Why are Aberrations seen as unnatural? (3.5, possibly other editions as well.)

[Tempest Fennac]

Why is it that Aberrations are seen as unnatural creatures in D&D? I know they are typically surreal, but I thought most of them were created in the same way as other creature types (Aboleths were among the first creatures to appear if I remember Lords of Madness correctly).

[RebelRogue]

Main Entry: ab·er·rant

1 : straying from the right or normal way
2 : deviating from the usual or natural type

It's pretty much the very definition of being an aberration!

[Tempest Fennac]

That is actually a really good point. I was thinking more about the creature type as far as D&D goes, though (the definition can be vague due to how many Magical Beasts have really weird anatomies, as well as the definition of "alien mindset" being highly subjective).

[RebelRogue]

I guess the real question is how weird/different does a creature have to be, in order to be classified as an Aberration opposed to, say, Magical Beast.

[Coplantor]

some undeads are far more aberrant than most aberrations. wierd huh?
Isnt magical beast something that is close to a real animal but posses some magical nature? Illithids are aberrations but are closer to humanoids.

[Magnor Criol]

I think it's really a fluff thing, and so it's sort of ill-defined.

Most aberrations are quite unnatural, and seem to have bodies or mindsets that simply aren't natural. I feel fairly certain that if I saw, say, a bulette in real life, I'd be plenty scared. If I saw an aboleth, however, I'd be scared and deeply unsettled by its very existence.

Many aberrations, too, have fluff about them that talks about them coming from other planes, other dimensions, other times, the like. In short, they're not from here, and thus are aberrant to that which is here.

This became more of a constant, I think, as 3.5 got older and roles got more defined. I don't think the Athach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/athach.htm) should be classed as an aberration, nor do I think it would be so if it had been made later, for MM3 or 4, say.

[Fostire]

some undeads are far more aberrant than most aberrations. wierd huh?
Isnt magical beast something that is close to a real animal but posses some magical nature? Illithids are aberrations but are closer to humanoids.

Actually the illithid is just the head, the rest of the body is human.

[Serpentine]

'cept the bits fall off.
...never quite got that bit :smallconfused:

[kamikasei]

Actually the illithid is just the head, the rest of the body is human.

Actually actually the illithid starts out as just a larva implanted into a human body, which eats the brain and transforms the rest of the body to suit it. It needs a human to start with, but it's not an illithid head on a human body - it's an illithid in one of its stages of life.

The "bits" fall off because illithid are sexless, just as the face sprouts tentacles because illithid are betentacled. They're not Goa'uld, the body is no longer human once they're through with it.

[bosssmiley]

Personal rule of thumb: Magical Beasts are usually monster mash-ups, whereas Aberrations are Lovecraftian and a bit eldritch (oh, and tentacles are mandatory, etc.).

[Totally Guy]

The "bits" fall off because illithid are sexless, just as the face sprouts tentacles because illithid are betentacled. They're not Goa'uld, the body is no longer human once they're through with it.

I never knew that. Imagine all the parties that were forced to use that as evidence of a mindflayer invasion.

"The population of the whole town is gone but they all left something behind!"
"Gosh! Mindflayers!"

[kamikasei]

If it helps scar you mind a little less, I think they're reabsorbed into the body rather than actually dropping off.

[hamishspence]

the body can still spawn tadpoles.

In drizzt book Sojourn, knee to the groin works well on illithids. But then, its really an urban myth that it only works well on men.

Where does it say illithid body's "extra bits" fall off?

[DigoDragon]

Many aberrations, too, have fluff about them that talks about them coming from other planes, other dimensions, other times, the like. In short, they're not from here, and thus are aberrant to that which is here.

This is my understanding on what an aberration is at it's core. Something that came from beyond the known cosmology of the world.

[Fostire]

Actually actually the illithid starts out as just a larva implanted into a human body, which eats the brain and transforms the rest of the body to suit it. It needs a human to start with, but it's not an illithid head on a human body - it's an illithid in one of its stages of life.

The "bits" fall off because illithid are sexless, just as the face sprouts tentacles because illithid are betentacled. They're not Goa'uld, the body is no longer human once they're through with it.

I knew about the larva stage, I didn't know the body transformed as well. But still I would say that the reason they look humanoid is because they use a human body as a base and that in reality they are a little parasitic abomination, I wouldn't classify it as humanoid.

[Kizara]

Also "it contains tentacles" is a very good working definition.

[hamishspence]

Aboleths were created when the Elder Evil Piscaethces the Blood Queen came close to the world, and life sprung up in her wake. In LoM at least.

Where She came from isn't mentioned, but 4th ed suggests they are associated with Far Realm. so this as original home for Elder Evils does make sense (not all will remain there)

Some Aberrations are the creations of mortals- Chuul, for example.

[kamikasei]

I knew about the larva stage, I didn't know the body transformed as well. But still I would say that the reason they look humanoid is because they use a human body as a base and that in reality they are a little parasitic abomination, I wouldn't classify it as humanoid.

Well... the "humanoid" type doesn't necessarily have to encompass all humanoid-shaped creatures. Once the larva is implanted and completes the transformation there no longer is a separate larva which "is" the illithid apart from the rest of the body, so I think it makes more sense to say that the entire body is now the illithid in its new form.

Bear in mind also that the body has to be human, human specifically, not just any humanoid. So it's not just the shape. It's more like a precise type of food, or ingredient.


the body can still spawn tadpoles.

That's done through the mouth, I thought. (So I should say not that they're sexless, but that they're hermaphroditic and self-fertilizing.)


Where does it say illithid body's "extra bits" fall off?

Lords of Madness - I think.


Aboleths were created when the Elder Evil Piscaethces the Blood Queen came close to the world, and life sprung up in her wake. In LoM at least.

Are you sure this was in LoM? Elder Evils weren't around yet when that was published, I thought. As I recall that book left the origins of the aboleths a mystery - which was both more effective and creepier, I think.

[Recaiden]

Abberations tend to be unnatural because they are from somewhere else, and are perfectly natural there, but are not native to the material plane. Somethings that are though shouldn't be classified as abberations, because while they would be abberant here, in DnD, they are normal, like a dog or elephant or something.

[UglyPanda]

The Core Aberrations (Try to find a unifying theme here, I sure can't):
Aboleth, Athach, Beholder, Carrion Crawler, Choker, Chuul, Cloaker, Delver, Destrachan, Drider, Ethereal Filcher, Ettercap, Gauth, Gibbering Mouther, Grick, Mimic, Mind Flayer, Naga (4 types), Otyugh, Phasm, Rust Monster, Skum, Will-O’-Wisp

[Kizara]

The Core Aberrations (Try to find a unifying theme here, I sure can't):
Aboleth, Athach, Beholder, Carrion Crawler, Choker, Chuul, Cloaker, Delver, Destrachan, Drider, Ethereal Filcher, Ettercap, Gauth, Gibbering Mouther, Grick, Mimic, Mind Flayer, Naga (4 types), Otyugh, Phasm, Rust Monster, Skum, Will-O’-Wisp


How many don't contain some kind of tentacle feature?

[hamishspence]

5 Elder Evils are listed in LoM. However, some of them are almost "abstract forces" and none are statted out.

Immediately after LoM came Champions of Ruin, and several of the major threats in that (especially Dendar the Night Serpent and Kesef the Chaos hound) are described as "elder evils"

The Elder Evils sourcebook is not the only source to mention them, merely the first to do the whole "Sign" thing, with effects over a huge area.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the explanations. I assumed that mpost of the Aberrations came from the same please as everyone else (apart from Psudonatural creatures and a couple of others).

[hamishspence]

4th ed plays up the "aberrant origin" as Far Realm for many. 3.5 ed has a mix of Created by Mortals, Created by Really Powerful Entities (that are creepier and odder than your average deity) and Emigrant from the Far Realm. Also "From Outer Space" (neogi, tsochari)

Cloakers are apparently from Far Realm, and Mind Flayers From Far Future was retconned in 4th ed to be From Far Realm.

[UglyPanda]

How many don't contain some kind of tentacle feature?
Most don't. In core, it's just Gricks, Mind Flayers, Otyughs, and Rust Monsters.

[Fostire]

Well... the "humanoid" type doesn't necessarily have to encompass all humanoid-shaped creatures. Once the larva is implanted and completes the transformation there no longer is a separate larva which "is" the illithid apart from the rest of the body, so I think it makes more sense to say that the entire body is now the illithid in its new form.

Bear in mind also that the body has to be human, human specifically, not just any humanoid. So it's not just the shape. It's more like a precise type of food, or ingredient.

I recall half-elves being used as well, but I may be wrong. I know they experiment putting the tadpoles into other races to see if they can get something but all they get are mindless beasts.

[Tempest Fennac]

What is the Alignment of the Far Planes anyway? I don't think Psudonatural creatures have a listed alignment (unless I forgot it), but the Alienist fluff suggests they are worse then the Lower Planes.

[JBento]

What is the Alignment of the Far Planes anyway? I don't think Psudonatural creatures have a listed alignment (unless I forgot it), but the Alienist fluff suggests they are worse then the Lower Planes.

As far as I can tell, they're Cthulic Mad :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. I was just wondering because the fluff definitly makes them sound incredibly evil (I'm checking Complete Arcane now).

[hamishspence]

None- not even Chaotic. However the various powerful Far Realm entities vary a lot.

Daelkyr (Xoriat is Eberron's version of Far Realm)- Evil subtype outsider-Usually NE

Uvuudaum (Epic Handbook)- Evil subtype outsider- Usually NE

Pseudonatural creatures can be whatever alignment base creature was- pseudonatural angels? would be odd but possible.

Alienists are Any Nonlawful, and there are probably other Far realm Entities. Dragon mag has a few. and MMIII has the CE odopi.

[Saph]

I vaguely remember that Lords of Madness had something explaining it. It was something along the lines that aberrations have no natural predators and tend to kill/destroy stuff for fun, and so mess up the ecosystem.

At least, I think that was what it said, if anyone who owns the book wants to check.

- Saph

[Roderick_BR]

I guess the real question is how weird/different does a creature have to be, in order to be classified as an Aberration opposed to, say, Magical Beast.
I think this comment nailed the discussion on the head.
Aberrations are seen as unnatural, because they ARE unnatural, as in, "let's pick all these weird monsters here, and call them... uh... aberrations". That's it.

Now, what makes something count as "unnatural"... beats me :smallbiggrin:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Now, what makes something count as "unnatural"... beats me :smallbiggrin:I like the 'Tentacle' answer provided earlier. 'Tentacle' seems to work.

[Epinephrine]

The "bits" fall off because illithid are sexless, just as the face sprouts tentacles because illithid are betentacled. They're not Goa'uld, the body is no longer human once they're through with it.

Awesome word. I think I'll have to work it into every discussion of cephalopods.

[Project_Mayhem]

it's easy in Eberron. Aberations are anything that the Daelkyr created or brought with them.

[GolemsVoice]

I think that what really defines abberations is the sense of Lovecraftianism that stands behind them. While of course, many magical beasts and undead are strange in their own right, what makes them different from abberations (and, admittedly, sometimes the line blurrs quite a bit) is that, while being more than natural, they are not entirely alien. Theey are something that is, or was, native to this world and was mutated by mainly magical means, meaning that something of the, -literaly, - base creature remains. Aberrations, on the other hand, are, and have never been, part of the natural order of things, they are the ultimate outsiders, wholly incomprehensible to human(oid) minds.
It is, of course, mostly the lovecraftian background that makes things abberations. When someone says: "Well, this sure is strange and twisted, but in a normal way", it's not an aberration, whereas "Wow, this stuff is really out there, my mind's spinning just from thinking about it" is a clear sign of aberrationalism.
Also, tentacles.

[puppyavenger]

I think that what really defines abberations is the sense of Lovecraftianism that stands behind them. While of course, many magical beasts and undead are strange in their own right, what makes them different from abberations (and, admittedly, sometimes the line blurrs quite a bit) is that, while being more than natural, they are not entirely alien. Theey are something that is, or was, native to this world and was mutated by mainly magical means, meaning that something of the, -literaly, - base creature remains. Aberrations, on the other hand, are, and have never been, part of the natural order of things, they are the ultimate outsiders, wholly incomprehensible to human(oid) minds.
It is, of course, mostly the lovecraftian background that makes things abberations. When someone says: "Well, this sure is strange and twisted, but in a normal way", it's not an aberration, whereas "Wow, this stuff is really out there, my mind's spinning just from thinking about it" is a clear sign of aberrationalism.
Also, tentacles.

Well, Chuls were created as a super-weapon by a mad wizard, so what makes them different then oh, 90% of magical beasts?

[bosssmiley]

Most don't. In core, it's just Gricks, Mind Flayers, Otyughs, and Rust Monsters.

...and Aboleths, and Carrion Crawlers, Chokers, and Chuuls.

You also have the related pseudopods (Gibbering Mouther, Mimic, Phasm), eyestalks (2 flavours of Beholderkin) and multi-jointed, excessively flexible limbs (Ethereal Filcher). Nagas? They're just a tentacle with a head on one end. :smallwink:

I maintain my previously stated "Aberration = tentacle" position, possibly modified to "Aberration = tentacle + attitude problem" in light of the shy and entirely inoffensive giant octopus. :smallbiggrin:

[Ethdred]

I knew about the larva stage, I didn't know the body transformed as well. But still I would say that the reason they look humanoid is because they use a human body as a base and that in reality they are a little parasitic abomination, I wouldn't classify it as humanoid.

So could they use another body as a base? I haven't read LoM or others but suddenly struck by the idea of an elephantine mind flayer.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So could they use another body as a base? I haven't read LoM or others but suddenly struck by the idea of an elephantine mind flayer.That's how you get the Half-Mindflayer template, IIRC.

[RebelRogue]

So could they use another body as a base? I haven't read LoM or others but suddenly struck by the idea of an elephantine mind flayer.
They do indeed. Githyanki and Githzerai, for instance, are two options that has been used a lot in the past. However, not all creatures are fit to host the illithid, so these races are never chosen. Ropers are the only non-humanoid creatures I remember to be possible. I suppose that makes pachyderms pretty implausible. But then again, you never know...

[Starbuck_II]

Did anyone mention Elans from XPH?

[wadledo]

Did anyone mention Elans from XPH?

Those fall under "created by mad wizard/from a different time".

Though in that case, wouldn't the Illumians aberrations?:smallconfused:

[GolemsVoice]

Well, Chuls were created as a super-weapon by a mad wizard, so what makes them different then oh, 90% of magical beasts?
That's why I said that the label doesn't always fit. I can't look it up, but wasn't some unspeakable force involved in creating the Chuul, if I remember correctly? Something that actually seperates them from Vaarsuvius favourite product of wizardry, the Owlbear?
If not, then it's purely the looks, I would say. They look nasty, and alien, and menazing. And: tentacles.

[hamishspence]

LoM says it just has to be a mammal, humanoid, Medium, not too heavy or light, for implantation.

Half illithids of the implantation type are in Fiend Folio- shock trooper lizardmen ones.

Half-illithids of the Weird Experiment type are in Underdark, (Faerun book, but works well for Greyhawk and Eberron too)

Chuuls get covered in Dragon, though that version of their backstory isn't quite the same, though very similar.

the borderline between Magical Beast and Aberration can be a little blurred at times. Could just be arbitrary on some occasions.

[AKA_Bait]

the borderline between Magical Beast and Aberration can be a little blurred at times. Could just be arbitrary on some occasions.

Lets also not forget that the borderline between Outsider and Aberration can get a bit blurry too.

Basically, why are these things aberrations? For the same reason that things created with negative energy inherently evil (usually). The designers just decided that way. There really doesn't need to be all that much logic to it. I think the original defition was basically "ewwww, that's icky."

[hamishspence]

maybe "from the far realm" means outsider, "Created thanks to Far realm influence" means aberration, and long-standing expatriates become aberrations.

If the creator of the chuuls was an alienist, might account for them.

[AKA_Bait]

maybe "from the far realm" means outsider, "Created thanks to Far realm influence" means aberration, and long-standing expatriates become aberrations.

If the creator of the chuuls was an alienist, might account for them.

Yeah but... Will-O'-Wisps?

[puppyavenger]

Yeah but... Will-O'-Wisps?

if anything, shouldn't those be fey?

[AKA_Bait]

if anything, shouldn't those be fey?

You'd think, but nope. Small Aberration. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm)

[Zeta Kai]

I've always thought of them as Fey. Or Undead (Incorporeal).

[Tempest Fennac]

I would have thought Fey looking at their mythological origins.

[hamishspence]

Dragon mag mythological origin story for them is also somewhat fey-ish.

However, their biology seems pretty aberrant in the magazine version.

[chiasaur11]

Well, Chuls were created as a super-weapon by a mad wizard, so what makes them different then oh, 90% of magical beasts?

Named after O-Chul.

Now that is an abberation. Most folks aren't that stupid.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Dragon mag mythological origin story for them is also somewhat fey-ish.

However, their biology seems pretty aberrant in the magazine version.

There isn't a 'dragon magazine' version of something. This has nothing to do with this topic but this has annoyed me for a while Paizo made official D&D 3.5 and Wizards sanctioned mechanics and fluff. There is no 'Dragon magazine version' theres the 'unless you say otherwise, this is how it is' version. :smallmad:

[Thurbane]

Personal rule of thumb: Magical Beasts are usually monster mash-ups, whereas Aberrations are Lovecraftian and a bit eldritch (oh, and tentacles are mandatory, etc.).
Well said.

That's pretty much how I look at it.

[AslanCross]

Where does it say illithid body's "extra bits" fall off?

Lords of Madness doesn't say an illithid's genitals fall off. It only says illithids spawn asexually.

Anyway, Lords of Madness says the following about aberrations:
Inimical to Nature: No natural predators, and act in way that disrupts the natural order. By this definition, modern human beings are aberrations. <_<
It seems, however, that this also factors in their ability to corrupt their environment to their needs: for example, illithids reproduce by body-snatching, while aboleths enslave humanoids and turn them into slime dudes.
Of course, this doesn't really explain the Athach and other uh, less alien aberrations. It's just a three-armed giant. On the other hand, we do know that Aboleths are not from this time (they're from an ancient past that precedes this reality), while Illithids are from the future. Thus, the present natural order cannot really deal with them---they're superior to practically any predator found in nature, and they have the ability to corrupt their environment.

Inhuman: They have no morality, period. To humanoids they're evil, though they don't see themselves as such.

These definitions are rather weak, IMO, and only really cover the major aberration races: Aboleths, beholders and illithids. Thus I think the "has tentacles" definition is the clearest.

They're far more clearly defined in 4E, though: they're either from the Far Realm or have been corrupted by the Far Realm.

[Thurbane]

I also think aberrations should be insectoid or mollusk-like in some parts, or some kind of amphibian/invertebrate hybrid. Slimey, and looking like they might well have evolved at the bottom of an ocean. Roper and darkmantle should definitely be aberrations, IMHO.

Magical beast should be reserved for creatures with (mostly) mammalian, reptilian or avian (and other vertebrates, warm- and cold-blooded) features.

Actually, here's an expanded list of creatures from the SRD that I would redefine:


Magical Beasts

Ankheg* Vermin
Aranea Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Darkmantle Aberration
Digester Aberration
Ethereal Marauder Aberration (Extraplanar)
Frost Worm Aberration
Gray Render Aberration
Phase Spider Aberration
Purple Worm* Vermin
Remorhaz Aberration
Roper Aberration
Spider Eater Aberration
Stirge* Vermin
Hellwasp Swarm Aberration (Extraplanar)
Yrthak Aberration

Aberrations

Athach Monstrous Humanoid
Drider Monstrous Humanoid
Ettercap Monstrous Humanoid
Nagas Magical Beast
Will-o-wisp Elemental (Air)

The ones marked with an asterisk would require a broadened definition of vermin, though...

[hamishspence]

Point is, Dragon mag ecologies have been known to be contradicted by WOTC material. So, I place Dragon Mag material slightly below WOTC material. However, I do consider it pretty useful, just, not automatically fully canon.

Kobold origin story diverges considerably from Races of the Dragon (actually, I rather prefer the Paizo version, Garl isn't quite some much of a jerk in this) but, seeing as thw WoTC material always trumps Dragon, I us it, when kobold mythology comes up.

[Tempest Fennac]

I prefer the 4th Editoon fluff to be honest (as Aslan said, a lot of the definitions could be applied to a large amount of real life humans).

[littlechicory]

Actually, here's an expanded list of creatures from the SRD that I would redefine:


Magical Beasts

Ankheg* Vermin
Aranea Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Darkmantle Aberration
Digester Aberration
Ethereal Marauder Aberration (Extraplanar)
Frost Worm Aberration
Gray Render Aberration
Phase Spider Aberration
Purple Worm* Vermin
Remorhaz Aberration
Roper Aberration
Spider Eater Aberration
Stirge* Vermin
Hellwasp Swarm Aberration (Extraplanar)
Yrthak Aberration (Air)

Aberrations

Athach Monstrous Humanoid
Drider Monstrous Humanoid
Ettercap Monstrous Humanoid
Nagas Magical Beast
Will-o-wisp Elemental

The ones marked with an asterisk would require a broadened definition of vermin, though...

I agree with some of these, disagree mildly with others, and am annoyed that you still haven't mentioned my biggest pet peeve with monster typing in general, which is that the displacer beast, which is clearly an aberration (tentacles, check! bizarre anatomy, check! supernatural abilities, check! bizarre mindset = killing random things for fun, check!), is listed instead as a magical beast.

ETA: Cleaned up some coding.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Point is, Dragon mag ecologies have been known to be contradicted by WOTC material. So, I place Dragon Mag material slightly below WOTC material. However, I do consider it pretty useful, just, not automatically fully canon.

Kobold origin story diverges considerably from Races of the Dragon (actually, I rather prefer the Paizo version, Garl isn't quite some much of a jerk in this) but, seeing as thw WoTC material always trumps Dragon, I us it, when kobold mythology comes up.

Hahaha, you realize WOTC stuff is prone to contradicting itself too, right? :smalltongue:

Besides, Dragon's fluff is usually much better for monsters. Ecology-wise at least. My appreciation of Yrthaks went up about ten notches just by it's ecology.

[Kris Strife]

Since when are Illithids from the future? In 3.5 they once had a multiplanar empire that crumbled and fell when their slaves broke free of mind control and rebelled. At least in what I've read.

[The Glyphstone]

Their 'history' was explored further in Lords of Madness. They are from the future, millions of years ahead where illithids rule the galaxy and the stars are all going dead. Some enemy then is killing all the illithids,so their solution was to travel back in time with all the survivors of their civilization, ending up a long time in our past. They enslave the gith there, building that empire you mentioned, which eventually collapses. They're not too concerned, though, because it was really just practice - they came back in time to make sure that their conquest of the universe is perfect this time around.

[Blackfang108]

Since when are Illithids from the future? In 3.5 they once had a multiplanar empire that crumbled and fell when their slaves broke free of mind control and rebelled. At least in what I've read.

True.

But:

they established the empire after travelling to the past from the end of the multiverse.

It's all in Lords of Madness.

The aboleths fear the Ilithids because they do not know the origin of their species. The Aboleth remember the origin of EVERY species except the Mind Flayers. Because the origin hasn't happened.
Possibly never will, if the Mind Flayres formed a stable time loop.

[Starbuck_II]

True.

But:

they established the empire after travelling to the past from the end of the multiverse.

It's all in Lords of Madness.

The aboleths fear the Ilithids because they do not know the origin of their species. The Aboleth remember the origin of EVERY species except the Mind Flayers. Because the origin hasn't happened.
Possibly never will, if the Mind Flayres formed a stable time loop.

The Mindflayers ancestors are the PCs possibly due to the Illithid Heritage feats in Complete Psi:
By Heritage they don't mean children, but that you are the future ancestors of the Mind Flayer race.

[Kris Strife]

To quote B&G: 'I really hate time travel'

Kinda makes playing a downer since it looks like mindflayers win though... :/

[Blackfang108]

The Mindflayers ancestors are the PCs possibly due to the Illithid Heritage feats in Complete Psi:
By Heritage they don't mean children, but that you are the future ancestors of the Mind Flayer race.

But if they hadn't come from the future in the first place, you can't be descended from mind flayers. And therefore, you cannot be the origin of the species. not to mention the "your own grandpa" jokes.

...

...

...

This is why I HATE time travel.

[Starbuck_II]

But if they hadn't come from the future in the first place, you can't be descended from mind flayers. And therefore, you cannot be the origin of the species. not to mention the "your own grandpa" jokes.

...

...

...

This is why I HATE time travel.

Wait, wha?

This is the order:

Step 1: something happened
Step 2: Illithid are created with empire
Step 3: Sun going to blow up and kill race; so they time travel back to past (most make it okay, but messed up).
Step 4: They are hideous creatures that now eat brains.

What the feat does is let be Step 1.

It doesn't matter if time travel happened: you still would be ancestor either way.

[Callos_DeTerran]

To quote B&G: 'I really hate time travel'

Kinda makes playing a downer since it looks like mindflayers win though... :/

I wouldn't worry about it too much. The various Elder Brains and mind flayers realize that things could change and they could get wiped out before their eventual conquest. All it takes is the right interference, like from the gith, which is why they are so friggin meticulous. Don't wanna mess up their own history by accidentally provoking some race to wipe them out before they assume control.

In other words..if you wanna prevent future Mindflayer pwnage of the world, go out and murder as many Elder brains/mind flayers as you can today.

[BardicDuelist]

I just wanted to say that the retcon of mind flayers made me a bit sad. My favorite part about them was that they were from the far future.

Eh, I can still use the fluff. Just like, in my games, the Blood War still exists, so does Sigil (although I don't use the great wheel), and the old alignment system (although it has no effect on game play).

[Blackfang108]

I just wanted to say that the retcon of mind flayers made me a bit sad. My favorite part about them was that they were from the far future.

Eh, I can still use the fluff. Just like, in my games, the Blood War still exists, so does Sigil (although I don't use the great wheel), and the old alignment system (although it has no effect on game play).

In all fairness, Sigil IS mentioned in 4e core. I forget where, but I think it is the DMG section on planes. It doesn't get much, but it's there.

Manual of the Planes comes out next month. I'll be VERY surprised if Sigil sin't there.

[chiasaur11]

To quote B&G: 'I really hate time travel'

Kinda makes playing a downer since it looks like mindflayers win though... :/

Ah, but something starts wiping them out.

Viva la resistance! Which, probably, is full of Kobolds. And who doesn't like Kobolds?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Ah, but something starts wiping them out.

Viva la resistance! Which, probably, is full of Kobolds. And who doesn't like Kobolds?Awesome campaign idea:The party is a squad of Kobolds, sent out by the Dragon protector of their village to wipe out all Mindflayers so they won't rule over him later on. Figuring out how to kill Minflayers as small creatures with a Str penalty would be awesome.

[littlechicory]

Awesome campaign idea:The party is a squad of Kobolds, sent out by the Dragon protector of their village to wipe out all Mindflayers so they won't rule over him later on. Figuring out how to kill Minflayers as small creatures with a Str penalty would be awesome.

Who needs Str? Go Rogue/Assassin, grab some high Con damage poison, and you're good to go against just about everybody.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Who needs Str? Go Rogue/Assassin, grab some high Con damage poison, and you're good to go against just about everybody.That is wrong in so many ways. First, Assassin is useless. You are better off in every way as a straight Rogue. Second, Poison is useless. The only enemies that will fail their saves against it are ones that would be a waste of money to use it on. Third, Str is not in any way useless against enemies that love grappling.

[Starbuck_II]

That is wrong in so many ways. First, Assassin is useless. You are better off in every way as a straight Rogue. Second, Poison is useless. The only enemies that will fail their saves against it are ones that would be a waste of money to use it on. Third, Str is not in any way useless against enemies that love grappling.

Not true, enough Fort saves and they will fail them.
It will just be extremely expensive.

[littlechicory]

Third, Str is not in any way useless against enemies that love grappling.

And an Illithid's totally going to be able to make a touch attack to initiate grapple against something the size of a large house cat. Even if it does, just use Escape Artist to get away from the grapple.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not true, enough Fort saves and they will fail them.
It will just be extremely expensive.Money=power in D&D. Poison is a sinkhole you throw your money in to make things slightly easier in the short term at the cost of gimping yourself in the long term.

[Starbuck_II]

Money=power in D&D. Poison is a sinkhole you throw your money in to make things slightly easier in the short term at the cost of gimping yourself in the long term.

Not if you get your DM to think Poisopn is a consumable. The DMG makes it very clear that Consumables get given back in cost for free.
Yes, dude, Consumables aren't taking away from Wealth per level.

I know not all DMs follow the guidelines, but if they do, then you aren't wasting money.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not if you get your DM to think Poisopn is a consumable. The DMG makes it very clear that Consumables get given back in cost for free.
Yes, dude, Consumables aren't taking away from Wealth per level.

I know not all DMs follow the guidelines, but if they do, then you aren't wasting money.But there are consumables that are much more valuable-per-gp than poison. A wand of a similar value-per-charge will be much more effective, targeting any save with more effective effects or not allowing a save.

[Dervag]

Also "it contains tentacles" is a very good working definition.Giant squid?


I also think aberrations should be insectoid or mollusk-like in some parts, or some kind of amphibian/invertebrate hybrid. Slimey, and looking like they might well have evolved at the bottom of an ocean. Roper and darkmantle should definitely be aberrations, IMHO.

Magical beast should be reserved for creatures with (mostly) mammalian, reptilian or avian (and other vertebrates, warm- and cold-blooded) features.I like your reasoning.

My feeling is that most aberrations should combine biological features from widely different life forms. For example, the way illithids spawn isn't that different from the egg-laying behavior of certain insects. But when you combine that with the tentacles of a mollusc and the bony limbs of a vertebrate, you get a creature totally foreign to Earthly biology. It combines structures from vertebrate and invertebrate life forms, and behaviors from microscopic and macroscopic creatures, in ways that simply should not work.
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To quote B&G: 'I really hate time travel'

Kinda makes playing a downer since it looks like mindflayers win though... :/Illithids are supposed to be Lovecraftian, and the works of Lovecraft are downers in exactly that way.
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I wouldn't worry about it too much. The various Elder Brains and mind flayers realize that things could change and they could get wiped out before their eventual conquest. All it takes is the right interference, like from the gith, which is why they are so friggin meticulous. Don't wanna mess up their own history by accidentally provoking some race to wipe them out before they assume control.

In other words..if you wanna prevent future Mindflayer pwnage of the world, go out and murder as many Elder brains/mind flayers as you can today.The mind flayers know this, and try to keep their origins a secret so that nobody will figure this out, right?

[AslanCross]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. The various Elder Brains and mind flayers realize that things could change and they could get wiped out before their eventual conquest. All it takes is the right interference, like from the gith, which is why they are so friggin meticulous. Don't wanna mess up their own history by accidentally provoking some race to wipe them out before they assume control.

In other words..if you wanna prevent future Mindflayer pwnage of the world, go out and murder as many Elder brains/mind flayers as you can today.

"You too can stop the inevitable Apocalypse!" Thanks to the Multiverse's patented TimeParadox technology.

Actually I remember seeing somewhere that the gith races inevitably evolve into the illithids---the irony being that giths became giths because they were enslaved by the illithids. I guess that's what happens when you time travel AND mess with the natural order.

Also, strangely enough---I don't believe the illithids win in the end. Their civilization is destroyed by some unspeakable cataclysm, which is why they go back in time. Their existence in the present is proof of their inevitable rise and defeat.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Also, strangely enough---I don't believe the illithids win in the end. Their civilization is destroyed by some unspeakable cataclysm, which is why they go back in time. Their existence in the present is proof of their inevitable rise and defeat.

...It doesn't just 'get destroyed' the rest of the multiverse is being destroyed too. To put it as LoM do 'Aboleths and Mind Flayers are the book ends in time, one at the beginning and one at the end'.

Their existence in the presence is proof that time ended and they are trying to figure out how to stop it/ensure their empire rises again.

[hamishspence]

When contradictions arise, I assume New books override old ones, and is within same book, specific overrides general.

On special occasions, I might say "different stories- all are true, whether or not they actually happened" (Fiendish Codex 2 uses this phrase)

Personally, for Kurtelmak, First-born Son of Tiamat sounds rather better than "Mortal kobold promoted at point of death after being pretty much murdered by Garl"

[Thurbane]

I agree with some of these, disagree mildly with others, and am annoyed that you still haven't mentioned my biggest pet peeve with monster typing in general, which is that the displacer beast, which is clearly an aberration (tentacles, check! bizarre anatomy, check! supernatural abilities, check! bizarre mindset = killing random things for fun, check!), is listed instead as a magical beast.
Well, I guess. I suppose I still think of the DB in 1E/2E terms (i.e. a stock standard panther with a pair of tentacles slapped on it's shoulders and some light-bending abilities) rather than the hairless monstrosity it became in 3E.

Money=power in D&D.
Also in the Real World™ :smallwink:

[Innis Cabal]

supernatural abilities, check! bizarre mindset = killing random things for fun, check!)

Humanoids can have these things to. Does that make them abberations? No.

[Jayngfet]

I find abberations stupid because creatures popping up where there are no natural predators happons all the time. Unless bullfrogs and the new common squirrel count.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Personally, for Kurtelmak, First-born Son of Tiamat sounds rather better than "Mortal kobold promoted at point of death after being pretty much murdered by Garl"He was both in RotD, IIRC. Firstborn of the Dragons, but not a god until Garl was a jack***.

[Doomsy]

The Mind Flayers actually lost in the future and had to run to the past to stand a chance at surviving. They are currently tinkering with and observing the way other empires operate to try to fix what went wrong with their own in the future, according to LoM anyway. So of course right off the bat they trigger the Gith rebellion, which may or may not be what kills them off for good in the future and forces them to flee into the past.

Way to fix the problem, squidheads.


As for aberrant stuff - I generally think that it is just as much about aberrant behavior as in biology. A displacer beast is just a jacked up hunting cat with pack behavior. It breeds, it hunts, it lives fairly normally.

Illithids, Arboleths, Grells and to an extent Beholders are pretty alien. They don't fit into the ecology, they don't fit the themes of nature at all, and they're pretty much not from around here. They don't have the same needs or drives as even magically altered beasts, or other sentient races. They rarely build empires or become massive well known powers. An evil force wants to control or destroy the world, a good force wants to save or protect it, and an aberrant force simply is. You find them in the dark corners of the world more than rampaging or conquering.

[hamishspence]

ROTD: Green dragon created him from her blood in a ritual taught her by Io.

Dragon: Hatched from an egg from the First Clutch laid by Tiamat herself.

[mostlyharmful]

But if they hadn't come from the future in the first place, you can't be descended from mind flayers. And therefore, you cannot be the origin of the species. not to mention the "your own grandpa" jokes.

...

...

...

This is why I HATE time travel.

Nah, you can resolve this sort of paradox based on your perception of time, there are a few very funcky models out there in theoretical mathematics..... what I reallllly hate is the tenses, or rather the linguistic minefield of sense-death that is talking about this stuff. You end up sounding like a grammer text book thats been put through a blender and everytime you add anouther change it all multiplies itself logarithmically....