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MustacheFart
2008-11-21, 10:56 PM
Hey all, I'm sure there is probably a topic like this somewhere on the forums but I can't find any information on it here to save my life. So, sorry if this is a time old question.

Which has a higher possible maximum damage? Which has a higher average damage?

I mean obviously with two-weapon fighting you want as many attacks in a full attack action as possible but at any point does the total damage from said attacks surpass that of the total damage from attacks with a two-hander in a full attack action?

I've always been told by friends and people I've played with, that two-handers are really the way to go if you want maximum melee damage. Supposedly, the numbers, even with tons of attacks with two weapons, don't add up to anywhere close to the numbers you see with a two-hander.

So, is there anyway for one style to clearly dominate the other in terms of pure damage?

Kizara
2008-11-21, 11:02 PM
2H > 2WF > S&B > 1H.


People will follow with maths and explanitations later. :)

Thurbane
2008-11-21, 11:02 PM
I won't crunch the numbers for you (I'm sure someone will do a much better job than I can), but suffice to say in damage output, 2 handed fighting craps all over 2 weapon fighting, unless you figure in sneak attacks or such...

Keld Denar
2008-11-21, 11:06 PM
It really depends on the build. 2handed style does hold higher records than TWF in most cases because of the obscene number of multipliers you can get on PA and charging. Typical Ubercharger builds are running into things like 12x+ damage multipliers by the time everything is mathed out.

I've seen some very rare Shadowpouncing builds that can get some obscene damage with Burning Blade by making hundreds of full attacks in a single round, but those are pretty complicated and kind of wonky. Also rather illegal given the most recent interpretation of Divine Impetus by the sage. Another decent damage build I've seen was a Bardblade with really high Dragonfire Inspiration boosting Raging Mongoose and making like, 12 attacks in a round each with +10d6 sonic damage or so. Still more builds would involve a Jack B Quick style with Double Hit and Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit so when someone attacks you, you get 4 hits back, plus something to boost base damage. Was kind of cool. Alternately use Stormguard Warrior for bonus damage on a build like that.

Generally though, its easier to get higher numbers as a fighter with 2hand weapon fighting via PA, and easier to get higher numbers as a rogue+ with TWF.

The really sick builds do more than just TWF though. They do TWF and then stack on claw claw bite tenticle tenticle pseudopod pseudopod symbot into the mix. Cource, you look like a bloody freak, but stuff dies fast enough that you don't have to listen to the people who tease you for very long.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-21, 11:13 PM
Which has a higher possible maximum damage? Which has a higher average damage?
It is an old question, but the answer is mostly simple.
When you've got a lot of decent effects that activate on a per-hit basis (such as the Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Vorpal (only on a nat-20, but worth a mention), or Wounding weapon properties; Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish (if you can find a way to move ten+ feet and still full attack) class abilities, and so on), then two-weapon fighting works better. If you're reliant on things like Power Attack and a high Strength bonus, then two-handed weapon fighting works better. That is, the Rogue gets two Shortswords; the Fighter takes one Greatsword.

There's some caveats to that - if you can do both (Greatsword + Armor Spikes, or Greatsword + Animated Tower Shield of Bashing (with Improved Shield Bash), or some such), then you're doing well, too.

MustacheFart
2008-11-21, 11:47 PM
It really depends on the build. Typical Ubercharger builds are running into things like 12x+ damage multipliers by the time everything is mathed out.

Could you point me to one of these Ubercharger builds. Unless of course you are referring to mounted lance chargers, in that case then no thanks, I've played em, and seen quite a few of em. But, I'd be really interested in seeing some ground uber-charger builds (is it possible?).


Also with PA, I always forget to use it (which got me a lot of reticule), but when I do remember I'm usually afraid I'll use it for too much as I'm never sure how much to use it for, fearing I'll completely miss the bad guy and waste my attack. At what level should you start using it equal to your highest BAB?

Jasdoif
2008-11-21, 11:54 PM
Could you point me to one of these Ubercharger builds. Unless of course you are referring to mounted lance chargers, in that case then no thanks, I've played em, and seen quite a few of em. But, I'd be really interested in seeing some ground uber-charger builds (is it possible?).


Also with PA, in the past, I was always afraid to use it too much (which got me a lot of reticule) as I was never sure how much to use it for, fearing I'd completely miss the bad guy and waste my attack. At what level should you start using it equal to your highest BAB?I'm sure someone else can provide you with full builds, I can't.

I can, however, tell you that a very useful feat for a charger build is Shock Trooper, from Complete Warrior. Specifically the heedless charge option it gives you: It lets you move some or all of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your AC when you're charging. Then you add in other feats that multiply your charge or power attack damage.

The basic gist is that you power attack for your full BAB and put all the penalty into your AC to keep your attack bonus; the idea being that anything capable of surviving the resulting onslaught of damage would have enough of an attack bonus to reliably hit your normal AC anyway, so you aren't really losing anything.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-22, 12:01 AM
I'm sure someone else can provide you with full builds, I can't.

I can, however, tell you that a very useful feat for a charger build is Shock Trooper, from Complete Warrior. Specifically the heedless charge option it gives you: It lets you move some or all of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your AC when you're charging. Then you add in other feats that multiply your charge or power attack damage.

The basic gist is that you power attack for your full BAB and put all the penalty into your AC to keep your attack bonus; the idea being that anything capable of surviving the resulting onslaught of damage would have enough of an attack bonus to reliably hit your normal AC anyway, so you aren't really losing anything.
The full Ubercharger takes that, combines it with with Leap Attack (a little feat that increases the multiplier on Power Attack with a reasonably simple Jump check), a dip in Lion Totem Barbarian (Barbarian variant that trades Fast Movement for Pounce), and Frenzied Berserker levels (which increase the multiplier on Power Attack, along with some nifties and some nasties).

Tequila Sunrise
2008-11-22, 12:15 AM
Also with PA, I always forget to use it (which got me a lot of reticule), but when I do remember I'm usually afraid I'll use it for too much as I'm never sure how much to use it for, fearing I'll completely miss the bad guy and waste my attack. At what level should you start using it equal to your highest BAB?
I've always had personal problems with power attack too. Personally I think power attack is a lot more circumstantially useful than a lot of board-goers imply. Consider that a character with good BAB will get about +1.5 total attack bonuses per level. Monsters on average get about +1 AC per CR. There are some monsters, like oozes, that have the same AC at CR 20 than at CR 1, so power attack is a no-brainer. But then there are monsters like dragons that get about +1.5 AC per CR, so power attack isn't very useful especially if you're full attacking. Anyway my rule of thumb is to not even bother with power attack unless I can't full attack anyway, or I'm fighting something with DR that I can't overcome, or I'm fighting an ooze.

2HF trumps 2WF unless you're a rogue or have access to some other source of serious bonus damage that applies to both weapons. You don't need to do a ton of math to see this, just some quick comparisons:

--2HFs get no attack penalty. 2WFs get -2 to all attacks, which is 10% less damage per attack.
Consider all your basic sources of damage: base weapon dice, enhancements, Strength bonus and power attack.
--Assuming a great sword vs. a long sword + short sword, the 2WF wins but only by 1 measly point.
--Being able to add two sets of item enhancements to your attack routine sounds great, until you consider the exorbitant cost of keeping two weapons fully enchanted. You can do that, but your access to other items will seriously suffer.
--Both 2HF and 2WF add x1.5 their Str bonus to total damage, which makes them seem equivalent until you consider the high Dex that the 2WF has to have to buy the 2WF feats, making it unlike that he will be able to match the 2HF.
--A 2HF gets 2 extra damage per power attack penalty, while a 2WF only gets 1 extra damage per penalty for one weapon while still taking the power attack penalty on both weapons.
--All of the above assumes that you're making a full attack. If you only have a standard action to attack with, the few advantages that a 2WF has are flushed down the drain.

Hope that helps,
TS

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 12:31 AM
Head over to the CharOp forums and do a search for Ubercharger. I think the general build includes PA, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Battlejump, Headless Charge, Supreme PA from Frenzied Berzerker, a Valorous Weapon, and some other shananagans. Its pretty easy to figure out. 1 level of Lion Totem Barb for pounce and you liquidate anything in front of you. Will probably get you dominated by a powerful NPC and turned on your own party, but that's a whole nother story.

PAing depends largely on party buffs. If you regularly adventure with a Bard who throws up a tweaked out Inspire Courage, you can start early. If your cleric buffs with Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, then you can pretty much full PA all the time without fear of missing. Just focus on getting a lot of gear and feats that give you bonuses to attack, or take Shocktrooper so you can convert penalty to hit to penalty to AC when charging. You shouldn't need ST if you have a fairly competant party and are sufficiently buffed.

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-22, 12:43 AM
Usually two-handed fighting is better, but if you have a different source of damage on your attacks TWF can become champion - like if the bard does Dragonfire Inspiration for +13d6 fire damage per attack or whatever. Shadow blade is probably very useful for TWF as well... but whatever the extra source of damage is, it has to be quite effective in order to conquer the benefits of a pumped-up power attack.

And let's not forget other tricks of TWF, I'm thinking the Weapon Styles.

Cheesegear
2008-11-22, 01:04 AM
The problem I find with those massive damage output builds - and I think the Ubercharger is in the multiple hundreds (some get into the thousands) of damage. Is that a lot of them tend to lend themselves towards Glass-Cannonism, and/or need lots and lots of pre-buffs. (Barb-Rage, Divine Power, Charge with Lance, Power Attack, Enlarged, Enhanced Weapons etc. etc.)...In short, be good at maths.

That style of play isn't for me, and I'm not one for book-keeping. And as a DM, I'd never let the characters get their buffs up. Or just put them in situations where they can't do it. You don't often get to do your massive charge-with-lance in a dungeoncrawl/enclosed space.
And that's if I let them do whatever-it-is-they-want-to-do. If you're DM is letting you do that consistently, he's doing something wrong. If his BBEG doesn't have a (Greater) Dispel Magic on him, then the DM's pet deserves everything it gets.

2-Handing will dominate if you spec for it. But, like I said, it tends towards glass-cannonism. Sure, you'll splatter one guy all over the room, but what happens when there are multiple opponents?
Each with True Strike'd Twin Spell'd Maximised Orbs heading in your direction?

Jack_Simth
2008-11-22, 01:11 AM
The problem I find with those massive damage output builds - and I think the Ubercharger is in the multiple hundreds (some get into the thousands) of damage. Is that a lot of them tend to lend themselves towards Glass-Cannonism, and/or need lots and lots of pre-buffs. (Barb-Rage, Divine Power, Charge with Lance, Power Attack, Enlarged, Enhanced Weapons etc. etc.)...In short, be good at maths.

That style of play isn't for me, and I'm not one for book-keeping. And as a DM, I'd never let the characters get their buffs up. Or just put them in situations where they can't do it. You don't often get to do your massive charge-with-lance in a dungeoncrawl/enclosed space.
And that's if I let them do whatever-it-is-they-want-to-do. If you're DM is letting you do that consistently, he's doing something wrong. If his BBEG doesn't have a (Greater) Dispel Magic on him, then the DM's pet deserves everything it gets.

2-Handing will dominate if you spec for it. But, like I said, it tends towards glass-cannonism. Sure, you'll splatter one guy all over the room, but what happens when there are multiple opponents?
Each with True Strike'd Twin Spell'd Maximised Orbs heading in your direction?
With a proper Ubercharger, they don't need True Strike, as your AC will generally end up in the negatives anyway (due to Shock Trooper).

But yeah - lots of minor opponents, spread out a bit, with appropriate bane arrows, will murder an ubercharger while still being reasonably effective against the other people in the party.

Jasdoif
2008-11-22, 01:22 AM
2-Handing will dominate if you spec for it. But, like I said, it tends towards glass-cannonism. Sure, you'll splatter one guy all over the room, but what happens when there are multiple opponents?
Each with True Strike'd Twin Spell'd Maximised Orbs heading in your direction?Maybe I'm missing something, but how is a non-charging melee character, two-handed or two-weapon, going to do better in that situation? :smallconfused: True strike enhanced attack rolls against touch AC should easily hit without needing any sort of AC penalty from a heedless charge.

MustacheFart
2008-11-22, 01:57 AM
With a proper Ubercharger, they don't need True Strike, as your AC will generally end up in the negatives anyway (due to Shock Trooper).

But yeah - lots of minor opponents, spread out a bit, with appropriate bane arrows, will murder an ubercharger while still being reasonably effective against the other people in the party.

Now, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't shock trooper let you choose how much of the power attack penalty you want to subtract from AC instead of attack? If thats true, wouldn't it be better to sack a certain amount from attack and just counter it with bonuses to attack from elsewhere that way your AC isn't as low and as glassy?

I mean I understand that at higher levels most mobs can hit you anyway so its a moot point but wouldn't the option be good for encounters with a bunch of guys that might not necessarily have high bonuses to attacks? Kind of make you more versatile, wouldn't it?

Also if you use robilar's gambit wouldn't it be good to get feats like Deft Opportunist (i think that's the one that gives +4 on AoOs) that way you wouldn't have to sack as much AC?

Also if you are proccing robilar's gambit by leaving an enemies threatened square, giving him an AoO (suggested in my other topic), wouldn't it be good to take feats like mobility to cancel out the bonus he gets from Robilar's gambit?

Basically, as far as uber-chargers go, I'm wondering if it's a pure focus all the way on nothing but damage at the cost of taking damage (glass cannon) or if after some point the damage is great enough that you can shift focus to your defenses.

In my campain, given party members, healing is NOT prevalent so, I'd be worried about making myself too much a glass cannon.

------------------------------------

On another note: Would feats like stand still and mage slayer be worth it in such a build? My DM tends to love having mobs run away so I can see where stand still could really come in handy ("hey stand still so I can whallop ya!").

The same goes for mage slayer. If I can get up to 'em and NOT 1-shot 'em then at least they can't cast without provoking an AoO, which would probably finish them off.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-22, 02:02 AM
I mean I understand that at higher levels most mobs can hit you anyway so its a moot point but wouldn't the option be good for encounters with a bunch of guys that might not necessarily have high bonuses to attacks? Kind of make you more versatile, wouldn't it?

If they don't have a good AB, they likely aren't worth losing sleep over.

MustacheFart
2008-11-22, 02:09 AM
Head over to the CharOp forums and do a search for Ubercharger.

CharOp forums? I don't see them. Is it on another sie?



If they don't have a good AB, they likely aren't worth losing sleep over.

True but what if their AB was enough to become a problem if you had a huge penalty to AC but not regularly. Like say DM tries to weeny-rush ya with a bunch of high AC guys with mid to low AB. You can't really sack all that AC as you could get overwhelmed and you can't sack it from attack to do PA because you need that high AB to hit them.

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 02:20 AM
CharOp forums? I don't see them. Is it on another sie?


http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339

click on the top sticky and look through there, or do a forum search with the tools. Either way, you'll find the current record of ubercharger as well as some other incarnations.

Eldariel
2008-11-22, 05:53 AM
The problem with Two-Weapon Fighting is the triple feat requirement. With the same amount of feats, THFer already gets 100s of extra damage while TWFer just learned to fight. If TWF only required one feat, it'd be a very realistic alternative (and as has been said many times, the better option for characters with extra damage dice, such as flanking Rogue, singing Bard+pals, Scout/Dervish, many ToB-classes, etc.).

Add Tome of Battle and Sword & Board doesn't suck either, although to tackle the real problem of S&B, you need to somehow make Light, Heavy and Tower Shields worthwhile over Buckler+Improved Buckler Defense/Animated Shield (or just no Shield - you don't lose out on much that way). That just leaves coming up with something that makes Swashbuckling worthwhile and we can call it a done deal.

MustacheFart
2008-11-22, 06:32 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339

click on the top sticky and look through there, or do a forum search with the tools. Either way, you'll find the current record of ubercharger as well as some other incarnations.

Thanks, I'm still looking but all I've found is a couple crazy ones; one that does over a billion damage in a round and one that does over 140k a round.

I can't seem to find a more realistic one that I could possibly employ without my DM thinking I'm on crack.

Saph
2008-11-22, 06:33 AM
That just leaves coming up with something that makes Swashbuckling worthwhile and we can call it a done deal.

Daring Outlaw?


Thanks, I'm still looking but all I've found is a couple crazy ones; one that does over a billion damage in a round and one that does over 140k a round.

I can't seem to find a more realistic one that I could possibly employ without my DM thinking I'm on crack.

The problem with the CharOp forums is that for every one bit of useful, practical build advice, there are two bits that are actually counterproductive due to being so a) cheesy b) obscure c) stupid d) questionably legal e) annoying or f) all of the above.

That said, there's good stuff in there. You just have to be skilled at sieving to find it.

- Saph

Cheesegear
2008-11-22, 06:39 AM
Basically, as far as uber-chargers go, I'm wondering if it's a pure focus all the way on nothing but damage at the cost of taking damage (glass cannon) or if after some point the damage is great enough that you can shift focus to your defenses.

In my campain, given party members, healing is NOT prevalent so, I'd be worried about making myself too much a glass cannon.

On another note: Would feats like stand still and mage slayer be worth it in such a build? My DM tends to love having mobs run away so I can see where stand still could really come in handy ("hey stand still so I can whallop ya!").

The same goes for mage slayer. If I can get up to 'em and NOT 1-shot 'em then at least they can't cast without provoking an AoO, which would probably finish them off.

As far as CharOp Boards goes, unfortunately, most of them see combat (and damage output) as the most important part of the combat. So, a lot of their 'optimisation', isn't really optimised at all. So, by all means, take a look at the Boards, but, I personally wouldn't follow their example.

Mage Slayer (and it's linked feats) and Stand Still will come at the cost of your damage output. But, are pretty much essiential to survival. And if you're not one-shotting casters (if you can get near them, of course), you're doing it wrong.

Eldariel
2008-11-22, 06:39 AM
Daring Outlaw?

- Saph

Swashbuckling as in one-handed fighting leaving the other empty. I'll be damned if the Daring Outlaw wouldn't pick up Two-Weapon Fighting. Einhander just doesn't do it and Duelist sucks. Even ToB doesn't give a one-hander anything they could do better than others (except Balance in the Sky, I guess - one level 8 Stance which duplicates a level 4 spell).

Vinotaur
2008-11-22, 06:48 AM
Generally speaking you focus very hard on one thing, for example, Mobility is a terrible feat and you would never waste a feat on it.

If your DM weenie rushes you, you can kill them power attacking for 1-2, if at all.

The fact of the matter is you really aren't a glass cannon, yeah you have no AC. But AC isn't a defense unless you spec it anyway. For the cost of say, 100,000gp at level 15, not to mention several class levels and stat set up, you can get an AC that enemies hit about 50% of the time.

Or you can buy a Cloak of Displacement and pour the other 70,000gp into being able to fly, more HP, better saves, ect.

There is no real reason to half-ass it and try to keep your AC up. Because there is almost no chance you are actually going to have an AC that will do you any good anyway.

At level 15, you might have a touch AC of 15-18, at the highest, and a Wizard is rolling 1d20+12-15. He's going to hit. For non-touch ACs, you can get a better chance of it, but you still aren't going to be getting real AC without building a ridiculous Tank character, who does no damage, spends all his time Combat Expertising away his BAB, and still dies from any spellcaster of any kind, and most Brutes.

Talic
2008-11-22, 07:04 AM
Easy answer? Do both.

Run the power attack/2hander tree, and the TWF tree, and use Armor spikes or improved unarmed strike for the off hand (I prefer the unarmed strike, as it gets power attack bonus as well, if at a lower multiplier).


Granted, Stormguard warrior + 2 weapon fighting with 4 arms, a mouthpick weapon, a prehensile tail weapon, and 3 attacks with each (6 if you're a dervish), and go to town with touch attacks. That's 36 attacks. Assuming 24 hit (Full bab and BAB -5), next round, your hit is at +120 damage.

I know there's an ability/maneuver/stance that gives you a bonus to hit whenever you land a hit, and another that lets you keep making attacks as long as you keep hitting, but provides greater and greater penalties. If I recall correctly, when done correctly, I've seen people (through reroll missed attack abilities) able to land something like 40-50 attacks. Next round, the hit is rather impressive, something like 300 damage.

But in all seriousness, ranged attack has the highest damage output combos other than infinite loops. (I've personally hit 135 million ranged, and I've seen 1.5 trillion damage hit.) Also has average damages around that of sword and board, which means it requires a degree of optimizing.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-22, 07:56 AM
When you've got a lot of decent effects that activate on a per-hit basis (such as the Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Vorpal (only on a nat-20, but worth a mention), or Wounding weapon properties; Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish (if you can find a way to move ten+ feet and still full attack) class abilities, and so on), then two-weapon fighting works better. Not necessarily even then. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree has significant costs:
at least one feat, which could be better spent on something else
minimum penalty of -2 to all attacks
restricted choice of off-hand weapon type
reduced benefit from other feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical)
double the gp cost for weapon enhancements
Let's consider just one of these: a Rogue attempting to use TWF to do more sneak attack damage. Rogues have 3/4 BAB, so they'll miss against a bunch of reasonable CR monsters. A -2 penalty means they'll miss more often. A rapier is the best Rogue weapon because it works well with Weapon Finesse and has a wide threat range, but it can only be used off-handed if you boost the penalties for all attacks to -4. And you'll be consistently at least 1 enhancement bonus behind by splitting your money to power-up two weapons instead of just one. So with 3/4 BAB -3 (minimum penalty) you'll miss a lot. But you've also chosen Two-Weapon Fighting instead of other feats -- like Craven, which adds +1 point of damage per character level to all sneak attacks (a non-dice bonus, so it gets multiplied on sneak criticals, too). Because TWF only works with full attacks, it's worth consistently less than feats that provide benefits all the time.

I haven't done the analysis for other classes. But at least for Rogues, unless they've got enough STR, or DEX with Weapon Finesse, to get to AB >= (character level +3) before weapon bonuses, Two-Weapon Fighting is a losing proposition. There just aren't enough opportunities to get sneak attack throughout a full attack to make it worthwhile. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is almost never worthwhile (exceptions for AB >= level + 6, and if retraining is allowed when too many monsters become sneak-resistant shortly after this feat is taken at level 9).

Ealstan
2008-11-22, 10:33 AM
Granted, Stormguard warrior + 2 weapon fighting with 4 arms, a mouthpick weapon, a prehensile tail weapon, and 3 attacks with each (6 if you're a dervish), and go to town with touch attacks. That's 36 attacks. Assuming 24 hit (Full bab and BAB -5), next round, your hit is at +120 damage.



You're forgetting Boot Knives, from FRCS. That's another 6 (or 12) attacks on the progression.

ericgrau
2008-11-22, 10:56 AM
Meh, SAB does almost as much damage as THF, and you get a massive AC bonus to boot. And power attack doesn't count; the penalty to hit is so insanely not worth it it's not even funny. I have the carefully-calculated graphs breaking it down. After damage lost due to misses, power attack yields at most +3 to +4 damage and typically negative to +1 damage. Leap attack boosts that by 50%ish IIRC and it - and other splatbook stuff - is cheese IMO. Both are mostly good for single attacks; your extra attacks already have enough AB penalties as it is and PA will often hurt not help you on full attacks. You're usually better off taking weapon specialization, for example, which helps both THFers and SABers. That leaves only a minor strength damage boost and slightly more weapon damage for the THFer. Just be sure to get energy damage added to your weapon not enhancement bonuses for maximum effectiveness as a SABer; perhaps for other fighting styles as well.

So SAB is the most rounded option, albeit underappreciated. I'd go that route unless you really, really only care about damage and are willing to dump your defense down the toilet just for a couple more points of damage.

As for THF vs. TWF? Ya, definately THF unless you have bonus damage for your TWF. That's common knowledge. The -2 to hit, the weaker off-hand weapon, less strength damage to the off-hand and the need to buy two magic weapons all add up big time. Even if you have bonus damage for TWF, rogues are fragile so you gotta pick your targets carefully. Don't be a rogue if all you care about is melee; you'll get hammered. Consider it a nice thing to have in addition to being a skillmonkey.

MustacheFart
2008-11-22, 11:01 AM
Currently, in my game my character is this:

1 Barbarian/2 Ranger/5 Fighter - and we just hit 9th level.

Ok so I am thinking for my characer I'll retrain him to ultimately end up something like this:

1 Barbarian (lion-totem for pounce) / 3 Warblade / 6 Fighter / 10 Frenzied Berzerker

Level progression: Feats:

1: Barbarian 1 Imp. Initiative (Human bf), Power Attack, Flaw(not sure which best prolly shakey): Leap Attack
2: Warblade 1
3: Warblade 2 Imp. Sunder
4: Fighter 1 Imp. Bullrush
5: Fighter 2 Intimidating Rage
6: Fighter 3 Destructive Rage
7: Fighter 4 Cleave
8: Warblade 3
9: FB 1 Shock Trooper
10: FB 2
11: FB 3
12: FB 4 Combat Brute
13: FB 5
14: FB 6
15: FB 7 Battle Jump
16: FB 8
17: FB 9
18: FB 10 Robilar's Gambit
19: Fighter 5
20: Fighter 6 Close Quarters Fighting (?)

For PA I think that would get me 5 for every point. 4 from FB + 1 from Combat Brute correct?

I'm not too sure on my feat placement and I took FB starting at 9 instead of what 7 I think is the earliest you can take it because that would make more since character wise. My character just hit 9 and is about to go into a blind fury so it's a better sell on the dm.

I'd like to work in the mage slayer feat and PMP feats and maybe even standstill as well as a couple but I don't know how I would.

Feats I wouldn't mind:

Standstill
Mage slayer
Occult Opportunist
PMP
and maybe some others but I think I'd have to go more fighter at which point I'd be sacking some good damage by losing supreme PA, no?

I went 3 warblade to get Iron Heart Surge and Sudden Leap but I'm not sure what other maneuvers + stance to pick.

The way I envisioned the character working would be: Charge in with shock trooper(full PA) + leap attack + battle jump + pounce equals some seriou damage I think. Then if still alive use Sudden Leap to get off another battle jump + leap attack + pounce...lol That's abusing it I thinkbut technically I don't see why sudden leap wouldn't do that.

Any ideas?

EDIT: Ericgrau: No offense but if I wanted to play SAB I'd copy one of them 100+ ac builds and sit on my ass giving out little damage. I prefer to smash face not let it smash me. Thanks though!

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-22, 11:16 AM
Frenzied Berzerker IS A TRAP!

Seriously, the first time you fail your Will save, the party WILL ALL DIE because none of them will be able to stop you.

Here's a lovely little build called "Chains Fall, Everyone Dies"

Half-Giant Fighter2/PsiWar4/Slayer3 (at ECL 10)

1st: Fighter - Track (base feat), Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain (fighter bonus)
2nd: Fighter - Power Attack
3rd: Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush (PsiWar bonus)
4th: Weapon Expertise
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Improved Trip

Okay, here's the concept:

It's an Ubercharger using Shock Trooper to move attack penalty to AC penalty. You manifest Expansion to increase one size category, which also increases reach. You now have 20' in which you threaten. If anyone in that area provokes an AoO, they get killed badly.

This is a combination Ubercharger/Gattling Tripper build. Instead of just attacking, make trip attempts. With your insane Strength and size bonus, you won't be failing on most things. Then you get a free attack after the trip... for insane damage.

manifest Psionic Lion's Pounce for full attack on charge.

Further progression:Fighter2/PsiWar4/Slayer9/pyrokeneticist4

12th: Leap Attack
after that, just grab feats to choice, as this increases your damage per hit to over 100 on average

Pyro lets you add 2d6 fire damage per hit. Sure, it's not stellar, but hey, it's better than nothing. It also lets you shoot 4d6 firebolts at things well out of range.

Aneantir
2008-11-22, 11:21 AM
Frenzied Berzerker IS A TRAP!

Seriously, the first time you fail your Will save, the party WILL ALL DIE because none of them will be able to stop you.

Not too familiar with Iron Heart Surge, are you?
Basically, what the maneuver does is instantly allow you to break out of the Frenzy, so that you are in no way endangering your fellow party members or civilians. No Will Save to see if you actually break out, just plain, flat negation of the effect.

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 11:22 AM
Meh, SAB does almost as much damage as THF, and you get a massive AC bonus to boot. And power attack doesn't count; the penalty to hit is so insanely not worth it it's not even funny. I have the carefully-calculated graphs breaking it down. After damage lost due to misses, power attack yields at most +3 to +4 damage and typically negative to +1 damage. Leap attack boosts that by 50%ish IIRC and it's cheese IMO. Both are mostly good for single attacks; your extra attacks already have enough AB penalties as it is and PA will often hurt not help you on full attacks. You're usually better off taking weapon specialization, for example, which helps both THFers and SABers. That leaves only a minor strength damage boost and slightly more weapon damage for the THFer. Just be sure to get energy damage added to your weapon not enhancement bonuses for maximum effectiveness as a SABer; perhaps for other fighting styles as well.


Blasphemy. Bonuses to hit from outside sources are so easy to come by that you can be miles ahead of the AC curve. Bard Song, Recitation, IWIN stones, high Str, Haste, counting as invisible because your wizard blinded them with Glitterdust, and a tons of other bonuses are so prelevant in mid levels that you can freely PA for some or all of your bonus. Plus, if you factor in things like Shocktrooper that let you PA with impuny without worry of missing, you are leagues ahead. And the "Huge" AC bonus is 7 points with a +5 large steel shield, and is EASILY negated by spending a little bit of cash on a +3 equivilant Animated Shield. Armor is the cheapest thing to upgrade, and by the time you get a decent + from your clerics Magic Vestiment, the cash is a drop in the bucket.

You can't do calcs in a vacuum. Thats not accurate. You have to factor that in. If you have decent party dynamics, PA comes out leagues ahead of SNB, to the point where its not funny. D&D is a team game, remember that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-22, 11:22 AM
Not too familiar with Iron Heart Surge, are you?
Basically, what the maneuver does is instantly allow you to break out of the Frenzy, so that you are in no way endangering your fellow party members or civilians. No Will Save to see if you actually break out, just plain, flat negation of the effect.

which you can't activate when you're raging, because it requires concentration.

ericgrau
2008-11-22, 11:24 AM
Blasphemy. Bonuses to hit from outside sources are so easy to come by that you can be miles ahead of the AC curve. Bard Song, Recitation, IWIN stones, high Str, Haste, counting as invisible because your wizard blinded them with Glitterdust, and a tons of other bonuses are so prelevant in mid levels that you can freely PA for some or all of your bonus. Plus, if you factor in things like Shocktrooper that let you PA with impuny without worry of missing, you are leagues ahead. And the "Huge" AC bonus is 7 points with a +5 large steel shield, and is EASILY negated by spending a little bit of cash on a +3 equivilant Animated Shield. Armor is the cheapest thing to upgrade, and by the time you get a decent + from your clerics Magic Vestiment, the cash is a drop in the bucket.

You can't do calcs in a vacuum. Thats not accurate. You have to factor that in. If you have decent party dynamics, PA comes out leagues ahead of SNB, to the point where its not funny. D&D is a team game, remember that.

Nope, AC progresses with AB 1 for 1. It is insanely easy to get bonus from multiple sources if you know where to find them: both multiple gear sources and the caster bonuses you brought up. That is correct about the animated shield, once you're high enough level to afford it (around mid levels at least) it is the better option, though I think it is kinda silly for all high level fighters to have an animated shield as standard equipment - seeing that it's the best option. Though at the same level that you get to animated shield PA becomes garbage... unless you have the splatbookage to boost its damage.

I just noticed how much splatbookage is in the O.P.'s build, so I really have no place in this thread. I'm out. With a build like that go ahead and do THF PA. Do grab an animated shield soon as you're getting to the level.

Aneantir
2008-11-22, 11:30 AM
which you can't activate when you're raging, because it requires concentration.

Nowhere in it's description does Iron Heart Surge state that concentration is required to use it.

Knaight
2008-11-22, 11:32 AM
To get back to the shield argument, sword and board is useless. You lose out on a lot of damage, from strength alone, without even getting into power attack and such. Your AC makes up for it and gives you an edge, unless saves are targeted in which case the sheer amount of rounds your opponent is going to be surviving due to your inferior damage gives them more attacks and you have less defense wise. Shields are way less powerful than they should have been.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-22, 11:34 AM
Not necessarily even then. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree has significant costs:
at least one feat, which could be better spent on something else
minimum penalty of -2 to all attacks
restricted choice of off-hand weapon type
reduced benefit from other feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical)
double the gp cost for weapon enhancements
Let's consider just one of these: a Rogue attempting to use TWF to do more sneak attack damage. Rogues have 3/4 BAB, so they'll miss against a bunch of reasonable CR monsters. A -2 penalty means they'll miss more often. A rapier is the best Rogue weapon because it works well with Weapon Finesse and has a wide threat range, but it can only be used off-handed if you boost the penalties for all attacks to -4. And you'll be consistently at least 1 enhancement bonus behind by splitting your money to power-up two weapons instead of just one. So with 3/4 BAB -3 (minimum penalty) you'll miss a lot. But you've also chosen Two-Weapon Fighting instead of other feats -- like Craven, which adds +1 point of damage per character level to all sneak attacks (a non-dice bonus, so it gets multiplied on sneak criticals, too). Because TWF only works with full attacks, it's worth consistently less than feats that provide benefits all the time.

I haven't done the analysis for other classes. But at least for Rogues, unless they've got enough STR, or DEX with Weapon Finesse, to get to AB >= (character level +3) before weapon bonuses, Two-Weapon Fighting is a losing proposition. There just aren't enough opportunities to get sneak attack throughout a full attack to make it worthwhile. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is almost never worthwhile (exceptions for AB >= level + 6, and if retraining is allowed when too many monsters become sneak-resistant shortly after this feat is taken at level 9).
I've actually run the math, previously, against a couple of different AC's, although at the time, was basing it on a fighter who took +Equivalent abilities and the two-weapon feat chain. With enough +Equivalent abilites, it does work out that way.

ericgrau
2008-11-22, 11:36 AM
To get back to the shield argument, sword and board is useless. You lose out on a lot of damage, from strength alone, without even getting into power attack and such. Your AC makes up for it and gives you an edge, unless saves are targeted in which case the sheer amount of rounds your opponent is going to be surviving due to your inferior damage gives them more attacks and you have less defense wise. Shields are way less powerful than they should have been.

+1 to +3 damage (at higher levels) << +2 to +5 AC. Though I count weapon damage too so it's: +2.5 to +4.5 damage (at higher levels) << +2 to +5 AC. I'm not counting 18-20ish, when it reaches ~+5.5 damage vs. +7 AC. Taking away a point of the enemy's AB - often a 10% decrease in damage (sometimes more or less; % benefit improves with each +1 AC) - is usually worth more than boosting your damage by less than 5% (for each point). SAB is not always the better option, but usually is. The back line typically has defenses of their own and not all baddies are casters. And you can always drop your shield if it comes to that.

But it's moot in this thread, cuz when you add cheese to PA it tips the balance way over the edge towards THF. Or just grab an animated shield.

Matthew
2008-11-22, 11:47 AM
Did somebody mention math? :smallbiggrin:

Level 1


Fighter 1 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 1 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)


Level 2


Fighter 2 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 2 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)


Level 3


Fighter 3 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Rogue 3 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)


Level 4


Fighter 4 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Rogue 4 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)


Level 5


Fighter 5 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Rogue 5 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)


Level 6


Fighter 6 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Rogue 6 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)


Level 7


Fighter 7 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-]
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Rogue 7 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)


Level 8


Fighter 8 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)

Rogue 8 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)


Level 9


Fighter 9 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 9 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)


Level 10


Fighter 10 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 10 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 2 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)


Level 11


Fighter 11 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 11 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)


Level 12


Fighter 12 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)

Rogue 12 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)


Level 13


Fighter 13 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = –1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Rogue 13 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)


Level 14


Fighter 14 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 0 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Rogue 14 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)


Level 15


Fighter 15 (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Rogue 15 (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 1 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)


Seriously, though, you can work out the total potential damage possible by running the numbers against a range of armour classes (say 11-40), factoring in critical hits. That's not too hard, but there are many, many, variables to consider. For instance, weapon and shield is a good choice when fighting opponents with low hit points; +2 armour class is nothing to sneeze at when a character is level one and fighting kobolds, it just doesn't mean much when he's level ten and fighting big monsters.

Knaight
2008-11-22, 12:20 PM
+1 to +3 damage (at higher levels) << +2 to +5 AC. Though I count weapon damage too so it's: +2.5 to +4.5 damage (at higher levels) << +2 to +5 AC.

Lets try this one again.
Str 16, at mid level +4 from a magic item, +2 from stat lifts, +4 from a size increase, +2 inherent bonus from either a magic item or getting a wish. Str 28, no sweat.
So with a long sword and shield 1d8+9 damage. Average damage 13.5/attack.
Now with a great sword. 2d6+13 damage. Average damage 20/attack.

Thats a good 6.5, at what is probably level 10/11 ish. Assuming that two attacks hit, which is reasonable given how easy it is to get attack boosts(the third attack at 11 isn't going to most of the time) were looking at 27 damage, against 40 damage. Meaning that against an opponent with 120 hp, which is reasonable the sword and board guy drops him in 5 turns, where the two handed weapon guy drops him in 3. If they are also using normal attacks the easy enough to get +5 or so for shield bonus could level out the damage done, but if they were targeting a save, the two handed fighter pulls ahead here. And thats without power attack. With power attack, the sword and board fighter could power attack 3 on their first attack, doing 30 damage a turn, and dropping the enemy in 4, instead of five, however this puts damage at 30 to 46, meaning that the two handed fighter is doing about 1.5 times as much damage, which is huge.

nightwyrm
2008-11-22, 01:20 PM
Sword and board is dumb because of one thing: animated shield. With an animated shield, you can THF or TWF and get your measly shield bonus.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-22, 01:49 PM
Did somebody mention math? :smallbiggrin:
That's bogus, Matthew. It's not even math; it's a tabulation of best-case AB and damage output assuming
every enemy is vulnerable to sneak attack from flanking,
you have a flanking partner in place, and
you can make a full attack.
Which is nonsense, of course.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-22, 02:00 PM
That's bogus, Matthew. It's not even math; it's a tabulation of best-case AB and damage output assuming
every enemy is vulnerable to sneak attack from flanking,
you have a flanking partner in place, and
you can make a full attack.
Which is nonsense, of course.

Every enemy is vulnerable because the Rogue would be smart and take Penetrating Strike to ignore immunties.

Matthew
2008-11-22, 02:01 PM
That's bogus, Matthew. It's not even math; it's a tabulation of best-case AB and damage output assuming
every enemy is vulnerable to sneak attack from flanking,
you have a flanking partner in place, and
you can make a full attack.
Which is nonsense, of course.

It is not supposed to show every case, just what is possible under those conditions for the Rogue and Fighter. As I noted below that "blah, blah" stuff there are too many variables to draw perfect conclusions (the full attacks make no difference, you can just ignore them for the purposes of the above comparison and focus on only the first attack in each entry).

I take exception to your conclusion that it is not math, though; it is math. However, the only way to get a really fair result is to find average values of incidence for each event and monster and compare the average damage totals by level and over time. The criteria you create to judge the effectiveness of X will largely determine the conclusions that you draw.

Comparisons by style would look more like:

Level 1


Fighter 1 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (2)] = (2D6+2, 9.0)

Fighter 1 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Fighter 1 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 1 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (0) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Rogue 1 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 1 A 70% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 70% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 65% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 55% (2D6, 7.0) / 55% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 1 A 60% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 60% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 55% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 45% (2D6, 7.0) / 45% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 1 A 50% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 50% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 45% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 35% (2D6, 7.0) / 35% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 1 A 40% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 40% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 35% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 25% (2D6, 7.0) / 25% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 1 A 30% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 30% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 25% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 15% (2D6, 7.0) / 15% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 1 A 20% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 20% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 10% (1D8, 4.5) / 10% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 15% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 5% (2D6, 7.0) / 5% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 2


Fighter 2 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 2 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 2 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 2 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Rogue 2 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 2 A 70% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 70% (1D8, 4.5) / 70% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 70% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 60% (2D6, 7.0) / 60% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 2 A 60% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 60% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 50% (2D6, 7.0) / 50% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 2 A 50% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 50% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 40% (2D6, 7.0) / 40% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 2 A 40% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 40% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 30% (2D6, 7.0) / 30% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 2 A 30% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 30% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 20% (2D6, 7.0) / 20% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 2 A 20% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 20% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 20% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 10% (2D6, 7.0) / 10% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 3


Fighter 3 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 3 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 3 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 3 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Rogue 3 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 3 A 75% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 75% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 75% (1D8, 4.5) / 75% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 75% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 65% (3D6, 10.5) / 65% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 3 A 65% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 65% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 65% (1D8, 4.5) / 65% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 65% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 55% (3D6, 10.5) / 55% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 3 A 55% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 55% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 55% (1D8, 4.5) / 55% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 55% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 45% (3D6, 10.5) / 45% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 3 A 45% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 45% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 45% (1D8, 4.5) / 45% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 45% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 35% (3D6, 10.5) / 35% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 3 A 35% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 35% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 35% (1D8, 4.5) / 35% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 35% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 25% (3D6, 10.5) / 25% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 3 A 25% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 25% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 25% (1D8, 4.5) / 25% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 25% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 15% (3D6, 10.5) / 15% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 4


Fighter 4 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Fighter 4 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Fighter 4 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Rogue 4 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Rogue 4 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 4 A 80% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 80% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 80% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 80% (1D8, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 80% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 70% (3D6, 10.5) / 70% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 4 A 70% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 70% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 70% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 70% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 60% (3D6, 10.5) / 60% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 4 A 60% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 60% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 60% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 60% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 50% (3D6, 10.5) / 50% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 4 A 50% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 50% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 50% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 50% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 40% (3D6, 10.5) / 40% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 4 A 40% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 40% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 40% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 40% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 30% (3D6, 10.5) / 30% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 4 A 30% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 30% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 30% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 30% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 20% (3D6, 10.5) / 20% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 5


Fighter 5 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 5 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 5 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 5 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Rogue 5 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 5 A 80% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 80% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 80% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 80% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 80% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 70% (4D6, 14.0) / 70% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 5 A 70% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 70% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 70% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 70% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 70% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 60% (4D6, 14.0) / 60% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 5 A 60% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 60% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 60% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 60% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 60% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 50% (4D6, 14.0) / 50% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 5 A 50% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 50% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 50% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 50% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 50% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 40% (4D6, 14.0) / 40% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 5 A 40% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 40% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 40% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 40% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 40% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 30% (4D6, 14.0) / 30% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 5 A 30% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 30% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 30% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 30% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 20% (4D6, 14.0) / 20% (4D6, 14.0)

Level 6


Fighter 6 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 6 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 6 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 6 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Rogue 6 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Level 7


Fighter 7 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 7 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 7 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-]
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 7 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Rogue 7 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 8


Fighter 8 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Fighter 8 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)

Fighter 8 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Rogue 8 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Rogue 8 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 9


Fighter 9 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 9 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 9 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 9 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Rogue 9 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Level 10


Fighter 10 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 10 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 10 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 10 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Rogue 10 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Level 11


Fighter 11 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 11 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 11 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 11 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5.0)

Rogue 11 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 12


Fighter 12 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Fighter 12 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)

Fighter 12 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 12 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Rogue 12 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 13


Fighter 13 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 13 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 13 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 13 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Rogue 13 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 14


Fighter 14 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 14 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 14 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 14 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Flanking (2)] = 12 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Rogue 14 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 15


Fighter 15 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 15 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 15 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 15 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Flanking (2)] = 13 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)

Rogue 15 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)


The formula for working out total potential average damage is:

[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)]

...but that can be misleading, especially if the damage you do in a single hit greatly exceeds the number of hit points a monster has.

Mephit
2008-11-22, 02:01 PM
Sword and board is dumb because of one thing: animated shield. With an animated shield, you can THF or TWF and get your measly shield bonus.

Yeah, who the hell starts at level 1, when buying such an important part of your equipment is way above your wealth? How dumb. :smallsigh:

Trouvere
2008-11-22, 02:24 PM
Math, schmath. Of course THFers do more, a lot more, average damage. What these analyses neglect is... the actual game.

You start out at 1st level fighting rats or centipedes or kobolds or orcs or whatever... things with 5 HP or less. It doesn't matter whether you're doing 2d6+7 with a greatsword or 1d6+2(plus occasional 1d6 SA) with a rapier - if you successfully hit, your opponent goes down. Mr THF who hits on a 10 will MISS more often (45% of the time) than Mr TWF who only hits on a 13 but gets two attempts (hit twice 16%, hit once 48%, miss completely only 36%). Over a very wide range of attack bonus vs AC, this is true - the TWFer will fail to miss more often than the THFer. Moreover, unless he has both Power Attack and Cleave, the THFer simply cannot drop more than a single opponent in a round. This actually matters when a 1st leveller is being swarmed by centipedes. As a last point, I'm irritated when THFer tries to take an enemy alive and completely fails to manage not to kill him because he has trouble doing less than 11 points a hit.

Yes, TWFers need to make full attacks to get any use from their offhand weapon. But I've lost track of the number of combats in overcrowded situations in which you just keep 5' stepping over the bodies to full attack the next opponent. Happens all the time.

Against big angry sacks of HPs, yes, of course THF is the way to go. But even as you level up, still a large number of the opponents you face seem to go down to only 2 or 3 hits. In my experience, Mr THF goes in first, gets his glorious big hit... and then the TWFer dices and slices from behind, practically only needing only to make contact to finish the enemy off. Maybe Mr Rogue doesn't get the splattery glory, but he gets more than his fair share of the actual kills. Once again after the first or second hit, it's Not Missing Completely that matters more than doing maximal damage. Moreoever, it's more efficient to let the THFer bring his next attack to bear on an undamaged opponent than to waste the majority of his PAing uber-damage on something that he left on its last legs last round.

ZeroNumerous
2008-11-22, 02:27 PM
1 Barbarian (lion-totem for pounce) / 3 Warblade / 6 Fighter / 10 Frenzied Berzerker

Take Fighter first(or preferably not at all), as every two levels count for +1 on your Initiator level. With an IL of 4(7/2=3+1=4) you get to start off with 2nd level maneuvers.


As a last point, I'm irritated when THFer tries to take an enemy alive and completely fails to manage not to kill him because he has trouble doing less than 11 points a hit.

Unless the THF cannot deal non-lethal damage for some reason, then I don't see why he couldn't capture someone.

Matthew
2008-11-22, 02:29 PM
Math, schmath. Of course THFers do more, a lot more, average damage. What these analyses neglect is... the actual game.

Heh, heh. I assure you, the actual game hasn't been neglected. The only point in working out the maths is to use as a tool. The main drawback for fighting with two weapons is the feat investment. If there were no feats involved, things would be a lot clearer. Weapon and shield is almost always the best way to go until round about level four.

Vexxation
2008-11-22, 03:01 PM
*math*

Um... who in their right mind a) Plays a Straight Fighter or b) Selects Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization?

I mean, haven't these topic been beaten to death, that Fighter is useless past second level, and that there's always a better feat than WF/WS?

Yes, of course, if you make silly decisions your THF is going to perform about equally to your TWF.

Matthew
2008-11-22, 03:07 PM
Um... who in their right mind a) Plays a Straight Fighter or b) Selects Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization?

I mean, haven't these topic been beaten to death, that Fighter is useless past second level, and that there's always a better feat than WF/WS?

Yes, of course, if you make silly decisions your THF is going to perform about equally to your TWF.

That is a core only comparison. Trying to keep the variables down. There is not much else in the core books that will help you out in that regard. Regardless of whether fighter is useless past second level, the class makes for a good basis of comparison when compared against itself. :smallwink:

Aneantir
2008-11-22, 03:08 PM
I mean, haven't these topic been beaten to death, that Fighter is useless past second level, and that there's always a better feat than WF/WS?

This is not necessarily true. Fighter is a poorly constructed class if it's limited to the core books. Once you go beyond core, adding in more material, the fighter bonus feat list grows and he begins to have more and more options. Right now, at the peak of 3.5 options, Fighters are a very, very solid class. Nothing compared to a casting class, still, but having a build with many fighter levels isn't as impaired as it was back in core.

As an example of this, here's Jack B. Quick, from the Gleemax Char Op board:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646185
20 levels of fighter, and still viable.

Vinotaur
2008-11-22, 05:01 PM
Just to kill both the idea that Power attack isn't very good at high levels, and that SAB somehow does almost as much damage as THFing.

Some level 14 challenges:

Werewolf Lord/NightWing/Nalfashenne/Trumpet Archon.

Average AC 25.
Most common AC 27.
Highest AC 30.

Level 14 Fighter has a +4 Weapon (GMW with an Ioun Stone) +3 of whatever he wants, assume it same for both types. He also has a +4 Animated Shield courtesy of MV, not that it matters.

Stats are 22 Orc Start, + 3 Inherent +6 item for 31. +10 Str mod.

To hit is +14 BAB +10 Str +4 Weapon +2 GWF +who knows how much other stuff that we won't count = +30.

First assuming that he can bypass every kind of DR (to favor the SAB) even against 30 AC optimal Power attack is 2 for +2.5 average damage.

AC 27, optimal is 5 for 6.5 extra damage

AC 25, optimal 6 for an additional 12.5 average damage.

Compare that to a SAB fighter who averages 61 damage against AC 30 instead of 78.5, 69 against AC 27 instead of 92.5, and still shouldn't power attack, but on 25 should power attack for 2 and gets 74.5 average damage instead of 101.5.

Net advantage of THFing: 15-25 damage.

Now, all of those creatures have DR 10, two silver, one good, one evil.

Assuming that you can't bypass that DR optimal power attack increases by one at each AC mentioned, and the difference in average damage is about 1.5 times greater for Power attack versus not.

However for poor SAB, he should even be Power attacking at every AC.

Average damage is: AC/SAB/THF

30/35.5/57.5
27/42.5/71.5
25/47/80.5

That's a significant advantage for Power attack in all situations, and an even more significant advantage for THFing.

Fizban
2008-11-23, 03:08 AM
Had to go to work or I would have posted earlier, but a point on AC from the first page. It takes a ton of effort and cash to get your AC high enough to be useful at higher levels, because everything has massive AB at that point. So, you focus on getting miss chances (which becomes harder as everything gets constant true seeing for free). But, you still keep it as reasonably high as possible, to counter the same tactic you're using: Power Attack. Sure, the Ubercharger always hits, and with reach and AoOs he doesn't need to worry about it, but if you don't have any AC at all to begin with, he doesn't have to drop his own AC to power attack you, and you're even more screwed.

AC still matters not to make enemies miss, but to force them to use less power attack to avoid missing, which they really don't want to do if they've managed to beat all your flat % miss chances.

I agree with the above points on sword and board and TWF at low levels, it's annoying, but if you're playing through them, you have to consider the levels at which you'll be playing. I tried to write up a table comparing Maximize and Empower Spell, along with various spells with different numbers and sizes of dies, and I realized that while Maximize is always numerically superior at 20th, the levels at which you get the standard attack spells line up better with Empower, and an Empowered spell will always have more dice than a spell of the same slot level when you gain access to them. Aside from that, in actual play I can't see having access to an extra attack from TWF or Cleave ever being a bad thing, and the Fighter's got a lot of bonus feats.

Hida Reju
2008-11-23, 03:30 AM
Two weapon fighting has two real banes

1. A reliance on extra damage from things like sneak attack. This is both good and bad since rogue lvls help round out a lot of characters with skills, Ref saves, and gives you evasion.
2. Cost of boosting two weapons. Most optimum mid to high lvl build I have seen is a pair of +1 Adamantine Shortswords with Wounding and then later morphing. That is some serious money dropped.

If either one of these answers anoy you then pass on the two weapon fighting. As far as the answer of needing that full round attack to get the extra hits to count you can do the same thing with the lion totem barbarian for pounce and it's just as effective for TWF.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 03:45 AM
Um... who in their right mind a) Plays a Straight Fighter or b) Selects Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization?

I mean, haven't these topic been beaten to death, that Fighter is useless past second level, and that there's always a better feat than WF/WS?

Not useless, just use impaired!

Thurbane
2008-11-23, 05:57 AM
Not too familiar with Iron Heart Surge, are you?
Basically, what the maneuver does is instantly allow you to break out of the Frenzy, so that you are in no way endangering your fellow party members or civilians. No Will Save to see if you actually break out, just plain, flat negation of the effect.
So ToB introduces a way to negate the one drawback of Frenzied Berserker? Super.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 06:01 AM
So ToB introduces a new way to negate the one drawback of Frenzied Berserker? Super.Fixed. There's about 20 ways to negate it by this point. A class balanced by 'you'll kill your allies on occasion' will either be useless outside of theory(because who would play with it) or awesome(because that drawback never comes up). FB went with the second option. That said, IHS is one of the few things wrong with ToB.

Eldariel
2008-11-23, 06:19 AM
Also, IHS can't be used while Frenzying - it's not "attacking to the best of your ability". PHB introduces the most efficient means in Cleric 2 spell "Calm Emotions" (although it does allow a Will-save). Just getting the FB +18 to Will-saves and one-level dip in Cleric for Pride and Luck-domains, and he'll be unlike to fail his saves (0.0125% to be precise - the same as for 3 consecutive 20s).

Talic
2008-11-23, 06:35 AM
Eric, your points are hard to argue.

That's because in all points where power attack isn't worth using, you shout it from the mountain...

And in all points where it is, you dismiss anything used to make it effective as cheese.

In and of itself, charge is a remarkably fragile attack form. An intelligent opponent will almost never be the victim of one. Difficult terrain, obstacles, movement, blocking of LOS, all stop the charge mechanic cold.

Shock trooper provides an ability to focus on offense over defense, rather than damage over accuracy. Not inherently bad, by itself. It's when you use everything to get the x8 or x10 multiplier that it gets that way.

Even without it, Leap attack would let you get a decent return on a charge, allowing you to do a power attack for 3 and get +12 damage.

Attack bonuses are dreadfully easy to acquire. That's because the game is set up to reward the offensive.

Let's compare, at level 5.

A 23 strength orc barbarian, enraged (27 strength), with a Bull's strength spell (31 strength), and a +1 greatsword, will be swinging a +18 to hit on a charge.

By comparison, a Mithril fullplate wearing fighter, with a Large steel shield +1, a +2 Amulet of natural armor, a +1 ring of protection, and the dodge feat... 28 AC, assuming Dex 16.

Barbarian hits 55% of the time. Not bad, considering the fighter has about 3-4x the gear value.

Typical AC's in the level 5 range are around 22, on the high end.

Now, with a +18 to hit, vs AC 22, you have an 85% hit chance for 23 average. Weighted average is: 19.55.

Assuming both without and with Leap attack, assuming target AC 22.

Weighted damage:{table=header]Power attack | Weighted damage | Leap Weight
0 | 19.55 | 19.55
1 | 20 | 21.6
2 | 20.25 | 23.25
3 | 20.3 | 24.5
4 | 20.15 | 25.35
5 | 19.8 | 25.8[/table]

So, we can infer that Leap attack promotes a bigger "swinging for the fences mentality" but still provides for, at this level, about a +5 damage boost. Hardly game breaking. Now, there are other ways to boost power attack, as well, for example, shock trooper, which pushes weighted damage to 28.05 and 36.55, respectively.

Bottom line, too many people assume "cheese" = "I don't like it".

Cheese is when you use a feat or combination of feats in a manner that it was not designed, to gain an advantage you shouldn't have.

Leap attack was clearly designed to increase power attacks on a charge.

Shock Trooper was clearly designed to allow you to play fast, loose, and risky. Trading hits, and such.

Now, when you combine certain things together (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Robilar's Gambit + more multipliers, for example), you can achieve an effect that gives you the advantage so greatly, that it wipes out the drawback. I mean, who cares if your AC is 0? If anything you charge dies, you're not getting hit much.

MustacheFart
2008-11-24, 02:01 AM
Thanks, for all the feedback guys.

Now my next question is: would it be better to go something other than FB? I mean a couple people have mentioned fighter is not worth going past level 2...so suggestions?


I mean I know there is more than just damage but given my party make-up I would like to make my booms BOOM as much as possible.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-24, 03:24 AM
One thing...

Could be a viable TWFighter a fighter relying on TWF and combat reflexes?

I mean, there are CR feats to attack twice or more in the same Attack of opportunity, and a lot of feats allowing to have more things triggering AOOs
(like Supernatural Insticts for supernatural abilities, abilities, the Mage Slayer feat and so).

Maybe the strike could trigger a weapon style, or something similar, too..

MustacheFart
2008-11-24, 04:36 AM
That's a good point, Kaiyanwang, and I do like the sounds of a CR-utilizing character.


Basically,

my stats in my game right now as an 8th level character who just hit 9th level (haven't done anything with the level yet) are:

STR 17 - 1 point from lvl 8
DEX 18
CON 15 - 1 point from lvl 4
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 10

*DM wanted us to use 18,16,14,12,10, and 8 for stats.

Levels are: 1 Barbarian / 2 Ranger / 5 Fighter

The campaign is full of a mix of monsters/creatures including but not limited to: dragons, kabolds, humans, etc. Also the gameworld IS primarily inhabbited by Orcs. Subsequently, my Favored Enemy is Orcs (I rolled it).

I know, I know not the most optimized build but I built him more on a session by session basis. Originally, I was going to be a ranged style dps character which means I probably wasn't going to go past level 2 of fighter-just enough to suck up a couple feats. However, the dm "encouraged" myself in becoming a melee style character and so I continued, now confused as to what to do (also DM said one more class = xp penalty for me), as a fighter.

I could completely retrain my character but really...the DM, although he's playing to win, hasn't been throwing optimized encounters at us. I've played in a couple optimized games and this definitely isn't one, because the DM isn't that up on the rules and is focusing more on the RP/epicness of the battles as far as style goes (which I'm glad for).

That said, I don't think I really need a super optimized character. That's not to say I don't want to put down the hurt and be able to handle my own.

So, is there any recommendations on how to continue my character with as little retraining as possible?

I thought on it over the weekend and I really don't want to retrain purely to make my guy an uber-charger.

My last character that I played for a substantial amount of time, at the last sesson, was specifically: Orc, 6 Barbarian/3 Eye of Gruumsh/1 Bear Warrior/4 Warshaper/1 Fighter/5 Frenzied Berzerker. Not really totally optimized from the start but more so through influence later on during the game (my first real "optimized" character...what can I say I don't get to play often). Even so, he was pretty damn strong...I could have killed the whole party if I wanted. In fact, I got the triforce of power in the end but DM was against me offing the party and becoming the next Gannon...>_<...damn whiners and their hippy dippy lotr bs. Anyway, I got my fill of: run in...whack whack whack....run/move to next mob...whack whack whack.

I'd like to make this guy...just...more well-rounded. Definitely not a push-over but with more I can do/more options available. Feats, like standstill and mage slayer feats seem very appealing and I think they would help make my character be more versatile but I'm afraid that if I don't really optimize for them they'll just become a waste of space.

All of the above said, if I just took my character how he is, added shock-trooper + leap attack (+ maybe battle jump) and went fighter the rest of the way, putting feats in stuff like standstill, mage slayer, PMP, robilars, etc would I still be a pretty tough customer?

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-24, 11:29 AM
The best thing is to ad an effect to the stikes made with the AOOs.

Something like Three Mountains (CWar) , Staggering Critical (Drow of The Underdark) or Staggering Blow (DMCompendium).

Telonius
2008-11-24, 12:58 PM
I have no idea whatsoever about the math of this, but I've been working on a build (spoilered below) over in the Character Builder thread. What happens if you throw Dervish into the mix?

Human Ranger2/Fighter4/Dervish10/Tempest4

Feats in bold.

Ranger 1 - Dodge (first level feat), Power Attack (Human)
Ranger 2 - Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger combat style feat)
Rgr2/Fighter1 - Mobility (third level feat), Combat Reflexes (Fighter Feat)
Rgr2/Ftr2 - Weapon Focus (Scimitar) (Fighter Feat)
Rgr2/Ftr3
Rgr2/Ftr4 - Resounding Blow (Fighter Feat; BoED), Improved TWF (normal 6th level)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Dervish1 - Slashing Blades (Dervish); Dervish Dance 1/day, +1 to blade attacks/damage
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der2 - Fast Movement +5 (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der3 - Spring Attack (Dervish); Dervish Dance 2/day, +2 to blade attacks/damage during dance, Improved Critical (normal 9th level feat)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4 - Dance of Death (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tempest1 - Tempest Defense +1
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp2 - Ambidexterity (Penalties to TWF lessened by 1); Two-Weapon Rend (normal 12th level feat; PHB2)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp3 - Tempest Defense +2, Two-Weapon Versatility
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp4 - Ambidexterity (Penalties to TWF lessened by 1)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der5/Tmp4 - Fast Movement +10 (Dervish), Dervish Dance 3/day, Greater TWF (normal 15th-level feat).
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der6/Tmp4 - Improved Reaction (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der7/Tmp4 - Elaborate Parry (Dervish), Dervish Dance 4/day
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der8/Tmp4 - Fast Movement +15 (Dervish), Leap Attack (normal 18th level; CAdv)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der9/Tmp4 - Tireless Dance (Dervish), Dervish Dance 5/day
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der10/Tmp4 - A Thousand Cuts (Dervish)

Starting stats: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10. (28 point buy)
Bump Dex throughout, for a final Dex of 22.
At level 20, we have:
BAB: +20
Standard attack (not including any magic items):
20 (BAB) + 6 (Dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus) = +27
Full Attack: +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12. Damage: d6+1, 15-20x2.
When in Dervish Dance: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17. Damage: d6+6, 15-20x2.

Would the larger number of attacks, along with the higher crit range, be enough to make up for the lower multiplier?

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:07 PM
By RAW, that doesn't work (Dervish makes Scimitar a Light Weapon). If you want to make a TWF Power Attacker, you need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, -4, Unarmed TWFer, Natural Attacks or Reverent Blade (best out of the bunch - few extra feats, Two-Handed Power Attack for both ends, etc. but only works with Valenar Double Scimitar). In fact, X 5/Dervish 10/Reverent Blade 5 is amazing for melee damage. Although ToB makes everything better, of course. Dervish 7/Reverent Blade 5/X 8 is better.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-24, 01:09 PM
By RAW, that doesn't work (Dervish makes Scimitar a Light Weapon). If you want to make a TWF Power Attacker, you need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, -4, Unarmed TWFer, Natural Attacks or Reverent Blade (best out of the bunch - few extra feats, Two-Handed Power Attack for both ends, etc. but only works with Valenar Double Scimitar).Or Greatsword+Armor Spikes.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:11 PM
Or Greatsword+Armor Spikes.

Meh, only one side can PA so the secondary attacks and TWF feats are rather wasted. Two-Handed+US I'll give you though.

Telonius
2008-11-24, 01:16 PM
By RAW, that doesn't work (Dervish makes Scimitar a Light Weapon). If you want to make a TWF Power Attacker, you need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, -4, Unarmed TWFer, Natural Attacks or Reverent Blade (best out of the bunch - few extra feats, Two-Handed Power Attack for both ends, etc. but only works with Valenar Double Scimitar). In fact, X 5/Dervish 10/Reverent Blade 5 is amazing for melee damage. Although ToB makes everything better, of course. Dervish 7/Reverent Blade 5/X 8 is better.

Hm, that's weird. Wouldn't have thought it would be treated as such when it's not beneficial. Still, you could pick up any other one-handed slashing weapon, and use the Tempest's Two-Weapon Versatility ability to give it the same bonuses as the Scimitar.

Unfortunately I don't own ToB, so I can't include anything from there in any of my builds. But hey, Christmas is coming. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:26 PM
Heh, ToB is a treasure trove for TWF. Tiger Claw gives you Two-Weapon Pounce on low levels, true Pounce + extra attacks/damage on higher levels along with a variety of assault styles instead of being stuck with just one. And Stormguard Warrior. Man, that feat has the potential to kick ass (you need a large number of attacks to make use of it though, so it's natural for TWF, and you need mobility to get full attacks against the same target two turns in a row, for which either ToB or Dervish will do).

Telonius
2008-11-24, 01:52 PM
Anyway, I'd probably prefer to keep Power Attack in the build regardless, because of Resounding Blow. Though if there's a better feat than that somewhere (and I'd be very surprised if there weren't), I'd probably rearrange the stats, since STR 13 would no longer be necessary.

mangosta71
2008-11-24, 03:26 PM
I notice that you put d6s for damage. Aren't scimitars d8s?

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 03:31 PM
Nope, D6s, but have better critical range than short swords or Straightblades or cutlasses (one handed not light though)

MustacheFart
2008-11-24, 06:42 PM
The best thing is to ad an effect to the stikes made with the AOOs.

Something like Three Mountains (CWar) , Staggering Critical (Drow of The Underdark) or Staggering Blow (DMCompendium).

Isn't staggering blow for unarmed strikes?

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-25, 03:09 AM
No it's a feat from dragon magazine compendium. If you crit with unarmed or bludgeoning weapon, the enemy muast save (Str based) or be stunned 1 round.

Check, maybe I'm wrong.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-25, 10:57 AM
Hell, if we're bringing ToB into it, then TWF is entirely possible

Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master

Best thing is, you can TWF unarmed, particularly with the Unarmed Swordsage variant. Then you pick up Snap Kick for an additional attack.

Now here's the nasty part: use Assassin's Stance to get 2d6 sneak attack on all of those attacks, and Shadow Blade to add Dex to damage.

And as to how you get there, it's simple: Pouncing Strike (full attack on charge), then of course Rabid Mongoose for extra attacks. And if that doesn't drop it, Time Stands Still next turn boosted with Rabid Mongoose.

Of course, you can easily stand one round, even with a melee monster, by simply switching to Shifting Defense stance before the end of your turn. Then, when he tries to attack you, counter with Fool's Strike (which may well kill him), then shift out of his reach, denying him his full attack progression.

With ToB, Dervish isn't needed anymore, a Swordsage does all that and more, with 2d10 damage with their unarmed attacks, can apply precision-based damage to all of their attacks, and can survive being toe-to-toe with even the worst melee monster.