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Eloel
2008-11-21, 09:15 AM
What do you think would be the best (numerically) character to play, with stats of
14-15-15-15-15-16 (unassigned yet) (yeah, weird roll)
ECL 6 (upto LA +5 allowed)
Sources are;
Core
Complete
PHB 2 & DMG 2
Draconomicon
Arm's and Equipment Guide
Expanded Psionics
Races of Destiny/Wild
Frostburn
BoED
Cityscape
Heroes of Battle



You get one free melee weapon and one free ranged weapon that can be magical that cost no more than 10,000 gp each. You also get one free minor wondrous item.

Automatically get Leadership as a bonus feat.

Starting gold: 15000 gp (4000 gp limit per magic item)
I'm thinking of some kind of a rogue, but I'm not sure which class I should choose (there are quite a few different rogue concepts in these sources), nor which race I should choose. Can anyone please help me? (Comments and/or Character Sheets would be great)

Telonius
2008-11-21, 11:16 AM
Yeah, that is a weird roll, but it does give you tons of possibilities. Even just looking at core, they're decently good stats for an Elf or Halfling Dex-based Rogue, or a Half-Orc Strength-based Rogue. You'll have a +1 or +2 to intelligence regardless. Your Strength and Int will likely both be above 13, which qualifies you for all kinds of feat chains. In fact, I can't think of anything you wouldn't qualify for with stats like those. Even as a caster, you could go Old age and get your 18 in the mental stat. So I guess the question really becomes ... what do you want to play?

Eloel
2008-11-21, 12:00 PM
I want to sneak-and-sneak-attack. e.g high Hide, MS, and high weapon damage. I don't care much about the trapfinding aspect, yet it helps.

Duke of URL
2008-11-21, 12:30 PM
How does your DM deal with multiclassing penalties? A one-level dip in Swordsage (level 9 is a good choice) for DEX-based Rogues can be great when used with the Shadow Blade feat. Edit: Ah, it appears that ToB isn't on the approved sources list...

And, of course, the obligatory 1-level dip in Shadowdancer for HiPS, but that's a PrC so MC rules don't apply...

Curmudgeon
2008-11-21, 01:04 PM
You're pretty much screwed if you can't get the Craven feat, which is in Champions of Ruin. That's the single most important feat for a combat-focused Rogue. Your base sneak attack damage is approximately +1.75 per Rogue level (1d6 every 2 levels). Craven boosts that by +1 per level.

Complete Champion gives access to the Death's Ruin alternative class feature, which lets you do reduced sneak attack damage to undead. For a melee Rogue I prefer the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature, but that's in Dungeonscape, which is also not on your sources list.

Is "core" just the books, or all the Open Gaming License material at The Hypertext d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)? If it's the latter you've got access to Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) and Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). These can help you a lot by allowing more flexibility, especially in feats.

For melee your best bet is a keen rapier and the Telling Blow feat (PH2). Then even if you don't have a flanking partner you've still got a chance of adding sneak attack damage on rolls of 15-20. Rogues don't have either enough BAB or enough feats to make the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree worthwhile.

If you really want to enable sneak attack by use of the Hide skill you need either magic or Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. Magic can do this with Deeper Darkness cast on your blade, and Ebon Eyes cast on you so you don't suffer from the concealment. But you still can't Hide while being watched, so you'd need a third spell for that. That's way too much for your low level. Your best bet here is to go for Shadowdancer at level 8 to pick up Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. You can buy Mobility as an armor enhancement to take care of one of the feat prerequisites. Once you get your level of Shadowdancer you've met all the prerequisites for Spring Attack, so that should probably be your next feat. Use HiPS to Hide as you close on your target, strike and deal sneak attack damage, and move away and Hide again.

For races, your best bet is human. You need the bonus feat (desperately!) and extra skill points.

Darrin
2008-11-21, 01:21 PM
I'm thinking of some kind of a rogue, but I'm not sure which class I should choose (there are quite a few different rogue concepts in these sources), nor which race I should choose. Can anyone please help me? (Comments and/or Character Sheets would be great)

Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone), one of the best races for doing anything sneaky. If you don't have acces to Races of Stone, also available for free on the WotC website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3

Rogue 5, sneak attack 3d6.

Dark template (Tome of Magic), +1 LA. +10 speed, Hide in Plain Sight, cold resistance 10, +8 bonus on Hide, +6 bonus on Move Silently.

Rogue 5/SwordSage 1 wouldn't be a bad idea, either... As has already been mentioned, Shadow Blade gives you Dex bonus on damage with Shadow Hand weapons, and Island of Blades stance means any adjacent ally counts for flanking.

Another option:

Fire or Gray Elf (for the +2 Int), Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3. Fire Elf is in Unearthed Arcana: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Cha. Int bonus on damage, and you can pick up the Daring Outlaw feat to keep getting sneak attack dice as a rogue with the Swashbuckler's full BAB.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 01:25 PM
Halfling with a sling(yes, a sling). Take the Sub level from RotW, put the 16 in Dex, boost your Con to 16 at 4th, and grab a Parrying Dagger for backup. I'd say go with Seeking for the sling, but that's just me.

Telonius
2008-11-21, 01:36 PM
If it were just for combat, I'd suggest this for the skeleton of the build: a Rogue3/SwashbucklerX multiclass with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. The feat lets you stack your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for Grace and Sneak Attack, and you'll have almost full BAB by level 20. Many of the Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel (particularly Acrobatic Backstab) would help you as well. However, this doesn't rely very much on Hide, which isn't in Swashbuckler's skill list.

For a near-total Rogue with combat goodies: Rogue19/Master of Masks1 (Gladiator and Assassin masks). Gladiator gives you proficiency with all weapons, including exotics.

only1doug
2008-11-21, 04:10 PM
What do you think would be the best (numerically) character to play, with stats of
14-15-15-15-15-16 (unassigned yet) (yeah, weird roll)
ECL 6 (upto LA +5 allowed)
Sources are;
Core
Complete
PHB 2 & DMG 2
Draconomicon
Arm's and Equipment Guide
Expanded Psionics
Races of Destiny/Wild
Frostburn
BoED
Cityscape
Heroes of Battle


I'm thinking of some kind of a rogue, but I'm not sure which class I should choose (there are quite a few different rogue concepts in these sources), nor which race I should choose. Can anyone please help me? (Comments and/or Character Sheets would be great)

Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) rogue 2 (ECL6)




from SRD
Pixie characters possess the following racial traits.

* -4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
* Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
* A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good).
* Low-light vision.
* Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
* Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.
* Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling.
* Favored Class: Sorcerer.
* Level adjustment +4



str 14 -4 =10
dex 16 +8 =24 (26)
con 15 +0 =15
int 15 +6 =21
wis 15 +4 =19
cha 15 +6 =21

feats

dodge (racial)
weapon finesse (racial)
1st level feat: pick one
sneak attack (1d6)
trapfinding
Evasion


skills

skillpoints: 13x5 (max ranks 5)
Appraise (Int), 5+5=10
Tumble (Dex), 5+7=12 (13)
Use Magic Device (Cha), 5+5=10
Disable Device (Int), 5+5=10
Gather Information (Cha), 5+5=10
Hide (Dex), 5+7=12
Move Silently (Dex), 5+7=12 (13)
Open Lock (Dex), 5+7=12 (13)
Listen (Wis), 5+4=9
Search (Int), 5+5=10
Sense Motive (Wis), 5+4=9
Sleight of Hand (Dex), 5+7=12 (13)
Spot (Wis), 5+4=9

or swap for:
Balance (Dex),
Bluff (Cha),
Climb (Str),
Craft (Int),
Decipher Script (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha),
Disguise (Cha),
Escape Artist (Dex),
Forgery (Int),
Intimidate (Cha),
Jump (Str),
Knowledge (local) (Int),
Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis),
Swim (Str),
Use Rope (Dex).


AC, attacks and saves

melee attack= 1 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =9
ranged attack= 1 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =9
Fort: 0 (base) + 2 = 2
Ref: 3 (base) +7 = 10
Will: 0 (base) +4 = 6

AC= 10 +7(dex) +1(size) +1(natural armour) =19
touch = 18
Flatfooted= 12


Weapon choice is important to deliver the damage this build is capable of.

disadvantages: LA 4 means less BAB (slower iterative attack progression) and less sneak attack dice. small character means less base damage from weapons (but base damage isn't a rogue's first priority)

advantages: permanent greater invisibility & flight, several 1/day spell like abilities, huge stats, Damage reduction, spell resistance.

future progression:

3 levels of swashbuckler will add int bonus to damage, you can get a feat that stacks swashbuckler with rogue levels (don't remember name)

1 level of monk would add 4 AC when not wearing armour.


gear;

melee weapon: +1 small rapier of deadly precision (8320 gp)(free)
(+10 to hit, 1d4 +1 + 2d6 (sneak attack) + 1d6 (energy type from augment))

ranged weapon: +2 small shortbow (8330 gp)(free)
(+11 to hit, 1d4 +2 +1d6 (sneak attack))

wondrous item: bottle of air or bag of holding III

add gear:
amulet of natural armour 1 (2000gp),
ring of deflection 1 (2000gp)
padded armour 1 (1005gp)
gloves of dexterity 2 (4000gp)
Lesser crystal of energy assault (3000gp) (pick an energy type)
healing belt (750gp)
60 arrows (3gp)
eternal wand of 1st level spell: mage armour (dc 20 umd to activate) (820gp)
wand of cure light wounds (50 charges) (750gp)
troll gut rope (600gp)

72gp still to spend
(trail rations etc)

Harp
2008-11-22, 01:02 AM
Well done only1doug.

Eloel
2008-11-22, 01:15 AM
Thank you very much. Pixie Rogue it is.
Edit:
We're allowed Gestalt Characters, that makes much difference, doesn't it?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-22, 01:30 AM
I was going to suggest a Pixie Rogue 1/ Warlock 1, eventually going Rogue 4/ Warlock 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10. Invisibly using Eldritch Blast with Flyby Attack is amazing, you'll never get hit. Be sure to eventually get Practiced Spellcaster so SR won't shut you down, and Tanglefoot Bags are good for when it does.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-22, 11:21 AM
I was going to suggest a Pixie Rogue 1/ Warlock 1, eventually going Rogue 4/ Warlock 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10. Invisibly using Eldritch Blast with Flyby Attack is amazing, you'll never get hit. Be sure to eventually get Practiced Spellcaster so SR won't shut you down, and Tanglefoot Bags are good for when it does.

Only you have to continue Assassin spellcasting because Warlock cannot qualify for AT, so that doesn't work.

Better idea would be Rogue/Warlock4/whatever as then you can take 10 on UMD checks. or even better still would be Rogue4/Sorcerer6/Arcane Trickster10 so you don't need to make UMD checks since you have sorcerer levels. And let's be honest, if you run out of RTA spells as a sorcerer, you're in bigger trouble anyways.

Frosty
2008-11-22, 12:07 PM
Thank you very much. Pixie Rogue it is.
Edit:
We're allowed Gestalt Characters, that makes much difference, doesn't it?

That...makes such a huge difference as to possibly make half the previous advice obsolete.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-22, 02:01 PM
Let me note that the Pixie Rogue option is extremely fragile, having only 13.5 average HP with a CON of 15. Typically that means that one hit = death. In a gestalt game you'll encounter tougher opponents. You just don't have enough HD to survive.

wadledo
2008-11-22, 02:16 PM
That...makes such a huge difference as to possibly make half the previous advice obsolete.

Yea, that was kind of important.
In that case, I'd suggest Pixie/Rogue//Psion, if you want blasting/killing.
Sort of, seeing as how this makes any build sooooooo much more different.

You'll still be fragile(though better than just straight rogue), but if you keep at a distance, you'll have decent skills, and can make things explode, which is always nice.

Baxbart
2008-11-22, 02:42 PM
Let me note that the Pixie Rogue option is extremely fragile, having only 13.5 average HP with a CON of 15. Typically that means that one hit = death. In a gestalt game you'll encounter tougher opponents. You just don't have enough HD to survive.


Except if it is a gestalt game, that +4LA will just sit happily on one side of the build and leave him free to take 6 HD worth of classes on the other side:

LA 4/Class 2//Rogue 6

Makes the build considerably more survivable, pretty much whatever you do with those remaining two levels.... I'd say take the 2 level Swordsage dip for Wis to AC, but its not on the approved list.

Aneantir
2008-11-22, 02:44 PM
I'd honestly say:

Pixie LA 4/Warlock 2//Rogue 6

Would be the way to go, with Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock) to avoid SR.

only1doug
2008-11-23, 07:48 AM
That...makes such a huge difference as to possibly make half the previous advice obsolete.

yes, amazingly huge difference.

The critical factor now is will your GM allow you to have the Level Adjust of the creature on only one side of the gestalt, if not then go with a 0 LA race, its just not worth losing more in a gestalt game.

Another question to ask you GM regarding the Gestalt is if he is using fractional progression or additive. (fractional means you calculate the progression for each save and BAB as though all classes with the same type of progression all counted as the same class. eg. rouge is 3/4 BAB so each level of rogue counts as .75 BAB, wizard is 1/2 BAB so 1 level of wizard counts as .5 BAB.
using additive a L1 wiz / L1 rogue would have a BAB of 0+0=0
using fractional the same character would have a BAB of 0.75+0.5=1.25=1



rebuild
Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) La4/ swashbuckler 2 // rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / rogue 4 (ECL6)


str 14 -4 =10
dex 16 +8 =24 (26)
con 15 +0 =15
int 15 +6 =21 (+1 at L4)=22
wis 15 +4 =19
cha 15 +6 =21

feats

dodge (racial)
weapon finesse (racial)
1st level feat: pick one
3rd level feat: pick one
6th level feat: pick one
sneak attack (3d6)
trapfinding
Evasion
trap sense +2
Uncanny dodge
grace +1


skills

skillpoints: 12x6 + 13x3 (max ranks 12) (int bonus increased at L4)
Appraise (Int), 12+6=18
Tumble (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Use Magic Device (Cha), 12+5=17
Disable Device (Int), 12+6=18
Gather Information (Cha), 12+5=17
Hide (Dex), 12+7=19
Move Silently (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Open Lock (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Listen (Wis), 12+4=16
Search (Int), 12+6=18
Sense Motive (Wis), 12+4=16
Sleight of Hand (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Spot (Wis), 12+4=16
balance (dex), 3+7=10 (11)

or swap for:
Balance (Dex),
Bluff (Cha),
Climb (Str),
Craft (Int),
Decipher Script (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha),
Disguise (Cha),
Escape Artist (Dex),
Forgery (Int),
Intimidate (Cha),
Jump (Str),
Knowledge (local) (Int),
Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis),
Swim (Str),
Use Rope (Dex).


AC, attacks and saves

melee attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
ranged attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
Fort: 3 (base) + 2 = 5
Ref: 5 (base) +7 = 12 +1(grace)=13
Will: 2 (base) +4 = 5

AC= 10 +8(dex) +1(size) +1(natural armour) +2 armour =22
touch = 19
Flatfooted= 14

Weapon choice is important to deliver the damage this build is capable of.

disadvantages: small character means less base damage from weapons (but base damage isn't a rogue's first priority)

advantages: permanent greater invisibility & flight, several 1/day spell like abilities, huge stats, Damage reduction, spell resistance.



gear;

melee weapon: +1 small rapier of deadly precision (8320 gp)(free)
(+10 to hit, 1d4 +1 +8 (int) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 1d6 (energy type from augment))

ranged weapon: +2 small shortbow (8330 gp)(free)
(+11 to hit, 1d4 +2 +3d6 (sneak attack))

wondrous item: bottle of air or bag of holding III

add gear:
amulet of natural armour 1 (2000gp),
ring of deflection 1 (2000gp)
padded armour 1 (1005gp)
gloves of dexterity 2 (4000gp)
Lesser crystal of energy assault (3000gp) (pick an energy type)
healing belt (750gp)
60 arrows (3gp)
eternal wand of 1st level spell: mage armour (dc 20 umd to activate) (820gp)
wand of cure light wounds (50 charges) (750gp)
troll gut rope (600gp)

72gp still to spend
(trail rations etc)


Progression: 1 more level of swashbuckler will give you insightful strike.


after that fighter levels would give you bonus feats that could be used to buy the 2 weapon fighting chain. or prestige classes can give interesting features.
rogue side of the gestalt could either progress pure rogue or go prestige


alternatives:
buying skill tricks with your skillpoints would open up the battle trickster and uncanny trickster prestige classes

taking one level of swashbuckler instead of a rogue level during the LA buyoff delays sneak attack progression by one level in exchange for int bonus to damage 1 level earlier. (if you can wait until next level thats better)


feats

dodge (racial)
weapon finesse (racial)
1st level feat: pick one
3rd level feat: pick one
6th level feat: pick one
sneak attack (3d6)
trapfinding
Evasion
trap sense +1
Uncanny dodge
grace +1
Insightful strike (+Int bonus to weapon damage)


skills

skillpoints: 12x5 + 10x1(swashbuckler level) + 13x3 (max ranks 12)
Appraise (Int), 11+6=17
Tumble (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Use Magic Device (Cha), 12+5=17
Disable Device (Int), 12+6=18
Gather Information (Cha), 11+5=16
Hide (Dex), 11+7=18
Move Silently (Dex), 11+7=18 (19)
Open Lock (Dex), 12+7=19 (20)
Listen (Wis), 11+4=15
Search (Int), 11+6=17
Sense Motive (Wis), 12+4=16
Sleight of Hand (Dex), 11+7=18 (19)
Spot (Wis), 11+4=15

swashbuckler level skill points spent:
Sense Motive (Wis), 1
Balance (Dex), 3+7=10(11)
Bluff (Cha), 2+5=7
Escape Artist (Dex), 3+7=10(11)
Tumble (Dex) 1

or swap for:
Balance (Dex),
Bluff (Cha),
Climb (Str),
Craft (Int),
Decipher Script (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha),
Disguise (Cha),
Escape Artist (Dex),
Forgery (Int),
Intimidate (Cha),
Jump (Str),
Knowledge (local) (Int),
Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis),
Swim (Str),
Use Rope (Dex).


AC, attacks and saves (additive)

melee attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
ranged attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
Fort: 3 (base) + 2 = 5
Ref: 4 (base) +7 = 11 +1(grace)=12
Will: 1 (base) +4 = 5

AC= 10 +8(dex) +1(size) +1(natural armour) +2 armour =22
touch = 19
Flatfooted= 14


AC, attacks and saves (fractional)

melee attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
ranged attack= 4 (BAB) + 7 (dex) +1 (size) =12
Fort: 3 (base) + 2 = 5
Ref: 5 (base) +7 = 12 +1(grace)=13
Will: 2 (base) +4 = 5

AC= 10 +8(dex) +1(size) +1(natural armour) +2 armour =22
touch = 19
Flatfooted= 14


Prioritising for BAB (ability to hit gives more damage in the long run) would also be worth considering.

Pixie (LA4) / rogue 2 // swashbuckler 3 / Paladin of freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) 3
keep the Full BAB side of the gestalt progressing your BAB this build would have better hitpoints at early levels (eventually the difference will be less important)
Paladin is a very nice addition to the gestalt if you are allowed it.
trading 2d6 of sneak attack damage for 2 BAB may not seem worth it to you.
2 BAB is a 10% better chance of hitting and will give you an additional attack
if you take a full attack action. at L11 you would get 3 attacks where a rogue would only have 2 (and won't get 3 until 15th level) and your BAB will be 3 better (15%) than a rogue based would).

you'd suffer skills wise from 4 levels of lower skill advancement but you would hit much more often.

Duke of URL
2008-11-23, 09:42 AM
Let me note that the Pixie Rogue option is extremely fragile, having only 13.5 average HP with a CON of 15. Typically that means that one hit = death. In a gestalt game you'll encounter tougher opponents. You just don't have enough HD to survive.

You do, however, have really good DR and SR. But yes, squishy is the biggest (probably only) drawback to using a Pixie at lower levels.

RebelRogue
2008-11-23, 10:44 AM
You do, however, have really good DR and SR. But yes, squishy is the biggest (probably only) drawback to using a Pixie at lower levels.
Apart from low hp, watch out for spells that affect you based on HD. They can prove deadly fast!

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-23, 11:28 AM
With gestalt, I'd probably say:

Pixie LA4/Rogue16//Sorcerer/PrC1/PrC2

Pixies get an insane Cha mod, be a shame to not take advantage of it. And let's face it, Warlock, unless you want a 4 level dip to take 10 on UMD, is not really worth it for this build. If you run out of ranged touch attack spells, you've got worse problems.

Also, as Gestalt, you have 20 HD, even as a pixie, which means not as many problems about hit points and HD targeting spells.