Evolve or Die

[Evil DM Mark3]

I wonder, the significance of this password in relation to the old dude. It certainly does not seem like a password that the Paladins would have chosen.

[Linkavitch]

Well, yeah, Shojo wasn't a paladin. (though I wonder if he has some levels in Oracle or something, to have chosen that password when Belkar needs to at least appear to 'Evolve or Die'.)

[Bayar]

Well, yeah, Shojo wasn't a paladin. (though I wonder if he has some levels in Oracle or something, to have chosen that password when Belkar needs to at least appear to 'Evolve or Die'.)

It was just wisdom. A very high score of Wisdom.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Well, yeah, Shojo wasn't a paladin.

Yes. This is more or less the entirety of the point behind my post. But this is the standard password isn't it? Did Shojo do this a lot?

[Moff Chumley]

Well, that (Evolve or die) seems like a good theme for curses in general, so...

[Guran]

The criminal (Belkar in this case) has to change his ways and adjust to his suroundings. So he has to evolve and see different ways for living then the ones he always followed.

[gloomanddoom]

For some reason it struck me as related to the pokemon theme the paladins have with their pets... :smallconfused:

[Firewind]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

The Cleric already knows the passcode since he's already seen people from Azure City who have had Marks of Justice placed on them and activated. Being Chaotic Good and probably unlikely to want to punish other Chotic people, it's pretty likely that Shojo uses the same passcode on all people he puts the mark on.

[Evil DM Mark3]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

The Cleric already knows the passcode since he's already seen people from Azure City who have had Marks of Justice placed on them and activated. Being Chaotic Good and probably unlikely to want to punish other Chotic people, it's pretty likely that Shojo uses the same passcode on all people he puts the mark on.

But why (aside for the interesting theories put forward thus far) that particular password.

[Firewind]

Because the Cleric has admitted that he's cured that exact curse before?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Because the Cleric has admitted that he's cured that exact curse before?

Wrong end of the stick here. Why did Shojo chose that password. That was the point of this thread.

[Zevox]

Firewind, he's not asking why the Cleric knows the password - he's asking why Shojo would use that particular password.

If you ask me, the answer is pretty obvious. The little discussion Belkar just had with Shojo was a built-in effect of the Mark, not a mere hallucination. "Evolve or die" certainly fits with the whole lesson Shojo was trying to impart in that discussion.

Zevox

[Scarab83]

On a broader sense, it could be something along the lines of "Survival of the fittest". Shojo believes that every criminal has a chance of redemption, or evolution into something better, as the case might be. A little personal jab at the stricter paladin code he's surrounded by.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong.

[EndlessWrath]

Wrong end of the stick here. Why did Shojo chose that password. That was the point of this thread.

Mark of Justice was administered by shojo on very terrible crimes... which is why its placed on :belkar: ... Cause he murders tons of people.

"Evolve or die". Evolve and overcome your crimes... and become help to society... or at least stop committing the crime. Furthermore... an extreme Lawful attitude would dictate a uniform usage of the curse and thusly a uniform password.

At least thats my opinion. Belkar needed to evolve and grow some character or would die being unable to fight back...forever under this curse.

[hamishspence]

actually, cos he murdered one person and Roy wanted Shojo to let him out on bail. Mark was a safety measure.

[icantdrawrocks]

My guess is, anyone who is cursed with the Mark of Justice must have some use to them. Otherwise they'd just be imprisoned or executed for their crimes.

So it's not unlikely that all the previous recipients of the curse are similar to Belkar; a member of a party that's possibly too dangerous to let them run amuck, but too powerful to be confined, or not evil enough to be executed, with enough skill and usefulness to serve a purpose.

Thus they use the MoJ as a way to control their homicidal habits. And if the cursed person manages to set it off, Shojo gives them one last chance to redeem themselves in some way (evolving), because their abilities can still be channeled towards useful things. And if they really haven't changed or at least pretended to, well...they'll piss off the wrong person eventually (death).

If redemption (or I guess in this case, reformation) weren't an option, why else would the punishment for violating the terms of the MoJ be extreme sickness and not just outright death? Aside from the fact that "Squiddlydoodlefluffer" might come up in casual conversation...

Plus, "Evolve or Die" is short, sweet, and relevant. And it sounds cool too.

[guayec]

F*** YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!! :belkar:

[Fitzclowningham]

The only problem I can see with the password is that the Greater Mark of Justice isn't fatal. Horribly debilitating, sure, but it doesn't cause the death of the bearer. The password would make sense if Shojo knew about the Oracle's prophesy, but he didn't, and the same fate obviously didn't hang over the heads of the other criminals on whom he put the Mark.

Somehow, "Evolve or spend the rest of your life feeling like crap" doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Assassin89]

For some reason it struck me as related to the pokemon theme the paladins have with their pets... :smallconfused:

Pokemon evolution is actually metamorphosis, but it is still the same concept. Belkar is changing his mind set in order to live through the ordeal he is in.

[vbushido]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

[Zocelot]

The only problem I can see with the password is that the Greater Mark of Justice isn't fatal. Horribly debilitating, sure, but it doesn't cause the death of the bearer. The password would make sense if Shojo knew about the Oracle's prophesy, but he didn't, and the same fate obviously didn't hang over the heads of the other criminals on whom he put the Mark.

Somehow, "Evolve or spend the rest of your life feeling like crap" doesn't have the same ring to it.

He's a PC. If he can't fight, then he is as good as dead.

[Flickerdart]

It was just wisdom. A very high score of Wisdom.
Not a Paladin...high Wisdom...Shojo was an Ur-Priest! You heard it here first, folks.

And yes, I know he was a CG Aristocrat. But that's boring and does not lend itself to speculation.

[Lord_Butters_I]

The paladins are utterly unchanging, at least as a whole. There's a right and a wrong, and they're always right. They are absolutely unwilling to accept that maybe, just maybe, they don't have all the answers. That they might be wrong.

Shojo is not bound by that foolhardy mindset. Shojo realizes that there is no right, no wrong, no morality. There is no such thing as objective truth, and everything, EVERYTHING, changes. Thus, a person, group, or society has one choice in the face of this ultimate uncertainty: evolve or die. Adapt to new discoveries, revise obsolete policy, reimagine how you follow the rules, because the rules are going to change whether you like it or not.

Evolve or die.

[Quorothorn]

The paladins are utterly unchanging, at least as a whole. There's a right and a wrong, and they're always right. They are absolutely unwilling to accept that maybe, just maybe, they don't have all the answers. That they might be wrong.

Shojo is not bound by that foolhardy mindset. Shojo realizes that there is no right, no wrong, no morality. There is no such thing as objective truth, and everything, EVERYTHING, changes. Thus, a person, group, or society has one choice in the face of this ultimate uncertainty: evolve or die. Adapt to new discoveries, revise obsolete policy, reimagine how you follow the rules, because the rules are going to change whether you like it or not.

Evolve or die.

Except there, y'know, are such things as right and wrong, and not everything changes.

[David Argall]

But why (aside for the interesting theories put forward thus far) that particular password.

Well, one possibility is that we are overanalyzing. Our writer simply wanted a password with a reference to Belkar changing and and didn't worry about whether the paladins would have actually used it.

[dps]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

Sure it's not a reference to Sheridan in the Valley? :smallbiggrin:

[Emanick]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

I think you've nailed it.


The paladins are utterly unchanging, at least as a whole. There's a right and a wrong, and they're always right. They are absolutely unwilling to accept that maybe, just maybe, they don't have all the answers. That they might be wrong.

Shojo is not bound by that foolhardy mindset. Shojo realizes that there is no right, no wrong, no morality. There is no such thing as objective truth, and everything, EVERYTHING, changes. Thus, a person, group, or society has one choice in the face of this ultimate uncertainty: evolve or die. Adapt to new discoveries, revise obsolete policy, reimagine how you follow the rules, because the rules are going to change whether you like it or not.

Evolve or die.

No, that's not Chaotic Good. That's Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, depending how much emphasis you put on different parts of that philosophy. Believing there is no right, wrong, or morality is not Good, and usually not Neutral, either.

[vbushido]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

I got it partially wrong. The scene is an amalgam of Sheridan's trip and Garibaldi's interrogation where he is incessantly asked, "Who ARE you?"

[Lord_Butters_I]

No, that's not Chaotic Good. That's Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, depending how much emphasis you put on different parts of that philosophy. Believing there is no right, wrong, or morality is not Good, and usually not Neutral, either.

I'm talking about objective morality, the idea that the universe has an invisible law of right and wrong. Shojo has his own personal morality, but he doesn't force it down others' throats, thus acknowledging that his is not the only viewpoint, something the paladins won't do.

[evileeyore]

On a broader sense, it could be something along the lines of "Survival of the fittest". Shojo believes that every criminal has a chance of redemption, or evolution into something better, as the case might be. A little personal jab at the stricter paladin code he's surrounded by.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong.

This is truthery.

[Hydro Globus]

I'm talking about objective morality, the idea that the universe has an invisible law of right and wrong. Shojo has his own personal morality, but he doesn't force it down others' throats, thus acknowledging that his is not the only viewpoint, something the paladins won't do.

But... we know that the universe has such a thing. Spells like Detect Evil or Detect Good work.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Please guys, no alignment rows please.

[Athaniar]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

Ah, so it is another Babylon 5 reference? I like those.

[Hope]

The other possible reference for Evolve or Die would be the name of part of a spiderman story arc.

About a few years ago, in the marvel spiderman comics, there was a story arc call "The Other", whereby Spiderman lost to a very powerful villian. Spiderman died. During his death, he had a dream, he dreamt of a giant spider, which spoke to him, questioning him ""Are you the man who dreamed of being a spider? Or the spider who dreamed of being a man? Are you the one... or are you the other?"

By the end of it all, Spiderman woke up became alive again, , with a "new" body, all his entire life physical wounds all healed, and even "evolved" with some new/enhanced abilities.

The scenes in regards to Belkar in this particular strip is a reference to that comic. Which means Belkar will "evolve", becoming stronger, a level up perhaps? This is just pure wicked cool.

[snafu]

But... we know that the universe has such a thing. Spells like Detect Evil or Detect Good work.

Detect Evil and Detect Good are divine spells, yes? Given out by gods to their clerics in furtherance of their own agenda. So a positive 'detect evil' really means 'your god considers this person evil'. Can we trust that the gods' moral judgement in this matter is objective and reliable? It could be that the gods are simply divided into two factions and the spells are really more like 'Detect Blue Team' and 'Detect Red Team', with the labels of 'Good' and 'Evil' just there as divine propaganda.

Yes, we can read the rulebook and know that these spells are in fact objective and reliable, and that everyone has a particular alignment; but if you can't jump out of the universe and read the rules like that, you can't be so certain.

[whitelaughter]

the spells are really more like 'Detect Blue Team' and 'Detect Red Team', with the labels of 'Good' and 'Evil' just there as divine propaganda.
After 'red team' has turned your family into undead, care factor will be nil, and propaganda unnecessary.

[Hydro Globus]

I think - since gods aren't two factions, they are numerous - if you are correct, two Detect [Alignment]s wouldn't necessarily give the same result for the same people. Granted, we don't see a lot of Detect [Alignment]s in the strip, but I think that if it isn't objective, it would have been mentioned at least once already.

I think.
[hr]
Also, the characters do know about the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0143.html).

[Kish]

Detect Evil and Detect Good are divine spells, yes? Given out by gods to their clerics in furtherance of their own agenda. So a positive 'detect evil' really means 'your god considers this person evil'. Can we trust that the gods' moral judgement in this matter is objective and reliable? It could be that the gods are simply divided into two factions and the spells are really more like 'Detect Blue Team' and 'Detect Red Team', with the labels of 'Good' and 'Evil' just there as divine propaganda.

Yes, we can read the rulebook and know that these spells are in fact objective and reliable, and that everyone has a particular alignment; but if you can't jump out of the universe and read the rules like that, you can't be so certain.
Except that 1) OotS characters demonstrably can, and do, read the D&D rulebooks and 2) if the kind of "evil" detected by Detect Evil was solely at the whim of the gods, there would be no evil gods, only gods with different definitions of "Good."

[David Argall]

Detect Evil and Detect Good are divine spells, yes? Given out by gods to their clerics in furtherance of their own agenda. So a positive 'detect evil' really means 'your god considers this person evil'.

Categorically wrong. The game assumes the gods can be wrong, but the spell isn't. Evil and Good pre-existed the gods [most of which are described as former mortals.]

[Evil DM Mark3]

Sigh, ok then.
Detect Evil and Detect Good are divine spells, yes? Given out by gods to their clerics in furtherance of their own agenda. So a positive 'detect evil' really means 'your god considers this person evil'.

Wrong in every last detail. Let us assume for a minute that it is the views of the god that are the determiner.

First, this implies that the god goes and looks at everyone the spell targets.
Second, this begs the question why if the spell was used by an evil but self deluded god that it would still return "evil" on an evil character.
Third, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are concepts that pre-date sentience. They predate gods.
Fourth, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are tangible things! Go to a strongly evil plane and if you are good you will feel how tangible!

DnD has always had absolute alignments. Don't like it? Change it for your games. But do not act like that is the norm because it isn't.

Thanks for the thread derail.

[Lerky]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

The Cleric already knows the passcode since he's already seen people from Azure City who have had Marks of Justice placed on them and activated. Being Chaotic Good and probably unlikely to want to punish other Chotic people, it's pretty likely that Shojo uses the same passcode on all people he puts the mark on.

that seems a tad...careless. Considering someone will someday learn the passcode and than know it for everyone. I mean Shojo was wacky, but certainly not careless:smallconfused:

[Shatteredtower]

Maybe it's not just a password. It could also be a phrase Shojo tries too live by. I'd prefer "adapt" to "evolve", however. The latter is more about continuation of the species than personal survival.

[The Glyphstone]

Except that 1) OotS characters demonstrably can, and do, read the D&D rulebooks and 2) if the kind of "evil" detected by Detect Evil was solely at the whim of the gods, there would be no evil gods, only gods with different definitions of "Good."

Technically, they don't read the D&D rulebooks so much as their version of physics/chemistry/sociology textbooks, which just happen to obey the same rules as a D&D world. Aside from that, your point stands.

[Talic]

Here's your answer to why the blanket statement.

If you gave this curse out to around 1,000 people, would you want to change it up, and keep in in a book, a stealable book?

Or would you want to make it something your clerics could lift at their discretion after atonement, without the "lexicon of passphrases".

Thus, it would make sense that he'd choose a paladinly code.

For if they didn't evolve from their evil ways, they surely deserve death.

[mikeejimbo]

Firewind, he's not asking why the Cleric knows the password - he's asking why Shojo would use that particular password.

If you ask me, the answer is pretty obvious. The little discussion Belkar just had with Shojo was a built-in effect of the Mark, not a mere hallucination. "Evolve or die" certainly fits with the whole lesson Shojo was trying to impart in that discussion.

Zevox

But Shojo, while not a Paladin, was still good. Why would he build in something that teaches how to be a sneaky, lying bastard?

[Corwin Weber]

But Shojo, while not a Paladin, was still good. Why would he build in something that teaches how to be a sneaky, lying bastard?

Because he's chaotic.

While not all chaotic people are sneaky, lying bastards, it is an allowed option.

[Hydro Globus]

Also, there is no chance (short of a cursed alignment-shifting helmet (yes, those actually exist)) for converting Belkar to not to be evil. Lord Shojo chose the lesser wrong.

[Alysar]

Anyone else think that because of all this, Belkar is going to be taking on a prestige class that will help him really take advantage of his evil?

[Babale]

If you ask me, the answer is pretty obvious. The little discussion Belkar just had with Shojo was a built-in effect of the Mark, not a mere hallucination. "Evolve or die" certainly fits with the whole lesson Shojo was trying to impart in that discussion.

Zevox

If it was built in, how could Shojo say to Belkar "Hear the music? time's almost up."? A built-in message can't change. UNLESS it was a sort of magical version of Artificial Intelligence.

[Babale]

Technically, they don't read the D&D rulebooks so much as their version of physics/chemistry/sociology textbooks, which just happen to obey the same rules as a D&D world. Aside from that, your point stands.

If so, how come Haley comments when Roy dies that "I should have taken a look at the Monster Manual"? Or how come Redcloak has a bunch of books, like the Book of Vile Darkness?

[Scarab83]

Anyone else think that because of all this, Belkar is going to be taking on a prestige class that will help him really take advantage of his evil?

Frenzied Berserker, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

[Quorothorn]

If it was built in, how could Shojo say to Belkar "Hear the music? time's almost up."? A built-in message can't change. UNLESS it was a sort of magical version of Artificial Intelligence.

And even if that was the case, I wouldn't bet on it working: as a video-gamer, I can attest that what is called "Artificial Intelligence" often turns out to be "Artificial Stupidity".

[Lord_Butters_I]

Frenzied Berserker, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Don't even suggest that! That would be more than one universe could contain!

[Connington]

And even if that was the case, I wouldn't bet on it working: as a video-gamer, I can attest that what is called "Artificial Intelligence" often turns out to be "Artificial Stupidity".

It's magic, not computer software. Spells work with allot looser commands. So a spell something like "Convince the criminal that activates this mark to behave in a good or neutral fashion, regardless of evil intentions, taking into account environmental stimuli and the need to prevent the subject from realizing he's being manipulated." That could actually work with D&D magic. Or they could be trapping an extra-planar spirit, and then having it do the above, but that doesn't fit in with being Chaotic Good.

[Liwen]

I think I'll stick with the epiphany theory

[Quorothorn]

It's magic, not computer software. Spells work with allot looser commands. So a spell something like "Convince the criminal that activates this mark to behave in a good or neutral fashion, regardless of evil intentions, taking into account environmental stimuli and the need to prevent the subject from realizing he's being manipulated." That could actually work with D&D magic. Or they could be trapping an extra-planar spirit, and then having it do the above, but that doesn't fit in with being Chaotic Good.

True, true, it could work out. The possibility IS there.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

If it was built in, how could Shojo say to Belkar "Hear the music? time's almost up."? A built-in message can't change. UNLESS it was a sort of magical version of Artificial Intelligence.

It is also possible it was a built in spell effect like speak with dead/contact other plane that allowed him to speak with Sojo's spirit from the afterlife. Sojo would still be dead and still able to talk with Belkar. If Sojo was in a ghostly form (like Roy's or his father's forms) the mark could be the focus needed to allow a mortal to see him (similar to the Greenhilt sword).

[Alysar]

Maybe it's not just a password. It could also be a phrase Shojo tries too live by. I'd prefer "adapt" to "evolve", however. The latter is more about continuation of the species than personal survival.

ADAPTATION IS EVOLUTION YOU PIECE OF...

Oh. Sorry. That was just a reflex action from a different forum.

:smallbiggrin:

[Connington]

It is also possible it was a built in spell effect like speak with dead/contact other plane that allowed him to speak with Sojo's spirit from the afterlife. Sojo would still be dead and still able to talk with Belkar. If Sojo was in a ghostly form (like Roy's or his father's forms) the mark could be the focus needed to allow a mortal to see him (similar to the Greenhilt sword).

Unlikely. First off, I doubt Shojo planned on hauling himself down from the afterlife for dozens of criminals. That there were a sizable amount of people he stuck with the MOJ is evidenced by the cleric's familiarity with it.

Far more importantly, I don't think Shojo planned on being dead.

[ZerglingOne]

The whole Shojo/Belkar scene is a direct reference to Sheridan at Z'ha'dum. The scene happened in Babylon 5. The season's tagline was Evolve or Die.

This.
edit: Pff...who needs 3 reasons, this is the only one we need.
1. Rich is a huge Babylon 5 fan.

[Roderick_BR]

Because Shojo knew, years, maybe decades, before hand, that a main character would need a lesson, and created that password, so rogue clerics knew what to say.
It's obvious :smallbiggrin:

Say, didn't they put the MoJ on Belkar AFTER Shojo's death? :smalltongue:

What actually strikes me as ironic, is how Shojo tells Belkar to fake character development, and then right away makes him remember the belief of being a more deep and real character, instead of just a bunch of labels (halfling, ranger, chaotic good) :smallwink:

Well, they both are chaotic anyway.

[Querzis]

I just think that means Shojo want to give criminals a chance to reform before killing them. Even if the Mark is supposed to be non-fatal, who the hell is gonna feed and take care of a murderer for the rest of their life? Even if the curse doesnt kill them directly, its still gonna kill them indirectly.

[MikoROCKS]

:belkar:Lets face the facts:

We know that Belkar's death has been prophesised, and that the cleric hints at it with 'evolve or die', but Shojo tells Belkar how to 'evolve' in 606 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)
-by cheating- 'nudge die rolls, palm cards, "forget" penalties'. This may allow him to get round his presumed fate... (he also said that the extended metaphor meant that otherwise he would be killed) and if Belkar's PLAYER cheated, then he could be saved from the in-game prophesy. However, this would not be breaking the fourth wall so much as smashing it to pieces.

Besides Rich is too good a writer to make such a thing too obvious... I suppose the forthcoming strips will reveal...

[Hydro Globus]

There are no players for the PCs.

[Raging Gene Ray]

There are no players for the PCs.

Rich has said that. I personally agree that ending the comic by cutting away to a bunch of players around a table would be a predictable cop-out.

I think people decided that "Evolve or Die" was a Babylon 5 reference. Something about it being the tagline for one of the seasons, where two characters have an exchange very much like Belkar and Shojo's.

(Speculation)

As for Belkar cheating death...I don't see why the Giant wouldn't throw us that curve ball. Something about Tiamat making predictions based on available information...then Tiamat personally kills Belkar because she doesn't like being made a fool of.

[MikoROCKS]

Ok, even if it doesn't refer to a player as such, Shojo is still explicitly telling Belkar that he has to 'nudge some die rolls' or die.

[Traker]

Ok so I will nudge my roll 18 now I nudge it I GOT A 2
Ok so would not nudge an 18 but oh well.

[NerfTW]

Ok, even if it doesn't refer to a player as such, Shojo is still explicitly telling Belkar that he has to 'nudge some die rolls' or die.

They openly mention "die rolls" in character. It will probably never be explicitly spelled out how these die rolls are being done, but several jokes have hinged on the characters checking their die rolls before reacting to things. Notably, the current Crystal/Haley battle, where Haley escapes because says she needs to know whether she should have taken damage from the pickles or not.

As for the players, Belkar states in THE SAME COMIC you're referencing that there are no players.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Ok, even if it doesn't refer to a player as such, Shojo is still explicitly telling Belkar that he has to 'nudge some die rolls' or die.

The die rolls, I guess can be thought of as Diplomacy checks. Belkar needs to pretend to be a team player or Celia and Haley will abandon him and his death will occur slightly earlier.

Illusory Shojo is either a figment of Belkar's imagination (no idea about the prophecy) or a Pre-programmed Lecture in the MoJ (still wouldn't know about the prophecy and wouldn't tell Belkar anyway. That would just cause Belkar to go on a rampage in an attempt to enjoy his last days).

[Babale]

It is also possible it was a built in spell effect like speak with dead/contact other plane that allowed him to speak with Sojo's spirit from the afterlife. Sojo would still be dead and still able to talk with Belkar. If Sojo was in a ghostly form (like Roy's or his father's forms) the mark could be the focus needed to allow a mortal to see him (similar to the Greenhilt sword).


But if it's a speak with dead spell, wouldn't Shojo have had to have known that he would die before Belkar activated the mark? Also, Shojo probably did this for many criminals, not just Belkar. But only the OOtS knew that Shojo was sane! Shojo wouldn't tell that secret to any criminal!

[Deathcon300]

HEy u guys are reading this all wrong belkars "Life" is Killing and makeing everyone miserable so him being sick is like being "dead" for him so realy evolve( get with the program and pretend to be good) or die (keep on being sick or be killed when the rogues burst through the door)


Belkar Rulz!!!:belkar:

[Deathcon300]

Hey u guys are reading this all wrong belkars "Life" is Killing and makeing everyone miserable so him being sick is like being "dead" for him so realy evolve( get with the program and pretend to be good) or die (keep on being sick or be killed when the rogues burst through the door)


Belkar Rulz!!!:belkar:

[Grey Watcher]

Even assuming that Belkar is actually talking to the honest-to-goodness spirit of the late Lord Shojo, I don't know if that means Belkar's newfound outlook of playing the system is necessarily a protection from the Oracle's prophecy.

For starters, there's no evidence that Belkar, Shojo, or the MoJ are in any way aware of that prophecy.

Also, the Oracle's prophecies have proven to be accurate so far. Shojo was incredibly skilled at weaseling out of things. The question I guess remains as to whether or not Belkar can become so good at it as to literally weasel his way out of fate. (Which, ultimately, will say something, one way or the other about the nature of fate and prophecy and such in the OotS setting....)

[Hydro Globus]

wouldn't Shojo have had to have known...

Sorry, it is entirely offtopic, but it's exactly these sentences why I never seemed to master English verb tenses... :)

[Babale]

lol, I thought I was incorrect too.

[Hydro Globus]

For starters, there's no evidence that Belkar, Shojo, or the MoJ are in any way aware of that prophecy.

Actually, we pretty much know they aren't.

[Hydro Globus]

lol, I thought I was incorrect too.

I don't know. Honest. English isn't my first language.

[hamishspence]

Given that I have seen much worse English from those for whom it wasn't a second language, kudos.

[Kish]

Say, didn't they put the MoJ on Belkar AFTER Shojo's death? :smalltongue:
:smallconfused: No. What? Shojo had the Mark put on Belkar well before he died.

[Hydro Globus]

Given that I have seen much worse English from those for whom it wasn't a second language, kudos.

Well, thank you :)

However, please (and I ask any and all readers) if I make a mistake using English, tell me, so that I won't make it again (I hope). I always try to improve my English.

[MasterofMockery]

Huh I thought it was in reference to varsuvius's theory about the whole proto-brain where you can register under hate or lust

[Kaihaku]

The characters can be PC archetypes without having players.

[Gloverboy]

Some speculation from a Storymancy Acolyte, or what you may call a Drama Student.

Prophecy and general referencing of the future is a tricky thing in stories. It's all over the place in "Heroes" for example. Every friggin season they see some undesirable future and work to change it, only to find a new one afterwards.

One of their characters said something very useful to this concept. "Whats the point of seeing the future if you don't change it?"

Or we could reference the countless episodes of "Star Trek", any of them, where some temporal anomaly shows them their imminent death, and knowledge of it allows them to avoid it.

The problem of course is, Belkar is not forwarned or forearmed against his death. the prophecy handed to him was who he would kill.

But someone is warned, right? ROY! and though the halfling annoys him greatly, and often, he is absurdly useful in combat, and Roy feels responsible for his welfare.

The mechanics of this can be debated, but the kicker for me is this: If the Oracle is held as completely infallible and immutable, half the fun of knowing the future is gone.

still, the more Belkar grows, the more we become attached, the greater emotion evoked by his death. The Giant has some powerful options available.

[Emo Samurai]

Where does the oracle say Belkar's gonna die? It's the dwarf that's going to go home posthumously. Belkar just asks if he's going to kill someone.

[factotum]

Where does the oracle say Belkar's gonna die? It's the dwarf that's going to go home posthumously. Belkar just asks if he's going to kill someone.

The oracle has said on at least four separate occasions that Belkar is going to die! Twice in strip #329 ("the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA", "he should savour his next birthday cake"), and then twice again in #572 ("your pal isn't long for this world", "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year").

[Eloel]

Die roll is not Death roll, it's Dice Roll........

[Fishman]

Something like that could go either way: After all, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would kill him, and he did, yet he got better. The only OFFICIAL prophecy is that "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year". This means surprisingly little, as there is ample room in a fantasy setting to weasel out of that. Indeed, it is possible the oracle misinterpreted his own prophecy: We know the oracle is not infallible, as he clearly expected the memory charm to work on ghost-Roy, but it did not.

What this all means? Who knows? Who cares? Not me!

[sentaku]

Something like that could go either way: After all, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would kill him, and he did, yet he got better. The only OFFICIAL prophecy is that "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year". This means surprisingly little, as there is ample room in a fantasy setting to weasel out of that. Indeed, it is possible the oracle misinterpreted his own prophecy: We know the oracle is not infallible, as he clearly expected the memory charm to work on ghost-Roy, but it did not.

What this all means? Who knows? Who cares? Not me!

Or the oracle knew that the memory charm would not effect Roy. The clerics teleport in and out and are not effected by the memory charm because they did not pass through it, nor did Roy.

[Roderick_BR]

:smallconfused: No. What? Shojo had the Mark put on Belkar well before he died.
Oh, my bad. They put the MoJ when they were on that first mission for him. I failed my Wis check (or memory is Int?)

[evileeyore]

Sorry, it is entirely offtopic, but it's exactly these sentences why I never seemed to master English verb tenses... :)lol, I thought I was incorrect too.

It isn't incorrect. But the first "have" and "had" are unnecessary.

An "easier" structure is:

"But if it's a speak with dead spell, wouldn't Shojo have to know that he would die before Belkar activated the mark?"

All that extra past-tense-ness and repeated words are what is giving you fits. Present tense is perfectly fine for the sentence... unless you really want to drive the past tense notion home then you can do this "...Shojo need to have known..." which avoids the awkward sounding extra "have".

[factotum]

Something like that could go either way: After all, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would kill him, and he did, yet he got better.


However, that's ALL the Oracle predicted would happen, and that's all that DID happen--there was no clause saying he would be dead forever. Pretty much all the Oracle's predictions of Belkar's death have indicated finality; if he was to die and be resurrected, he could again savour birthday cake and fund his IRA, so why say that Belkar wouldn't be able to do either?

As for the Oracle "forgetting" the Memory Charm wouldn't affect Roy, I think the Oracle is fully aware that happened, but he's relying on something else. In particular, it's been speculated that a person who is resurrected does not retain any memory of what happened to them in the afterlife--if they did remember, why would Roy not know where he was once he died? After all, his own father died and was resurrected six times...

[House_of_Dexter]

Even assuming that Belkar is actually talking to the honest-to-goodness spirit of the late Lord Shojo, I don't know if that means Belkar's newfound outlook of playing the system is necessarily a protection from the Oracle's prophecy.

For starters, there's no evidence that Belkar, Shojo, or the MoJ are in any way aware of that prophecy.

Also, the Oracle's prophecies have proven to be accurate so far. Shojo was incredibly skilled at weaseling out of things. The question I guess remains as to whether or not Belkar can become so good at it as to literally weasel his way out of fate. (Which, ultimately, will say something, one way or the other about the nature of fate and prophecy and such in the OotS setting....)I think you hit the nail on the head...

Can he weasel himself out of a permanent death?...My 2cents are on :belkar: ...He's been pretty good at getting the better of those pesky kobolds...

At this time...:belkar: doesn't know about the prophesy...So he can't work against it...But :roy: does, and if he has a chance to warn :belkar:, then the weaseling can begin...

[Forum Staff]

Two threads regarding the meaning of "Evolve or Die" have been merged.

[Glome]

One of their characters said something very useful to this concept. "Whats the point of seeing the future if you don't change it?"


I'm pretty sure that the Oracle takes into account the effect of his prophecy on the future. The Oracle knows that Belkar is going to kill him because of his prophecy (although he would probably have killed the kobold anyway just to prove him wrong), and he knows a druid will kill him in the future because of his prediction.

If the Oracle predicting that Belkar was going to die was going to save Belkar, the Oracle wouldn't have said anything, certainly he wouldn't make the prediction for free. After all, I'm sure the Oracle wants to see Belkar die. So whatever information Roy now possesses is vague enough that it isn't going to save Belkar's life, or the Oracle wouldn't have given him that information.

[SPoD]

Prophecy and general referencing of the future is a tricky thing in stories. It's all over the place in "Heroes" for example. Every friggin season they see some undesirable future and work to change it, only to find a new one afterwards.

One of their characters said something very useful to this concept. "Whats the point of seeing the future if you don't change it?"

Here's the thing, though: In this case, the prophecies are being dispensed by a follower of an overtly Evil entity. They are thus not necessarily intended to help the people who receive them.

The "point" may well be to watch Good people struggle in vain to avert a future that is immutable, then laugh in their faces as they die without purpose.

[FatJose]

The point of the curse is to rehabilitate criminals right? Kind of how prison is supposed to do the same through punishment. fear of jail or not wanting to go back is theoretically supposed to stop people from committing crime. Shojo has a different approach.

What I took from it is that this Evolve or Die thing is supposed to teach criminals that they have to adapt to ssociety or die. Shojo seems to be of the opinion that Good will be good and Evil will be evil and there isnt much you can do to force one to be the other. This is very much unlike the paladins who either kill evil beings or try to convert them. Paladins think that when converting, its as easy as telling someone they've made an error and the person will see this flaw and immediately fix it.

Shojo knows men with evil in their hearts will be evil but his method of rehabilitation is more realistic. "You probably are never going to stop being an evil monster at heart. Still, don't do it if you want to survive. It's that simple. Keep that crap indoors, so to speak, don't be so blatant and obvious about it. Keep it to yourself or in a profession that allows you to use that pent up aggression"

[Deathcon300]

Hey u guys are reading this all wrong belkars "Life" is Killing and makeing everyone miserable so him being sick is like being "dead" for him so realy evolve( get with the program and pretend to be good) or die (keep on being sick or be killed when the rogues burst through the door!!!)

seriously

:belkar: booyah major highway commin through!!!

[Raging Gene Ray]

Shojo knows men with evil in their hearts will be evil but his method of rehabilitation is more realistic...Keep that crap indoors, so to speak, don't be so blatant and obvious about it. Keep it to yourself or in a profession that allows you to use that pent up aggression"

Oh, you mean like adventuring or law enforcement?

[Gloverboy]

I'm pretty sure that the Oracle takes into account the effect of his prophecy on the future. The Oracle knows that Belkar is going to kill him because of his prophecy (although he would probably have killed the kobold anyway just to prove him wrong), and he knows a druid will kill him in the future because of his prediction.

If the Oracle predicting that Belkar was going to die was going to save Belkar, the Oracle wouldn't have said anything, certainly he wouldn't make the prediction for free. After all, I'm sure the Oracle wants to see Belkar die. So whatever information Roy now possesses is vague enough that it isn't going to save Belkar's life, or the Oracle wouldn't have given him that information.

Very good point. The Oracle is something of a vindictive cuss, and getting stabbed certainly doesn't put you on his happy list. I dont think he should be looked at as infallible. If so, is he even useful?

His distaste for Belkar is the real big hole in my theory. But Look to his actions. He gave Roy a freebie. There is no need to repeat that bit of info except to give it specifically to Roy, and let it be useful.

But will that knowledge prevent, or ensure Belkar's demise?


Here's the thing, though: In this case, the prophecies are being dispensed by a follower of an overtly Evil entity. They are thus not necessarily intended to help the people who receive them.

The "point" may well be to watch Good people struggle in vain to avert a future that is immutable, then laugh in their faces as they die without purpose.

I dont know about that. the OOTS' goal is to end the threat of the Snarl, God-Killer supreme. Tiamat has as much to lose as Thor, Loki, etc. And Belkar is more or less on the same trail. He mostly cares about killing, but he is relatively easy to aim.

It would be in Tiamat's best interest to let the crazy little buzzsaw keep breathing.