Fighter archers

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I've been wondering about this for some time now and since the last monk thread has quieted down I though it was time for a new class thread(just kidding).
Anyway the problem is this: everybody agrees that fighters are generally on the bottom of the power scale, but what people can't seem to agree on is if archer fighters are "among the three powerful fighter builds" or "are using a sub-par style to-begin-with", so what is it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Stolen from my post in the other Archery thread:
In D&D the easiest way to kill the enemy is with bonus damage. TWF characters do it with bonus damage+lots of attacks, THF characters do it with PA and multipliers.

Bows generally don't have nearly enough damage. Swift Hunters get around this with Skirmish+lots of attacks from Splitting. Clerics have all of their standard buffs to boost Str to the point where it's almost bonus damage in it's own right. Archerfisters have Cleric-esque buff levels, on top of Ranger spells. The key is finding a way to boost damage per turn into the stratosphere, so that you don't become a Monk(enemies can't hurt you, but since you don't do anything they don't care).Note the lack of a mention for Fighters in that post. They lack any real good way to hurt the enemy with a bow. If you want to kill something, you have to wipe out it's HP. Bows really aren't capable of that without something to help. Fighters without PA can't really hurt anyone. PA doesn't work with bows. Hence, Fighters have a lot of trouble as a good archer. It's possible, but not easy. If you want that flavor, play a homebrewed ToBer.

[Talic]

If you're talking about ranged combat, rather than archery, I submit that thrown weapons are better, despite the short range.

weakest parts of thrown weapons, though is that they're usually usable no more than 1 time a round, even with returning.

Cue Brutal Throw and Power Throw. Make that one count. But that's not enough? Ok.

Enter the TOB, just a touch. 1 level of warblade (or 2 feats out of the book) is enough to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade.

Level 2? Treat ranged attacks as melee? Yes please.

Level 4? Returns instantly, giving you full attack with a single enchanted weapon. Now we're getting somewhere.
Level 10? Attack an entire battlefield at once.

Now, we're approaching versatility. Anything else?

[shadow_archmagi]

If you're talking about ranged combat, rather than archery, I submit that thrown weapons are better, despite the short range.

weakest parts of thrown weapons, though is that they're usually usable no more than 1 time a round, even with returning.

Cue Brutal Throw and Power Throw. Make that one count. But that's not enough? Ok.

Enter the TOB, just a touch. 1 level of warblade (or 2 feats out of the book) is enough to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade.

Level 2? Treat ranged attacks as melee? Yes please.

Level 4? Returns instantly, giving you full attack with a single enchanted weapon. Now we're getting somewhere.
Level 10? Attack an entire battlefield at once.

Now, we're approaching versatility. Anything else?

Don't forget tossing in some whatwasthatclass so your can TRIP an entire battlefield at once.

[Eldariel]

It's true that Archery tends to need Magic or some high class bonuses to be worthwhile. Further, for example Skirmish- and Sneak Attack-based Archer-builds are completely unable to utilize the one advantage Archery actually has - range. That makes the more popular Archer-builds quite poor Archers; they can rack up damage, but only at a Charge distance (of course, terrain provides cover, but they're still perfectly targetable with spells and such).

The only real solution I've found for non-magical archers is making Eternal Blade Archers, who have those extra attacks and Int-synergies to add to their Archery, along with Knowledge Devotion (really, that feat is good enough that even a Fighter Archer who can make full use out of it works - of course, they can't afford to max Spot and Hide after that so they'll still be mediocre in archery). Of course, that doesn't help Fighters any.

[Talic]

There's also rogue archers.

Halfling rogue archer with Races of the Wild Sub levels can, at level 10, have an impressive sniping ability.

Using Rapid Reload, a Light Crossbow, and the feat that allows crossbow sneak attacks to 60 feet, and improved sniping, and, provided you sneak from 60 feet, with rapid shot, you can make the following:

Full attack + 1 extra, sniping. (halfling 10 master sniper allows one or more attacks while hiding, followed by a free action hide at -10, instead of -20).

Effectively a +0 penalty for hide. (-10 for snipe +4 for able sniper +6 for range). Add in woodland archer, and you can follow up in later rounds with either:

1) a full attack, a move, and then a free hide (woodland archer allows, if you sniped successfully last round to snipe, move as a free action. Then halfling lets you hide as a free action).

2) a single attack, and a double move.

All with full sneak attack, if within 60 feet.

[Matthew]

I seem to remember Greater Many Shot being key to the fighter archer build. Getting strength to contribute can be a bit of a pain, on account of the whole "Mighty Bow" issue.

Fighter 6 AB 6(9), AC 15(17), HP 6d10+6,
Attributes: Strength 14, Dexterity 16, Constitution 13, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 10, Charisma 8,
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, [Many Shot], [Greater Many Shot],

Unless you start off with better statistics than elite array you will need magic to up your character's dexterity to 17 to qualify for these last two feats, but with 13,000 GP to play around with, you should be fine. You'll have three feats from levelling to spend, before race is considered.

Probably best to rely on magic arrows until your character has strength 20 or so, then invest in a mighty magic bow of some sort.

[Kaiyanwang]

If you go archer fighter, or multiclass rogue fighter even better, remember the alternative class feature for fighters in Drow of the Underdark. It allows to add dexterity modifier as competence bonus on damage rolls against flat-footed opponents. Maybe you find some combo with sniping and so on.

I hope can be useful. :smallwink:

[Starbuck_II]

I seem to remember Greater Many Shot being key to the fighter archer build. Getting strength to contribute can be a bit of a pain, on account of the whole "Mighty Bow" issue.

Fighter 6 AB 6(9), AC 15(17), HP 6d10+6,
Attributes: Strength 14, Dexterity 16, Constitution 13, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 10, Charisma 8,
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, [Many Shot], [Greater Many Shot],

Unless you start off with better statistics than elite array you will need magic to up your character's dexterity to 17 to qualify for these last two feats, but with 13,000 GP to play around with, you should be fine. You'll have three feats from levelling to spend, before race is considered.

Probably best to rely on magic arrows until your character has strength 20 or so, then invest in a mighty magic bow of some sort.

You want Splitting Enchancement for the bow: so you an extra attack (arrow, whatever) with each arrow.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You want Splitting Enchancement for the bow: so you an extra attack (arrow, whatever) with each arrow.Too expensive. It's +2, meaning at least 18,000 GP.

[Matthew]

You want Splitting Enchancement for the bow: so you an extra attack (arrow, whatever) with each arrow.

Does that appear anywhere outside of Champions of Ruin?



Too expensive. It's +2, meaning at least 18,000 GP.

I hear tell it may even be underpriced compared to a speed enhancement, which is a fair point. Or maybe speed enhancements are over priced... :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Speed partially replicates a level 3 spell. That should be +1 bonus, not +3. I've never seen anyone get a Speed-weapon; it's good for mooks without casters and that's about it.