as I see it.

The groups and individuals I have listed as pawns aren't necessarily literally pawns, but they are in the position to be manipulated by others while they are pursuing their own goals.

Pawns:

The Order of the Stick--like most heroes, they will be tricked and manipulated right up until the moment when they save the world. While they are united in protecting the Gates, many of the members of this group are influenced by outside forces (Roy's vow to defeat Xykon, Haley's desire to free her father, Durkon's devotion to Thor, etc...) which will influence their actions.

The Linear Guild--a short-sighted group, but powerful enough to be valuable pawns.

The Theives Guild--a short-sighted group, but powerful enough to be valuable pawns.

The Goblin Nation--a short-sighted group, but powerful enough to be valuable pawns.

Kobuta--a short-sighted douche, but powerful enough to be a valuable pawn.

Wacky Old Dude Hinjo--and his order of Paladins. Back when Lord Shojo was in charge of them, and they had the resources of Azure City at their disposal, I would have put them in the "Power-Players and Wild Cards" list.

O-Chul--who gets his own entry because he is in the position to really have an influence on the Monster in Darkness. Plus he's really cool.


Power-Players and Wild Cards:

Redcloak --A powerful cleric who's loyalty to both his fellow Goblins and to his deity, the Dark One, may or may not put him in the position to have to make a difficult choice in the future.

The Monster in Darkness --I have a theory about this one tMiD is the child/spawn of the Dark One.

Vaarsuvius --who might, for now at least, be considered independent from the order.

Belkar --far from powerful, it seems likely that he will be an important wild card before he dies.

The Oracle --I don't think he has a "side" really, except maybe Tiamat's (ie The God's) side, but I am very curious about who those teleporting Lizard Folk/Troglodytes where working for. "Say hello to your boss for me."

Tyrinnar --who may or may not be Nale and Elan's father, but who has been referred to by name, which suggests to me that we will be seeing an appearance by him in the future.

Soon's Original Adventuring Party--Whether any of them are still alive is uncertain (unless I missed something), but the defenses they erected to guard the gates are still intact (except for the ones that aren't).



Now we have the big players:

Xykon --the lich who wants to take control of the gates, mainly just because he can.

The Gods --beings who want to keep the Snarl imprisoned, for their own protection and incidentally for the benefit of the world.

The Snarl --a creature that wants to unmake the world.

The Demons--some or all of whom command the allegiance of Sabine, now know of the gates that imprison the Snarl. They want to spread evil, but it is uncertain as to what they intend to do with this information. It is also uncertain if they are unified in their pursuits, or if some demons might be at odds with others.

Then there's the Dark One that Redcloak worships. I have yet to read any of the material not online (Start of Darkness, etc...) but I have gleaned from other people's comments that the Dark One wants to see the Snarl unmake civilization. Now that the Dark One is a god, he expects to be able to survive the destruction and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.

Did I miss anyone?

Edit: Whoops! It appears that Zevox is an awesome ninja, and beat me to the all-encompassing-big-list-punch! I may decide later to use ideas from his/her excellent list to improve my own.

[Lamech]

Hmm... the nine sides I would guess are

1)Order of the Stick

2)Linear guild

3)Xykon, MitD, and Tsukiko.

4)Redcloak, and his goblins:
SoD inside
Redcloak is mearly using Xykon to complete the rituals. Once thats done Xykon can be discarded. (Well given a nice retirment, probably like divine paradise if the Dark One gets involved, assuming he behaves.) I don't think Xykon would be overly happy about this so I split up Redcloak and Xykon.

5) Sabine's overlords.

6) Kubota, and his devilish allies: They were still active at the time of the roaches. Although this is questionable, as they don't have any sort of stake in the gate as of yet.

7) Azure City refugees and the few remaining paladins : Although



And I do believe that is all the introduced sides that have a stake in this conflict. I suspect the dwarves will play a part in this simply from what I heard about origin of PC. The gods and the Snarl are possible sides as well.

[mec]

Oo, cool thread.

I disagree with Belkar having his own side. He's had plenty of opportunity to run off, but he likes the company. When Haley kicked him out of OOTS, he was stunned and did not accept his dismissal at all.

The Oracle is on some side, perhaps in conjunction with the lizard men who resurrected him and their masters. He *has* to be in it for more than the money, because he suffers regular death a lot. I think that we've been looking at the Oracle through OOTS eyes (put in money, get out prophecy) and neglecting the power wielded by someone who can see the future.

Miko Miyazaki was, arguably, on her own side.

[Mauve Shirt]

The Monster in Darkness --I have a theory about this one tMiD is the child/spawn of the Dark One.


Not to turn this into a MITD thread, but SoD says that's not possible. Redcloak would have a LOT more respect for the MITD if that was the case.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Alright so the nine sides aren't alignments... but maybe they correspond to different alignments? The number seems significant somehow.

Azure City - Lawful Good
The Order - Neutral Good
Xykon and Co. - Neutral Evil
Sabine's Masters (Possibly with Linear Guild?) - Lawful Evil
Qarr's Masters - Chaotic Evil

And I can't think of anything else.

[Spiky]

Why has nobody mentioned the Order of the Scribble, or whatever we call them?

[Boogastreehouse]

Not to turn this into a MITD thread, but SoD says that's not possible. Redcloak would have a LOT more respect for the MITD if that was the case.

Bummer. I need to get that.

[Zevox]

Why has nobody mentioned the Order of the Scribble, or whatever we call them?
Probably because they're mostly dead. Kraagor was undone by the Snarl. Soon is gone now that his gate has been destroyed. Dorukon and Lirian were (SoD spoilers) killed by Xykon, and the only chance they have of reappearing is if their souls are freed from that gem, and then they'd most likely just thank whoever freed them before moving on to the afterlife.

The only two unaccounted for are Girard and Serini, and there's a fair chance they died of old age - or perhaps from other adventuring - by now.

Zevox

[evileeyore]

Why has nobody mentioned the Order of the Scribble, or whatever we call them?

Because people are shortsighted and neither you nor I had gotten into the thread yet. :smallwink:

By my count:

1 - OotS: Out to destroy Xykon and now protect the Gates from Xykon and Redcloak. I don't see them as long term protectors of the Gates, but they are a Player.

2 - Xykon: Out to use the Gates for world Domination. Currently Master of Team Evil.

3 - Redcloak: Serving the Dark One, probably secretly happy 3 of 5 Gates are gone. A Player, in both Team Evil and the Dark One's plans.

4 - The Linear Guild: Now with Gate controlling kung-fu grip! Nale has no real purpose in the Gates other than to satisfy his desire to be a Major Player, Sabine serves her Masters in the Nine Hells/Abyss.

5 - Sapphire Gaurd: Formed to protect the Azure City Gate, now fractured. Might still be a Player overall, likely to send Paladins to take the remaining Gates and fortify the destroyed ones.

6 - The Order of the Squiggle: Onec Major Players, split. Possibily only the Sapphire Guard and Girard Draketooth remian? Maybe Serini Toormuck is still kicking it old school adventurer style. Once and (possibly) future Players, but not in the game right now.

7 - The Old Gods: Masters of the Game, they move the pieces to keep the Snarl imprisoned and the old world in one piece.

8 - New Gods: As we know some of the new kids on the block want to have a hand in shaping the New World Order. To that end the old world must go.

9 - The Snarl: it wants out of prison. It wants to kill. Simple ne?

[Prowl]

I'm pretty sure Xykon and the goblins count as one side due to events in SoD that bind Redcloak to Xykon, and their activities thereafter that have them functioning as a single side.

[SPoD]

I think a "side" in this case means a group with a common goal. If you examine what the actual goals of each group are, you can see that several allied groups do not share the exact same purpose:

1.) The Order of the Stick: Wants to stop the Snarl at any cost other than destroying the world.

2.) Sapphire Guard/Azurites: Wants to stop the Snarl, but also wants to save its people and reconquer Azure City; is often torn between the two.

3.) The Order of the Scribble: Wanted to stop the Snarl, but also wanted to avoid their own interpersonal struggles rather than work together.

4.) The Gods: Want to stop the Snarl, but are willing to destroy the world as a last resort so they can weave a new prison for it. (Clashes considerably with most mortals on that point...)

5.) Redcloak/The Dark One: Wants to use the Snarl to blackmail the gods into giving goblins a decent shake.

6.) Xykon/Tsukiko: Wants to use the Snarl to directly conquer the entire world.

7.) The Linear Guild: Wants to use the Snarl to prove that Nale is better than Elan/Nale's father. (Note that his may end up coinciding with someone else's plan to use the Snarl, such as...)

8.) Sabine's Masters: Wants to use the Snarl to tip the balance in the cosmic battle between Good and Evil.

9.) Wild Card: A group that has not been introduced yet, per the roach's comment. Or, a group that we do not know will be after the gates, such as Julio Scoundrel's crew or something off-the-wall like that.

[Eloel]

That 9th side could be Snarl itself...

[SPoD]

That 9th side could be Snarl itself...

Only if the Snarl has a means of projecting its influence into the world, such as a cult or something. Which it might have, but we haven't seen it yet. The conflict is over the Gates, after all, and it can't do anything until the Gates are destroyed--at which point the conflict for the Gates is over!

[Raging Gene Ray]

I don't think the roaches meant.

And I don't think the roaches meant, either. I think it was just a random, off the cuff response to Redcloak's comment. That is what the roaches do, provide witty asides when it would make no sense for anyone else to.

[NerfTW]

I'm pretty sure Xykon and the goblins count as one side due to events in SoD that bind Redcloak to Xykon, and their activities thereafter that have them functioning as a single side.

That would make no sense in both the context of the conversation (Redcloak states that he is on the same "side" as Xykon in one sense but not in another), and due to the fact that the Dark One has distinctly different goals in mind than Xykon.

The Snarl might be a side, but remember that it's pure chaos, and can't plan or perceive other's plans.

Redcloak's statement is that the definition of "sides" is murky, due to the different reasons people have for being in the conflict. My guess is:

The Order
Any remaining Scribble members (Dorukon and Lirian can still be raised if the gem is destroyed, and Girard's fate is unkown)
Xykon and those loyal to him. (Tsukiko and the MitD)
Redcloak and the Dark One, who are deceiving Xykon about controlling the gates.
Nale and the Linear Guild
Quarr and Kabuto, now dead
Lord Tyrinar is likely to be involved
The Azure City Resistance has a vested intrest in regaining control of a gate
Eugene, who's only purpose in this struggle is to destroy Xykon and get into Heaven.

[Vagnarok]

And I don't think the roaches meant, either. I think it was just a random, off the cuff response to Redcloak's comment. That is what the roaches do, provide witty asides when it would make no sense for anyone else to.

I'm not sure if the roach's comments were to be taken seriously, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant chose to foreshadow like that. It's a pretty common device.

[Prowl]

I think perhaps there's some hair-splitting on goals to contrive extra sides. Remember, we don't know about some of those sides yet. If we are going to split hairs like that, the Order of the Stick alone could constitute several sides - one which aims to secure the gates, V's aim of attaining ultimate cosmic power, Belkar's goal of simply killing a lot of things, Haley's to free her father.

For all practical intents and purposes, Xykon and the goblins constitute one side, which is known as "Team Evil", the goal of which is to seize and control a gate. That Xykon and Redcloak have totally different expectations of what is to happen afterwards doesn't really change the fact that they are working together towards a common goal until then.

But rather than get into a detailed enumeration of the sides, let me just point out that what constitutes a side is intentionally ambiguous, as is noted in the conversation between Jirix and Redcloak that the roaches were commenting on.

Personally, I would say that any discrete leader of a group would have to be the definition of a side. Redcloak takes orders from Xykon (reluctantly and not totally faithfully, perhaps, but he does so) and therefore they are on the same side.

Then we have the question of how large a group has to be in order to constitute a side. Are the six members of OotS large enough to be considered a side in a war? Are the three permanent and living members of the Linear Guild enough to constitute a side?

It's hard to answer a question of 'how many sides are there' before coming to an agreement of what we mean when we say 'side'. So the first question to answer is: 'What is the definition of a side?'

[Eloel]

Quarr and Kabuto, now dead



Kubota you mean? Kabuto is the pokemon.

[ShellBullet]

Kabuto is the pokemon.

He is also ninja and there is robot pilot named Kouji Kabuto...Was there any other Kabutos?

[Assassin89]

Kabuto is the pokemon.

Kabuto also means helmet in Japanese.

[Raging Gene Ray]

...and Kubota is the name of a tractor corporation...Track...Tore.

He tore the Order apart while silently Tracking them.

Think about it.