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Jack Zander
2008-11-20, 11:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, how does the flurry of blows BAB progression work for a Fighter/Monk Gestalt character?

RebelRogue
2008-11-20, 11:35 AM
Just out of curiosity, how does the flurry of blows BAB progression work for a Fighter/Monk Gestalt character?
In general, you add another attack (initially at full BAB) but take a -2 on all the attacks. As the monk gains levels this penalty is reduced (to -1 at 5th level and 0 at 9th), and one more attack is added (at level 11).

So that's:
1st: -1/-1
2nd: +0/+0
3rd: +1/+1
4th: +2/+2
5th: +4/+4
6th: +5/+5/+0
7th: +6/+6/+1
8th: +7/+7/+2
9th: +9/+9/+4
10th: +10/+10/+5
11th: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
12th: +12/+12/+12/+7/+2
13th: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3
14th: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4
15th: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
16th: +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
Just add one to all to hits from there.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-20, 11:40 AM
So you flurry at 20th +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5?

*drooling* SURE?

Eldariel
2008-11-20, 11:42 AM
Of course. Flurry attacks are simply added to your normal attacks.

Jack Zander
2008-11-20, 11:46 AM
So you flurry at 20th +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5?

*drooling* SURE?

That's what I would assume, but since the flurry BAB progression is completely separate from normal BAB progression, I'm not sure if it works that way.

Though the table for the monk's flurry might have just been WotC's way of confusing us, because they didn't think we could handle subtracting 2 from each attack like it is worded in rapid shot, then later reducing those penalties.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-20, 11:47 AM
Of course. Flurry attacks are simply added to your normal attacks.


*Kaiyawang goes away. Homicidal maniac laughters follow.*

Telonius
2008-11-20, 11:52 AM
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.



Yep, sounds to me like RebelRogue has it right. Text trumps table. All Flurry does is let you take an extra attack at the highest bonus, with a penalty that goes away by level 9; and that Greater Flurry just lets you use an additional attack.

Note that you can only apply Strength to your weapons, not Str x 1½, even if you're using a quarterstaff two-handed. Also important is that only Monk weapons can be used in a Flurry. So no Flurrying with a Greatsword, even with Gestalt fighters.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-20, 11:55 AM
This leads to a question: I don't remember well, there is a feat allowing flurry with double weapons? Maybe Secrets of Sarlona?

Because I have a FAQ answer in mind... together with Dragon Magazine and Slashing Flurry...

Mephit
2008-11-20, 11:58 AM
Yep, sounds to me like RebelRogue has it right. Text trumps table. All Flurry does is let you take an extra attack at the highest bonus, with a penalty that goes away by level 9; and that Greater Flurry just lets you use an additional attack.

Note that you can only apply Strength to your weapons, not Str x 1½, even if you're using a quarterstaff two-handed. Also important is that only Monk weapons can be used in a Flurry. So no Flurrying with a Greatsword, even with Gestalt fighters.

There's a feat for that. Exotic Flurry it was called or something.

Jack Zander
2008-11-20, 11:59 AM
You can flurry with a double monk weapon (quarterstaff) or a weapon in each hand.

Eberron also has a few feats that allow you to flurry with a specific weapon. I think there is one for the longsword, spear and one other weapon.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-20, 12:06 PM
Ok... now look at this, from the FAQ



Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus.

When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand.

If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.


Edit: maybe is well-known but I discovered it recently :smallredface:

Telonius
2008-11-20, 12:17 PM
Right. So your fighter//monk would just add five to that, for:
16/16/16/16/11/6/1 primary and 16/11/6 off-hand. Total attack: 5 16's, 2 11's, 2 6's, and a 1.

But really, at level 20, what are you fighting that's going to be bothered by a +16 to hit?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-20, 12:20 PM
Well, let's not forget about STR bonuses to hit!

While such a character would be pretty MAD (Leaning towards STR), a level of Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce will really help.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-20, 12:22 PM
Buff, Weapon Supremacy tier.. and he shouldn't usa always the same tactic. Sometimes thrown, sometimes Leap Attack, sometimes this. Or maybe Kung Fu Genius and combat expertise feats.. pretty MAD madness anyway, I've to think about it :smallconfused:

Anyway, is +18/... not +16 (for what does matter) :smallwink:

Mojotech: The barbarian does not fit with monk..

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-20, 12:33 PM
Monk 11/ Warblade 1/ Bloodclaw Master 3//Fighter 15 with the feats TWF and Snap Kick has a full attack of +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3

Without snap kick it's +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-20, 12:34 PM
Buff, Weapon Supremacy tier.. and he shouldn't usa always the same tactic. Sometimes thrown, sometimes Leap Attack, sometimes this. Or maybe Kung Fu Genius and combat expertise feats.. pretty MAD madness anyway, I've to think about it :smallconfused:

Anyway, is +18/... not +16 (for what does matter) :smallwink:

Mojotech: The barbarian does not fit with monk..

As a one-level dip, it does - he starts as a Chaotic Fighter 1//Barbarian 1, then becomes Lawful at level 2 as a Fighter//Monk for the rest of his progression. He can't Rage anymore, but that's not why he dipped anyway, he dipped to get Pounce - which isn't lost if he is no longer chaotic.

Jack Zander
2008-11-20, 12:36 PM
If I played this character I would probably even out his ability scores and dump Charisma. He would eventually take the Kensai prestige class to make his unarmed strikes even more powerful, and his strengths would be the ability to change his tactics to be tailored to any situation.

It kind of bothers me when people say that the problem with monks is that they have conflicting class features. They are supposed to be a jack of all trades and be able to do a number of things reasonably well rather than move at 100 feet per round and pounce on someone for 10 attacks that all miss. You have to play your character intelligently. If you're against a slow enemy, spring attack. If you are against a low fortitude save guy, full attack with stunning fist. If you can't seem to hit something, use your movement to get into flanking and stop trying to punch it. Pull out your +5 Quarterstaff and quit yer whining.

Anyway, sorry for turning this thread into a monk debate (as it no doubt will become now), but it was my thread anyway and my question was answered.

*ducks and hides as the chaos begins*

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-20, 12:44 PM
Barbarian 1/Fighter 19//Monk 11/ Warblade 1/ Blood Claw Master 3/ Rogue 5

With the following feats: TWF, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

With the following items: Speed Kama

Has an attack routine at level 20 of: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

If you can sneak attack then each attack deals an additional 5d6 damage.
If you use Martial Study to learn Inferno Blade then each attack will deal an additional 3d6+14 fire damage.

Eldariel
2008-11-20, 12:44 PM
If I played this character I would probably even out his ability scores and dump Charisma. He would eventually take the Kensai prestige class to make his unarmed strikes even more powerful, and his strengths would be the ability to change his tactics to be tailored to any situation.

It kind of bothers me when people say that the problem with monks is that they have conflicting class features. They are supposed to be a jack of all trades and be able to do a number of things reasonably well rather than move at 100 feet per round and pounce on someone for 10 attacks that all miss. You have to play your character intelligently. If you're against a slow enemy, spring attack. If you are against a low fortitude save guy, full attack with stunning fist. If you can't seem to hit something, use your movement to get into flanking and stop trying to punch it. Pull out your +5 Quarterstaff and quit yer whining.

Anyway, sorry for turning this thread into a monk debate (as it no doubt will become now), but it was my thread anyway and my question was answered.

*ducks and hides as the chaos begins*

Please keep all the Monk-stuff in the Monk-thread. Seriously, we don't need multiples of those - even one on the frontpage is enough of an eyesore to annoy me every day (and this forum lacks "hide thread"-function), especially since you can predict what people will say and all the responses. I mean, instead of typing that up, you could've just imagined what others respond and then imagined your response and had the entire Monk-thread in your head.

If everyone did that, we might finally have a world free of Monk-threads. I mean, many things are worth discussing, but experience shows that people fail to convey any information in Monk-threads for whatever reason thus removing the need to post about 'em at all.

monty
2008-11-20, 12:46 PM
While we're making this crazy, why don't we throw in some templates for natural attacks?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-20, 12:47 PM
Barbarian 1/Fighter 19//Monk 11/ Warblade 1/ Blood Claw Master 3/ Rogue 5

With the following feats: TWF, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

With the following items: Speed Kama

Has an attack routine at level 20 of: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

If you can sneak attack then each attack deals an additional 5d6 damage.
If you use Martial Study to learn Inferno Blade then each attack will deal an additional 3d6+14 fire damage.

Don't think that'll work unless you use the Chaos Monk from Dragon. You can't have your first class level be a Barbarian//Monk, because they have mutually exclusive alignment needs. You can start as one and switch into the other next level, but they can't exist opposite each other simultaneously.

tyckspoon
2008-11-20, 12:55 PM
Don't think that'll work unless you use the Chaos Monk from Dragon. You can't have your first class level be a Barbarian//Monk, because they have mutually exclusive alignment needs. You can start as one and switch into the other next level, but they can't exist opposite each other simultaneously.

Put one of the Rogue levels up front. A little Sneak Attack to help boost your damage before the ToB stuff comes in and especially the first-level skillpoint boost; more useful than going Monk to start with anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-20, 12:57 PM
Now all you need is a Thri-Kreen with the Multiattack feat chain...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-20, 01:06 PM
Put one of the Rogue levels up front. A little Sneak Attack to help boost your damage before the ToB stuff comes in and especially the first-level skillpoint boost; more useful than going Monk to start with anyway.

Yeah, that works.

@ShneekeyTheLost
The problem is that multiattack requires you use your natural weapons, which can't be enchanted.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-20, 01:27 PM
Yeah, that works.

@ShneekeyTheLost
The problem is that multiattack requires you use your natural weapons, which can't be enchanted.

Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang both work equally well.

Kensai PrC also works, although you loose much of the monk progression

Monk weapons all suck anyways because they don't do the damage of an unarmed monk after 4th level. The only benefit would be special materials to bypass certain kinds of DR.

And rather than going Monk11, why not just go Unarmed Swordsage with Round Kick and Raging Mongoose boost?

Canine
2008-11-20, 01:29 PM
Multiweapon Fighting, and its Improved and Greater forms, replace the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms. I know they exist in the Epic Level handbook (as non-epic feats), but I'm not sure where else to find them.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-20, 01:31 PM
Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang both work equally well.
The +5 isn't that important. It's the enhancements you can put on them.


Monk weapons all suck anyways because they don't do the damage of an unarmed monk after 4th level. The only benefit would be special materials to bypass certain kinds of DR.
No, the main benefit is the enhancements. Overcoming DR is nice but not uber necessary.

Granted, a +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 attack routine is nice (add in another +20 if you use Kensai and get one of your hands to be a speed weapon).

monty
2008-11-20, 01:35 PM
Multiweapon Fighting, and its Improved and Greater forms, replace the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms. I know they exist in the Epic Level handbook (as non-epic feats), but I'm not sure where else to find them.

In the SRD?

Canine
2008-11-20, 01:39 PM
Yes, indeed they are in the SRD. I did not check beforehand because of the hassle of accessing the site while at work.

Multiweapon Fighting is categorized as a Monstrous feat, while the others are under the category of Epic feats, in the Nonepic General Feats subcategory. Sweet standardization.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-20, 01:42 PM
Barbarian 1/Fighter 18/Warblade 1//Rogue 1/Monk 11/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3/Rogue 4.

With the following feats: TWF, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

With the following items: Speed Kama

Using Raging Mongoose: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

Replace the Rogue levels with Thri-Keen and you gain an additional 2 attacks (no speed weapon). Fit Kensai in there and get Speed on one of your natural attacks for 12 attacks at Full AB (and with full strength bonus to damage).

Now be shapechanged into a chronotyne (I think that's how it's spelled) and then PaOed back into a Thri-Keen to get 2 full attacks per round, meaning 24 attacks at full AB every round.

Eighth_Seraph
2008-11-21, 01:48 AM
...

Now be shapechanged into a chronotyne (I think that's how it's spelled) and then PaOed back into a Thri-Keen to get 2 full attacks per round, meaning 24 attacks at full AB every round.
This is the point at which a giant justice-fueled lightning bolt hits you for 5000d6 force damage, turning your smoldering corpse instantaneously into a large hunk of cheddar.

NEO|Phyte
2008-11-21, 01:54 AM
Now be shapechanged into a chronotyne (I think that's how it's spelled) and then PaOed back into a Thri-Keen to get 2 full attacks per round, meaning 24 attacks at full AB every round.

This feels relevant (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=080913).

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-21, 03:28 AM
to the OP: never intended to transform the thread in the usual monk thread.
Simply, you noticed with this thread a thing very useful for me and my group,
and I'm very thankful of this.:smallsmile:

To tippy: awesome, but we (me and my gaing group I mean) always play gestalt but only with 2 classes (or at 2 classes and 1 prestige class) and we are fine with Fighter and Monk and removed ToB (maybe everybody find it odd but...).

Anyway, thanks!

*Bows*

RebelRogue
2008-11-21, 09:22 AM
BTW, since I've just started playing my first Gestalt game anyway, there's something we've been wondering about: If a Gestalt character gains bonus Feat from both classes at a given level (Fighter/Monk level 1 and 2 for instance), do you gain both Feats, or just one from the combined amount of options for bonus Feats?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-11-21, 10:39 AM
Barbarian 1/Fighter 18/Warblade 1//Rogue 1/Monk 11/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3/Rogue 4.

With the following feats: TWF, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

With the following items: Speed Kama

Using Raging Mongoose: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

Replace the Rogue levels with Thri-Keen and you gain an additional 2 attacks (no speed weapon). Fit Kensai in there and get Speed on one of your natural attacks for 12 attacks at Full AB (and with full strength bonus to damage).

Now be shapechanged into a chronotyne (I think that's how it's spelled) and then PaOed back into a Thri-Keen to get 2 full attacks per round, meaning 24 attacks at full AB every round.

Now that's a monk I can respect :smallbiggrin:

jcsw
2008-11-21, 11:08 AM
How are you casting shapechange?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-21, 11:15 AM
How are you casting shapechange?

UMD of course :smallbiggrin: It just wouldn't be a monk without it. :smallwink:

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-21, 01:25 PM
BTW, since I've just started playing my first Gestalt game anyway, there's something we've been wondering about: If a Gestalt character gains bonus Feat from both classes at a given level (Fighter/Monk level 1 and 2 for instance), do you gain both Feats, or just one from the combined amount of options for bonus Feats?

As far as I know, you do, which makes Fighter//Psychic Warrior featastic!

Jack Zander
2008-11-22, 01:04 AM
As far as I know, you do, which makes Fighter//Psychic Warrior featastic!

Can anyone confirm this? I would love to be able to stack fighter and monk bonus feats.

Aneantir
2008-11-22, 01:15 AM
Can anyone confirm this? I would love to be able to stack fighter and monk bonus feats.

Well, the bonus feats are class features, and the gestalt rules specifically state that you gain the class features of both classes, so you would gain both sets of bonus feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-22, 01:23 AM
It depends on how the DM wants to rule it. He could say that no character can gain a class feature progression any faster than either class would grant, so you'd get a bonus feat no more often than every other level plus first level (Fighter progression). Another way of ruling it would be to say that two classes that use the same list of bonus feats (Fighter and Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), for example) would follow that rule, but two classes which pick bonus feats from different lists, such as Fighter and Psychic Warrior, would progress independently. The latter would be the fair way IMO, and that's how I would rule it.

monty
2008-11-22, 01:37 AM
Bonus feats aren't a progression, though. That is, nothing increases with level. You just get more of them.