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Uin
2008-11-22, 04:40 PM
I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.

Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Rational for some of the choices
Feats: I don't think I'll be allowed Archmage, unfortunate since its handier for a Sorceror than Wizard.
Lightning Bolt: Well I may need to do damage at some point, this can be empowered to replace 5th lvl damage spells.
Stinking Cloud: To be replaced with Haste once I have Acid Fog.
Lack of Polymorph: I'm not sure how ridiculous I want to be yet.

I know theres the Batman Guide (useful) and the Solo Guide (not so useful).

BRC
2008-11-22, 04:45 PM
If you've got a decent dex score, Pick up Scorching Ray. a 2nd level spell that deals 12d6 damage as a touch attack is nothing to laugh at.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-22, 05:00 PM
I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.

Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Let's see....

You've got your "No save, just suck" debuff (Ray of Enfeeblement), your Will save or Suck (Glitterdust, Slow), and your Fort Save or Suck (Baelful Polymorph, Stinking Cloud). You've also got a combat control (black tentacles), and anti-caster effects (Dispel Magic... although at level 12, Dispel Magic is generally going to be a wasted action, as anything you want to dispel will normally have a caster level higher than yours, and Dispel Magic is capped at +10). You've also got your defenses (mirror Image, Grease, Mage Armor, Improved Invisibility), and your combat maneuvering (overland flight, Dimension Door). You're lacking a Reflex Save or Suck (Web and Resilient Sphere being my favorites).

I personally tend to be fond of the Shadow line of spells (not for the obvious effects of mimicing direct damage, but for the less obvious ones - Phantom Steed and the like). I'm also fond of the Planar Binding line (even with the number of spells known you need to burn to make it work), especially for Sorcerers (charisma synergy) because it lets you prepare for an upcoming, known encounter (Call the perfect outsider, rather than Preparing the perfect spell).

Mephit
2008-11-22, 05:06 PM
I'm not entirely sure why you have Invisibility on there if you have the 4th level version of it in your spells known. It's not as if there are so many situations where using a 2-level higher spell slot isn't worth the advantages...Like Jack_Simth mentioned, I'd trade it for Web. (Or BRC's Scorching ray)

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 05:11 PM
Aye, reflex save. Resiliant sphere is good. I forget, is Bands of Steel core? Thats a decent Reflex save vs lose.

I'd suggest maybe Heighten Spell. At the cost of your move action, you can use some of your lower level save vs suck spells as higher level spells. This ensures that you always have the most powerful spell for the job available. Really need to target a weak will save, but need more than a DC18-20? Heighten Glitterdust up to level 6 and nail em with DC22-24 depending on caster stat. Makes it so you only need 1 spell for each save, as long as you aren't too dependant on your move action. Better than empower for you atm, get it later.

Also, no Solid Fog? Man, that spell is KILLER. Then again, there are SOOOOO many good 4th level spells. No save, no SR, just spend 2+ rounds getting out of it, or teleport. Either way, 1-2 foes are pretty well screwed for long enough for your party to regroup and whack them 1 at a time as they come out of the fog. Since you don't have Freezing Fog (non-core) I'd highly suggest picking up SF asap. Maybe swap up from Dim Door to Teleport and replace Dim Door with SF. Its really that good. I've knocked dragons out of the sky with it (provided they don't have maneuverability feats or that one magic item) since you can cause them to stall. Its pretty badass, IMO.

EDIT: Scratch that advice about Heighten. I just saw you have it. Don't mind me, I'm just sitting in an airport drinking heavily. :P

Ent
2008-11-22, 05:17 PM
Maybe throw a summon spell somewhere in there? They're very useful in and out of combat.

Iku Rex
2008-11-22, 05:26 PM
Looks like a pretty good list.

Feats:
Get Greater Spell Penetration.
Silent Spell would be nice as well, to make sure you can always dimension door away from a bad situation.

If you pick more ray spells, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot just might be worth it. (Though with a good Dex you'll hit most of the time even with the -4 penalty.)

Consider dropping:
Identify and see invisible can be replaced by scrolls. The entire party should chip in on scrolls of identify. See invisible can be useful of course, but it's not needed that often unless you were planning on using it as a standard buff. Even without a scroll you still have glitterdust.

You're close to the point where mage armor can be replaced with bracers of armor at a reasonable cost.

Shatter is not very useful.

Stinking cloud seems unnecessary to me.

Do you really need both baleful polymorph and disintegrate? (Fort save effects.)

Consider getting:
Alter self (troglodyte) provides AC goodness without the full polymorph effect.

Rope trick is a great way to rest safely. Alarm is an alternative.

Haste is good enough that I'd start with it instead of stinking cloud.

Heroism is a good buff.

Enervation is a solid spell at level 4.

I'd get resist energy or protection from energy.

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 05:30 PM
Do you really need both baleful polymorph and disintegrate? (Fort save effects.)


Disintegrate is also known as Greater Open, which adds a large degree of OOC versitility to the spell. Door what?

mostlyharmful
2008-11-22, 05:45 PM
Scrap the Overland Flight and get a phantom steed instead (Made available by getting rid of direct damage Lightning Bolt, see TLG (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085&highlight=logic+ninjas+guide+batman) guide). Direct damage is almost always a waste of an action for a mage and even if it is on very rare occassions a good choice you've already got the core direct damage spell worth taking in disintigrate. You can shove Solid Fog or Resilient sphere into the new 4 slot. The steed moves faster, moves on its own so you don't waste that action and takes a lower level slot... unfortunately it's moderately vulnerable to being shot out from under you but hey, if you didn't want to take risks you wouldn't be an adventurer.:smalltongue:

I'm surprised you don't find the Solo guide more useful than TLNs work given Solo uses the ninjas work as a jumping off point to specialize in sorcs. in core. which is exactly you. :smallconfused:

Iku Rex
2008-11-22, 06:16 PM
Disintegrate is also known as Greater Open, which adds a large degree of OOC versitility to the spell. Door what?It never even occurred to me that he'd drop disintegrate out of the two.:smallsmile:

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-11-22, 07:49 PM
Empowered Scorching Ray deals 18d6 and is a 4th level spell. That's 63 damage. Not bad if you go against undead, nongolem constructs and other humans that tend to be highly resilient to save-or-lose stuff.

Also, ditch Lightning Bolt and replace with Fireball. Save-or-lose is good until you realise the enemy archers have a range of 300+ feet and your save-or lose spells can't reach. Fireball is useful because of its massive range (1100 feet in your case).

Jack_Simth
2008-11-22, 09:01 PM
Empowered Scorching Ray deals 18d6 and is a 4th level spell. That's 63 damage. Not bad if you go against undead, nongolem constructs and other humans that tend to be highly resilient to save-or-lose stuff.

Also, ditch Lightning Bolt and replace with Fireball. Save-or-lose is good until you realise the enemy archers have a range of 300+ feet and your save-or lose spells can't reach. Fireball is useful because of its massive range (1100 feet in your case).
That's the other reason for Resilient Sphere: you can cast it on yourself, buff to your heart's content, and laugh at almost any archer that shoots an arrow at you. Then Dimension Door to within range.

Hal
2008-11-22, 10:24 PM
Are you married to being pure Sorcerer? A two-level dip in Paladin will net you a lot and still let you get 9th level spells.

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-22, 11:16 PM
I've always been a huge fan of the solid fog-grease-black tentacles combo. Make them pass three or four checks with a five foot step as a prize.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-22, 11:30 PM
Wouldn't grease make it easier to escape black tentacles?

Flickerdart
2008-11-22, 11:50 PM
Wouldn't grease make it easier to escape black tentacles?
It would certainly reduce the effectiveness of Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion...wait, you still have your mages learn the boring Evard's version?

Zeful
2008-11-23, 12:03 AM
It would certainly reduce ingrease increase the effectiveness of Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion...wait, you still have your mages learn the boring Evard's version?

Lube makes those kinds of things easier, not harder.

Flickerdart
2008-11-23, 12:22 AM
Lube makes those kinds of things easier, not harder.
It makes it less harmful to the target, silly.

monty
2008-11-23, 12:50 AM
It makes it less harmful to the target, silly.

The physical part isn't where most of the damage comes from...

Flickerdart
2008-11-23, 12:53 AM
The physical part isn't where most of the damage comes from...
Hm, well...that really depends. Those spikes look pretty vicious.

monty
2008-11-23, 12:56 AM
Hm, well...that really depends. Those spikes look pretty vicious.

Fighter can shrug off a sword to the face. I think they can handle that part.

Eclipse
2008-11-23, 01:11 AM
I'm not entirely sure why you have Invisibility on there if you have the 4th level version of it in your spells known. It's not as if there are so many situations where using a 2-level higher spell slot isn't worth the advantages...Like Jack_Simth mentioned, I'd trade it for Web. (Or BRC's Scorching ray)

This is just a guess, but it might be because the 2nd level invisibility lasts a lot longer the the 4th level greater invisibility, and is better suited to stealthy things that might take some time. Invisibility lasts for 1 min/lvl., whereas greater invisibility lasts for 1 round/lvl.

Harp
2008-11-23, 02:37 AM
Looks like a pretty good list.

Alter self (troglodyte) provides AC goodness without the full polymorph effect.

This is one of the better suggestions I've seen. Alter Self has applications beyond giving yourself a lot of Nat AC. Keep in mind it lasts quite awhile (10 mins per level) so you can generally cast and forget it. Trogs are the typical favorites because they are the humanoids that provide the most nat AC, but Lizardmen come in a close second and do not take the hit to their move speed. There are other various humanoids you can turn into for disguises or to gain new movements (in core I think the only move speed you can acquire as a humanoid is a swim speed).

In my opinion, you should get See Invisibility off the list. Glitterdust does the same thing and has an offensive component. While See Invis might be a little more subtle and longer lasting, how often do you think you're going to fight invisible opponents?

I'd also say replace Identify with Protection from Evil (or whatever alignment you'll be up against the most in the campaign). Assuming the group has a cleric or wizard that can cover this buff typically, Shield , Magic Missile, and Color Spray are all useful replacements.

Shatter's an okay pick, but I'd probably replace it with Scorching Ray. Any object that you'll want to destroy at this level is almost certainly going to be magical, making this spell by RAW useless (unless you're fighting a lot of crystaline creatures).

Fairly solid character though overall. I'm a big fan of practical core builds.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-23, 02:41 AM
Regarding Acid Fog, Freezing Fog isn't as dangerous, but it also uses Grease on the area. Apart from Shatter (which I'd replace with Rope Trick), that looks like a good spell list.:smallsmile:

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 03:42 AM
Regarding Acid Fog, Freezing Fog isn't as dangerous, but it also uses Grease on the area. Apart from Shatter (which I'd replace with Rope Trick), that looks like a good spell list.:smallsmile:

Wand rope trick! Never a spell!

An Extended Wand of Rope Trick @ CL 5 costs as much as a wand of a third degree spell.

Cheaper at CL 4, and provides the 8 hours of cover you need. Bit expensive, but you really want to have something that scales better as a spell known at higher levels.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 03:53 AM
Snag Shadow Conjuration. It gives you Greater Mage Armor, Phantom Steed, and any number of other useful spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-23, 04:17 AM
Sorry about forgetting about Wands. If you can get one of those, tkae Scortching Ray rather then Shatter (Shatter will proably make you unpopular with party members who need weapons and equipment).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-23, 12:10 PM
I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.
Okay, and here's my advice for you


Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Ouch. Just... ouch. Most of the metamagic feats you picked up are not worth the price of excrement on a ranch.

Extend is worthless. The only time you want it is when you can't afford the +1 SL cost. Now that you're 12th level, all of your hours/level spells will be effectively all day, and the rest of them will last throughout combat.

Empower is usually not effective, it's generally a false economy. However, with Enervation, it's generally worth it, but that's about the only case I can think of offhand.

Heighten is moderately useful if you're using a lot of lower end save-or-screwed effects, basically jacking up saves to your highest level save.

Spell Penetration isn't very useful either, a +2 is not going to help one way or the other.

My suggestions:

Still and Silent Spell and Eschew Materials. With these three feats, your spells cannot be counterspelled, because you give no indication what spell you are casting. Still spell also means getting out of grapples and being able to cast in armor.

Why Spell Focus (Transmutation)? Granted, if you're going to take Spell Focus,that's the school to do it in, but why? Have you a specific build in mind which requires it (like Archmage)? By itself, it generally underperforms, but it can be a useful part of a powerful combo.


Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Rational for some of the choices
Feats: I don't think I'll be allowed Archmage, unfortunate since its handier for a Sorceror than Wizard.
Lightning Bolt: Well I may need to do damage at some point, this can be empowered to replace 5th lvl damage spells.
Stinking Cloud: To be replaced with Haste once I have Acid Fog.
Lack of Polymorph: I'm not sure how ridiculous I want to be yet.

I know theres the Batman Guide (useful) and the Solo Guide (not so useful).

Why do you think you're not going to be allowed to get Archmage? Sure, the requirements are pretty steep, and worse for a Sorcerer than a Wizard, but still... it's not impossible. DM Fiat or something?

Mage Armor is a good choice, since you're core and can't get Twilight Mithral Chain or some way of mitigating the 10% ASF without resorting to Still Spell.
Grease is an excellent choice, I commend you on it.
Ray of Enfeeblement... it's okay, although it's a penalty not stat damage.
Identify... isn't worth it to be known for a Sorcerer. It costs 100g per casting. If you're casting it enough to be worth a spell known, you're going to run yourself out of money. Scroll it, don't learn it.
Silent Image can be a very useful spell.

Glitterdust and Mirror Image are two of the best 2nd level spells, I congratulate your wisdom in these choices.
See Invisible is also another good choice, so you can see what you have to glitterdust to show your allies.
Invisibility... why? You already have Mirror Image, which is better. Unless you plan on casting this on the party rogue, in which case Greater would be better.
Shatter... if you have Disintegrate, you really don't need this.
I suggest grabbing Scorching Ray for damage output instead of Shatter.

Slow and Dispel Magic are both wonderful choices.
Stinking Cloud is also another VERY handy spell to shut down casters with.
Lightning bolt... isn't. Let's face it, because it's a line, and you're likely not going to be in front of everyone else, you're probably going to be hitting an ally with it. Try Haste or better, Greater Magic Weapon.

Your 4th level spells are perfect, I couldn't have chosen any better. Grab Resilient Sphere next level when you get another 4th level spell known.

Baneful Polymorph is a good spell, but you're hitting a lot of Fort saves, and not a lot of anything else. Diversity is king. Feeblemind is a good one for shutting down casters. Teleport is probably going to be better for the party than Overland Flight. Don't replace Stinking Cloud with Acid Fog, replace it with Cloudkill. Much better spell that still does stat damage on sucessful save.

Disintegrate is a wonderful spell.

Triaxx
2008-11-23, 03:15 PM
Extended Improved Invisiblity. Perhaps the only way to actually use the spell to any effect. That said, an Improved Invisible Leap Trooper is a very hard foe to fight because it does tons of damage and you don't know where they are or who they are going to hit next. Also good for a rogue.

Lightning Bolt is not a great damage spell. It is good for P/Oing certain large enemies, such as Ogre's or bosses into trying to smash your sorceror into goo. Combine with a Major Image and Invisibility. Leave everyone to the sides, out of sight of the door, but in reach. The enemy charges at the Major image, stopping to attack it. One square shy of where you actually are, while being subjected to party size number of AoO's. And since you were invisible behind the Image casting the spell, it's thus harder to disbelieve.

Funny thing about Shatter. See the thing about Shatter is that you can in fact target, say bones. Rather hard to concentrate no matter your class if your thighbone has been shattered into a few thousand pieces. Or think if your skull just exploded inside your helmet.

Magic Missile over Identify. Eventually you'll have Will-o-wisps thrown at you and being able to do damage to them when everyone else spends full attacks with no PA doing nothing but whiffing, is a very good feeling.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 03:21 PM
Funny thing about Shatter. See the thing about Shatter is that you can in fact target, say bones. Rather hard to concentrate no matter your class if your thighbone has been shattered into a few thousand pieces. Or think if your skull just exploded inside your helmet.

Parts of the body are not objects.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 03:42 PM
1) Bones are not objects, and you do not have line of effect to them.

2) Will-o-Wisps? You mean the ones with Magical Immunity that completely negates your SR: Yes Magic Missle?

The least you could do is say Greater Shadows or something.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 03:44 PM
What Shatter is good for is blowing up the keystones of arches/arch bridges, doors, windows, pillars, catapults, ship masts, etc.

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-23, 04:13 PM
Just like disintegrate is good at, um, disintegrating them?

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 04:20 PM
Just like disintegrate is good at, um, disintegrating them?

Yes!

Obviously, more useful at lower levels, especially considering the low will save fighter isn't likely to have a magical sword on him.

AmberVael
2008-11-23, 04:48 PM
Extend is worthless. The only time you want it is when you can't afford the +1 SL cost. Now that you're 12th level, all of your hours/level spells will be effectively all day, and the rest of them will last throughout combat.
That's a bit of a generalization, really. Extend can be fairly effective even at higher levels, but it has to be used with the right spells.
Sadly, as a Sorcerer is limited in terms of what spells they can pick, and as such need to pick a wide variety, it may mean that you can't get as much use out of it as a Wizard could.


Heighten is moderately useful if you're using a lot of lower end save-or-screwed effects, basically jacking up saves to your highest level save.
It seems to me Heighten might actually be pretty good, at least looking at it theoretically. Wizards shouldn't go for it, but with a Sorcerer, who adds metamagic when they need to, and has a lot of spell slots but less spells... Heighten could give you a a fair bit more versatility with your list, really.
In comparison to other core metamagic, that is.

Triaxx
2008-11-23, 05:18 PM
Line of effect is easy enough if you require a touch attack. And can a bone be picked up and used as a weapon? Then it's an object.

Zeful
2008-11-23, 05:30 PM
Line of effect is easy enough if you require a touch attack. And can a bone be picked up and used as a weapon? Then it's an object.

Skin and flesh block line of effect to the bone.

And if it's alive (or a facsimile thereof) then it's not an object.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 05:31 PM
Line of effect is easy enough if you require a touch attack. And can a bone be picked up and used as a weapon? Then it's an object.

1) You do not have line of effect to any bones inside their body. So you cannot use it on bones that are inside their body. If they happen to be holding a bone, that is different.

2) You can pick up an ally and wield them as a weapon, they are still a creature not an object. A bone that is part of corpse (but not an undead) is an object, because when you die, your Corpse becomes an object. Before that point, it is not an object, it is a creature.

Rasilak
2008-11-23, 06:23 PM
Are you married to being pure Sorcerer? A two-level dip in Paladin will net you a lot and still let you get 9th level spells.
Sorry, I think I'm missing the point. Why is the Paladin-Dip worth losing two caster levels? I don't see that much of a benefit, but yearn to be enlightened.

Zeful
2008-11-23, 06:25 PM
Cha to all saves from paladin 2.

Yahzi
2008-11-23, 06:59 PM
1) You do not have line of effect to any bones inside their body.
If you did, then Mage Hand would the be insta-win.

I squeeze his carotid arteries with 1/2 lb of force.

Or even better:

I tear a 1/16 inch rip in a blood vessel in his brain.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-23, 07:08 PM
Sorry, I think I'm missing the point. Why is the Paladin-Dip worth losing two caster levels? I don't see that much of a benefit, but yearn to be enlightened.

Your casting stat to all saves makes it a lot easier for you to make saves vs those Save or Screwed spells that will be getting tossed at YOU. Also, the +3 Fort just from Pal, nevermind the bonus, is very handy for resisting, among other things, Stinking Cloud and most Death effects.

Furthermore, it lets you pick up Eldrich Knight PrC, which means higher BAB and mostly full spellcasting.

AmberVael
2008-11-23, 07:29 PM
Your casting stat to all saves makes it a lot easier for you to make saves vs those Save or Screwed spells that will be getting tossed at YOU. Also, the +3 Fort just from Pal, nevermind the bonus, is very handy for resisting, among other things, Stinking Cloud and most Death effects.

Furthermore, it lets you pick up Eldrich Knight PrC, which means higher BAB and mostly full spellcasting.

That makes a nice Gish, but I don't think that's what is being aimed for here...

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-23, 07:48 PM
That makes a nice Gish, but I don't think that's what is being aimed for here...

If you're going to dip Pal for saves, might as well go the whole distance and get a higher BAB in the process.

Zeful
2008-11-23, 08:24 PM
Except there's the fact that you lose out on almost all of your spells known going down the Eldritch knight route, as said PrC doesn't advance spells known.

AmberVael
2008-11-23, 08:27 PM
If you're going to dip Pal for saves, might as well go the whole distance and get a higher BAB in the process.

I'll grant that. I'm questioning the idea as a whole. :smallyuk:

If you want to be a main caster, dumping two levels into paladin and then more into Eldritch knight isn't necessarily the best idea.

Hal
2008-11-23, 08:32 PM
Sorry, I think I'm missing the point. Why is the Paladin-Dip worth losing two caster levels? I don't see that much of a benefit, but yearn to be enlightened.

What Zeful said. You do lose two caster levels, but you still get 9th level spells, you'll gain full BAB from the paladin levels (plus other aspects of it), but the best part is your Cha-bonus to all saves. Since Cha is your casting stat, it's likely you're pumping it high. Having a permanent +5 or more to your saves is going to help anyone.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 08:33 PM
Your casting stat to all saves makes it a lot easier for you to make saves vs those Save or Screwed spells that will be getting tossed at YOU. Also, the +3 Fort just from Pal, nevermind the bonus, is very handy for resisting, among other things, Stinking Cloud and most Death effects.

Furthermore, it lets you pick up Eldrich Knight PrC, which means higher BAB and mostly full spellcasting.

No 9th level spells.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 08:47 PM
Paladin sounds good in theory. But seriously, you are level 12, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 6th level spells. You are level 13, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 7th level spells.

Being a spell level and a half behind is bad.

You want Cha to saves? Take the Sorcerer spell that gives you Cha to saves as an immediate action. Sure it's a lot of 4th level slots, but you make up for it by having 5th level slots.

Zeful
2008-11-23, 08:49 PM
Paladin sounds good in theory. But seriously, you are level 12, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 6th level spells. You are level 13, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 7th level spells.

Being a spell level and a half behind is bad.

You want Cha to saves? Take the Sorcerer spell that gives you Cha to saves as an immediate action. Sure it's a lot of 4th level slots, but you make up for it by having 5th level slots.

The two levels of paladin is good because of the Cha to saves. But your better off taking it after you hit level 18 if at all. If only for the slower progression.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 08:56 PM
Paladin sounds good in theory. But seriously, you are level 12, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 6th level spells. You are level 13, you have access to 5th level spells. Your Wizard buddy has 7th level spells.

Being a spell level and a half behind is bad.

You want Cha to saves? Take the Sorcerer spell that gives you Cha to saves as an immediate action. Sure it's a lot of 4th level slots, but you make up for it by having 5th level slots.

Ruin Delver's Fortune?

Does a lot more than just give charisma to saves, but not core.

Weiser_Cain
2008-11-23, 09:07 PM
I like shadow conjuration and other multitask spells and Magic Missile.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 09:23 PM
The two levels of paladin is good because of the Cha to saves. But your better off taking it after you hit level 18 if at all. If only for the slower progression.

In other words, you should never take it because you will never get to level 20 ever. Gotcha.

Triaxx
2008-11-23, 10:14 PM
I always figured they simply counted as attended. Ah well. I'll just call it a house rule.

And on the subject of Will-o-wisps:


A will-o’-wisp is immune to most spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except magic missile and maze.

fliprushman
2008-11-24, 01:55 AM
I would actually like to know what the rest of the party makeup is before we say what is viable and what is not.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 8/ Eldritch Knight 10 may be a good build for the group.
This build would have some great saves, can heal himself some, swing a weapon, and can cast 8th level spells.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-24, 02:07 AM
I would actually like to know what the rest of the party makeup is before we say what is viable and what is not.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 8/ Eldritch Knight 10 may be a good build for the group.
This build would have some great saves, can heal himself some, swing a weapon, and can cast 8th level spells.

I personally think 9th level spells are better.

mabriss lethe
2008-11-24, 02:27 AM
Shadow conjuration, shadow conjuration, shadow conjuration.... I can't say it enough. It's one of the bread and butter sorceror spells. With one spell known, you can...just in core... mimic over a dozen different spell effects. If you're an arcane caster of any sort, it's worth it to invest in at least one of the spells in the Shadow line. (I tend to like the conjuration effects more than the evocation effects)

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-24, 02:28 AM
I agree with Stupendous Man here (admittedly, I don't really like multi-classing that much anyway, but I'd still sooner avoid losing spell slots).

Uin
2008-11-24, 05:56 AM
fliprushman asked for the rest of the party members, from what I can gather it may look like this:

Orc Barbarian
Human Ranger
Cleric

Thats all I know so far. So, spells I will change are:

1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
(Identify to Protection from Evil)
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
(Shatter to Sorching Ray)
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
(Dispel Magic to something once I have Greater)
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate
(Greater Dispel Magic @13)

My next spell at lvl 13 WILL be Greater Dispel Magic. I'll keep Dispel Magic until then, the DM may ask me to dispel something.

Oh, I don't fancy being a paladin. I don't like poles in uncomfortable places.

MustacheFart
2008-11-24, 07:35 AM
I've knocked dragons out of the sky with it (provided they don't have maneuverability feats or that one magic item) since you can cause them to stall. Its pretty badass, IMO.

Not to intrude on this guys topic but I'm very curious to know why SF would knock a dragon out of the sky? I can understand stalling but is that ultimately a DM call?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-24, 07:42 AM
Not to intrude on this guys topic but I'm very curious to know why SF would knock a dragon out of the sky? I can understand stalling but is that ultimately a DM call?It's confusing. You have to check the section in the SRD on Tactical Ariel Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) to note the part that says that without a minimum amount of movement, a flier will fall, then compare that with the Dragon's statblock. But yes, Solid Fog or any other movement limiter that drops a 'standard' dragon below 30' move per round will make it fall.

Zen Master
2008-11-24, 08:17 AM
Line of effect is easy enough if you require a touch attack. And can a bone be picked up and used as a weapon? Then it's an object.

A side of ham can be picked up and used as a weapon. That doesn't mean that your thigh is an object. And even so, you cannot actually reach in and touch the bone. No part of a living creature is an object.

Zeful
2008-11-24, 12:49 PM
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 8/ Eldritch Knight 10 may be a good build for the group.
This build would have some great saves, can heal himself some, swing a weapon, and can cast 8th level spells.

You can't cast above 4th level spells with that build. Eldritch Knight doesn't advance spells known.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-24, 02:46 PM
You can't cast above 4th level spells with that build. Eldritch Knight doesn't advance spells known.

Yes it does. It advances spells known as it advances caster level, which is to say, 9/10

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 02:53 PM
Yes it does. It advances spells known as it advances caster level, which is to say, 9/10

Nope. It doesn't say that. That's the typical wording in PrCs, but Eldritch Knight lacks that. It says:

Spells per Day

From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
It also lacks errata, from what I can tell.

monty
2008-11-24, 03:05 PM
Yes it does. It advances spells known as it advances caster level, which is to say, 9/10

Caster level != spellcasting level.

Triaxx
2008-11-24, 03:49 PM
A side of ham can be picked up and used as a weapon. That doesn't mean that your thigh is an object. And even so, you cannot actually reach in and touch the bone. No part of a living creature is an object.

I disagree, but meh.

fliprushman
2008-11-24, 04:00 PM
Nope. It doesn't say that. That's the typical wording in PrCs, but Eldritch Knight lacks that.

If this were the case, then Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, Thaumaturgist, and Eldritch Knight all suffer the same problem but the Archmage and Loremaster are immune to this effect because they added "(and spells known, if applicable)".

The Only reason they added these lines is because those classes add or subtract spells known but it doesn't change how all those other classes gain spells per day and spells known.

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 04:07 PM
If this were the case, then Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, Thaumaturgist, and Eldritch Knight all suffer the same problem but the Archmage and Loremaster are immune to this effect because they added "(and spells known, if applicable)".

The Only reason they added these lines is because those classes add or subtract spells known but it doesn't change how all those other classes gain spells per day and spells known.

Thaumaturgist is a Divine casting class. In core, divine casters know all their spells, so the lack doesn't matter.

But yes, Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and Eldritch Knight are not listed as granting spells known. Ridiculous, I know, but that's what is written.
I'll note that every single PrC in complete arcane specifies that it advances spells per day AND spells known.
As I have found no errata, and since Loremaster and Archmage specify spells known while the other core PrCs do not, I have to assume that Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and Eldritch Knight do not advance spells known as per RAW.

I would personally revise that, and I'm sure most people do, but by RAW? No, they don't grant any increase in spells known.

MustacheFart
2008-11-24, 11:10 PM
It's confusing. You have to check the section in the SRD on Tactical Ariel Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) to note the part that says that without a minimum amount of movement, a flier will fall, then compare that with the Dragon's statblock. But yes, Solid Fog or any other movement limiter that drops a 'standard' dragon below 30' move per round will make it fall.

Ok, I haven't clicked on the link you posted yet but does what you said mean if a "normal" dragon that is flying doesn't move in a round by his own volition he then falls? What I'm saying is, does that mean a normal dragon can NOT sit up at 120 feet breath attacking without moving? Or are we to assume that while he's "hovering" he's flapping his wings; thus, moving and only a forced impairment will make him do otherwise?

I gotta kill a CR 18 Black Dragon eventually, that's why I am asking; although, it probably doesn't matter much as I bet he doesn't under the category of "normal" dragons.

Keld Denar
2008-11-25, 12:54 AM
Ok, I haven't clicked on the link you posted yet but does what you said mean if a "normal" dragon that is flying doesn't move in a round by his own volition he then falls? What I'm saying is, does that mean a normal dragon can NOT sit up at 120 feet breath attacking without moving? Or are we to assume that while he's "hovering" he's flapping his wings; thus, moving and only a forced impairment will make him do otherwise?

I gotta kill a CR 18 Black Dragon eventually, that's why I am asking; although, it probably doesn't matter much as I bet he doesn't under the category of "normal" dragons.

It all depends on the dragons maneuverability class. If it has fly:good or better, or the Hover feat, then yea, it can hold still in mid air and blast away. But, if it doesn't, it has to take a certain amount of forward movement each round or "stall" which is basically freefall with a reflex save to pull out of it.

Thats where the glory of Solid Fog comes in. You cast the fog above the dragon, so that only the bottom front 10' of the cloud and the top back 10' of the dragon overlap. Since part of the dragon is in the cloud, the movement reducing effects affect all of it. The dragon takes its move action to move 5' forward or downward and its standard action to move 5' forward and or downward and drops out of the cloud. It goes into a stall, and proceeds to freefall. I forget the exact rules for how far something falls per round, but I think its like, 120' in the first round, more in the 2nd. If its less than 120' feet above the ground, you've grounded it. If its more, it gets a reflex save to pull out, but you can easily repeat the trick if it suceeds. The best part about it is, there is not save, and no SR to check. Just sit yo butt down, please!

Of course, this is easily defeated if your dragon takes the feat Hover from the MM, and they have plenty of feats to do so with. Alternatively, the dragon could have a Petoral of Flight from the Dracinomicon, which increase the maneuverabilty catagory by one, which for most dragons gets them to good+. And of course, if the dragon has Freedom of Movement of some sort up, then it can ignore the cloud and just keep on moving. Most by-the-book dragons won't have any of these protections up, and thus are vulnerable.

Enjoy!

graymachine
2008-11-25, 10:35 AM
You probably want to ditch Baleful Polymorph until later levels when you can heighten it, or increase your save DC some other way. I say this because the spell has not one, but 2 different saves involved. While it'd be good for dispatching stooges, it's too difficult to plug on a BBEG and thus not worth one of your higher level slots.

Also, have you considered going into the "Wizard" PrC?

Delta Nu Delta
2008-11-25, 10:45 AM
I'd also recommend getting a rod of maximize lesser if you have the budget for it.

Empowered ray of enfeeblement + rod of maximize = 16 point strength penalty. Very nice debuff that you can rely on.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 04:36 PM
You probably want to ditch Baleful Polymorph until later levels when you can heighten it, or increase your save DC some other way. I say this because the spell has not one, but 2 different saves involved. While it'd be good for dispatching stooges, it's too difficult to plug on a BBEG and thus not worth one of your higher level slots.

Also, have you considered going into the "Wizard" PrC?

Except that you don't care if they pass the second save. If they fail the fort they lose all benefits of HD/Templates/Class Features. They can't do anything, and you can pick them up and put them in a sack for eating later.

Thurbane
2008-11-25, 09:49 PM
I disagree, but meh.
You also can't use a 0-level Create Water to fill someone's lungs with water and drown them. If Shatter could cause a subcranial detonation, it would be much higher than second level...save or dies don't start kicking in until 4th level or so.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 09:51 PM
I disagree, but meh.

Very well. Cite the rules that support your position.

pearl jam
2008-12-02, 11:45 AM
I also like to play sorcerors and have been looking for some build ideas. Where can I get the 2 guides the OP mentioned in the first post?

Triaxx
2008-12-02, 12:43 PM
Rules? Who plays with those? Everything is an object taken on it's own. That I'm using shatter on one I can't see but can feel? Nothing against it. Line of Effect is different than line of sight.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 12:47 PM
Rules? Who plays with those?

Screw the rules, I have money.


Everything is an object taken on it's own.

You're an object!

Seriously, dictionary definitions =/= game definitions in DnD.


Nothing against it. Line of Effect is different than line of sight.
And you would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling rules lawyers!

Eclipse
2008-12-02, 12:55 PM
Wow, the bone argument is still going?

Ok, let's make this simple. A bone can be an object, depending on the circumstances.

If it's part of a living creature, it's not an object.

If it's sitting on the ground, and not at all attached to the creature, it is an object.

If it's part of an undead skeleton, it is in some ways treated as an object and in some ways not. (I'm actually fuzzy on this one... undead rules are weird about the object non-object thing... or maybe I'm thinking of constructs. I don't use either very often in my games, so it usually doesn't come up.)

I actually went to look for rules on this in the SRD though... I'm not sure they exist outside of spell descriptions though. Either way, I couldn't find them, and I'm starting to think that the designers actually expected us to use common sense and specific spell descriptions together to determine valid targets.

Of course, I could be wrong and have missed something completely obvious.

Vampiric
2008-12-02, 01:24 PM
I also like to play sorcerors and have been looking for some build ideas. Where can I get the 2 guides the OP mentioned in the first post?

Jinkies! A clue! :smalltongue:

I keep these tucked away in bookmarks....

*searches*

Treantmonk's Wizard Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

TLN's 'Being Batman' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Solo's Sorceror Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

Uin
2008-12-02, 01:27 PM
I played the sorceror. It turned out to be a low magic setting, I have a Cloak of Charisma +2, Ring of Protection +2 and a Heward's Handy Haversack, nowt else. I cast my first ever 6th level spell however, a 24d6 Disintegrate, used grease and slow to great effect and floated around like M Bison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vega_animated_movie_face.png) the entire time.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 01:35 PM
Solo's Sorceror Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

Zoinks! It's started spreading to other forums.

ericgrau
2008-12-02, 04:04 PM
Put identify on scrolls not your spell list. You're already paying 100gp anyway, another 25gp doesn't hurt. And you don't use it every day.
See invisiblity, shatter likewise go on a scrolls. Your spell list is limited; don't pick anything that won't get daily use. You did a good job of not picking redundant spells, though. That's also part of it. I'd keep both invisibility and greater invisibility though; invis's duration is handy. So outside of the 3 I mentioned those seem like good spells. Sure there are other good ones too, but don't let people tell you to pick the exact same ones as everyone else.

Feats: Don't forget to empower your rays of enfeeblement :). It doesn't look like you'll be extending too many spells; I'd just pick up a metamagic rod of lesser extend instead and save a feat. Empower and heighten are good. Now that I remember disintegrate is also transmutation, I see why you picked that for spell focus. Naturally spell penetration will be good if you face lots of SR, and not if you don't. Don't get +1 or +2 feats out of fear of facing something one time; even when it finally happens that +1 or +2 won't tip the scales.

Gear: Lots of low level scrolls, for reasons hinted at. Good for odd situations. Cha boost, con boost of course. Ring of protection +1 or +2, maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone. It's far cheaper & more effective to spread out your bonuses than get one big item. Keep weapon(s) at masterwork, no more. Other little spell items besides the scrolls are good too.

mostlyharmful
2008-12-02, 04:09 PM
See invisiblity, shatter likewise go on a scrolls. .

I always put Shatter on my list of knowns, its just so versatile. It quickly loses out on a battlefield save-or-suck since the DC doesn't scale but the options it opens up to an ingenious caster outside of combat is nigh endless. Lead off with a very effective Knock effect, add in a Sink Ship effect, then a humiliate sitting in a chair BBEG effect, tack on a destroy structural integraty effect and an unchain the princess type effect... Shatter's a great spell, you just need to recognize how many objects your PCs and NPCs interact with all the time.

monty
2008-12-02, 04:13 PM
Then there's greater shatter, also known as disintegrate. I love that spell.

mostlyharmful
2008-12-02, 04:14 PM
Then there's greater shatter, also known as disintegrate. I love that spell.

Not worth the +4 level for me. the key fun of Disintegrate's much the same as the idea behind the best uses of Shatter but +4 for Ch£%$ts sake??? Not to mention Warlocks get it at level 1 for infinate uses.:smallannoyed: