Supernatural Suckage

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ok, so I'm a long-time, hardcore fan of the show Supernatural and this season started amazingly... and lasted for maybe a few episodes. Now I'm wondering if I'm even going to be continuing much longer.

First off, you got the introduction of angels. This is super ticking me off. They are portraying them much as D&D does, cold, calculating smiters of anything not of them. Contemptuous and disgusted of mankind despite the fact their boss specifically created us. Basically fiends with the good descriptor.

Y'know, I'm all for bad assing them a bit more than Roma Downey, but this is totally going the opposite way. They're making God out to be some unknowable figure that even angels aren't allowed to see who gives out orders to kill, torture, maim and destroy. A heartless ultimate power who demands continuous, mindless obedience or death.

Then you have the 'fall from grace'. Oh, you mean you didn't know 'grace' is a tangible object that can be kept hanging around your neck? You can lose it, as is mentioned, like a kidney. It's so corny it makes my teeth ache. Just some juice that angels are dipped in.

In fact, it really seems to be the only thing different than demons. Demons are entropy, angels are extropy. So in other words, there is no good and evil, just physics. We're back to the age old debate that negative energy = bad, positive energy = good.

Y'know, they could have gone a completely different route and been so much cooler. Sam goes closer to the dark side so that the angels have a reason to be against him. They then have to start performing the evil mojo, hex bags and all that to thwart the angels. Or not even thwart, but to just hide in the shadows. Maybe make Dean a bit more vicious because of his time in Hell, more likely to go overboard when he has to attack, extra edge to his fighting as he's been forced to torture others for a decade down there. It'd be some delicious irony and it'd do just as well to continue the darkness of the series and add in some drama as Dean tries to cling to his decent side. However, that then attracts the demons, etc.

But no, you have to make angels just another bad guy. Actually, in many ways they are even worse than demons as they try to make excuses and think they are justified. They do what they know is wrong while demons have no concept of 'wrong'. Just power and self gratification.

Like so much of what's coming out of late it's no longer about raising others up and making heroes, but bringing everything down to the nitty gritty level. 'Look, they aren't so much better than me, Ha! I feel better about myself now!'

Agonizing.

[ArlEammon]

Ok, so I'm a long-time, hardcore fan of the show Supernatural and this season started amazingly... and lasted for maybe a few episodes. Now I'm wondering if I'm even going to be continuing much longer.

First off, you got the introduction of angels. This is super ticking me off. They are portraying them much as D&D does, cold, calculating smiters of anything not of them. Contemptuous and disgusted of mankind despite the fact their boss specifically created us. Basically fiends with the good descriptor.

Y'know, I'm all for bad assing them a bit more than Roma Downey, but this is totally going the opposite way. They're making God out to be some unknowable figure that even angels aren't allowed to see who gives out orders to kill, torture, maim and destroy. A heartless ultimate power who demands continuous, mindless obedience or death.

Then you have the 'fall from grace'. Oh, you mean you didn't know 'grace' is a tangible object that can be kept hanging around your neck? You can lose it, as is mentioned, like a kidney. It's so corny it makes my teeth ache. Just some juice that angels are dipped in.

In fact, it really seems to be the only thing different than demons. Demons are entropy, angels are extropy. So in other words, there is no good and evil, just physics. We're back to the age old debate that negative energy = bad, positive energy = good.

Y'know, they could have gone a completely different route and been so much cooler. Sam goes closer to the dark side so that the angels have a reason to be against him. They then have to start performing the evil mojo, hex bags and all that to thwart the angels. Or not even thwart, but to just hide in the shadows. Maybe make Dean a bit more vicious because of his time in Hell, more likely to go overboard when he has to attack, extra edge to his fighting as he's been forced to torture others for a decade down there. It'd be some delicious irony and it'd do just as well to continue the darkness of the series and add in some drama as Dean tries to cling to his decent side. However, that then attracts the demons, etc.

But no, you have to make angels just another bad guy. Actually, in many ways they are even worse than demons as they try to make excuses and think they are justified. They do what they know is wrong while demons have no concept of 'wrong'. Just power.

Like so much of what's coming out of late it's no longer about rising others up and making folks heroes, but bringing everything down to the nitty gritty level.

Agonizing.


Yes. The Persona angle on morality might have been interesting in the 80's or early 90's, but now my clicheometer is about to break from all the excess corniness.

[Red Sock]

Yeah, I'm starting to dislike it it. Seriously, who doesn't see the whole "god doesn't really exist but is a conspiracy started by the head angels" thing coming? And if I remember the story of Lucifer correctly, he disagreed with god originally because he considered himself to be vastly superior to the humans, and so did some other angels who went to Lucifer's side. Now assuming that I remember this correctly, how the hell is Uriel an angel? Seriously, he should be a demon or something. Or at least he should be wandering the world looking for his angelic mojo.

Although despite all the failings of how the angels are depicted, "getting a slice of angel food cake" has got to be the best euphemism for sex that I have ever heard.

[zeratul]

The Angels aren't portrayed as bad guys, I mean the second one is, but the first angel we're introduced to isn't portrayed as bad at all, nor is the third portrayed as being bad. It seems inevitable however due to your objections seeming religious in nature that this would turn into a religious thing so maybe you should focus on other aspects of the show you dislike in this season other than the god/angels stuff?

[Red Sock]

The Angels aren't portrayed as bad guys, I mean the second one is, but the first angel we're introduced to isn't portrayed as bad at all, nor is the third portrayed as being bad. It seems inevitable however due to your objections seeming religious in nature that this would turn into a religious thing so maybe you should focus on other aspects of the show you dislike in this season other than the god/angels stuff?

I think the point is that the god/angels stuff is the what he dislikes most, and if we're careful this won't drag into too much of a religious discussion.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, I'm starting to dislike it it. Seriously, who doesn't see the whole "god doesn't really exist but is a conspiracy started by the head angels" thing coming? And if I remember the story of Lucifer correctly, he disagreed with god originally because he considered himself to be vastly superior to the humans.
I'd like to go into this but don't want the thread locked. But to nutshell it, he thought he was better than anything, not just humans, but also his creator, etc.


Although despite all the failings of how the angels are depicted, "getting a slice of angel food cake" has got to be the best euphemism for sex that I have ever heard.
Ok... yeah, I about snorted milk with that one. Some of the best quips have come out of this season.


The Angels aren't portrayed as bad guys, I mean the second one is, but the first angel we're introduced to isn't portrayed as bad at all, nor is the third portrayed as being bad.
I dunno, the whole, 'I brought you out of hell, I can put you back' is pretty damned evil. Like literally. It's the worst thing you could possibly do to someone.

If they'd kept him like they did in the first couple episodes, hard but fair, that'd have been awesome. But he was willing to level a whole city, killing thousands. That, my friend, is NOT good.

Sam shows respect and humility to them and they look at him like he's a cockroach that just crawled out of their pasta.


It seems inevitable however due to your objections seeming religious in nature that this would turn into a religious thing so maybe you should focus on other aspects of the show you dislike in this season other than the god/angels stuff?
Umm... that is ALL that's going on in this season. And though I do have personal religious objections, angels are not supposed to be evil. By any means. I'll complain about that then, how they are altering every single aspect of any angel lore from any source.

They bring up good and evil. They say demons are evil, and they do evil things. They bring in angels... and they do evil things to. Just by a non-religious aspect of decency they are far into the left field on the other side.

[zeratul]

I dunno, the whole, 'I brought you out of hell, I can put you back' is pretty damned evil. Like literally. It's the worst thing you could possibly do to someone.

If they'd kept him like they did in the first couple episodes, hard but fair, that'd have been awesome. But he was willing to level a whole city, killing thousands. That, my friend, is NOT good.


Well as to the first one and in general, the angels are currently supposedly suffering heavey casualties not to mention the seals breaking and stuff so it seems that they would have a reason to be pissy, so saying something like "i brought you out of hell, I can put you back" to dean would be a verry efficient way of getting him to shut up and get to work.

Also with the city didn;t he later in the episode tell Dean that it was a test and that they weren;t supposed to let them level the city? :smallconfused:

[Red Sock]

Well as to the first one and in general, the angels are currently supposedly suffering heavey casualties not to mention the seals breaking and stuff so it seems that they would have a reason to be pissy, so saying something like "i brought you out of hell, I can put you back" to dean would be a verry efficient way of getting him to shut up and get to work.

Also with the city didn;t he later in the episode tell Dean that it was a test and that they weren;t supposed to let them level the city? :smallconfused:

True, but Uriel suggested disobeying their orders and actually leveling the city. And if Dean had agreed, then they would have to do it to fulfill their orders. So, city leveling=angels doing bad stuff.

[zeratul]

True, but Uriel suggested disobeying their orders and actually leveling the city. And if Dean had agreed, then they would have to do it to fulfill their orders. So, city leveling=angels doing bad stuff.

Yes but the only angel really doing the bad stuff is Uriel, how do we know Uriel won't end up falling and becoming a demon or something? Seems like he's headed that way.

[Red Sock]

Yes but the only angel really doing the bad stuff is Uriel, how do we know Uriel won't end up falling and becoming a demon or something? Seems like he's headed that way.

The thing is, from what Ms. Angel Food Cake implied, many angels have to do "morally questionable" stuff without question. After all, Castiel said that he sometimes questioned his orders.

[zeratul]

Well as I said before though this isn't necessarily what they're implying angels usually do. This is war time for them to a gigantic extent, thus they would probably be forced to do things they would not normally do.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And if I remember the story of Lucifer correctly, he disagreed with god originally because he considered himself to be vastly superior to the humans, and so did some other angels who went to Lucifer's side.

That's an Islamic version of Satain (Ifrit to be more acurate), whether it's original or not is a differant matter.

[Red Sock]

That's an Islamic version of Satain (Ifrit to be more acurate), whether it's original or not is a differant matter.

They taught me Islamic lore in sunday school when I was a kid? Weird.

[Athaniar]

That's an Islamic version of Satain (Ifrit to be more acurate), whether it's original or not is a differant matter.

Don't you mean Iblis?

[chiasaur11]

Well as I said before though this isn't necessarily what they're implying angels usually do. This is war time for them to a gigantic extent, thus they would probably be forced to do things they would not normally do.

Well, in most fiction, it's always wartime for angels. Not a good excuse for bad behavior.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That's an Islamic version of Satain (Ifrit to be more acurate), whether it's original or not is a differant matter.It's all based on an interpretation of Old Testament/Hebrew Prophet lore, so it's common to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Now, this interpretation is questioned by modern theologians from all three religions, but since Milton based Paradise Lost on it, it's going to remain pretty popular.

[Deathslayer7]

this thread is heading to locksville.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Don't you mean Iblis?

That as well.

[Deathslayer7]

My take on it. This episode wasn't all that great. Except for the angel food cake part. That was awesome.

I am also a fan, but I am still going to watch next episode. I hope they do something different then contuning on with the angels. Somehow i doubt it though. But meh, I will still watch it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

this thread is heading to locksville.Yeah, I realize I was a little out of line, but I'm trying to be neutral and informative. Let's stick to Supernatural angels. And possibly Paradise Lost angels for comparison.

[SurlySeraph]

Don't you mean Iblis?

Just another name for the same character/being. Like Shaitan.

[JMobius]

I have a friend who frequently pressures me to start watching the show. Silly depictions of heaven and hell were what I was afraid of. Now I know not to bother. :smallannoyed:

[Red Sock]

I have a friend who frequently pressures me to start watching the show. Silly depictions of heaven and hell were what I was afraid of. Now I know not to bother. :smallannoyed:

You do realize that the silly depictions are just a part of ONE season? Theres a good 3 seasons before this for you to watch.

[zeratul]

And every once in a while they go off of the main plot and do a good old first season style monster episode. Those are still my favorite ones.

[JMobius]

You do realize that the silly depictions are just a part of ONE season? Theres a good 3 seasons before this for you to watch.

Well, that may be the case, and I may pick it up eventually. I think it would be kind of disheartening to start given foreknowledge that the fundamental mythos is going to get so silly, though.

[Red Sock]

Well, that may be the case, and I may pick it up eventually. I think it would be kind of disheartening to start given foreknowledge that the fundamental mythos is going to get so silly, though.

For all we know the show will pick up. Every form of entertainment has its low points. And to add on to the plain old monster episodes, there are the episodes that are just pure comedic gold. One of these that appeared recently had an suicidal teddy bear.

[JMobius]

For all we know the show will pick up. Every form of entertainment has its low points. And to add on to the plain old monster episodes, there are the episodes that are just pure comedic gold. One of these that appeared recently had an suicidal teddy bear.

Does the show regularly not take itself seriously like that? 0_o

[Red Sock]

Does the show regularly not take itself seriously like that? 0_o

No, it's an occasional thing. Since a lot of the show is dark and gritty, sometimes the script writers decide to take a break from it all for an episode and give you something funny. So don't worry about it showing up too often.

[zeratul]

Well every episode has at least a little of the humor aspect, and it's fairly balanced with the dark grittiness, some more than others, it alters episode from episode. Then you'll have some episodes that are really dark and gritty ands some that are really funny.

[Red Sock]

Well every episode has at least a little of the humor aspect, and it's fairly balanced with the dark grittiness, some more than others, it alters episode from episode. Then you'll have some episodes that are really dark and gritty ands some that are really funny.

Didn't we once have a depressing episode where a man was turning into a monster against his will? His wife ended up leaving him, and he was eventually killed. It was sad. And then the next episode was a funny one where Dean turns into an absolute coward and is afraid to go into a place because it "looks scary"?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Just another name for the same character/being. Like Shaitan.

Well, Shaitan is just Satan spelt differantly.

[Deathslayer7]

For all we know the show will pick up. Every form of entertainment has its low points. And to add on to the plain old monster episodes, there are the episodes that are just pure comedic gold. One of these that appeared recently had an suicidal teddy bear.

That was hilarious. Also what they stole from the store was funny too. Alcohol and pron. :smallbiggrin:


Didn't we once have a depressing episode where a man was turning into a monster against his will? His wife ended up leaving him, and he was eventually killed. It was sad. And then the next episode was a funny one where Dean turns into an absolute coward and is afraid to go into a place because it "looks scary"?

Yup. Both of those happened.

[Red Sock]

That was hilarious. Also what they stole from the store was funny too. Alcohol and pron. :smallbiggrin:

Don't forget the best false identities they've EVER used. Teddy bear doctors.

[FoE]

That was hilarious. Also what they stole from the store was funny too. Alcohol and porn. :smallbiggrin:

His attempt at suicide was what got me.

"WHHHHHHHHYYYY?!"

I disagree with Vorpal Tribble on this one. The depiction of angels is appropriate for the theme of the show and pretty close to the Christian version, as well. Angels are warriors, not protectors.


But no, you have to make angels just another bad guy.

Ummm, angels are not 'good.' They are living engines of destruction created by God to enforce his will.

[Closet_Skeleton]

His attempt at suicide was what got me.

"WHHHHHHHHYYYY?!"

I disagree with Vorpal Tribble on this one. The depiction of angels is appropriate for the theme of the show and pretty close to the Christian version, as well. Angels are warriors, not protectors.



Ummm, angels are not 'good.' They are living engines of destruction created by God to enforce his will.

Not really. St. Michael is a warrior but most angels just act as celestial postmen.

[Quincunx]

It's all based on an interpretation of Old Testament/Hebrew Prophet lore, so it's common to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Now, this interpretation is questioned by modern theologians from all three religions, but since Milton based Paradise Lost on it, it's going to remain pretty popular.


this thread is heading to locksville.

For one brief, shining moment, I thought that mentioning tedious poetry was now a lockable offense. Please carry on with your discussion, you horrible destroyers of hope *grumble, grumble*. . .

[Deathslayer7]

For one brief, shining moment, I thought that mentioning tedious poetry was now a lockable offense. Please carry on with your discussion, you horrible destroyers of hope *grumble, grumble*. . .

it was heading there, but came back.

as for the teddy bear part. That made me laugh as well. :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

I dunno, the whole, 'I brought you out of hell, I can put you back' is pretty damned evil. Like literally. It's the worst thing you could possibly do to someone.Only if you say that using the Intimidation skill in D&D is Evil :smallconfused:

If they'd kept him like they did in the first couple episodes, hard but fair, that'd have been awesome. But he was willing to level a whole city, killing thousands. That, my friend, is NOT good.Counter to this contains spoilers, so I'll hide it for anyone who hasn't seen this episode yet.The angels were commanded by God to tell them that they were going to level the city. Uriel (what was his name, was it?) obviously thought that was what they should do, but, as (Uh... the other angel, forget his name) said, their "true orders" were to do whatever they were told once this information was passed on. Now, considering what the first angel knew about these two, much less what God knows, do you really think that there was any expectation that they'd say "O rly? Huh, well, you do that. Have fun. We'll be over here now..."?

Sam shows respect and humility to them and they look at him like he's a cockroach that just crawled out of their pasta.That annoys me too, but considering the back-in-time episode and what that revealed, specifically that noone actually knows what the Yellow-eyed Demon's actual ultimate goal was, and that so far as anyone knows Sam's still his unwitting tool, it's not entirely unreasonable for them to be distrustful.

They bring up good and evil. They say demons are evil, and they do evil things. They bring in angels... and they do evil things to. Just by a non-religious aspect of decency they are far into the left field on the other side.Some of the demons don't constantly do evil things, i.e. Ruby, that woman Dean was locked in a room with and, apparently, some of the angels don't constantly do good things, i.e. Uriel. The first angel is no more evil than the airmen who dropped the atom bombs on Japan. He's just doing what he's told - more than that, though, he himself admits that he questions what he's told, even if he doesn't act on it. I haven't seen the episode with this "third angel" yet, I think, but this conversation between Dean and the first makes me hopeful.
As for "leveling the city would be evil and therefore at odds with all angel-related literature", they were going to do it to attempt to prevent the breaking of a Seal and therefore the Apocalypse. Angels annhialated Sodom and Gemorrah (sp?) because the people were naughty. Don't really see the incompatibility :smallconfused:

I have a friend who frequently pressures me to start watching the show. Silly depictions of heaven and hell were what I was afraid of. Now I know not to bother. :smallannoyed:It's like X-Files, but with demons and ghosts instead of aliens and freaks. As such, I can see where you're coming from: I lost interest in X-Files when they lost the freak-hunting and focused completely on "aliums took mah sistah! D=", and I can see that Supernatural threatens to divulge from monster-hunting into "demonds threatenin' mah planet! D=". So far I think they're keeping up both the ongoing plot and the episodic adventure pretty well in balance, but it is a concern.

[llamamushroom]

I only have one problem with going down the Angels/Demons line - they're only using Abrahamic sources! They've previously mentioned oni (the Japanese demon from 1.04 that is crashing planes) and Hindu demons (the rakshasa in 2.01 I think), and yet they've so far only introduced Jewish (so far, no mention of the main guys from the other two) angels. I'd really like to see some kami or Deva, perhaps even boddhisattva.

On the boddisattva line, I'd really like to see an actual 'good' creature, perhaps Guanyin or Avalokiteshvara, both embodiments of mercy. They could pull a Stargate and have an "I'm insanely powerful, but I can't help you" moment.

EDIT: I sure used a lot of parentheses there, didn't I?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not really. St. Michael is a warrior but most angels just act as celestial postmen.Someone brought up Persona Angels earlier. I coincidentally just fused Michael in Persona 3 earlier today. He is a very, very good engine of God's destruction (and turns into an even better sword of God's destruction).

Yeah, I know, Persona 3 has sod-all to do with Shin Megami Tensei overall or even the earlier Persona games. I just wanted to marvel at that guy's stats. I mean, he's not even a top-tier fusion. Damn.

And later on, I can fuse him into Metatron. This promises to rock hard.

[Tichrondrius]

I was extremely worried about Supernatural turning into a 'lets all have faith, do what god says' type show since one episode when Dean seems to be going over... "Gods Will", I nearly blanched. Especially since they have had the great dynamic, with Sam the Christian and Dean the Agnostic... so I was terrified when they bough angels in. I was like, man, I hope angels are just demons who think they are doing gods will and etc... turns out, they aren't and are based on a different magic system, but I am very grateful they happen to be ***** and have been wanting the brothers to go up against them since they were introduced.

Not to say this season isn't a little weak... i'm just glad it didn't become Touched by an Angel.

[Iku Rex]

{Scrubbed}

[JMobius]

Uh... probably stepping way over bounds there Iku. Might consider scrubbing that.



It's like X-Files, but with demons and ghosts instead of aliens and freaks. As such, I can see where you're coming from: I lost interest in X-Files when they lost the freak-hunting and focused completely on "aliums took mah sistah! D=", and I can see that Supernatural threatens to divulge from monster-hunting into "demonds threatenin' mah planet! D=". So far I think they're keeping up both the ongoing plot and the episodic adventure pretty well in balance, but it is a concern.

I actually prefer serials, but I can deal with a dash of episodic content if its good. But, yeah, if the mythos is lousy, it sort of puts a damper on watching the whole thing.

I'm not sure how I feel about the apparent episode to episode admixture of deadly serious and utterly lighthearted, that seems... kind of bipolar. I guess I'll find out eventually.

[Serpentine]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait... That post went through? I thought the forum down ate it... Yay! :smallbiggrin:
Anyways, I think it's pretty realistic. Not every moment of life is riotous comedy, nor is it constantly tense and serious. Well, that's the within-episode mixture. The episode-to-episode change I think is mostly just for a change.
The excessive mockery of geeks and nerds bothers me... They always lose :smallfrown:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: It's a bit difficult to parse the fiction from the real world references here, but I think at this point there's sufficient real world religious commentary to require a lock.