Tsukiko's schools

[The Minx]

Looking through the OOTS Wiki (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Tsukiko), I noticed something interesting: Tsukiko has used spells of almost every school (all except Abjuration and Divination, in fact). Since every mage must bar two schools unless they specialize in Divination that led me to wonder whether we have enough information to figure this out. [EDIT: yea, so: that should be "every wizard who chooses to specialize]

She might be supplementing her barred schools with domain spells and/or cleric spells, or she might be a non-specialist wizard.

So far her spells are:

Inflict Light Wounds [EDIT: whoops, that's Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds.]
(cleric only)

Fly: transmutation.
Might be Wizard or Travel 3

Shout: evocation
MUST be Wizard 4

Animate Dead: necromancy
Might be Wizard 4, Cleric 3 or Death 4

Teleport: conjuration
Might be Wizard 5 or Travel 5
Note: has black magic aura suggesting it's a Wizard spell.

Dominate Person: enchantment
MUST be Wizard 5

Invisibility: illusion
Might be Wizard 2 or Trickery 2
Note: has black magic aura suggesting it's a Wizard spell.

Fireball & Lightning Bolt: evocation
Both MUST be Wizard 3

Various Orb spells
I don't have these on hand, sorry.


So:
She must at least have the schools of Evocation and Enchantment.
She probably has the schools of Illusion and Conjuration, based on the magic aura colors.
I imagine that if she is a specialist, she specializes in Necromancy (just a hunch :smallwink:). At least I can't see her barring it, not with her character concept.

This leaves Transmutation, Abjuration and Divination.

She might be using the Domain of Travel for the Fly spell, and she cannot bar Divination (unless the Giant has made an exception for her). IF the fly spell is not a cleric spell, that means she is a non-specialist.


Have I missed anything?

[spectralphoenix]

The Orb spells are sor/wiz only Conjuration spells. I really can't see Tsukiko with the Travel domain. I'm pretty sure she's a generalist wizard.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was assuming she barred Necromancy and Abjuration and that she was using Cleric slots for creating Undead creatures. Alternatively, she coulkd just be a Generalist, but I think there are problems with that based on how many spells she's used (that is a good analysis on the whole:smallsmile:).

[Hydro Globus]

"I am a mystic theurge, I have more spells then you have hit points!"

[The Minx]

I was assuming she barred Necromancy and Abjuration and that she was using Cleric slots for creating Undead creatures. Alternatively, she coulkd just be a Generalist, but I think there are problems with that based on how many spells she's used (that is a good analysis on the whole:smallsmile:).

Barring Necromancy and Abjuration works with what we've got (and since the best part of Abjuration is Dispel Magic and she gets that from her Cleric levels, it makes sense to bar it). It would be pretty ironic of her to bar Necromancy, though I guess it might be possible.

Re: the number of spells, she seems to be of a high level, so that could make up for it.

At least we've narrowed it down to these two options. :smallsmile:

[Hydro Globus]

If it makes sense to bar abjuration "since her cleric levels will cover it", the same can be argued with Necromancy, not?

Though I prefer to think Tsukiko is generalist.

[spectralphoenix]

There is a very tangible advantage to Tsukiko not barring Necromancy. Animate Dead allows you to control a maximum of four times your caster level HD of undead. If she can cast it as both a wizard spell and a cleric spell, she doubles the number of skeletons and zombies she can have (since casting it as a cleric uses her cleric CL and casting it as a wizard uses her wizard CL.)

[Chronos]

Orb of Electricity is a conjuration spell in 3.5, but that's not what she used: She used Electric Orb. Electric Orb doesn't show up in 3.5, but was in one of the 3.0 books as an Evocation spell. Haley's comments about "What kind of unbalanced spells is she using?" is consistent with Tsukiko getting a 3.0 spell houseruled in, and Tsukiko herself says that she researched "a few evocation spells with attack rolls instead of saves".

[SPoD]

Alternatively, she coulkd just be a Generalist, but I think there are problems with that based on how many spells she's used (that is a good analysis on the whole:smallsmile:).

Since we don't know her level or her Intelligence score, there's no way we could rule out being a generalist based on the number of spells cast. And that's not even counting preparing lower-level spells in higher-level slots, or a ring of wizardry or a pearl of power or mage's lucubration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesLucubration.htm) or...

Not to mention that we've never seen Tsukiko cast more than 8-10 spells of various levels in a single day anyway.

So there's no reason to think she's not simply a generalist, which solves the problem easily.

[David Argall]

She is generalist mage. Specialist is a good idea only at the low levels when the wizard can't cast much. When you get up a few levels, you find each school has great tricks like...

Necro-Command Undead = total control of that uber zombie with more HD than your party has hp. Just an absolute breaking of what can be a really tough encounter.
You don't get than many chances to use it, so it goes on a scroll usually, but when you get that chance, you are so glad you didn't prohibit necromancy.

[Kish]

Since every mage must bar two schools unless they specialize in Divination
This phrasing implies you think every wizard is a specialist. (And, for that matter, that every mage is a wizard.) Later in your post you talk about her possibly being a non-specialist, but this part just makes me go "huh"?

[pswbr]

really, what kind of wizard would choose to never be able to learn many good spells (every school have those) just to get some ****ty bonuses and one (just one) spell of each level?
I say none. since wizards are very logical and intteligent beings, they generally figure that being a specialist wizard is a waste. One or another could be for background stuff, but thinking logically (as most wizards do), there is no great benefit into becoming a specialist.

IMO, if you want to sacrifice spells for spell slots, be a sorcerer.

[Hydro Globus]

IMO, if you want to sacrifice spells for spell slots, be a sorcerer.

Well put.

However, :vaarsuvius: fans will now tear you apart (h** being an invoker)...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

really, what kind of wizard would choose to never be able to learn many good spells (every school have those) just to get some ****ty bonuses and one (just one) spell of each level?
I say none. since wizards are very logical and intteligent beings, they generally figure that being a specialist wizard is a waste. One or another could be for background stuff, but thinking logically (as most wizards do), there is no great benefit into becoming a specialist.

IMO, if you want to sacrifice spells for spell slots, be a sorcerer.The reasoning is that the extra slot makes up for it. If you can come up with a method of covering what you lose(Orbs replacing Evocation and a Cleric ally replacing Abjuration) the bonus slot is very valuable(+33-50% to your highest spell level). Specializing lets you spend a spell of your highest level in every combat, and paradoxically gives you more options to choose from during combat(due to the greater number of spells prepared), though they are drawn from a slightly more limited pool.

[The Minx]

This phrasing implies you think every wizard is a specialist. (And, for that matter, that every mage is a wizard.) Later in your post you talk about her possibly being a non-specialist, but this part just makes me go "huh"?

Er, I was speaking of how many schools had to be given up for specialization at that point: for that, everyone has to give up two schools except Diviners. Obviously they can choose not to specialize (as I mentioned later).

And yea, Sorcerers are mages too, though Tsukiko is not a Sorceress. I guess I could have phrased it better (but I think people got it). :smallsmile:

[mikeejimbo]

I think in Dragonlance you have to be a specialist.

This has been my useless comment for the day. Thank you for your time.

[Kinneus]

And yea, Sorcerers are mages too, though Tsukiko is not a Sorceress.
Hmm... do we have any proof of that? Mystic Theurges can be Sorcerers too, can't they?
(Honest question; I don't play much D&D).

[mikeejimbo]

Hmm... do we have any proof of that? Mystic Theurges can be Sorcerers too, can't they?
(Honest question; I don't play much D&D).

Actually, that's a good point. The only requirements that I remember involve having levels in one arcane spellcasting class and one divine. (Technically, the ability to cast 3rd level arcane and 3rd level divine spells). Theoretically, a Wizard/Archivist would qualify which sounds awesome. (Until you remember that Mystic Theurges are sup-optimal and a TRUE Munchkin shies away from them.)

[vegetalss4]

Hmm... do we have any proof of that? Mystic Theurges can be Sorcerers too, can't they?


yes they can. and as a sorcerer she would even get a (small) synergy with her charisma, for both spells, and rebuking

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm... do we have any proof of that? Mystic Theurges can be Sorcerers too, can't they?
(Honest question; I don't play much D&D).

Yes, they can, but Tsukiko isn't one based on the comments she made about learning new spells when she needed to use them against Haley. Sorcerers can only do that when they gain a level (and even then, only barely); Wizards can do that simply by getting some scrolls. Wanna bet Azure City has a big library?


She is generalist mage. Specialist is a good idea only at the low levels when the wizard can't cast much. When you get up a few levels, you find each school has great tricks like...
In a word, no. From a fluff point of view, specializing (and not using certain schools) is very appropriate for certain characters. From a crunch point of view, getting more spells-per-day from your highest spell level is highly effective. While every school has its tricks, some of those are lame (evocation) or redundant (will save-or-sucks in illusion/enchantment/n
ecromancy). You can drop three schools and still be a highly effective wizard.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sorc/FS is an awesome MT in raw # of spell terms(literally more than you have HP with the right build), though you end up with nearly the worst possible spells to still be able to call yourself a caster.

[Hydro Globus]

Hmm... do we have any proof of that? Mystic Theurges can be Sorcerers too, can't they?
(Honest question; I don't play much D&D).

She once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) said she prepared some attack roll spells that time (because of Haley's Evasion), and sorcerers don't prepare spells. Also, she used the "Quickened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html)" metamagic feat on an arcane spell, and sorcerers or bards can't do that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

She once said she prepared some attack roll spells that time (because of Haley's Evasion), and sorcerers don't prepare spells. Also, she used the "Quickened" metamagic feat and sorcerers or bards can't do that.Correct, though she could have been talking about Cleric slots and just cast the Orb spells spontaneously, as some Sorc builds can use Quicken(though yes, she is almost definitely a Wiz/Cleric).

[Raging Gene Ray]

(Until you remember that Mystic Theurges are sup-optimal and a TRUE Munchkin shies away from them.)

There is one very optimal way to use the Mystic Theurge class: Take one level in it, and then start taking levels in another Prestige Class that stacks for spellcasting in another Arcane spellcasting class. Declare that other class to be Mystic Theurge, so by extension, it should also raise your Divine casting.

This turns any spellcasting Prestige Class into a Mystic Theurge, only better.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Tsukiko could take any made up Prestige Class to give her whatever powers Rich feels like it. I mean, he came up with that explanation on how Divinations wouldn't work on Kubota.

[Hydro Globus]

I thought of it once... then decided it most probably doesn't work.

It does?!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I thought of it once... then decided it most probably doesn't work.

It does?!It appears to, however, remember that in exchange for that you are still losing 3 levels of spellcasting. At 20th it doesn't matter, but up until 19th those lost 3 levels will hurt more than the Cleric casting will help. There's a reason why the only MT builds that are considered optimal use tricks to lose almost no casting(Precocious Apprentice, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord).

[hamishspence]

there is a Sorcerer feat that enables you to prepare spells know ahead of time, like a wizard. In Complete arcane (and originally, FRCS)

More likely, she's a wizard though.

[RebelRogue]

there is a Sorcerer feat that enables you to prepare spells know ahead of time, like a wizard. In Complete arcane (and originally, FRCS)

More likely, she's a wizard though.
Arcane Preparation, IIRC.

And, totally offtopic:

bland dig ikke i dragers afærer, for du er sprød og smager godt med ketchup
Godt at se andre danskere herinde :smallbiggrin:

[whitelaughter]

It would be pretty ironic of her to bar Necromancy, though I guess it might be possible.

No, because she is controlling the wights. She can't do that by Rebuking: Mystic Theurge doesn't help Rebuking so she could only use her raw Cleric level - she'd need to be an 8th level cleric, rather than 3rd, which is the most effective level to stop at.

That said, I can understand the temptation: if she had Necromancy as barred, it would explain why she wasn't just hitting Haley with Enervation spells. But Enervation is the most efficient way to create a wight, so she'd want that anyway.

[whitelaughter]

start taking levels in another Prestige Class that stacks for spellcasting in another Arcane spellcasting class. Declare that other class to be Mystic Theurge, so by extension, it should also raise your Divine casting.
Any DM dumb enough to allow that deserves to be steam rolled: so be sure to have Magic Domain and use a Magic Staff (caster level with the staff is increasing by 3 for every two levels) and go geomancer so you can cut and splice your spells.

[The Minx]

No, because she is controlling the wights. She can't do that by Rebuking: Mystic Theurge doesn't help Rebuking so she could only use her raw Cleric level - she'd need to be an 8th level cleric, rather than 3rd, which is the most effective level to stop at.

That said, I can understand the temptation: if she had Necromancy as barred, it would explain why she wasn't just hitting Haley with Enervation spells. But Enervation is the most efficient way to create a wight, so she'd want that anyway.

Create Undead is also a Cleric spell. She could be using a variant of the spell which allows for wights rather than the ones listed in the SRD. Still, I agree that she probably has Necromancy.

The Enervation in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) does not create Wights. Are you using some other variant? :smallconfused:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Enervation in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) does not create Wights. Are you using some other variant? :smallconfused:Anyone slain by negative levels rises as the spawn of whatever killed them. If it's not a monster, they rise as a Wight.

[hamishspence]

yes- it says that under Energy Drain in DMG. The spell is not exempt.

[The Minx]

Anyone slain by negative levels rises as the spawn of whatever killed them. If it's not a monster, they rise as a Wight.

Thanks. I just suffered a brain-freeze there. :smallredface:

[David Argall]

There is one very optimal way to use the Mystic Theurge class: Take one level in it, and then start taking levels in another Prestige Class that stacks for spellcasting in another Arcane spellcasting class. Declare that other class to be Mystic Theurge, so by extension, it should also raise your Divine casting.

This turns any spellcasting Prestige Class into a Mystic Theurge, only better.

The rules lawyers jumped on this years back, and this idea was rejected. These things do not stack. [I seem to recall the official logic was that the Mystic Theurge is not a spell casting class. It merely augments your spellcasting classes. The more basic logic was "No, we are not going to give you a freebie."]

[Hydro Globus]

But it is a spellcasting class... Or is the caster level of a clr3/wiz3/MT10 character 6??

But I can't argue with the more basic logic. :)

[mikeejimbo]

There is one very optimal way to use the Mystic Theurge class: Take one level in it, and then start taking levels in another Prestige Class that stacks for spellcasting in another Arcane spellcasting class. Declare that other class to be Mystic Theurge, so by extension, it should also raise your Divine casting.

This turns any spellcasting Prestige Class into a Mystic Theurge, only better.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Tsukiko could take any made up Prestige Class to give her whatever powers Rich feels like it. I mean, he came up with that explanation on how Divinations wouldn't work on Kubota.

I feel that most DMs wouldn't allow that, though. They'd tell me I'd have to choose Wizard.


It appears to, however, remember that in exchange for that you are still losing 3 levels of spellcasting. At 20th it doesn't matter, but up until 19th those lost 3 levels will hurt more than the Cleric casting will help. There's a reason why the only MT builds that are considered optimal use tricks to lose almost no casting(Precocious Apprentice, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord).

Also, how do Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord help? I'm a bit rusty on those.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I feel that most DMs wouldn't allow that, though. They'd tell me I'd have to choose Wizard.


That's why you either 1) hope you have a lenient DM or 2) don't mention it and hope the DM doesn't question anything.

Like I said, the real point is that Tsukiko could very easily have pulled that stuff and, when she mentions it, someone will say "I don't think you can do that..." "Well obviously I can, because I did!"

As for Sublime Chord (although that's really a question for the d20 boards), it doesn't stack with other arcane classes...rather, it has its own casting progression that starts you off with 4th level spells. If you took Mystic Theurge after that, I guess there's some sort of number crunching you could do that would let you choose that as your arcane class and effectively not lose too much arcane power in exchange for divine.

[mikeejimbo]

That's why you either 1) hope you have a lenient DM or 2) don't mention it and hope the DM doesn't question anything.

Like I said, the real point is that Tsukiko could very easily have pulled that stuff and, when she mentions it, someone will say "I don't think you can do that..." "Well obviously I can, because I did!"

Haha, that's actually an excellent point. It does sound like a good idea at first, but then again so does a turducken and it's probably not good for your health.

[spectralphoenix]

But it is a spellcasting class... Or is the caster level of a clr3/wiz3/MT10 character 6??

But I can't argue with the more basic logic. :)

Mystic Theurge does not have a spell list, and there are no Mystic Theurge spells. They just have a class ability that increases your caster level and spells/day in another class.

Also, proposing this would probably make the rest of your group throw things at you.

[Hydro Globus]

So? Archmage doesn't have a spell list or nearly any PrCs don't have either. They too aren't spellcasting classes?

Also, I am cool with people throwing things at me on a D&D session. It will most likely be food :)

(Or dice :()

[Aquillion]

Also, how do Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord help? I'm a bit rusty on those.They have a fast rate of advancement (so ten levels in Ur-Priest will net you the casting of a level 20 character.) Sublime Chord is a bit different -- it starts you gaining spells as if you were a tenth level caster when you start. Which would be a bit odd, because if you used it like this you'd never get lower-level spells. It also isn't quite as strong as a wizard or sorcerer anyway -- you get fewer spells, though you do get 9th level casting. (And if you're a real Sublime Chord, you get other things to make up for it, though obviously those aren't advanced by Mystic Theurge.)

Now, Beholder Mage is a straightforward double-rate advancement arcane caster class. But you, ah, you have to be a beholder, unless you can come up with some way to finesse the entry requirements (and it's not so easy -- you have to give up the power of one of your eyes for each level of spells you gain. Difficult when you're not really a beholder.)


So? Archmage doesn't have a spell list or nearly any PrCs don't have either. They too aren't spellcasting classes?Well, you wouldn't take another PRC and try to 'continue archmage', no. You'd continue the base spellcasting class that you took before it.

[spectralphoenix]

So? Archmage doesn't have a spell list or nearly any PrCs don't have either. They too aren't spellcasting classes?

Also, I am cool with people throwing things at me on a D&D session. It will most likely be food :)

(Or dice :()

Is there an Archmage spell progression? No. They add to the spellcasting progression of another class, such as wizard or sorceror.