PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Non-caster batman?



Thurbane
2008-11-21, 06:47 AM
If I'm understanding the term "Batman Wizard" correctly, it means to be the best at (nearly) every aspect of the game (combat, stealth, diplomacy, trapfinding etc etc) by use of your spells...

My question is this: could you make an effective non-caster "Batman"? Would you need to rely heavily on UMD (like the Joker Monk), or use pseudo-caster classes like Factotum or Warlock? Heck, does the Factotum already fit the bill as written? Haberdash the Kitchen sink?

In short, apart from casters, who's the best "man for all seasons", or challenger to the Batman title?

jcsw
2008-11-21, 07:28 AM
Does artificer count as a caster?

Saph
2008-11-21, 08:35 AM
If I'm understanding the term "Batman Wizard" correctly, it means to be the best at (nearly) every aspect of the game (combat, stealth, diplomacy, trapfinding etc etc) by use of your spells...

Actually, it's more like the opposite. TLN's original advice was that as a Wizard you shouldn't do stuff like damage, diplomacy, trapfinding, etc, because other characters can do that. What you should do is focus on what no-one else can do (your arcane spells) to make everyone else better at what they can do.

However, over a year or so, the term 'Batman Wizard' stopped being used on these forums to mean "Wizard who uses his spells to make the team function optimally" (which is an extremely effective and viable way to play a wizard) and started being used to mean "Wizard who uses his spells exclusively to protect himself and do everything himself" (which goes completely against the point of the original guide, and is a good way to get yourself ditched by the other party members).

- Saph

Hal
2008-11-21, 08:39 AM
Actually, it's more like the opposite. TLN's original advice was that as a Wizard you shouldn't do stuff like damage, diplomacy, trapfinding, etc, because other characters can do that. What you should do is focus on what no-one else can do (your arcane spells) to make everyone else better at what they can do.

However, over a year or so, the term 'Batman Wizard' stopped being used on these forums to mean "Wizard who uses his spells to make the team function optimally" (which is an extremely effective and viable way to play a wizard) and started being used to mean "Wizard who uses his spells exclusively to protect himself and do everything himself" (which goes completely against the point of the original guide, and is a good way to get yourself ditched by the other party members).

- Saph

Based on this, an alchemist might fit the bill, but only at lower levels. Past that, the buffs/debuffs are either insignificant or too easy to resist.

DigoDragon
2008-11-21, 08:47 AM
What you should do is focus on what no-one else can do (your arcane spells) to make everyone else better at what they can do.

Ding! Gold star for you. :smallsmile:
Seldom nowadays do I see such ideas of optimizing a character for the benefit of the team.

Heliomance
2008-11-21, 08:47 AM
I believe the current vogue term to refer to the original spirit of the Batman wizard is GOD.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-21, 08:53 AM
I believe the current vogue term to refer to the original spirit of the Batman wizard is GOD.

Are you quite sure about that? Because the term "god" even more strongly implies "person who is able to do everything by himself". Indeed, as I recall, the original "god wizard" guide was far more disparaging of the other party roles than TLN's batman guide.


At any rate. If you're looking for a non-caster that can do essentially everything (well, except casting) you need some kind of skillmonkey, e.g. Rogue or factotum. If you're looking for a non-caster that buffs and improves the other party members, that would be essentially a Bard (which, ironically, is a caster). 2E had a number of non-casting bards, 4E has the Warlord.

Vinotaur
2008-11-21, 09:20 AM
1) Bat man is generally used to mean crazy prepared.

2) It doesn't matter if the God Guide is disparaging. You can be disparaging to other characters and still work with them. Gods have followers, and the God has minions. How he thinks of them doesn't make them not exist.

Heliomance
2008-11-21, 09:30 AM
The disparaging tone of the GtpG was highly tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be taken seriously. And it certainly doesn't suggest taking all the glory for yourself. Allow me to quote the three suggested roles for a wizard:

Battlefield Control:

In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

Debuffing:

In order to be an effective Debuffer - you should consider your primary goal to have your BBEG standing in front of your GC and BSF dazed, stunned, nauseated, STR = 1, Dex = 1, Level = 1, and Blind for good measure. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

(Note to readers: Debuffing can more literally be termed as reducing attributes or levels of opponents - I extend the term to be anything that impairs or damages the abilities of the enemy - which is why I include things like "blinding" to be a debuff)

Buffing:

In order to be effective at buffing - you turn your Big Stupid Fighter into a Colossal, Stupid Fighter on crack, and your Glass Cannon into an Adamantium Chain Gun. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

The focus of the guide - make it easier for everyone else to do ttheir job.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-21, 09:32 AM
The disparaging tone of the GtpG was highly tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be taken seriously.

Yes, I get that. My point is that not everybody else does, as evidenced by what memetic mutation did to TLN's Batman.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-11-21, 10:32 AM
It's much more fun to play batman when you're controlling the battlefield to help your allies achieve victory than when you're hogging the spotlight.

Seffbasilisk
2008-11-21, 10:54 AM
You could theoretically make a Rogue/Swordsage (or most any skillmonkey) that worked like a Batman wizard.

Lots of alchemical supplies (sticky bomb, tanglefoot bag, etc)
Rod of ropes (Baterang and batline)
Poisons/Ravages/Afflictions
Crippling blow
Shadowhand maneuvers coupled with crippling blow to really drain STR and con and such.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-21, 11:01 AM
To the OP: Factotum with tons of FoI and a 1 level dip in Exemplar at level 20 (for skill mastery).

Thurbane
2008-11-21, 06:50 PM
Thanks to Seff and Tippy for getting this back on track - any other takers?

@ jcsw - I don't have any Eberron material, so I'm not very familiar with Artificers, but I would say they fall into the "pseudo-caster" category, like Factotums or Warlocks (i.e. with class abilities that mimic spells or SLAs, or in this case, the item crafting abilities of a full caster)...

AmberVael
2008-11-21, 08:15 PM
Hmmm...
An appropriately made Incarnate or Totemist would probably make one of the best batman characters ever, at least in terms of style. What are their class features, after all? Gadgets. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I do think a properly made Incarnum based character could somewhat take up the role. It wouldn't be quite the same, but it certainly would be an interesting way to go about it.

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 01:51 AM
Definitely Artificer. After all, Bruce Wayne was an inventor.

Just flavor all of your low level wands into cool things. Your Wand of Rope Trick has a pistol grip, and appears to shoot the rope out. Your Wand of X Cloud appears to shoot little gas pellets that spay gas over the affected area. Your wand of Knock looks like some kind of complex key doodad. Your wand that you persist Divine Power from encases you in a neato black spandex suit with pointy edges and massive pectorial muscles. Badabing. You fulfil a lot of the vital "batman" wizard roles like BC, utility, debuffing, etc, but you do it with more style!

Fizban
2008-11-22, 07:00 AM
A combination of the Haberdasher, joker Monk, and maybe Chameleon or Incarnum (nice idea up there) for good measure. In short, work out a build that includes all the cheesy tricks that non-casters have used to keep up with casters, and you might be able to pull it off. While Batman has gadgets up the wazoo, he didn't make them himself, he used his bottomless pockets to buy them all, so I'd go with standard UMD over classed Artificer. Edit: of course, I've really only seen the two newest movie and the old first one, so I'm probably wrong for any other material.

I"d go with Factotum with Master of Masks1 into Chameleon myself. Depending on what features you'd get with Factotum, maybe swap a couple levels for Warlock. Between the Warlock skill bonus invocations and using the Chameleon floating feat to get soulmelds (which, as pointed out in the Haberdashers thread, don't unshape until you want them to, allowing you keep them when you change to feat to get another), and the Factotum base, you could have some ridiculous skill bonuses. Dredge the books for every cheesy exotic weapon, alchemical item, and gadget. Use Iajutsu Focus and skill tricks of the Haberdasher for extra damage, wands of Wraithstrike and Heroics to overcome your lack of BAB and combat feats, and so on. If you don't have quick draw, or your DM imposes a limit (drawing 6 different polearms in one round might do that), use Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape: you can have two in your armor, one on your shield (bucklers are a shield), and one in each hilted weapon.

While wands and scrolls have abysmal save DCs, and your Chameleon spells only go up to 5th, you can use no save stuff on groups and debuff single target saves with wands of Enervation, tanglefoot bags, and Atuman Flasks (Planar Handbook, splash weapon that imposes a -4 fort save penalty for a whole minute, ri-freaking-diculous). I can't remember how many feats it takes to get Dual Wand Wielder, but two Enervations a round is awesome if you can afford it, or put a wand of Launch Item (0th level) in your off hand for a free splash weapon instead, or any other two no-save debuffs.

Cheesegear
2008-11-22, 07:43 AM
Wand of Launch Item (0th level) in your off hand for a free splash weapon instead, or any other two no-save debuffs.

I call it a Gravity Gun.

Hal
2008-11-22, 08:54 AM
Not to be a nay-sayer or anything, but don't wands violate the idea of a non-caster batman?

Kurald Galain
2008-11-22, 09:34 AM
Not to be a nay-sayer or anything, but don't wands violate the idea of a non-caster batman?

Rather obviously, yes.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-22, 10:49 AM
Ding! Gold star for you. :smallsmile:
Seldom nowadays do I see such ideas of optimizing a character for the benefit of the team.

Which is why I built an (Intelligent 16 INT) Bard. Skillmonkey-ness, buff spells, Inspire Competence and Inspre Courage. Just an all around feel-good character. It is a far cry from the Warblade I had at the beginning of the campaign. Batman Wizard takes too much from the rst of the party. I do like a character that is prepared, but having an entire party that is properly prepared is paramount. Person playing Peter Parker is positively preposterous. Just thought I would throw that in there :smallwink:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-22, 04:36 PM
A Dragonborn Dragon Shaman could probably be a little bit of a batman. Get the Dragonborn breath attack, get Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Recover Breath, Entangling Exhalation, and Frightful Presence (DCN). Use a reach weapon, and you should be able to use one of your breath weapons every round to keep the whole encounter entangled. That with your fear effects should keep them under control, and you've got your auras to give your party some nice boosts.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-22, 05:48 PM
Throw in a level of Dragonfire Adept. Now you'll NEVER run out of breath weapons. :)

Oslecamo
2008-11-22, 06:25 PM
We're geting way too much nicknames for builds.

What hapened to just wanting to shoot fireballs and bash stuff with sharp things?

Ascension
2008-11-22, 10:54 PM
What hapened to just wanting to shoot fireballs and bash stuff with sharp things?

Don't you know those are suboptimal? There are only a very, very few builds that can actually survive a game of D&D! You can't have an original or unoptimized concept! If you do, you'll surely be slain in an instant! No, you have to be Ubercheeze McMozzarellapants if you want to contribute to the party... or, even better, render the entire party unnecessary. Unless you can solo the Tomb of Horrors, you're not built right. If you can't handle optimized D&D you should go back to baby games that hold your hand, like Pokemon or something.

[/sarcasm]

AslanCross
2008-11-22, 11:52 PM
If Batman means being prepared for everything, I think the following classes can do it well enough:
-Rogue. Reliance on UMD would allow it to sort-of copy the Batman Wizard, but given the Level 4 spell limit on wands and the cost of making them (assuming they're not easy to obtain) makes an exclusively UMD-focused Rogue a bit difficult. (On the other hand, there's also scrolls) Besides, all those other skill points have to go somewhere.
-Factotum. I don't need to explain this.
-Artificer. You'll be relying on your magic devices a lot, but that's the point of the class anyway. Flavor-wise, it's likely to be closest to the original Batman.
-Warlock. The Warlock's invocations, while not very strong, cover a very broad selection of spells. Some can be used for control (Chilling Tentacles, for example), utility (lots of them) or limited blasting. There's also the ability to take 10 on UMD checks, which is very very helpful in trying not to accidentally shoot a lightning bolt down your left nostril.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 12:03 AM
If you can't handle optimized D&D you should go back to baby games that hold your hand, like Pokemon or something.

Excuse you sir. Pokemon holds no hands. It is a game of champions.:smallamused:

Maerok
2008-11-23, 12:42 AM
A monk with max UMD, of course!

Hmm, probably a Rogue or Factotum/Chameleon.

bosssmiley
2008-11-24, 11:25 AM
Does artificer count as a caster?

To answer a question with a question: does the Artificer have a spells/day table? :smallamused:

A non-caster Batman character: straight Rogue with a Handy Haversack full of alchemical items and a tactically-minded player is the closest I can think of.