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hotel_papa
2008-11-21, 05:40 PM
Are there any items out there that give substantial bonuses to a disarm check?

HP

Keld Denar
2008-11-21, 06:26 PM
For or against?

The biggest thing to protect yourself from disarm is a Locking Gauntlet, PHB. Makes drawing or dropping weapons a full round action, but gives you a +10.

Otherwise, the other big factor is the handedness of the weapon. Light weapons are at a -4 on all disarm checks, and two handed weapons get a +4. Some weapons like flails also get bonuses.


Other than that, its an attack roll, and anything that increase your attack roll. Bards, Bless, Prayer, Recitation, +str or +dex items respectively, etc.

RTGoodman
2008-11-21, 06:34 PM
And, well, Improved Disarm would probably be helpful. :smallwink:

I also think there are some magic items that give Disarm bonuses, but I'll have to go check MIC and the SRD and get back to you.

EDIT: Ooh, and of course Spiked Chains, Flails, and certain other weapons give bonuses to disarming just by their nature of being all tangly.

EDIT 2: We're talking 3.x, right, not 4E?

Curmudgeon
2008-11-21, 06:59 PM
To oppose being disarmed, there's the Greater Augment Crystal of Security: +10 on Strength checks vs. disarm.

As disarm works with opposed attack rolls, light weapons may come out OK for high-DEX characters with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Finally, of course, there are unarmed strikes or natural weapons, which can never be sundered or disarmed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-21, 07:06 PM
Spiked Chain is, as always, awesome for this, as are Whips if wielded 2-handed. You of course want a Locked Gauntlet to prevent failing the 2nd roll if you fail the first.

RTGoodman
2008-11-21, 07:17 PM
Okay, I took a look through the MIC, and it was mostly fruitless.

There is in fact a disarming weapon property, but it's a +2-equivalent property that only gives a +2 bonus to disarm attempts and keeps you from being disarmed yourself. Probably not worth it, but that's up to you to decide.

If you're looking to optimize disarming, you could go with a Goliath (LA +1, Races of Stone) Fighter with Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. Go for 18 Str and 13 Int at minimum. You'll probably want a locked gauntlet for a few levels until you can get a magic item/ability that keeps you from being disarmed.

At ECL 2, that's a disarm check of +6 Str (18 base, +4 racial), +4 Powerful Build, +6 weapon (Large-sized two-handed ranseur/flail/spiked chain/etc.), and +1 BAB, for a total of +17. Add in a masterwork weapon and that's up to +18. Most CR 2 monsters that wield weapons have an attack bonus of around +3 to +5, meaning you're going to win ALMOST every time.

After that, grab a level or more of Barbarian for Rage (for another +2 or more while raging, depending on level) and then just start getting a better weapon and finding other stuff you want to do (Power Attack, Leap Attack, etc.) so you're not a one-trick pony.

Thurbane
2008-11-21, 07:40 PM
If you want, grab Leadership at 6th level and snag yourself a Marshal cohort (or if you don't want to use a feat, grab one as a hireling). His minor auras will allow him to add his CHA bonus to your (and you allies) disarm attempts, among many other things.

hotel_papa
2008-11-21, 07:48 PM
Actually, I was specifically looking to boost a character intent on disarming others. Thanks a lot, all.

HP

RebelRogue
2008-11-21, 08:06 PM
After that, grab a level or more of Barbarian for Rage
Bad idea, as you cannot use Combat Expertise or any Feat from its Feat tree (such as Improved Disarm) while raging.

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-21, 08:33 PM
The maug's locking gauntlet graft (Fiend Folio) gives a +5 bonus to avoid disarm and a bunch of other things, and stacks with the locking gauntlet.

RTGoodman
2008-11-21, 08:49 PM
Bad idea, as you cannot use Combat Expertise or any Feat from its Feat tree (such as Improved Disarm) while raging.

I don't think so - the SRD says "He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats." He can't use the CE feat itself to up his AC, but he should be able to still use ID since he doesn't actually have to USE Combat Expertise to use ID.

RebelRogue
2008-11-21, 08:54 PM
I don't think so - the SRD says "He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats." He can't use the CE feat itself to up his AC, but he should be able to still use ID since he doesn't actually have to USE Combat Expertise to use ID.
It's sort of a question of interpretation. After reading over the section, I guess that RAW you're right. I just know that when playing my Bard/Barbarian I was disallowed to do so while raging :shrugs:

Lycar
2008-11-22, 09:38 AM
I don't think so - the SRD says "He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats." He can't use the CE feat itself to up his AC, but he should be able to still use ID since he doesn't actually have to USE Combat Expertise to use ID.

Ah but consider this: Combat Expertise represents the cool-headed, experienced warrior with enough skill to turn some offense into defense and even use special attacks with calculated precision.

A raging barbarian is about the polar opposite: Putting his own safety behind his will, or maybe obsession, to see his foes crushed, slain, obliterated etc., his madness makes him hit harder but also easier to hit. He certainly is not going to waste a perfectly good swing, that could lop off a head, to do something finnicky like disarming an opponent. :smallamused:

Sure, by RAW he can do it. But I dare say, if I was to rule this, I'd declare the RAI to be that the manouvers which key off Cmbt. Exp. aren't available in a rage.

Although I might be persuaded to let Whirlwind attack fly. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously. This is just another role-playing vs. roll-playing issue.

A: "The rules say, I can do that.:smallamused:"
B: "Technically, they only don't explicitly say you can't do it. But it is implicit in the (fluff) that it is not supposed to work that way.:smallannoyed:"
A: "Yeah? So who gives a **** about (fluff) anyway?:smalltongue:"
B: "Not you obviously...:smallmad:"
A: "Loser!:smallbiggrin:"
B: "Munchkin!:smallfurious:"
*brawl ensues*

Lycar

RTGoodman
2008-11-22, 02:50 PM
Well, I don't think it's out-of-character at all for a big hulking barbarian to swat his weakling opponent's weapon out of his hands before cleaving said foe in twain.

Of course, I also think Improved Disarm should have the Pre-Requisite of "Combat Expertise or Power Attack," since I don't think it would take a genius to figure out knocking a guys weapon away from him is a good way to neutralize him as a threat. Improved Trip I think could work the same, too, and I'd probably allow it during a rage, too. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :smalltongue: (I think we can agree that Improved Feint shouldn't work in a rage though - it seems just silly enough to me that I probably wouldn't allow it.)

Lycar
2008-11-22, 06:44 PM
He okay. He still can use Disarm as a regular combat manouver. Without the benfits the Improved Disarm feat affords. You know, he just doesn't have the presence of mind to carefully execute his attack while in a berserk frenzy.

He pretty much just hacks away at the weapon, hoping to knock it out of his opponent's hands by sheer brute force.

Basically what every other character without Impoved Disarm is forced to do anyway, because they just don't know it any better.

Lycar

Roog
2008-11-22, 06:53 PM
He okay. He still can use Disarm as a regular combat manouver. Without the benfits the Improved Disarm feat affords. You know, he just doesn't have the presence of mind to carefully execute his attack while in a berserk frenzy.

Do you also ban raging characters from using tactics?

hotel_papa
2008-11-22, 06:58 PM
Specifically, the character in question is a char. lev. 14 Changeling Ranger/Justiciar/Warshaper (Don't know how many of which) who specializes in grappling and neutralizing. He already has reach and improved disarm, just want to be better at disarm. He is already saving up for a cloak that will get him size colossal (the wu-jen spell "giant size). I doubt he'll need much more, but he's a perfectionist. He doesn't just wan't to beat them. He want's to beat them by about +30.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-22, 07:05 PM
He okay. He still can use Disarm as a regular combat manouver. Without the benfits the Improved Disarm feat affords. You know, he just doesn't have the presence of mind to carefully execute his attack while in a berserk frenzy.

He pretty much just hacks away at the weapon, hoping to knock it out of his opponent's hands by sheer brute force.

Basically what every other character without Impoved Disarm is forced to do anyway, because they just don't know it any better.

Lycar

I think improved trip makes perfect sense for a Raging Barbarian. Smash them to the ground, and SMASH.

Lycar
2008-11-22, 07:12 PM
Do you also ban raging characters from using tactics?

Anything that requires a cool head, yes. But then again, what kind of 'tactics' does a berserker need except 'kill stuff' anyway? He may want to get at the spellcaster behind all the meatshields, but that doesn't require more tactical genius then figuring out how to get past the mooks the quickest.

Tumbling* or bullrushing or overrunning are perfectly fine for that matter.

Making some convulted tactical moves to squeeze out a positive modifier? Not so much.

(* Yes, raging prevent you from using dex-based skills. But given that the number of available feats is in the quadruple digits and that the Improved Bullrush/Overrun feats aren't usually a high priority for most characters, I would allow a character with tumble to try and get past a row of meatshields raging, but only while soaking up the AoOs as per normal.

Represents pressing past the enemy with animal cunning and sheer bloodymindedness. After all, the frenzy makes the character not care about self-preservation. And yes, enemies could do it too then. But I'd allow it as an option.)

Lycar

Roog
2008-11-22, 07:44 PM
Anything that requires a cool head, yes. But then again, what kind of 'tactics' does a berserker need except 'kill stuff' anyway?
Changing to an appopriate weapon.
Droping a shield to use a weapon two handed.
Taking a path that avoids AoOs or otherbattlefield risks.
Using delay or ready actions.
Deciding to attack "the spellcaster behind all the meatshields".
Deciding to use ranged attacks rather than charging into melee.
Steping into a flanking postition.
Chosing targets based on any criteria other than "what's closest".
Retreating from a superior opponent.
Choosing an appropriate level of power attack.
Tring to disarm/trip/suder (you would let him try - but not do it well - why?)
Chose an appropriate time to drink a potion.




Tumbling* or bullrushing or overrunning are perfectly fine for that matter.

Making some convulted tactical moves to squeeze out a positive modifier? Not so much.

(* Yes, raging prevent you from using dex-based skills. But given that the number of available feats is in the quadruple digits and that the Improved Bullrush/Overrun feats aren't usually a high priority for most characters, I would allow a character with tumble to try and get past a row of meatshields raging, but only while soaking up the AoOs as per normal.

So you are willing to change the rules to make up for the feats the Barbarian decided not to take, but don't let him use the ones he has.

It might make some kind of sense if you didn't let him try to disarm at all, but you don't do that, you just penalise him for trying to do the thing he has specifically trained to do.

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 03:01 AM
Well as far as things to boost just my check all of the obvious ones have been stated.

Feat Improved disarm
Gear: Two handed weapon with a bonus to disarm
Gear: Anything that increases size or strength
Gear: Disarming weapon quality, expensive unless you are getting massive gold

But here is another option how about things to reduce your opponents strength or attack power? Since disarm is based on an attack check why not run down some fear effects(Before you chime in about mind affecting immunity understand this is already unoptimized since few non humanoids even use weapons)

Kiai Shout from Complete warrior forces a will save (Poor on most unoptimized melee classes) DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + cha mod Or be Shaken. A quick look at the shaken status gives this benefit of -2 to attacks or in a disarm attempt an effective +2. The main downside with this one is its a standard action to use and can only be used 3 times per day. The upside is the upgrade feat to it causes foes to flee from you.

Or even better just go with "Frightful Presence" from Dragonnomicon that causes any attack or charge you make to force all enemies within 30ft to make a will save at the Same DC as Kiai Shout or be shaken. The downside to this one is a min Cha of 15 and 9 ranks in Intimidate and if they save they can not be affected by it at all for 24 hours.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 03:20 AM
Never do the Disarming Weapon quality. It's a +2 to disarm rolls, at the cost of a +2 bonus. You know what else is a +2 to Disarm rolls? An additional +2 on the weapon. And it adds to damage, and affects normal attacks. :smallamused: Who edited the MiC, again?

RTGoodman
2008-11-23, 03:26 AM
But here is another option how about things to reduce your opponents strength or attack power? Since disarm is based on an attack check why not run down some fear effects(Before you chime in about mind affecting immunity understand this is already unoptimized since few non humanoids even use weapons).

That's not that bad of an idea, and I know there are several threads floating about for Fear Effect/Debuffing optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-1002247). I imagine it'd be pretty easy to make a semi-effective build for a specialized Demoralizer (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167)/Disarmer, as a sort of martial ultimate (humanoid) debuffer.


I kinda wanna play one now...

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 03:48 AM
Just thought of a few more common tactics you can do to improve your chances.

Flanking gives a +2 bonus to attacks and with a feat you can get +4 to flanking(can not remember name at the moment).

Qual's Whip tokens, nice duration, cheap, and it follows your commands and can flank with you even if separated from your party.

You also might want to think about tripping your opponent first, that causes a nice penalty to the targets attack rolls and gives you a free attack with improved trip right after that can be used for a disarm attack.

RebelRogue
2008-11-23, 05:46 AM
Flanking gives a +2 bonus to attacks and with a feat you can get +4 to flanking(can not remember name at the moment).
That would be Vexing Flanker. It requires Combat Reflexes, though.

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 06:00 AM
That would be Vexing Flanker. It requires Combat Reflexes, though.

Yeah but I consider Combat Reflexes just pure awesome(Especially if your DM loves multiple combatants or if you are going for a AoO trigger build) so it could work in more than one build.

Lycar
2008-11-23, 08:09 AM
Droping a shield to use a weapon two handed.
Deciding to attack "the spellcaster behind all the meatshields".
Steping into a flanking postition.
Chosing targets based on any criteria other than "what's closest".
Choosing an appropriate level of power attack.
Tring to disarm/trip/suder (you would let him try - but not do it well - why?)


(Warning, wall of text ahead.)


These things fall under 'fair use during a rage' as far as I'm concerned. Stepping into a flanking position is just instinctive, animals do this too. And eliminating the (perceived) greatest threat first is likewise just common sense.

As for why I wouldn't allow a character to benefit from the Combat Expertise feat tree? The reason is twofold: First, there is the rule about CE not being available during a rage (and if you have a feat but no longer meet the prerequisites, you lose access to that feat. True, ambiguous, the character just can't use CE, hes still has it. But I rule it that way). Plus you also are prohibited from using 'Any ability that requires patience or concentration'.
(Like patiently concentrating on finding just the right moment to strike for your Disarm/Trip/Sunder!)

Perfectly good mechanical reason: Rage gives +2 to to-hit and damage, but -2 on AC. If CE was allowed, one would just end up with a +2 to damage. 'So what's wrong with that?' Well, +2 to damage for a couple of rounds certainly isn't overpowered.

But there is another reason: A barbarian entering a rage makes a choice: He decides to sacrifice his own protection for a better chance to kill his enemie(s). Allowing him to simply negate the downside of this choice is allowing someone to eat his cake and have it. I say no to that.

So CE feats are the character going thru an effort at getting better at something, using experience and training, using his head.

Raging on the other hand is pretty much turning off your intellect and letting your instincts take over. Also, the +4 to strength translates into a +2 for attemped Trip/Disarm/Sunder manouvers. You just don't get the +4 from the feat on top of it (and you need to deal with the AoOs).

RP wise one would have to wonder why a barbarian would bother with the CE chain of feats to begin with. Or if he even meets the prerequisite INT score. I'm not saying that there are no 'smart' barbarians. But they have to chose: Use their smarts or use their rage. They don't get both at the same time.


Changing to an appopriate weapon.
Taking a path that avoids AoOs or otherbattlefield risks.
Retreating from a superior opponent.

Borderline cases. Nobody stops a character from drawing the appropriate weapon before he rages. During a rage... well... he should at least spend a round or 3 fighting before it dawns on him that his current wepon is ineffective.

As for taking a path that avoids AoOs? Nope, not during a rage. Obstacles like bouldes or fences or so can be circumvented of course. Or maybe the barbarian just uses his class skill Jump. That's what the skill is for, among other things.

Retreating from a lost battle... usually a berserker would rather die then to flee. But ending the rage also drops your HP and makes you exhausted. So actually diminishes the chances of a character surviving. Not fun. :smallconfused:

So in that case, instinct takes over. Survival instinct. The character just flees the battle, pretty much acting as if panicked. Once the rage ends or runs out, he can recollect himself and start to think again.


Using delay or ready actions.
Deciding to use ranged attacks rather than charging into melee.
Chose an appropriate time to drink a potion.

Not. During. A. Rage!

If you want ranged attacks, you better decide that before starting to foam from the mouth! If you want to ready or delay actions, you need a certain presence of mind that one simply doesn't have during a rage. Same thing for using equipment. Although an item you intend to use to directly harm the things you want to kill should be fair game, like a weapon that you hope or know to fare better against your foe then your current one.

But you'd drop your current weapon (if only to prevent certain kinds of players to simply switch between their various bane weapons with impunity. Although I might make exceptions for players I trust not to abuse the privilege).




So you are willing to change the rules to make up for the feats the Barbarian decided not to take, but don't let him use the ones he has.

It might make some kind of sense if you didn't let him try to disarm at all, but you don't do that, you just penalise him for trying to do the thing he has specifically trained to do.

I'm willing to make exceptions. If the fighter took the feats and the barbarian didn't, tough for the barbarian. But if nobody in the party has them, and the barbarian player wants to be able to contribute by having his berserker break through the enemy lines to get at the big bad, and is willing to pay the price of soaking up AoOs, then I'd allow him to tumble during a rage.

Otherwise, nothing stops you from tumbling past the enemy as normal and then starting to rage.

It is about the choices people make and the price they pay. Raging gives a barbarian improved combat abilities. The price he pays is that he loses options. It's a tradeoff. Pick one: Sheer power or more versatility. You don't get to eat your cake and have it.



Lycar

Roog
2008-11-23, 01:19 PM
...
It is about the choices people make and the price they pay. Raging gives a barbarian improved combat abilities. The price he pays is that he loses options. It's a tradeoff. Pick one: Sheer power or more versatility. You don't get to eat your cake and have it.


I thought Rage was a class feature not a class trait.

mabriss lethe
2008-11-23, 02:55 PM
Quick solution to all this tangential grumping...

Select the ferocity variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) from Cityscape web enhancement. It specifically allows you access to all feats except metamagic and item creation.

There, problem solved.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 03:44 PM
Quick solution to all this tangential grumping...

Select the ferocity variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) from Cityscape web enhancement. It specifically allows you access to all feats except metamagic and item creation.

There, problem solved.

Meh, don't even need to do that. 90% of the stuff in question isn't even prevented by Rage, it's just some people have this obsession with punishing Barbarians for Raging and making them conform to the simple (and stupid) conception they have of them.

EDIT: And as a side note, Lycar, you said that even though Dex related skills aren't allowed, you'd let them tumble but still take the AoOs.

The only purpose of Tumble is to avoid AoOs, so there is no reason to bother with it if you take the AoOs anyway. You can actually move through someone else's square if you want, you just provoke an AoO.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-23, 04:03 PM
If an ordinary rage is a mindless, foaming-at-the-mouth battle insanity....what's a full-out frenzy?

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-23, 04:03 PM
Who edited the MiC, again?

The person who also added the bonus of making the disarming weapon impossible to be disarmed itself.

I let ragers do tactical maneuvers, simply because it doesn't say that they cannot. It seems like the designer intent was not for the rage to be intense enough that you lose all sense of cunning. In fact, if you really wanted to fluff-over-crunch this, one could say that being tactical while in a rage makes sense because you want to be as effective at killing your target as possible. The frenzy already has a system for how to not act tactically.

Talic
2008-11-23, 04:44 PM
Personally, if you're just trying to get it out of their hand, sunder works better.

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-23, 05:00 PM
My characters invariably end up with aurorum weapons for a reason...

Lycar
2008-11-23, 05:15 PM
The only purpose of Tumble is to avoid AoOs, so there is no reason to bother with it if you take the AoOs anyway. You can actually move through someone else's square if you want, you just provoke an AoO.

Uhm, no. Read the rules again:

PH, page 147, right side:
"Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless..."

Page 148:
"Overrun: During your movement or as part of a charge, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent."

"Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent."

So no, you can not 'actually move through someone else's square if you want'. You need to either dodge (tumble) past him or try to physically bowl him over (overrun).

Although an overrun might still get you past a line of meatshields, if the goon you try to run over decides he'd rather not be tackled by you. In that case, you can just move on.

Tumbling does allow you to move past opponents. And if you make the skill check, you even don't provoke AoOs. So allowing a trained barbarian the use of the tumble to move past enemies, albeit without the chance to avoid the AoOs, is just a compromise.

Besides, if anyone could just waltz past somebody, how would a fighter and his cleric buddy ever block the 10' dungeon corridor, so that the orks don't get at the squishy mage? A square occupied by an enemy is simply blocked, unless you use a special manouver or skill or special ability to get past it.

Lycar

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 05:28 PM
Tumbling does allow you to move past opponents. And if you make the skill check, you even don't provoke AoOs. So allowing a trained barbarian the use of the tumble to move past enemies, albeit without the chance to avoid the AoOs, is just a compromise.

Except the part where you just go around them. Because that's a lot easier.


Besides, if anyone could just waltz past somebody, how would a fighter and his cleric buddy ever block the 10' dungeon corridor, so that the orks don't get at the squishy mage? A square occupied by an enemy is simply blocked, unless you use a special manouver or skill or special ability to get past it.

Um, they don't. Because there is no squishy mage, and blocking the hallway probably causes a bunch of other problems, like giving partial cover to the enemies against the mage and Cleric Archer.

Of course, why they are fighting in a hallway anyways I have no idea, because the Goblins should be trying to use numbers, instead of facing them 2 by 2.

Alternatively, if you really want to block anything, you could just take Undermountain Tactics and have someone cast Enlarge Person.

Lycar
2008-11-23, 07:07 PM
Except the part where you just go around them. Because that's a lot easier.

Helooo! Dungeon! Narrow corridor! There is no way around them!



Um, they don't. Because there is no squishy mage, and blocking the hallway probably causes a bunch of other problems, like giving partial cover to the enemies against the mage and Cleric Archer.

No squishy mage? What the hell are you talking about? :smallconfused:


Of course, why they are fighting in a hallway anyways I have no idea, because the Goblins should be trying to use numbers, instead of facing them 2 by 2.

Because they, like, want to use the corridor as a bottleneck and prevent the party from getting into, I dunno, the throne room maybe? And the goblins in the back happily use their bows because, cover bonus to AC aside, there is so many more of them then of the party?

Sure, if they bunch up like that they ask to be fireballed. But maybe they simply don't know that. Or there is no fireball yet. Or maybe they are desperate.



Alternatively, if you really want to block anything, you could just take Undermountain Tactics and have someone cast Enlarge Person.

Or maybe you just stand there, full defending, and let the 2nd and further lines fire volleys of missiles or cast spells or whatnot. Because they can't get past you unless they incapaciate or overrun you, or maybe tumble past you. If there is a space for them to tumble into.

Honestly, you sound as if you didn't play many dungeon crawls. :smallconfused:

Lycar

Curmudgeon
2008-11-23, 07:39 PM
A square occupied by an enemy is simply blocked, unless you use a special manouver or skill or special ability to get past it.

Helooo! Dungeon! Narrow corridor! There is no way around them! The special maneuver available to most anybody is called squeezing.

Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. Every character can physically fit into an area half as big as it normally requires, which means a medium character can squeeze past another medium character in a 5' wide space. As long as you take the AC penalties (-4 and loss of DEX bonus), the double movement cost, and the AoO for entering the enemy's square, and don't end your turn there, you're fine.

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 09:18 PM
DERAILMENT!!!!!!!!!!!


So back to disarm bonuses and things that allow you to disarm better.

Things that you can do to help someone else disarm
Aid another, yes the +2 bonus converts to the attack roll to disarm. So if you move to flank and Aid your disarm specialist you give a +4 untyped bonus to the next disarm attempt.

A prone target receives a -4 to its attack checks. So a person that focuses on both(Not that hard) can trip first then disarm with an effective +4.

Also you may disarm things like, backpacks, spellbooks, spell component pouches, non armor worn items like cloaks or belts. The funny part is that if you go for a non weapon item its so easy to mess with people.

Your first question should not be what they are holding, but what are they wearing :smallwink:

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 09:18 PM
Helooo! Dungeon! Narrow corridor! There is no way around them!

Except over, under, and through either wall.

And personally, haven't seen many narrow dungeon corridors, they usually tend to be quite spacious.


No squishy mage? What the hell are you talking about?

The fact that the Mage probably has better protections then most other characters.


Because they, like, want to use the corridor as a bottleneck and prevent the party from getting into, I dunno, the throne room maybe? And the goblins in the back happily use their bows because, cover bonus to AC aside, there is so many more of them then of the party?

Use it as a bottleneck against who exactly? That's not a good idea against any real CR threat, so I'm not seeing the idea here. You bottleneck against who exactly? And why? Again, what advantage would the party get from restricting the face of contact, instead of doing something protective.

And for that matter why is there a throne room, and why do the PCs care who gets into it?


Sure, if they bunch up like that they ask to be fireballed. But maybe they simply don't know that. Or there is no fireball yet. Or maybe they are desperate.

Sure if their are four-six Class level goblins you could fireball them, but since they are Stinking Clouding you, you actually can't cast anything at all.

And if you are facing something else, like a Bargest, you are just wasting your time.


Or maybe you just stand there, full defending, and let the 2nd and further lines fire volleys of missiles or cast spells or whatnot. Because they can't get past you unless they incapaciate or overrun you, or maybe tumble past you. If there is a space for them to tumble into.

Or maybe, they just shoot and cast over your head, at the other characters/area that you are trying to protect for some strange reason.

Which is why I suggested Under Mountain Tactics, because it actually blocks line of effect, so that they actually have to attack you.


Honestly, you sound as if you didn't play many dungeon crawls.

Honestly, you sound as if you've never played higher then level 5, and even then you just fought a bunch of 1HD humanoids instead of a real threat.

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 09:27 PM
Derailed again!!!!!!! Please take the tumble arguement to a new thread, I like this one.

I also realized that disarm is not subject to size limitations like either Grappling or Trip.

You can disarm a giant of his super club/sword/whatever. You just have to deal with the strength difference +size modifier. Since there are a lot of Different bonuses you can apply to disarm you should still be able to pull it off on at least 1 size category every time and larger at least some of the time.

My personal favorite is True Strike +20 to disarm, yes please.

RTGoodman
2008-11-24, 12:14 AM
My personal favorite is True Strike +20 to disarm, yes please.

Speaking of spells, there are a LOT that could be used to increase disarm attempts (since they're attack rolls). With some prep-time, you could ask for (or cast) guidance (+1 to one attack), bane and bless (for +1 to you and -1 to enemies), divine favor/power/etc. (Clerics only), aid (+1 for minutes/level), prayer (same as bane + bless, but at higher level), flare (cantrip for Fort-save-or-suck), various fear-causing spells, ray of enfeeblement, enlarge person, web (-2 attack AND -4 Dex, if they're a finesse-type fighter), bull's strength, heroism (and the greater version), ray of exhaustion (touch attack for -6 Str/Dex, or Fort save for only -2), haste and slow, crushing despair, and a LOT of others would all work out pretty well. And, of course, the Wu Jen's giant size spell makes you up to Colossal, I think, so that's a plus.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-24, 05:19 AM
About things against disarm, remember Weapon Supremacy and the master craftsman feat from Dragon Magazine. You are able to craft swords with a + 4 against disarm.

the Cutlass is sorta rapier with a +2 against disarm.

Hida Reju
2008-11-24, 06:55 AM
Lol, you are going to pull 3rd party material out to stop it. Don't make me laugh and Weapon supremacy happens how often? Oh that is right not until like 18th lvl "FIGHTER".

Seriously out side of Gestalt when are you ever going to see it? No monster until epic will have enough extra room to fit it in and if a GM throws an 18th lvl fighter without mage backup then he is toast even with Weapon supremacy. Also remember if he is an 18th lvl fighter then you should be 15-18 of whatever you want and still make 95% of this work.

But your raised a point lets number it out. Its not the Supremancy that is the big deal its the fact that you also got Melee weapon mastery, both weapon focuses and the +4 that makes it even a threat at all. All of those feats together get you a total attack bonus of +4 to your attack roll and another +4 for Supremacy.

For the cost of 18 fighter lvls. I can not see the value unless the guy doing the Disarm was the 18th lvl fighter.

Now continuing, Charges add to your attack roll a base of +2, the attack made at the end of the charage may also be a disarm attempt. Now normally the feat Reckless Charge from the Miniatures handbook is sub optimal but now it almost can be made to work. All this feat does is double the AC penalty to +4 and increase the attack to +4.

All in all I might never use it but it is an option on a fighter build with a few extra feats anyway. But I would only opt for it if retraining was allowed at higher lvls.

Another combat condition that helps to disarm your opponent is being invisible, awesome at low lvls, useful on some things that can not see you first anyway. It is worth another +2 to your attack roll.

Next we have the target being entangled by something, this is worth a -2 on thier attack rolls. Only problem is that most things that entangle outside of psionics hit an area. So this one may be tougher to do.

Can anyone else think of something to boost disarm attempts that I have missed?

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-24, 07:14 AM
Lol, you are going to pull 3rd party material out to stop it. Don't make me laugh and Weapon supremacy happens how often? Oh that is right not until like 18th lvl "FIGHTER".


3d party?

I've seen even a 40th level fighter outside gestalt and he had the feat :smallsmile:

Anyway, make you laugh? There are other things allowing you to avoid be disarmed, and i cited them. I see it's easy to make you laugh :smallwink:

Hida Reju
2008-11-24, 07:31 AM
Yes you quoted one feat with 4 other feats as a prerequisite and one item bonus not in a Offical D&D book that is horrible at best. While I feal the feat is too restrictive because of single class requirements it is vaild and adds to the discussion.

That weapon is a one handed light weapon with a +2 bonus to resist disarms.

Against any two handed weapon in a disarm it starts at only a -2 as opposed to a -4. Sorry not going to give much credit to it. There is a reason I have not mentioned the Sai or the Nunchaku and you just hit it. If you are going to use light weapons and disarm you might as well be unarmed so you can end up with the weapon in your hand at the end of the disarm.


Edit ok it was in a dragonlance book now that I think of it, so its 100% official but still not very effective.

Hida Reju
2008-11-24, 07:42 AM
Also I do not recomend IMO any 3/4 bab class attempting to disarm past lvl 8 unless the are a gish like class or get boosters to attack checks. Some 3/4 bab classes that can pull it off right out of the box are Psionic Warrior, Marshals (Scary how good they can be at disarms and trips for that matter), Factorum(with a lot of work), and bards with a bit of multiclasing to get some better weapons.

I know there are more but monk is not on this list, they get a little bit of everything except ways to increase attack rolls.

My resoning is that almost exclusivly you will want to be a front line fighter to pull this off. If you stay in the back or are a support character then you got no reason to look at disarming big nasty monsters you have to get adjacent to.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-24, 08:24 AM
Hida Reju, yours are valid point, but the cutlass is in faerun too. And it is against disarm. If it's light, for someone isa bad, but for someone else is a good thing. Depends from class and builds.

And as far as I know, DM is official (even if some feat is broken and/or horribly designed, see Elusive Dance). If I'm wrong, apologies.

RTGoodman
2008-11-24, 08:55 AM
And as far as I know, DM is official (even if some feat is broken and/or horribly designed, see Elusive Dance). If I'm wrong, apologies.

Well, it may be "official," but very few DMs allow Dragon Magazine material, with the reason being everything from it is usually horribly balanced and designed.


If you are going to use light weapons and disarm you might as well be unarmed so you can end up with the weapon in your hand at the end of the disarm.

Well, speaking of Dragon Mag, I think there was a feat in it that let you end up with the disarmed weapon/item in your hand as long as you had a hand free, meaning you could get the benefits of unarmed disarming (end up with the weapon) and the benefits of light/one-handed weapon disarming (more bonuses on the check, not having to fight unarmed).

Lycar
2008-11-24, 03:30 PM
Squeezing

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

Every character can physically fit into an area half as big as it normally requires, which means a medium character can squeeze past another medium character in a 5' wide space. As long as you take the AC penalties (-4 and loss of DEX bonus), the double movement cost, and the AoO for entering the enemy's square, and don't end your turn there, you're fine.

Aw man, we didn't know that! :smalleek:

Well, this changes quite a few things. :smallconfused:


DERAILMENT!!!!!!!!!!!

Uhm yes, sorry about that. :smalleek:

Anyway, successfully disarming an opponent has another nice application:

PC: "Didn't your momma tell you never to fight in a thunderstorm?"
NPC: "???"
PC: "Lightning!" *disarms foe*
PC: "Thunder!" *sunders weapon, which now is an unattended object lying on the ground)

Can be done with an iterative attack or with the AoO when the foe tries to pick it up again. Since AoOs happen before the action.

Although I'm not entirely positive that you can use your AoO against the opponent to sunder the weapon he's about to pick up. Does anybody know any clarifications? :smallconfused:

Lycar

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 03:36 PM
Some people say everything that is not core is optional- players or DM can choose to say- Core Overrides Splatbooks.

I've never liked that phrase.

Dragon is a bit borderline- depends how enthusiastic DM is.

Same with non-WOTC D20 content.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 04:42 PM
Some people say everything that is not core is optional- players or DM can choose to say- Core Overrides Splatbooks.

I've never liked that phrase.

Dragon is a bit borderline- depends how enthusiastic DM is.

Same with non-WOTC D20 content.

Are you sure you are posting in the right thread? This has nothing to do with anything.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-24, 05:29 PM
Although I'm not entirely positive that you can use your AoO against the opponent to sunder the weapon he's about to pick up. Does anybody know any clarifications? An AoO from an opponent attempting to pick up a weapon must be made against that opponent, and the AoO happens before the provoking action. At that time the weapon is still on the ground, not in the opponent's possession, so you cannot attack that weapon.

Lycar
2008-11-24, 05:34 PM
Are you sure you are posting in the right thread? This has nothing to do with anything.

Except, maybe, with post #49?

Dragon Magazine had a few fun ideas, but it all is very situational stuff. If it fits the campaign, why not go for it? That feat to disarm with a light weapon and ending up holding it in your free hand has 'swashbuckler' written all over it for example.

Makes disarming more worthwhile because your opponent cannot simply pick his weapon back up again.

And the rascally swashbuckler then taunts his enemy while he throws the weapon out of the next window. Or into the waiting hands of a companion...

NPC: "/&%%! That's my ancestral sword! Give it back!"
PC: "Come and get it then. Catch!" *tosses sword to halfling rogue*
NPC: *enraged, lunges for halfling* "Why you little &$§&!" *provokes AoO* PC: *pokes enemy's behind* "Haha, have at thee, vile knave!"

Very situational of course but can be fun if GM and players co-operate. :smallsmile:

Lycar

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 05:34 PM
Dragon mag as Not Quite Official?

I'd comb it for ideas worth using anyway, but wouldn't expect to take them to a convention game.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-25, 03:01 AM
Dragon mag as Not Quite Official?
Actually, quite the opposite. Wizards of the Coast blessed Dragon magazine with the stamp of "100% Official D&D".

Deepblue706
2008-11-25, 03:37 AM
A Potion of Bull's Strength gives disarm bonuses. Technically.

Lycar
2008-11-25, 12:53 PM
So does a potion of Cat's Grace if you use finesse. Technically. :smallamused:

Lycar

Hida Reju
2008-11-25, 02:32 PM
Like I said any spell that can increase your attack checks or reduce your opponents is a bonus to disarm as well.

Funny enough its no surprise that a buffing cleric is your best friend for a disarm specialist. One or two good spells can make it easy to disarm in your favor.

Lycar
2008-11-25, 03:48 PM
In that case, gumming an opponent up with a Tanglefoot bag increases your chances to disarm him, if he's a finesse fighter. Otherwise, it will just hinder the opponents AoO if you don't have Improved Disarm.

Lycar

Talic
2008-11-25, 04:08 PM
Now, we can't have barbarians gain the benefit of Cat's grace potions while raged.

After all, that barbarian made a choice to lower his AC, so he shouldn't be allowed to do anything that raises it.

My, that's a lot of stretch when compared to "the barbarian can't use combat expertise".

Lycar
2008-11-25, 05:34 PM
Now, we can't have barbarians gain the benefit of Cat's grace potions while raged.

Sure he can get the benefit of increased dexterity. If he remembers to drink the potion before he goes off raging. Don't put words in my mouth here.

Lycar

woodenbandman
2008-11-25, 06:37 PM
@ barbarian haters: Rage is flavor. I have seen an excellent argument that suggests that Barbarian is a much better representative of a Monk than a monk is. Their flavor of the class is that the character concentrated his Ki, which gave him greater strength and endurance on the battlefield. That would allow him to trip people and stuff like that.

The rules exist for a reason, and a house rule may make absolute sense, such as restricting a barbarian's rage, but it often ends up upsetting the balance, usually in favor of the DM, because he's powertripping. And who the hell ever needed AC as a barbarian, anyway? I always do a minimum 400 damage per round as a barbarian, all at the expense of my AC.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-26, 03:16 AM
@ barbarian haters: Rage is flavor. I have seen an excellent argument that suggests that Barbarian is a much better representative of a Monk than a monk is. Their flavor of the class is that the character concentrated his Ki, which gave him greater strength and endurance on the battlefield. That would allow him to trip people and stuff like that.

The rules exist for a reason, and a house rule may make absolute sense, such as restricting a barbarian's rage, but it often ends up upsetting the balance, usually in favor of the DM, because he's powertripping. And who the hell ever needed AC as a barbarian, anyway? I always do a minimum 400 damage per round as a barbarian, all at the expense of my AC.

Even if I LOVE barbarians, I disagree. In rage you cannot use Combat Expertise or similar abilities, so is very different from a focus. It's a rage, period.