Belkar is wrong. *spoilers*

[Corwin Weber]

Now, don't get me wrong here, we're about to see some sexy shoeless badassery and hurtin, but The Belkster is wrong and he's sealed his fate. Like many of you.... I wondered what answer B was going to give to Shojo's question... and while it was a badass answer and true to form....

It's wrong. The passcode shows us this. 'Evolve or die.' The answer Shojo was looking for was 'A player.' Belkar still doesn't get it, and Shojo wants him to. Shojo here is part of the curse. Either his ghost or (more likely) a pre-programmed image that's part of the curse to get people like Belkar to 'get it.'

Belkar, awesome tho he's being, is wrong and will fulfill the Oracle's prophecy.

[theinsulabot]

belkar's answer may or may not be wrong, though the fact that the answer directly lead to him getting the curse removed, i am inclined to think it was at least partially correct. your answer however is undoubtedly wrong. that issue has been done over and over again. none of the order is or ever was actual players

[David Argall]

"Player", like most words, has a variety of meanings. See #19 for a different meaning.
Here, I would think our OP had in mind Belkar should have said he was important, a mover and shaker, not just another pawn, not that he was an actual player of a game.

[Corwin Weber]

Read the Shojo vision strips again. You're makin exactly the same mistake Belkar did.

[busterswd]

Read what Shojo actually queries in the most recent strip.

"How can you succeed at pretending to be something else without knowing exactly what you are in the first place? So what are you, Belkar?"

It already took the "acting" part into account. Even the dream strips weren't a suggestion for Belkar to actually change who he is, but to give the impression that he changed.

[Sir_Hobbit]

I'd like to disagree with the original post. Shojo was drilling Belkar on what sets him apart from everyone else, not drilling Belkar to be a player in "the Game". And Belkar did evolve; becoming sneakier and less blatantly a God of War of the sexy and shoeless variety.

Also, Belkar's answer may have saved him and the cleric from death by rogues. Note that the cleric of Loki interpreted "I'm a sexy shoeless God of War" as the answer to his question if Belkar is a good fighter, and took that as the reason that to cure him, free of charge.

So yeah, disagreed on all counts. :smalltongue:

[Demented]

If he wants to exist in this world without getting squashed like the irritating mosquito that he is, he needs to pretend to not be a sexy shoeless god of war.

The only problem with that is that I don't see belkar as wearing shoes any time soon.

[fangthane]

@corwin - First, claiming that as fact rather than opinion is offensive. Second, it presupposes several things which may or may not be accurate. People building cases based entirely on supposition and assumption shouldn't deal in absolutes.

You believe that Belkar gave the wrong answer. However, if the cleric did successfully remove the Mark, that doesn't matter a whit since the mark no longer affects Belkar (other than residually) in that case. If he'd undergone "real" change, maybe he'd have found a way to avoid his ultimate fate, true - but then, he was destined not to find that way. The Oracle's said so and while he's a sneaky and evil little lizard, he's scrupulously honest.

And, honestly, in Belkar's case his self-image is based entirely on his ability to be a badass. What other answer cleaves as close to his honest self-image as the one he gave? That's right; there is none.

[Querzis]

It was the right answer, Shojo asked him to say what he was, not what he had to pretend to be. And, if you dont realize it, that answer saved him since the cleric thought he was answering him. So no.

That being said, with the password «evolve or die» I think we can safely say the hallucination was part of the mark or justice (Shojo is still so freaking smart even after his death).

[Corwin Weber]

It was the right answer, Shojo asked him to say what he was, not what he had to pretend to be. And, if you dont realize it, that answer saved him since the cleric thought he was answering him. So no.

That being said, with the password «evolve or die» I think we can safely say the hallucination was part of the mark or justice (Shojo is still so freaking smart even after his death).

Yes, he is.

A player isn't what he's pretending to be, it's what he is. Shojo's goal is to make him a player. Currently he isn't. He isn't playing the game, and he still doesn't fully accept the need to play the game. Shojo's goal is to make him a player. A cheating player, sure.... but still a player.

[Spiky]

You seem to have forgotten that Shojo is dead, and did not want to come back. Belkar is dreaming Shojo, he is not really there. The last few strips with Shojo have been Belkar talking to himself, hence I would say he is trying to wake himself up (and not just physically) to get back to fighting. He has been sick and therefore inactive for some time, his psyche must be absolutely frustrated.

[Scarab83]

Belkar already agreed to play the game, in #606. Shojo convinced him to play, even if he has to cheat while playing. This new strip is an entirely different issue. How can he pretend to be something else (i.e. cheat), without first knowing who he truly is.

[starburst98]

It was the right answer, Shojo asked him to say what he was, not what he had to pretend to be. And, if you dont realize it, that answer saved him since the cleric thought he was answering him. So no.

i agree, belkar says what he was not what he is going to pretend to be.

[dps]

You seem to have forgotten that Shojo is dead, and did not want to come back. Belkar is dreaming Shojo, he is not really there. The last few strips with Shojo have been Belkar talking to himself, hence I would say he is trying to wake himself up (and not just physically) to get back to fighting. He has been sick and therefore inactive for some time, his psyche must be absolutely frustrated.

Given that the passcode is "Evolve or die" I think that the idea that Shojo isn't just a hallucination that Belkar is having, but part of the curse, has a lot of merit. Yeah, Shojo is dead and isn't coming back, but if his appearance here is a pre-planned part of the curse, there's no need for him to be alive for him to interact with Belkar in this manner.

[SPoD]

The only benefit of being "a player" as Shojo describes it is to allow one to be the Chaotic person they really truly are in the face of society's pressure. The "player" is a construct built on top of the existing personality. Without the underlying troublemaking personality, there is no need to be a player in the way Shojo describes in #606. The evolution needed was simply to put on the mask--not to change his true core being--which Belkar is going to do.

While I hate to invoke TV Tropes, it would seem that this is simply Shojo warning Belkar to not "Become the Mask".

So, yeah, I also disagree with the OP on all counts.

[Manoftyr]

Given that the passcode is "Evolve or die" I think that the idea that Shojo isn't just a hallucination that Belkar is having, but part of the curse, has a lot of merit. Yeah, Shojo is dead and isn't coming back, but if his appearance here is a pre-planned part of the curse, there's no need for him to be alive for him to interact with Belkar in this manner.

That's the one main thing that makes me believe that really was Shojo and not a hallucination, the passcode was far too conveniently applicable to the situation.

Of course, one could argue that, that the Shojo apparition was still not Shojo but just another aspect of the curse seal but that somehow 'to me at least' seems to be the slightly more contrived explanation.

On the topic of whether or not Belkar is 'wrong' so to speak SPoD pretty much beat me to the punch of exactly what I was going to say, so my own position on it pretty much echoes hers.

[Corwin Weber]

The only benefit of being "a player" as Shojo describes it is to allow one to be the Chaotic person they really truly are in the face of society's pressure. The "player" is a construct built on top of the existing personality. Without the underlying troublemaking personality, there is no need to be a player in the way Shojo describes in #606. The evolution needed was simply to put on the mask--not to change his true core being--which Belkar is going to do.

While I hate to invoke TV Tropes, it would seem that this is simply Shojo warning Belkar to not "Become the Mask".

So, yeah, I also disagree with the OP on all counts.

The benefit you're missing to all of this is 'Belkar doesn't get his ass killed. (Probably. At least no more likely to than anybody else.)'

[Scarab83]

The benefit you're missing to all of this is 'Belkar doesn't get his ass killed. (Probably. At least no more likely to than anybody else.)'

No power in the 'verse can stop Belkar.. except the elderly, apparently.

[SPoD]

The benefit you're missing to all of this is 'Belkar doesn't get his ass killed. (Probably. At least no more likely to than anybody else.)'

I fail to see the connection at all. The Oracle's prophecies are 100% unavoidable, Belkar WILL die whether he changes or not. It's just a matter of how and when.

Further, no one in this scene (other than Roy) is even aware of Belkar's death prophecy, including Shojo--even if it really IS Shojo and not just a figment or the curse.

Your point seems to rest on the idea that there was a path for Belkar to avoid his death, but if the Oracle's prophecies had ANY room for changing them, couldn't the Oracle have prevented his own painful death easily enough?

[Corwin Weber]

I fail to see the connection at all. The Oracle's prophecies are 100% unavoidable, Belkar WILL die whether he changes or not. It's just a matter of how and when.

Further, no one in this scene (other than Roy) is even aware of Belkar's death prophecy, including Shojo--even if it really IS Shojo and not just a figment or the curse.

Your point seems to rest on the idea that there was a path for Belkar to avoid his death, but if the Oracle's prophecies had ANY room for changing them, couldn't the Oracle have prevented his own painful death easily enough?

There was such a path. Whether he actually knew about it or whether it would have actually worked is irrelevant.

The pieces are now simply falling into place.

[the_tick_rules]

But Belkar is a sexy shoeless god of war. But referring to his death, i supposew it's possible.

[Manoftyr]

There was such a path. Whether he actually knew about it or whether it would have actually worked is irrelevant.

The pieces are now simply falling into place.

That goes against everything we know about the oracle thus far, his prophecies are unavoidable therefore there was no 'other path'. The only difference is whether Belkar went out in a blaze of glory like he's about to, or died ignominiously from a sickness.

Considering it looks like it's going to be the former, logic seems to dictate Belkar made the right choice considering his character and what he values I.E. violence.

[SPoD]

There was such a path.

Sorry, this is an assertion with no supporting evidence in the comic. It's a nice idea, but one that simply has no basis in anything we've seen so far.

[Corwin Weber]

That goes against everything we know about the oracle thus far, his prophecies are unavoidable therefore there was no 'other path'. The only difference is whether Belkar went out in a blaze of glory like he's about to, or died ignominiously from a sickness.

Considering it looks like it's going to be the former, logic seems to dictate Belkar made the right choice considering his character and what he values I.E. violence.

Not exactly. The Oracle's prophecies always come true. This just means that there's no other path that would work. The path itself can still exist. Look over stories about prophecy. Having an unacceptable or otherwise unworkable way out of a prophecy is actually pretty common. The prophecy still comes true.

[Corwin Weber]

Sorry, this is an assertion with no supporting evidence in the comic. It's a nice idea, but one that simply has no basis in anything we've seen so far.

You're assuming that Shojo's plan to convert Belkar into a workable chaotic character has worked. This is what has no basis in what we've seen yet. Belkar very easily have just missed the entire point and gone on as usual anyway.

The fact that Shojo has offered him a way out doesn't mean that Belkar actually took it, and neither does the fact that Belkar clearly thinks he did take it. (Low wisdom, remember?)

[Scarab83]

Not exactly. The Oracle's prophecies always come true. This just means that there's no other path that would work. The path itself can still exist. Look over stories about prophecy. Having an unacceptable or otherwise unworkable way out of a prophecy is actually pretty common. The prophecy still comes true.

If it's not an attainable path, then it's not really a path at all.

"Oh, he could have become a god spontaneously, thus letting him avoid the prophecy. He just didn't take the necessary steps to attain godhood." Something about that logic feels.. flawed.

[Corwin Weber]

If it's not an attainable path, then it's not really a path at all.

"Oh, he could have become a god spontaneously, thus letting him avoid the prophecy. He just didn't take the necessary steps to attain godhood." Something about that logic feels.. flawed.

Unsuccessful isn't the same as unattainable. Belkar could decide to 'play the game.' For all we know he thinks he has. This doesn't mean that he's somehow gained several points of wisdom. It's reasonable, (unlike spontaneously becoming a god) but still fundamentally unworkable.

Or he could actually have done so and he'll be killed by something entirely unrelated. Who knows?

[Spiky]

Given that the passcode is "Evolve or die" I think that the idea that Shojo isn't just a hallucination that Belkar is having, but part of the curse, has a lot of merit. Yeah, Shojo is dead and isn't coming back, but if his appearance here is a pre-planned part of the curse, there's no need for him to be alive for him to interact with Belkar in this manner.

But that's always his passcode. That's how the cleric knows it. It isn't special for Belkar, that's what Shojo always uses, a commentary on criminals. There isn't really anything metaphysical going on, here. G has convinced readers that there is, but there isn't.

And if I'm wrong about Shojo really being metaphysically present in the dream/hallucination, it is still a password about criminals, not webcomic-4th-wall-breaking-player-characters.

(but I'm not wrong, you'll see)

[Moff Chumley]

Did the Oracle spedify the time of Belkar's death?

[Spiky]

Did the Oracle spedify the time of Belkar's death?

Not date and time. But he did specify a lifespan.

[Warren Dew]

Further, no one in this scene (other than Roy) is even aware of Belkar's death prophecy, including Shojo--even if it really IS Shojo and not just a figment or the curse.

Good point. That pretty much blows the "passphrase implies it was a real Shojo" argument out of the water.

And frankly, I don't think "evolve or die" really has more than a passing bearing on the situation at all.

[Corwin Weber]

Good point. That pretty much blows the "passphrase implies it was a real Shojo" argument out of the water.

And frankly, I don't think "evolve or die" really has more than a passing bearing on the situation at all.

Not a bit. It's Shojo's message.

Hinjo specifically said that Azure City's legal code doesn't use the MoJ. That was all Shojo. The vision was preprogrammed so that Shojo's..... let's call them would-be protegees would see it and hopefully get his message of 'shape up or you're going to end up a mosquito.'

[archon_huskie]

gods don't breathe.

Belkar is a god . . .

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Ah, you can't be wrong when you're a sexy shoeless god of war. Go, Belkar!

[Erloas]

The problem with the OP's idea is that, to me at least, it is implying that by becoming a player Belkar will automatically be assured to live and make it through. It seems to revolve around the premise that players don't die and they always make it through any situation. But we know that isn't the case, because Roy is as much "a player" in that sense as Belkar could ever hope to be and it sure didn't save him. Haley is also players and it really doesn't seem to be helping her much either (of course it does seem like she is about to be saved).

[Roderick_BR]

Now, don't get me wrong here, we're about to see some sexy shoeless badassery and hurtin, but The Belkster is wrong and he's sealed his fate. Like many of you.... I wondered what answer B was going to give to Shojo's question... and while it was a badass answer and true to form....

It's wrong. The passcode shows us this. 'Evolve or die.' The answer Shojo was looking for was 'A player.' Belkar still doesn't get it, and Shojo wants him to. Shojo here is part of the curse. Either his ghost or (more likely) a pre-programmed image that's part of the curse to get people like Belkar to 'get it.'

Belkar, awesome tho he's being, is wrong and will fulfill the Oracle's prophecy.

Nopes, Shojo's hallucination actually tells him "not THIS type of game". Unless you mean "playah" :smallwink:

[Corwin Weber]

Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait.

Pay special attention to the part where they're sitting around a table in tshirts and surrounded by D&D material and Shojo specifically says 'Not that kind of player.'

Have you all seen that part?

Now.

Notice that Shojo then goes on to tell Belkar exactly what kind of player he needs to be.

Read it. Understand it. Before you comment. Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept, the fact that I myself do understand what he said, or both.

[Hydro Globus]

It was the right answer, Shojo asked him to say what he was, not what he had to pretend to be. And, if you dont realize it, that answer saved him since the cleric thought he was answering him. So no.

That being said, with the password «evolve or die» I think we can safely say the hallucination was part of the mark or justice (Shojo is still so freaking smart even after his death).

i agree, belkar says what he was not what he is going to pretend to be.

You two have it right.

[player2]

:smallconfused:
Someone is a little rude, because I think I only saw 2-3 people in this whole thread that actually asked what kind of "player" you were referring to.

So, Notice that Shojo then goes on to tell Belkar exactly what kind of player he needs to be...

Now, actually read the rest of the strip. Yep.

Anyways, I'll apologize right there (Sorry). Just had to mock you a bit. :smallbiggrin:

Moving on. Your opening post makes it sound like you may of misread the question or still have a different definition of the word 'player'.
In that chunk of text you want us to read, his suggestion to Belkar is to cheat. Which a majority in this thread, including myself, pretty much conclude that Shojo is saying to not ACTUALLY be a player, but pretend to be a player...

Now, if you believe a cheating player is still a player, your opinion, but I would disagree. A cheating player is only pretending to be a player due to the fact that said player is not playing by the rules. (Ultimately, that's just my opinion. I mean, that's why they're called 'cheaters'... right?)

So rolling with that, Shojo wants Belkar to act as a player (or be a cheater), not to be a player, and Shojo's question in a nutshell is, "Pretend to be a player, but who are you behind that mask?" (#610, Panel 5)
So the answer cannot correctly be "a Player", since Shojo understood in #606 - Panel 9 - that Belkar clearly does not want to conform. So it would seem 'a Player' isn't the answer Shojo would want.

I think I've confused everyone who reads this, I suck at internet talk.

Oh, and about not saying 'a Player' means he'll die. I'd assume that if the cleric heard 'a Player' being said from Belkar, he would not even attempt to remove curse. After that, the thieves break in and kill them both, or the cleric would kill Belkar and raise him as some kind of zombie distraction and then attempt an escape. This is already under the assumption that "Evolve or Die" is the correct passcode. Which is much different than squiddlydoddlefluffer... Maybe Shojo learned, he clearly isn't stupid. (or maybe Roy just lied.)

So lots of things to assume, but nothing can be proven yet. blahblahblahblah I'm never gonna click submit unless I end it here.

[busterswd]

Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait.

Pay special attention to the part where they're sitting around a table in tshirts and surrounded by D&D material and Shojo specifically says 'Not that kind of player.'

Have you all seen that part?

Now.

Notice that Shojo then goes on to tell Belkar exactly what kind of player he needs to be.

Read it. Understand it. Before you comment. Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept, the fact that I myself do understand what he said, or both.

The entire flow of their conversation about players is pretty much spelled out by Shojo. What is the game these players are participating in? It's the game of putting up a front, or as he puts it "putting on your face and getting through the day without breaking character." In other words, playing the game entails pretending to be something you're not in order to be accepted.

In the comic you keep raving about, again, Shojo asks him (paraphrased): You should make certain of your own identity before you pretend to be something else. Who are you?

The assumption is implicit in this question that Belkar will play the game, since the game IS pretending to be something you are not.

[Hydro Globus]

Yes. Belkar will pretend he is not a SSGoW.

Poor us! :)

[Kurald Galain]

Belkar is wrong. He says he's chaotic evil, when clearly his behavior so far has been neutral good.
In unrelated news, paladins cannot Detect Sarcasm. Can you?

[WychWeird]

In the comic you keep raving about, again, Shojo asks him (paraphrased): You should make certain of your own identity before you pretend to be something else. Who are you?

The assumption is implicit in this question that Belkar will play the game, since the game IS pretending to be something you are not.

Exactly, watch Dexter as an example of this!

As for the cleric, he is looking to save his own skin - if Belkar had muttered, "I fart arrows" then that answer would have been "Good enough for me". He isn't a combat style cleric so anyone that could fight for him is a bonus.

[Koshiro]

gods don't breathe.

Belkar is a god . . .
Gods not only do not breathe. They are also "not long for this world", since they are not of this world. They do not need pensions and they probably don't celebrate birthdays.
... and the Oracle may or may not have trouble precogging into other planes (see Roy.)

[Scarab83]

Sorry OP, but I don't think ALL of us are wrong.

[Spiky]

Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait.


How condescending. You really should only do condescension when you are actually in a position of accuracy. Which you aren't. Keep waiting, til comic 1000, if necessary. You will get your answer, and breaking completely through the 4th wall will NOT be it.

[Corwin Weber]

How condescending. You really should only do condescension when you are actually in a position of accuracy. Which you aren't. Keep waiting, til comic 1000, if necessary. You will get your answer, and breaking completely through the 4th wall will NOT be it.

Since clearly half of you seem to be under the impression that I think Belkar has a human player in the real world.... apparently not.

[busterswd]

Since clearly half of you seem to be under the impression that I think Belkar has a human player in the real world.... apparently not.

No, "player" does not refer to Belkar as an entity of DnD, but it's not the "correct" answer to Shojo's question either. You're still incorrect and have yet to refute that.

[hungryLIKEALION]

OP needs to step off his high horse and realize he doesn't have some bizarre insight into the Giant's storytelling that no one else has. He needs to accept the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he's wrong.

Which he is, btw.

[xXEXODUSXx]

OP needs to step off his high horse and realize he doesn't have some bizarre insight into the Giant's storytelling that no one else has. He needs to accept the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he's wrong.

Which he is, btw.

yes, this pretty much decribes it for me theres is no way of telling what could happen. if we take this as an actual game then the oracle (as well as being as helping them out) was a subtle hint to belkars player but he was on the couck eating cheato's (see #606). and it may just be a great story that keeps everyone guessing.

lets see where this goes and see if anyone can get a lucky guess

[Corwin Weber]

OP needs to step off his high horse and realize he doesn't have some bizarre insight into the Giant's storytelling that no one else has. He needs to accept the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he's wrong.

Which he is, btw.

We'll just have to wait and see won't we.

Honestly I have no idea where all this 'high horse' and 'condescending' crap comes from. You're the ones reading that in, but hey.... if that's what gets you through the day, so be it.

[dps]

Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept, the fact that I myself do understand what he said, or both.


I'd say that we all understand that you think that you understand what was said.

[Alair]

Honestly I have no idea where all this 'high horse' and 'condescending' crap comes from. You're the ones reading that in, but hey.... if that's what gets you through the day, so be it.

If everyone's saying it, maybe you should be the one trying to answer that?

Anyways though, I'm with spod. "A player" would miss the entire point, Shojo's asking Belkar what he is, at the most fundamental level, behind the mask he's teaching him to wear.

[Corwin Weber]

If everyone's saying it, maybe you should be the one trying to answer that?

Anyways though, I'm with spod. "A player" would miss the entire point, Shojo's asking Belkar what he is, at the most fundamental level, behind the mask he's teaching him to wear.

For it to work, the mask has to be the person.

The reason it hasn't worked so far is that Belkar hasn't even bothered to try to make it that way. And at this rate, he's going to end up a mosquito. This is what Shojo is trying to tell him, and probably others as well.... hence, evolve or die.

[Helanna]

For it to work, the mask has to be the person.


I . . . don't even know what you're trying to say here. But I'll say that you are coming off as very condescending. I don't CARE if you meant it that way, that's how it sounds, so don't say that it's not there and we're just reading too much into it, because that sounds even more condescending.

I'm of the opinion that the answer of "a player" would have been wrong. Shojo wasn't asking Belkar to repeat what he was just told. He wanted Belkar to distinguish himself, to stop being defined by his race or alignment, and to figure out what he was without any masks or games. "A player" is exactly what Belkar isn't right now. That's what Shojo just told him - to become a player.

Anyway, I have a question - what's with all the people who think the vision was a part of the curse? If it was, how would Shojo be able to actually hold a conversation with Belkar? Wouldn't he just have had some type of general message? :smallconfused: It's possible, of course, but I don't think it's likely. Why do you guys think that it is part of the curse?


That's the one main thing that makes me believe that really was Shojo and not a hallucination, the passcode was far too conveniently applicable to the situation.

That would probably be applicable to ANY situation involving the removal of a Mark of Justice. Besides, shouldn't the passcode have been set before it had to be taken off? Like, before Shojo's death?

[Batmankoff]

Assuming that the oracle can't be wrong means that there is no free will from his perspective why would the oracle want to live if he knew everything he did was a reaction and there is no choice? plus the oracle thought that Roy wouldn't remember so maybe those to things will make Belkar live longer?

I'm Batman

[Batmankoff]

wait no the oracle knew he would remember sorry... it was a divination.

[Corwin Weber]

I . . . don't even know what you're trying to say here. But I'll say that you are coming off as very condescending. I don't CARE if you meant it that way, that's how it sounds, so don't say that it's not there and we're just reading too much into it, because that sounds even more condescending.

I'm of the opinion that the answer of "a player" would have been wrong. Shojo wasn't asking Belkar to repeat what he was just told. He wanted Belkar to distinguish himself, to stop being defined by his race or alignment, and to figure out what he was without any masks or games. "A player" is exactly what Belkar isn't right now. That's what Shojo just told him - to become a player.

Anyway, I have a question - what's with all the people who think the vision was a part of the curse? If it was, how would Shojo be able to actually hold a conversation with Belkar? Wouldn't he just have had some type of general message? :smallconfused: It's possible, of course, but I don't think it's likely. Why do you guys think that it is part of the curse?



That would probably be applicable to ANY situation involving the removal of a Mark of Justice. Besides, shouldn't the passcode have been set before it had to be taken off? Like, before Shojo's death?

Look. Knock it off. I really don't know where you all are getting this.

If I was being condescending, half the people on this thread would be in tears. I'm actually very good at it. If my refusing to dance around a topic with 'oh well I don't know but I think such and such' and 'well I don't want to seem too forward, but if you don't mind an opinion' is condescending to you, that's your issue, not mine.

Now, as far as the topic is concerned, Belkar is entirely aware of who he is without the mask. The fact that he hasn't been using a mask and hasn't thought he needed one is in fact the entire problem in the first place. Shojo knew this. Odds are he also knew it with others before Belkar. (Hence the passcode.)

He does need one. He hasn't been using one. Without one he's going to get swatted. He needs to evolve or die.

[Quorothorn]

Belkar is wrong. He says he's chaotic evil, when clearly his behavior so far has been neutral good.
In unrelated news, paladins cannot Detect Sarcasm. Can you?

Hush, Mr. Colbert.


Assuming that the oracle can't be wrong means that there is no free will from his perspective why would the oracle want to live if he knew everything he did was a reaction and there is no choice? plus the oracle thought that Roy wouldn't remember so maybe those to things will make Belkar live longer?

And there is my whole problem with "prophecy".

[Corwin Weber]

Hush, Mr. Colbert.



And there is my whole problem with "prophecy".

You're not the only one. Frank Herbert had a fair amount to say on that subject.

[Reverent-One]

He does need one. He hasn't been using one. Without one he's going to get swatted. He needs to evolve or die.

You're right that he needs a mask, but that doesn't mean he answered the question wrong. In the question Shojo(or whatever it is) says in #610, he even mentions this. "How can you succeed at pretending to be someone else without knowing exactly what you are in the first place". The correct answer for Belkar is that he is a sexy, shoeless god of war. Now, for him to learn his lesson, he needs to be able to put a mask on top of that.

[Shatteredtower]

Mr. Weber, your premise is hopelessly flawed.

a) Our cleric only knows the password because it's the one Shojo always used.
b) Shojo applied the password when he was alive. He had no prophetic gifts, as proven by how he died. He also had no reason to know that Belkar wasn't a player, back when he placed the curse.
c) A player, no matter how you define the term, is just one more label, like class, race, and alignment.

[awibs]

Now, don't get me wrong here, we're about to see some sexy shoeless badassery and hurtin, but The Belkster is wrong and he's sealed his fate. Like many of you.... I wondered what answer B was going to give to Shojo's question... and while it was a badass answer and true to form....

It's wrong. The passcode shows us this. 'Evolve or die.' The answer Shojo was looking for was 'A player.' Belkar still doesn't get it, and Shojo wants him to. Shojo here is part of the curse. Either his ghost or (more likely) a pre-programmed image that's part of the curse to get people like Belkar to 'get it.'

Belkar, awesome tho he's being, is wrong and will fulfill the Oracle's prophecy.

This is a very good theory, although I happen to disagree, because I think "evolve" doesn't necessarily mean "to be a better person." One just needs to evolve to be more effective at not dying. In this particular strip, I think Shojo's "ghost" is driving at the point that he needs to have a good grip on what exactly he needs to hide or not hide.

[Helanna]

but hey.... if that's what gets you through the day, so be it.


Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait.

Have you all seen that part?

Now.

Notice that Shojo then goes on to tell Belkar exactly what kind of player he needs to be.

Read it. Understand it. Before you comment. Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept, the fact that I myself do understand what he said, or both.


If I was being condescending, half the people on this thread would be in tears. I'm actually very good at it.

^ Condescension. It SOUNDS condescending. It's not just me. I doubt that the entire thread is mis-reading everything. You sounded condescending when you denied that you sounded condescending! I seriously doubt that anyone in this thread would be reduced to tears by some random guy on the internet insulting them, and it's pretty stupid to think so.



a) Our cleric only knows the password because it's the one Shojo always used.
b) Shojo applied the password when he was alive. He had no prophetic gifts, as proven by how he died. He also had no reason to know that Belkar wasn't a player, back when he placed the curse.
c) A player, no matter how you define the term, is just one more label, like class, race, and alignment.

This.

[Quorothorn]

You're not the only one. Frank Herbert had a fair amount to say on that subject.

And I am reminded yet again that I have to find time to read Dune. Thanks.:smallsmile:

[Scarab83]

At this point he's either an intentional troll or an unintentional troll, and there's no reasoning with trolls, so it's best just to let the thread die because he's not going to ever realize how wrong he is.

[Querzis]

At this point he's either an intentional troll or an unintentional troll, and there's no reasoning with trolls, so it's best just to let the thread die because he's not going to ever realize how wrong he is.

I second that. I feel like I'm arguing with David argall again except that David isnt condescending and is actually right sometimes.

By the way:


If I was being condescending, half the people on this thread would be in tears.

That really made me laugh. «Oh no, a random guy on the internet is insulting everyone because nobody agree with him! :smallfrown:. I'm so depressed!»

[Hydro Globus]

At this point he's either an intentional troll or an unintentional troll, and there's no reasoning with trolls, so it's best just to let the thread die because he's not going to ever realize how wrong he is.

I second that. I feel like I'm arguing with David argall again except that David isnt condescending and is actually right sometimes.


I won't second that. Instead, I won't write in this topic so that it can die for the reasons Scarab wrote.

Wait, I think I just failed a WIS check... but never mind...

[Corwin Weber]

^ Condescension. It SOUNDS condescending. It's not just me. I doubt that the entire thread is mis-reading everything. You sounded condescending when you denied that you sounded condescending! I seriously doubt that anyone in this thread would be reduced to tears by some random guy on the internet insulting them, and it's pretty stupid to think so.



This.

If that's what you consider to be condescending, I'm amazed that you've made it this far on the Internet. If big words are your definition of condescension, I shouldn't bother continuing this, but what the hell. By the way, it isn't 'the entire thread.' It's about three of you. Grow up.

[Corwin Weber]

This is a very good theory, although I happen to disagree, because I think "evolve" doesn't necessarily mean "to be a better person." One just needs to evolve to be more effective at not dying. In this particular strip, I think Shojo's "ghost" is driving at the point that he needs to have a good grip on what exactly he needs to hide or not hide.

Honestly I think we're making more or less the same point here. Belkar isn't going to be a better person, but if Shojo's little plan here works, he'll seem like one. Evolve in this case means the same thing it usually does, adapt. B needs to seem like he's playing the game whether he is or not.

[Corwin Weber]

And I am reminded yet again that I have to find time to read Dune. Thanks.:smallsmile:

Welcome. :smallbiggrin:

[DreadSpoon]

Look. Knock it off. I really don't know where you all are getting this.

That right there? That's the rude part.

The condescending part? You quite literally said "all of you are failing to understand what apparently only I can understand, go read the comic again until you all manage to be as smart as I am." That is practically the definition of condescending.

When you try to say that you and you alone are right and _everybody else_ is wrong, you're obviously out of touch with reality. When you say something and everybody interprets it one way and then you try to claim that they're interpreting it wrong, it was your failure to communicate and not their failure to understand. When you make a claim as fact and the only evidence you can give is "you just have to interpret it the way I am which is the only right way," your fact is flawed and your logic is unsound.

You're not as bright as you seem to think you are. You are not smarter than everybody else. You are not a unique and special snowflake destined to be cherished and respected by the peabrain forum dwellers. You're just another jackass on the Internet with no functioning social or communication skills.

Seriously, you would make people cry if you tried to be condescending? This is the Internet. There is absolutely nothing you can do to hurt anyone's feelings here. When you act like a dipstick on the Internet -- which you are -- the grand sum of what you accomplish is the diminishing of your own credibility. Jackassery is the last resort of a desperate man with a deflating self ego, not a valid debate tactic. Repeatedly telling everyone that they're wrong and you're right over and over without actually offering any new insight is absolute proof that you don't actually have any insight in the first place; you just threw out a wildly flawed statement and are now attempting to defend your ego because admitting that you are not an infallible genius is something you can't bear to do.

Are you right? I don't know. Are you wrong? Still don't know. There's no absolute proof either way. I think your theory stinks of bad narration, but the Giant is not perfect, so maybe you're right. I don't know. I sure as hell know that you're not right just because you say you are or because you say everyone else is too stupid to "get it."

[Hydro Globus]

Very well put. If this forum had a scoring system for posts, this would be 10.0 for me. :)

[Warren Dew]

"A player" is exactly what Belkar isn't right now. That's what Shojo just told him - to become a player.

Shojo tells him that, then asks what he is. If he had learned Shojo's lesson, he should have answered as the original poster says he should have.


Anyway, I have a question - what's with all the people who think the vision was a part of the curse?

Wishful thinking on the part of the Belkar fans, maybe? As you imply, there's little evidence that the vision was part of the curse - and that, indeed, is the error in the original poster's argument.

Personally, it looks to me like the whole dream sequence was just a way to get Belkar back into the battle - basically, a thinly disguised deus ex machina.

[Morty]

Personally, it looks to me like the whole dream sequence was just a way to get Belkar back into the battle - basically, a thinly disguised deus ex machina.

Everything can be a thinly disguised deus ex machina if you want to look at it that way.

[awibs]

If that's what you consider to be condescending, I'm amazed that you've made it this far on the Internet. If big words are your definition of condescension, I shouldn't bother continuing this, but what the hell. By the way, it isn't 'the entire thread.' It's about three of you. Grow up.

Sir, I enjoy talking to you, and I think your theory has merit, but I think I would like to let you know, for your reference, that you are coming across as rude to me as well. (Not in what you said to me directly, but what I observed you say to others.) I don't feel like picking a fight about it because, really, I can put up with rude, so whatever. But if you are actually curious to know how you come across to others and need a tally of exactly how many people agree about how you sound, feel free to add me as a fourth person.

If you would care for a detailed breakdown of what specific things I see as condescension and why (big words are not among them, incidentally,) feel free to pm me anytime.

If you don't care what people think and you'd rather I dropped it, consider it dropped, sir :>

And back to discussion about Belkar. I may have misunderstood your first post then. I don't see what you're saying he's wrong about. Could you elaborate, please?

[Quorothorn]

Personally, it looks to me like the whole dream sequence was just a way to get Belkar back into the battle - basically, a thinly disguised deus ex machina.

It's not a Deus Ex Machina if it makes sense and works in the story's world properly, which this does. Thunderously silly person, you are. :smallbiggrin:

[Corwin Weber]

Shojo tells him that, then asks what he is. If he had learned Shojo's lesson, he should have answered as the original poster says he should have.



Wishful thinking on the part of the Belkar fans, maybe? As you imply, there's little evidence that the vision was part of the curse - and that, indeed, is the error in the original poster's argument.

Personally, it looks to me like the whole dream sequence was just a way to get Belkar back into the battle - basically, a thinly disguised deus ex machina.

It could be a part of the curse. It could not be. We really can't say at this point. I can at least see the argument.... and I'm really not willing to say whether Shojo here is a vision from the curse, a figment of Belkar's imagination, or actually Shojo's ghost. Really any of them work, and there hasn't been any particular suggestion as to which of them, if any, is actually the case.

[Corwin Weber]

That right there? That's the rude part.

The condescending part? You quite literally said "all of you are failing to understand what apparently only I can understand, go read the comic again until you all manage to be as smart as I am." That is practically the definition of condescending.

When you try to say that you and you alone are right and _everybody else_ is wrong, you're obviously out of touch with reality. When you say something and everybody interprets it one way and then you try to claim that they're interpreting it wrong, it was your failure to communicate and not their failure to understand. When you make a claim as fact and the only evidence you can give is "you just have to interpret it the way I am which is the only right way," your fact is flawed and your logic is unsound.

You're not as bright as you seem to think you are. You are not smarter than everybody else. You are not a unique and special snowflake destined to be cherished and respected by the peabrain forum dwellers. You're just another jackass on the Internet with no functioning social or communication skills.

Seriously, you would make people cry if you tried to be condescending? This is the Internet. There is absolutely nothing you can do to hurt anyone's feelings here. When you act like a dipstick on the Internet -- which you are -- the grand sum of what you accomplish is the diminishing of your own credibility. Jackassery is the last resort of a desperate man with a deflating self ego, not a valid debate tactic. Repeatedly telling everyone that they're wrong and you're right over and over without actually offering any new insight is absolute proof that you don't actually have any insight in the first place; you just threw out a wildly flawed statement and are now attempting to defend your ego because admitting that you are not an infallible genius is something you can't bear to do.

Are you right? I don't know. Are you wrong? Still don't know. There's no absolute proof either way. I think your theory stinks of bad narration, but the Giant is not perfect, so maybe you're right. I don't know. I sure as hell know that you're not right just because you say you are or because you say everyone else is too stupid to "get it."

That right there? What you're complaining about? Is a direct result of several people complaining (without a damn bit of reference) that I'm somehow being 'condescending.'

Ask, and ye shall receive. I'm actually quite reasonable, but if you want condescending, you'll get it. If you don't, don't ask for it. It really is that simple. Apparently you and several others have a problem with.... something. I'm still even now not sure what. Some vague condescension that apparently isn't immediately obvious to anybody but you.

Yes, if you repeatedly refuse or fail to get it, (and demonstrating that you do not, in fact, get it by making arguments against a point that I was not in fact making in the first place) I'll repeat the point. I do have a fair amount of stamina in that regard.

[busterswd]

Sir, I enjoy talking to you, and I think your theory has merit, but I think I would like to let you know, for your reference, that you are coming across as rude to me as well. (Not in what you said to me directly, but what I observed you say to others.) I don't feel like picking a fight about it because, really, I can put up with rude, so whatever. But if you are actually curious to know how you come across to others and need a tally of exactly how many people agree about how you sound, feel free to add me as a fourth person.



Pretty much this. Your posts rubbed me the wrong way too. Emphatic pedantic dismissal generally carries of an air of condescension, but go figure; people don't like being talked down to.

The difference is I chose to put it aside to broach an actual discussion with you, one which you haven't responded to. I've been asserting that your answer to the question of who Belkar is is redundant with the question.

In short, the name of the game is society, but what IS the game? How do you play it?

[Corwin Weber]

Sir, I enjoy talking to you, and I think your theory has merit, but I think I would like to let you know, for your reference, that you are coming across as rude to me as well. (Not in what you said to me directly, but what I observed you say to others.) I don't feel like picking a fight about it because, really, I can put up with rude, so whatever. But if you are actually curious to know how you come across to others and need a tally of exactly how many people agree about how you sound, feel free to add me as a fourth person.

If you would care for a detailed breakdown of what specific things I see as condescension and why (big words are not among them, incidentally,) feel free to pm me anytime.

If you don't care what people think and you'd rather I dropped it, consider it dropped, sir :>

And back to discussion about Belkar. I may have misunderstood your first post then. I don't see what you're saying he's wrong about. Could you elaborate, please?

I don't particularly feel like picking a fight myself.... I have other venues for that. This isn't what I consider to be one of them. (Time and a place for everything.) Apparently other people do consider this to be a venue for that. Why, I'm not entirely sure.

Now.... what he's wrong about is what he really is. The problem up to this point is that he's the SSGOW. While that's all well and good for the comic.... it's not so great for his own longterm survival. What's happening here is that Shojo is trying to convince him to become a player the way he is. Personally I suspect that Belkar isn't the first chaotic person that Shojo has tried to teach this way.... hence the vision and password. It looks like Shojo has a longrunning tradition of reforming badly excecuted chaotic people/characters into well executed ones.... making them players. Sitting at the metaphorical table playing the metaphorical game. He's been trying to convince Belkar that this is the way to do things... to convince him that he needs to rein in his chaotic actions and not act like he's rejecting social mores and attitudes, but what's happening is that Belkar is still the 'Sexy Shoeless God of War...'

He hasn't learned. Shojo's message didn't stick. He's still the raging sociopath and he hasn't learned to be sneaky about it.

[Corwin Weber]

Pretty much this. Your posts rubbed me the wrong way too. Emphatic pedantic dismissal generally carries of an air of condescension, but go figure; people don't like being talked down to.

The difference is I chose to put it aside to broach an actual discussion with you, one which you haven't responded to. I've been asserting that your answer to the question of who Belkar is is redundant with the question.

In short, the name of the game is society, but what IS the game? How do you play it?

Now that's the question, isn't it?

I don't have a full answer. Shojo would. I know at least part of it. Belkar has to learn some impulse control. He has to convince the party (and others that he's around) that he's not just going to off someone purely because they annoy him. They keep him around because he's a killer, but they need to think they can keep him under control. (Hell, look at Roy's justification of keeping him around.) If he can't do this, people around him are likely to decide that if he can't play the game of society, he's more trouble than he's worth. The solution here would be for them to kill him if they can.... and hope he can't score a rez.

[Kaihaku]

If I was being condescending, half the people on this thread would be in tears. I'm actually very good at it.

In my experience, when a equal acts condescendingly it doesn't make people break out in tears, consider that online we are basically all equal, instead it usually just makes people think the person in question is a stuck-up jerk.

[Corwin Weber]

In my experience, when a equal acts condescendingly it doesn't make people break out in tears, consider that online we are basically all equal, instead it usually just makes people think the person in question is a stuck-up jerk.

Or originally comes from policing forums where death threats or worse are not entirely unknown.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Now.... what he's wrong about is what he really is. The problem up to this point is that he's the SSGOW. While that's all well and good for the comic.... it's not so great for his own longterm survival. What's happening here is that Shojo is trying to convince him to become a player the way he is. Personally I suspect that Belkar isn't the first chaotic person that Shojo has tried to teach this way.... hence the vision and password. It looks like Shojo has a longrunning tradition of reforming badly excecuted chaotic people/characters into well executed ones.... making them players. Sitting at the metaphorical table playing the metaphorical game. He's been trying to convince Belkar that this is the way to do things... to convince him that he needs to rein in his chaotic actions and not act like he's rejecting social mores and attitudes, but what's happening is that Belkar is still the 'Sexy Shoeless God of War...'

He hasn't learned. Shojo's message didn't stick. He's still the raging sociopath and he hasn't learned to be sneaky about it.

You've completely missed the point of Shojo's speech. Shojo said himself that he doesn't have to play by everyone else's rules, he just has to cheat. Thus he does not have to actually change in any way, he just has to pretend to change. Shojo isn't asking him what he is because he wants him to have actually changed, he wants him to say what he is so that he can "play" as something else. The entire point of Shojo's "lesson" was to show Belkar how to be able to continue to be a Sexy Shoeless God of War while making it look like he was following the rules, thus denying any REAL character development. It was not for him to actually cease to be a Sexy Shoeless God of War, because that would mean he actually WAS following everyone else's stupid rules. For clarity, I will repeat this in simpler terms. He doesn't need to stop being or thinking about himself as a SSGoW, because that's what he is, and the point of Shojo's lesson was to show him how to continue being one without continuing to get into trouble.

[Corwin Weber]

You've completely missed the point of Shojo's speech. Shojo said himself that he doesn't have to play by everyone else's rules, he just has to cheat. Thus he does not have to actually change in any way, he just has to pretend to change. Shojo isn't asking him what he is because he wants him to have actually changed, he wants him to say what he is so that he can "play" as something else. The entire point of Shojo's "lesson" was to show Belkar how to be able to continue to be a Sexy Shoeless God of War while making it look like he was following the rules, thus denying any REAL character development. It was not for him to actually cease to be a Sexy Shoeless God of War, because that would mean he actually WAS following everyone else's stupid rules. For clarity, I will repeat this in simpler terms. He doesn't need to stop being or thinking about himself as a SSGoW, because that's what he is, and the point of Shojo's lesson was to show him how to continue being one without continuing to get into trouble.

He does have to play by them up to a point. He has to accept the rules as a base in order to use them to his advantage, or break them when he can get away with doing so. Completely rejecting and ignoring them is the problem.

You have to accept the rules of the game before you can play, and if you don't actually play, you can't cheat.

[hungryLIKEALION]

He does have to play by them up to a point. He has to accept the rules as a base in order to use them to his advantage, or break them when he can get away with doing so. Completely rejecting and ignoring them is the problem.

You have to accept the rules of the game before you can play, and if you don't actually play, you can't cheat.

He has to use the rules, yes. Does he have to fundamentally change who he is from a SSGoW to a player? Most definitely not.

[Scarab83]

He does have to play by them up to a point. He has to accept the rules as a base in order to use them to his advantage, or break them when he can get away with doing so. Completely rejecting and ignoring them is the problem.

You have to accept the rules of the game before you can play, and if you don't actually play, you can't cheat.

The definition of cheating is playing WITHOUT accepting the rules of the game. It's a circular trap of logic you've created.

[Corwin Weber]

He has to use the rules, yes. Does he have to fundamentally change who he is from a SSGoW to a player? Most definitely not.

He has to change who he is to the point where the SSGoW isn't all that he is, because the SSGoW is something that most people who know him have already determined is more of a threat than a benefit. He has to rein in those tendencies to the point where people think they can control him. (Whether they actually can or not doesn't matter. Perception is key here.)

[Corwin Weber]

The definition of cheating is playing WITHOUT accepting the rules of the game. It's a circular trap of logic you've created.

No, cheating is breaking the rules, not disregarding them altogether. You have to accept the rules of the game to play the game. Rather than just openly (and belligerently) ignoring the rules, he has to at least seem to follow them when anybody's looking.

When nobody's looking? All bets are off. But that's something he can get away with. Hell, Shojo feigned senility to get people to not look too closely at him. This gave him a lot of latitude when it came to breaking the rules.

I guess another way to express the lesson would be that Belkar needs to learn to care that people are looking.

[Reverent-One]

I guess another way to express the lesson would be that Belkar needs to learn to care that people are looking.

Which we have yet to see if Belkar has learned that or not, and it has nothing to do with the question Shojo asked him.

[Shatteredtower]

Shojo put the mark on Belkar as a condition for postponing his trial back when the only thing he knew about him was that he'd killed a guard and that he was a member of a team that had stood up for him. He had only reasons, based on what we've seen, to view him as already being a player. It's all right there in #285. Nothing after that is shown to change that perspective.

And again, player is only another label, and a less distinctive one than ranger at that.

[Quorothorn]

I don't particularly feel like picking a fight myself.... I have other venues for that. This isn't what I consider to be one of them. (Time and a place for everything.) Apparently other people do consider this to be a venue for that. Why, I'm not entirely sure.

Now.... what he's wrong about is what he really is. The problem up to this point is that he's the SSGOW. While that's all well and good for the comic.... it's not so great for his own longterm survival. What's happening here is that Shojo is trying to convince him to become a player the way he is. Personally I suspect that Belkar isn't the first chaotic person that Shojo has tried to teach this way.... hence the vision and password. It looks like Shojo has a longrunning tradition of reforming badly excecuted chaotic people/characters into well executed ones.... making them players. Sitting at the metaphorical table playing the metaphorical game. He's been trying to convince Belkar that this is the way to do things... to convince him that he needs to rein in his chaotic actions and not act like he's rejecting social mores and attitudes, but what's happening is that Belkar is still the 'Sexy Shoeless God of War...'

He hasn't learned. Shojo's message didn't stick. He's still the raging sociopath and he hasn't learned to be sneaky about it.

But Belkar IS well-executed...ok, he's awesomely-executed, which isn't quite the same thing, I'll admit.

[Chaz Natlo]

Just so I understand, The argument presented is that Shojo is trying to tell Belkar that he should be a player in this game we call Life society, correct? I think this is correct. However, that is not the answer to his request. As others have pointed out Shojo's question was regarding who he is, given the understanding that, when he determines that, he can understand who he needs to (pretend to) be in order to be a player. He isn't a player till he knows what he is. Hence the question. ((Admittedly, He could still be wrong, but I don't think that answer is "A player".))

[Corwin Weber]

Just so I understand, The argument presented is that Shojo is trying to tell Belkar that he should be a player in this game we call Life society, correct? I think this is correct. However, that is not the answer to his request. As others have pointed out Shojo's question was regarding who he is, given the understanding that, when he determines that, he can understand who he needs to (pretend to) be in order to be a player. He isn't a player till he knows what he is. Hence the question. ((Admittedly, He could still be wrong, but I don't think that answer is "A player".))

Yes, that is the argument.

When it comes down to it.... the SSGoW is just as much a label as anything else is.... it's just a label for an uncontrollable killing machine. That's not exactly the label he wants, or at least that's Shojo's argument.

Anything Belkar picks will be a label. Shojo's message is that he needs to pick a label that isn't going to get him swatted in the long run. (Remember, neither Shojo nor Belkar knows about the prophecy..... so the fact that no label will save Belkar in the long run doesn't really matter here.)

[WarriorTribble]

Well, if we go by how Babylon 5 takes that question. There really isn't a right answer. It's more of a question designed to encourage introspection.

[Corwin Weber]

Well, if we go by how Babylon 5 takes that question. There really isn't a right answer. It's more of a question designed to encourage introspection.

...which in the current discussion would put Belkar firmly in the 'badly screwed' category. :)

[awibs]

He hasn't learned. Shojo's message didn't stick. He's still the raging sociopath and he hasn't learned to be sneaky about it.

I see where you're going. I would venture to argue that it hasn't necessarily been established yet that he hasn't learned to sneak. Admitting who you are once in order to get a good grip on / make a good plan for what you have to do doesn't necessarily mean you are going to keep shouting it in the future. Also, it's not like Belkar has to stop being an effective killer to be liked/effective/whatever. All high-level pcs are by nature effective killers, and plenty are likable. He could very well still be a "sexy shoeless god of war," kill things left and right, and just package it better... I wouldn't say Haley's killing a bazillion hobgoblins spree or Roy's Great Cleave the whole encounter dealie made either of them less likable.

[Alair]

Yes, that is the argument.

When it comes down to it.... the SSGoW is just as much a label as anything else is.... it's just a label for an uncontrollable killing machine. That's not exactly the label he wants, or at least that's Shojo's argument.

Anything Belkar picks will be a label. Shojo's message is that he needs to pick a label that isn't going to get him swatted in the long run. (Remember, neither Shojo nor Belkar knows about the prophecy..... so the fact that no label will save Belkar in the long run doesn't really matter here.)

The problem's not "label", the problem is what makes Belkar who he is. Not a "halfling" or "ranger/barbarian", or any other various conjoining of class/level/statistics/etc.

"If you die, will another halfling ranger just happen to show up and take your place?" (If the answer was supposed to be "A player" then that would presumably be a "yes".)

There has to be something about Belkar that makes him fundamentally and uniquely Belkar. There has to be a person underneath in order for him to be able to use a mask.

[elliott20]

I'm pretty sure that character mask or not, Belkar is totally screwed either way. and chances are, he'll go out in a blaze of glory that makes us all marvel in his final act.

[Linkgenesis]

I see where you're going. I would venture to argue that it hasn't necessarily been established yet that he hasn't learned to sneak.

I have to agree. We know nothing of his next set of actions that will clearly define whether or not he has managed to evolve.

I wanted to point out the deep and creepy psychological levels of Belkar having once played Lord Shojo to snap someone else out of a charm and now he himself is being roused from an almost self-imposed muddling of identity by what might be himself again playing Lord Shojo.

"Evolve or Die" seems to be Shojo's most pervasive bit of wisdom. Look what happened to Miko, another who failed to embrace it.

This may be going out on a bit of a limb, but isn't the very nature of a prophecy fumbled by someone knowing about it? Though I suppose that his prophecy is more than vague enough to allow for wiggle room in any direction. But, that seems to be the main function of the memory charm that allows only the memory of the answer to the question particular to that person to persist. But, Roy, having bypassed the charm completely, knows everything discussed during his presence. Someone asserted that the Oracle should be able to prevent his own painful death if prophecies could be circumvented, and he does (in a roundabout way), when the two reptilian spellcasters appear and ressurect the little orange schmuck. Theoretically he could avoid these incidents altogether, what with being able to radically forecast, and therefore change, the future. This prints pictures about the Oracle and Belkar if nobody else.

Being my first post, I'd like to gush a bit and curse the name of Rich Burlew for creating such a rich story that it constantly draws me in and leads me to swearing when there hasn't been an update. Few comics manage to do this anymore and they're dropping like flies.

[Helgraf]

Or originally comes from policing forums where death threats or worse are not entirely unknown.

Which still doesn't justify it.

[FantomFang]

http://xkcd.com/386/

It had to be done.

[pearl jam]

The problem's not "label", the problem is what makes Belkar who he is. Not a "halfling" or "ranger/barbarian", or any other various conjoining of class/level/statistics/etc.

"If you die, will another halfling ranger just happen to show up and take your place?" (If the answer was supposed to be "A player" then that would presumably be a "yes".)

There has to be something about Belkar that makes him fundamentally and uniquely Belkar. There has to be a person underneath in order for him to be able to use a mask.

I think this assessment is correct.

[Kaihaku]

Which still doesn't justify it.

Or stand as really all that unusual.

Also, that's a great XKCD.

[TengYt]

Surely we can't make a judgement on how right or wrong Belkar is yet? We need to see his actions in future strips first. If he acts as bloodthirsty as ever, and gets killed because of it, then yes he is wrong. But who knows? Maybe he's right. Maybe he can still be a Sexy Shoeless God of War, and yet still pretend to "play" the game. Imo, it's too early to call it one way or another.

[Nimrod's Son]

Honestly I have no idea where all this 'high horse' and 'condescending' crap comes from.
Just a hunch, but I think that people are getting that impression because you keep using phrases like this one:

if that's what gets you through the day, so be it.
You're not just coming off as condescending, but also massively arrogant - and not even with the saving grace of being accurate. It's not at all hard to pick holes in your theory; more or less every single other poster here has already done so... but it's even easier to just sit back and wait for time to prove you wrong. Enjoy your smugness while it lasts, though.

[Kaihaku]

Um...

This is a comic is built around different kinds of player characters. See Origin of PCs. Some people write 50 pages of background, some write three sentences.

I've played with Belker-types before, I took the comic as saying that the slaughter happy player who enjoys just being badass needs to roleplay character development as well. It's not enough to just do whatever you think is badass at the time all the time, eventually the other players are going to get annoyed and want you out if you never take anything seriously and keep on screwing them over. So, in order to keep in you have to "play the game" or at least pretend to. I think it has much to do with Belker as a PC archetype and not so much to do with Belker as a character. Though, that's just my interpretation.

[Corwin Weber]

I see where you're going. I would venture to argue that it hasn't necessarily been established yet that he hasn't learned to sneak. Admitting who you are once in order to get a good grip on / make a good plan for what you have to do doesn't necessarily mean you are going to keep shouting it in the future. Also, it's not like Belkar has to stop being an effective killer to be liked/effective/whatever. All high-level pcs are by nature effective killers, and plenty are likable. He could very well still be a "sexy shoeless god of war," kill things left and right, and just package it better... I wouldn't say Haley's killing a bazillion hobgoblins spree or Roy's Great Cleave the whole encounter dealie made either of them less likable.

It isn't a question of likeable or not likeable. It's a question of control. Roy and Haley both know that neither of them is going to kill the other for xp, or start randomly killing plot-central NPC's out of annoyance. B has already done so.

B is rapidly approaching chemical/bioweapons status. When a weapon is as dangerous to the user as it is to the target.... most people get rid of it.

[Corwin Weber]

Which still doesn't justify it.

Odd... I don't recall being obligated to justify myself to you.

The irony of someone simultaneously complaining about 'condescension' and/or 'arrogance' and then expecting such 'justification' isn't lost, however.

[Corwin Weber]

Just a hunch, but I think that people are getting that impression because you keep using phrases like this one:

You're not just coming off as condescending, but also massively arrogant - and not even with the saving grace of being accurate. It's not at all hard to pick holes in your theory; more or less every single other poster here has already done so... but it's even easier to just sit back and wait for time to prove you wrong. Enjoy your smugness while it lasts, though.

Just a suggestion, but you might try picking an example that isn't from halfway through the thread in response to unfounded complaints.

Nice try, tho. A for effort.

[GKBeetle]

Corwin Weber:
Here's where you are wrong.
Shojo said this, "It's a relatively simple question. How can you succeed at pretending to be something else without knowing exactly what you are in the first place. So what are you Belkar?"
Shojo is saying that he needs to know what he actually is before he can pretend to be something else. Belkar is a "Sexy Shoeless God of War". He is going to pretend to not be a "Sexy Shoeless God of War".
Does that make sense? I apologize in advance for being condescending, but it just doesn't seem like you are understanding anybody else who's trying to say the same thing. Really, though, Shojo's quote above proves what he is asking.
I guess you could say that he wants him to become a player. A player would be Belkar, as a "Sexy Shoeless God of War", pretending to be something else. But Shojo doesn't ask him what he is going to become, he asks him what he is. Belkar won't become a player until he actually starts pretending, which he hadn't started doing while he was laying there dreaming.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Right from the beginning of your opening post you sounded arrogant because you stated your opinion as fact. In your second post in the thread, you said "Read the Shojo vision strips again. You're makin exactly the same mistake Belkar did." That makes you sound like an arrogant prick because the moment someone disagreed with you, you just say they're wrong and that they obviously didn't read the strip correctly or else they would have came to the conclusion you did. Does that sound condescending? Yes, yes it does.

But that's not enough. On page two, you go on to make this post.
Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait.

Pay special attention to the part where they're sitting around a table in tshirts and surrounded by D&D material and Shojo specifically says 'Not that kind of player.'

Have you all seen that part?

Now.

Notice that Shojo then goes on to tell Belkar exactly what kind of player he needs to be.

Read it. Understand it. Before you comment. Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept, the fact that I myself do understand what he said, or both.

Did you look at that? Maybe you should read over it again before we move on. I don't wanna overload your low INT score. It's okay, I'll wait.

Did you read it now? Well, just to be safe, read it again. Really absorb it, think about before you read further. Take it nice and slow, don't get confused.

We good? Awesome. Now I will break it down for you so that you can understand just what you said in this post.


Ok, everybody go back and read that comic again. I'll wait. You just told the entire thread of people who disagree with you that they didn't read the strip well enough. The amount of assumptions you make here is quite frankly insulting, and you cannot feasibly deny the smugness you present here.


Pay special attention to the part where they're sitting around a table in tshirts and surrounded by D&D material and Shojo specifically says 'Not that kind of player.'You insinuate that those reading the thread did not pay attention to this part or digest the information contained within, a very large and insulting assumption on your part. I mean seriously, it's not like they could have just came to a different conclusion from yours, could it? Of course not, that would imply the fraction of a chance you could be wrong.


Have you all seen that part?

Now.Pure condescension.

In the bold part you present your argument. So for one line in this entire post, you are free of condescension.


Read it. Understand it. Before you comment.Saying that everyone else in the thread must not have read or understood the part before posting. Once again, very insulting.


Good godless half of you people don't seem to understand either this concept,Asserting that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't understand the strip, ignoring even the slightest chance you could be wrong. Quite insulting.


the fact that I myself do understand what he said,Ah, asserting your own superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. I take it CHA was your dump stat?


or both.I don't think I need to say anything more here.

You'll notice that past this post is where the majority of the complaints about your manner came up, and rightfully so.

As for your argument, it's really getting tiring. You're essentially saying "There's no evidence that Belkar absorbed the lesson yet, so Belkar must not have understood Shojo." Unfortunately for you, that's completely unfounded and has no support in the comic. When the future comics come out, we will continue to see no support for your theory, because you are wrong. Now get out of the playground, the big kids have come to play.

[awibs]

It isn't a question of likeable or not likeable. It's a question of control. Roy and Haley both know that neither of them is going to kill the other for xp, or start randomly killing plot-central NPC's out of annoyance. B has already done so.

B is rapidly approaching chemical/bioweapons status. When a weapon is as dangerous to the user as it is to the target.... most people get rid of it.

"Likeable," I feel, is the part that convinces other people not to get rid of you. That's what I'm trying to use as another word for "making others think you're playing by their rules."

What I feel is irrelevant (to the dream sequence) is the fact that B has already done this or that, since he's not expected to undo his past, just resolve to improve in the future.

[Mariel Dragon]

While sexy shoeless god of war can be pretty much a label as anything else, I just want to point out the following thing:
How many chaotic evil people are in the OOTSverse?
How many rangers?
How many halflings?
Sure a ton of them, even if they have more than one of this characteristic.
Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger could apply to anyone, especially if you are actively playing D&D, you might have come across some of them.
Now, how many sexy shoeless gods of war are there?
When I hear this line, I immediatly think of Belkar and noone else.
This is why SSGoW, while possible being a label, describes Belkar in an unique way, which means, it is the answer Shojo wanted to hear.
And if you disagree, let me try to convince you by asking you the following Question, or rather, giving you the following task:
Describe yourself without using labels. Pretty hard, isn't it?

[Corwin Weber]

Right from the beginning of your opening post you sounded arrogant because you stated your opinion as fact. In your second post in the thread, you said "Read the Shojo vision strips again. You're makin exactly the same mistake. Belkar did." That makes you sound like an arrogant prick because the moment someone disagreed with you, you just say they're wrong and that they obviously didn't read the strip correctly or else they would have came to the conclusion you did. Does that sound condescending? Yes, yes it does.

But that's not enough. On page two, you go on to make this post.

Did you look at that? Maybe you should read over it again before we move on. I don't wanna overload your low INT score. It's okay, I'll wait.

Did you read it now? Well, just to be safe, read it again. Really absorb it, think about before you read further. Take it nice and slow, don't get confused.

We good? Awesome. Now I will break it down for you so that you can understand just what you said in this post.

You just told the entire thread of people who disagree with you that they didn't read the strip well enough. The amount of assumptions you make here is quite frankly insulting, and you cannot feasibly deny the smugness you present here.

You insinuate that those reading the thread did not pay attention to this part or digest the information contained within, a very large and insulting assumption on your part. I mean seriously, it's not like they could have just came to a different conclusion from yours, could it? Of course not, that would imply the fraction of a chance you could be wrong.

Pure condescension.

In the bold part you present your argument. So for one line in this entire post, you are free of condescension.

Saying that everyone else in the thread must not have read or understood the part before posting. Once again, very insulting.

Asserting that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't understand the strip, ignoring even the slightest chance you could be wrong. Quite insulting.

Ah, asserting your own superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. I take it CHA was your dump stat?

I don't think I need to say anything more here.

You'll notice that past this post is where the majority of the complaints about your manner came up, and rightfully so.

As for your argument, it's really getting tiring. You're essentially saying "There's no evidence that Belkar absorbed the lesson yet, so Belkar must not have understood Shojo." Unfortunately for you, that's completely unfounded and has no support in the comic. When the future comics come out, we will continue to see no support for your theory, because you are wrong. Now get out of the playground, the big kids have come to play.

And this distills down to: 'I didn't like that you made a firm statement in your first post, and I've spent the rest of it looking for things to get upset about.'

Again, if that's what it takes to get you through the day, fine.

[hamishspence]

Firm statements expressed as an opinion is one thing, expressed as facts, another.

[Corwin Weber]

"Likeable," I feel, is the part that convinces other people not to get rid of you. That's what I'm trying to use as another word for "making others think you're playing by their rules."

What I feel is irrelevant (to the dream sequence) is the fact that B has already done this or that, since he's not expected to undo his past, just resolve to improve in the future.


Not disagreeing with that, where I'm disagreeing is that vocally falling back into his previous role is resolving to improve in the future.

We're agreeing with regards to what he needs to do, just disagreeing as to whether or not he's actually done it.

[Corwin Weber]

While sexy shoeless god of war can be pretty much a label as anything else, I just want to point out the following thing:
How many chaotic evil people are in the OOTSverse?
How many rangers?
How many halflings?
Sure a ton of them, even if they have more than one of this characteristic.
Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger could apply to anyone, especially if you are actively playing D&D, you might have come across some of them.
Now, how many sexy shoeless gods of war are there?
When I hear this line, I immediatly think of Belkar and noone else.
This is why SSGoW, while possible being a label, describes Belkar in an unique way, which means, it is the answer Shojo wanted to hear.
And if you disagree, let me try to convince you by asking you the following Question, or rather, giving you the following task:
Describe yourself without using labels. Pretty hard, isn't it?

It's virtually impossible. Language is a series of labels.

[hungryLIKEALION]

And this distills down to: 'I didn't like that you made a firm statement in your first post, and I've spent the rest of it looking for things to get upset about.'

Again, if that's what it takes to get you through the day, fine.

I love it when trolls stop trying to argue once they're proven wrong and just retreat back to name calling. It's awfully cute. :3

[hamishspence]

Not name calling- implied name calling. And recommend keep to topic- mods come down on people who use certain words, whether those words are justified or not.

I think Belkar has taken on board "shojo's" message, even if "shojo" is probably a hallucination.

[Mariel Dragon]

It's virtually impossible. Language is a series of labels.

And this is what I mean

[GKBeetle]

Corwin Weber:
Did you just skip over my arguments because you just missed them, or was it because you had no way to refute my argument? Just curious. I don't really expect you to reply to my comments on this thread.

[Querzis]

Corwin Weber:
Did you just skip over my arguments because you just missed them, or was it because you had no way to refute my argument? Just curious. I don't really expect you to reply to my comments on this thread.

He skipped over everyone who said that. Dunno if its because he just dont wanna admit hes wrong no matter what or if hes a troll. At that point, I'm leaning toward the troll option, regardless of if its intentional or not. Honestly I'm surprised the mods didnt close down that thread and I'm even more surprised they didnt gave him an infractions. Come on, I saw people being banned for less then that.

[Corwin Weber]

I love it when trolls stop trying to argue once they're proven wrong and just retreat back to name calling. It's awfully cute. :3


Odd... I'm not seeing any name calling either.

You seem to have a habit of seeing things that justify your preconception, yet aren't actually there.

[Corwin Weber]

Corwin Weber:
Did you just skip over my arguments because you just missed them, or was it because you had no way to refute my argument? Just curious. I don't really expect you to reply to my comments on this thread.


I 'skipped over' it because I'm dealing with the peanut gallery here as well as trying to carry on actual conversations.

The problem with that point is that neither Shojo nor Belkar needs to ask the question if that's the answer. B already knows, and Shojo has clearly figured it out. That being the answer makes the entire segment pretty much meaningless.

[Corwin Weber]

He skipped over everyone who said that. Dunno if its because he just dont wanna admit hes wrong no matter what or if hes a troll. At that point, I'm leaning toward the troll option, regardless of if its intentional or not. Honestly I'm surprised the mods didnt close down that thread and I'm even more surprised they didnt gave him an infractions. Come on, I saw people being banned for less then that.


The ability to make that distinction would be why they're mods, and you aren't.

[Corwin Weber]

And this is what I mean

I know it is. I'm agreeing with you here.

[Kish]

Not disagreeing with that, where I'm disagreeing is that vocally falling back into his previous role is resolving to improve in the future.

We're agreeing with regards to what he needs to do, just disagreeing as to whether or not he's actually done it.
I think he probably has simply because if he hasn't, his life expectancy would likely be measured in days at most, and I think it will be a little--just a little--longer than that.

We'll know for certain within a few strips.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked for review good. Please do not call others names - than includes "troll". If you believe a post is violating the Forum Rules, please report the offending post and leave it be. We'll look into it.