[4E] Class Brainstorming: Dungeoneer

[chronoplasm]

OK, so I want to come up with a new arcane defender as an alternative to the Swordmage. Why? Forced symmetry. There will be two arcane controllers (Wizard and Sorcerer) and two arcane leaders (Bard and Artificer) as of PHB II. That means that we need another arcane striker and another arcane defender. Arcane striker is easy; Arcane Archer. Another arcane defender though?

My idea is the Dungeoneer. Dungeoneers may have been explorers or miners at some point, but through some fluke they have become magically connected to the ground. They are able to use this power to create walls and manipulate terrain features in order to stave off enemies and protect allies.

Ideas:


A lot of your powers will involve creating walls and pits.
The Dungeoneer can also summon towers, bridges, doors, and pillars.
Your challenge actually creates a physical barrier surrounding you and your mark.
You get a lot of area attacks that involve slamming the ground with your hammer to create earthquakes, avalanches, volcanic eruptions, etc.
I'd like to figure out some way for the Dungeoneer to use the terrain as an implement, but I'm not entirely sure how that would work.
Perhaps the Dungeoneer can summon mounts which could include giant Moles, Ants, and Worms.
As a Dungeoneer, you would probably want to use a hammer or a pick as your weapon.


Favored races for the Dungeoneer would be Dwarf and Dungeonborn.
However, I think it could be pretty cool to have a Dragonborn Dungeoneer and a Dungeonborn Dragoon in the same party.

Any suggestions?
Should I bother going through with this project?

[Ziegander]

First, it seems much to specific to be a base class. Second, it still sounds like a controller to me. :smallannoyed:

Concept of an arcane defender - uses magic to protect himself and allies, and to concentrate fire on single troublesome foes, and concentrate troublesome fire onto himself.

Swordmage leans on controller and striker precepts, so another arcane defender might lean on leader precepts.

So... a magical defender with leader-ish qualities. Sort of the arcane Paladin. How might this work, and how might the flavor be different from the Paladin? I think with the right direction your vision of a Dungeon Mage can certainly be realized within the more generic class. We want a utilitarian spellcaster that's tough and always prepared. Leads courageously, but also intelligently. I'm thinking Intelligence primary, Charisma and Constitution secondary. OR Constitution primary, Int/Cha secondary.

[chronoplasm]

All the arcane classes have a splash of controller regardless of their role, just like all the divine classes have a splash of leader and all the martial classes have a splash of striker. I assume that all of the primal classes will have a splash of defender (Barbarians with their high defenses, Druids with their wildshape, etc.)

I agree that it is too specific so far (flavor-wise at least.)

OK, so I'm going to refine this idea a little more to fit with the idea of an arcane defender...

As a Dungeoneer, you manipulate terrain features to keep marked enemies at arm's length. With 'Ring of Fire' for example, you create a circle of flames around a close burst zone, and any enemies that try to leave or enter that zone get burned.

I think it should be easy enough to separate the Dungeoneer from the Paladin; the Paladin heals and buffs allies, while the Dungeoneer creates walls and towers to help allies.

I'm thinking Wisdom as the primary stat (same stat used for Dungeoneering checks) with Intelligence and Strength secondary/tertiary.

[Ziegander]

You're thinking in terms of all members of the class being Dungeon Delvers. That's like if the Fighter class were all supposed to be Royal Soldiers.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with the "all Arcane have a splash of controller, all martial have a splash of striker, etc..." idea. You have some evidence, but there aren't enough classes for the power sources yet to have any idea that this is true. There are only two divine classes, one of them is a Leader. There are kind of four arcane classes, one of them is a Controller, but nothing about Bard or Artificer seems to indicate that either will lean toward Controller (except the past Fascinate ability of the Bard, but... that's sort of reaching). The Warlock doesn't seem very controlling to me, nor does the Warlord seem at all striker-ish.

I gotta suggest getting away from the Dungeoneer concept for now and concentrating on a more generic one. Like I said, if the class is made right, it should be easy for a player to design a "Dungeoneer" out of the more generic class by providing some thematic powers and including Dungeoneering in the skill set. Dungeoneers also seem like they would be good at some leadership qualities so I think an Arcane Defender, secondary Leader is a good way to start.

[Reverent-One]

You're thinking in terms of all members of the class being Dungeon Delvers. That's like if the Fighter class were all supposed to be Royal Soldiers.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with the "all Arcane have a splash of controller, all martial have a splash of striker, etc..." idea. You have some evidence, but there aren't enough classes for the power sources yet to have any idea that this is true. There are only two divine classes, one of them is a Leader. There are kind of four arcane classes, one of them is a Controller, but nothing about Bard or Artificer seems to indicate that either will lean toward Controller (except the past Fascinate ability of the Bard, but... that's sort of reaching). The Warlock doesn't seem very controlling to me, nor does the Warlord seem at all striker-ish.

I think he might have something of a point. I can't speak for bards, but you could say artificers have a splash of control quite easily, quite a few of their powers are blasts and bursts,just compare them to the Warlord and the Cleric and you'll see that.

[Vadin]

Favored races for the Dungeoneer would be Dwarf and Dungeonborn.
However, I think it could be pretty cool to have a Dragonborn Dungeoneer and a Dungeonborn Dragoon in the same party.

It feels really cool having someone else want to include something you made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4411446&postcount=1) in something of theirs.

When looking at how to use terrain as an implement, don't think of it as "Branches? This power. Spider webs? This power." Make powers with flavor that lets it be branches OR spider webs (both purely for the sake of example, of course).

[chronoplasm]

I think I'd like to keep the name Dungeoneer, but I certainly agree with making it more broad in scope.
Maybe they don't have to all be dungeon delvers, but some could be dungeon architects? What's important here is that they do things that involve 'dungeons', in the sense that dungeons are a series of rooms you explore filled with traps, hazards, and monsters.

They should get things like...

Deep Trouble
Encounter. Arcane, Weapon
At-Will
Target: One creature.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W]+Strength modifier damage.
Effect: The ground around you becomes a pit. All squares withing a close burst 3 area lower by 1+wisdom modifier squares.

Sorry if that's not templated correctly.

[Ziegander]

I think he might have something of a point. I can't speak for bards, but you could say artificers have a splash of control quite easily, quite a few of their powers are blasts and bursts,just compare them to the Warlord and the Cleric and you'll see that.

I just think that's an exceptionally limited design view if that truly is what WotC has in mind, and even if that is what WotC has in mind it would be terribly restrictive for homebrewers to think that they have to keep such an idea in mind. That makes concepts like a Martial Striker/Leader, or a Divine Controller/Defender, or an Arcane Defender/Striker all of a sudden impossible.

Anyway, to better illustrate what Chrono's original idea brings to my mind, I've put together a bare bones skeleton of my vision of such a class:

The Overseer

Role: Defender. Your attack powers keep your enemies where you can see them, and the magic behind the attacks stops enemies from doing much harm to your allies.
Power Source: Arcane. You have studied practical magics to protect you and your allies in combat, and to help with navigating all sorts of terrain.
Key Abilities: Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged, Military Melee
Implements: Orbs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 8 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: Choose five from the following - Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Insight, Perception, Stealth.

I'm seeing a sort of combat ready Oracle type class. Lots of divination type utilities, and powers that can help take advantage of terrain. I'm seeing a spellcaster that fights with an Orb in the off-hand, and a heavy weapon in the other. With Constitution as primary attribute, Hammers, Axes, Picks are attractive because of the related feats. The leader elements would come in the form of movement oriented bonuses and help shrugging off status effects rather than healing or temp hps.

[Reverent-One]

I'm thinking the character concept would revolve around land shaping in general, not necessarily related to dungeons. There would probably be an offensive build, with mostly melee attacks, and a defense build, which hindered enemies to keep them focused on you.

EDIT:

I just think that's an exceptionally limited design view if that truly is what WotC has in mind, and even if that is what WotC has in mind it would be terribly restrictive for homebrewers to think that they have to keep such an idea in mind. That makes concepts like a Martial Striker/Leader, or a Divine Controller/Defender, or an Arcane Defender/Striker all of a sudden impossible.

Never meant that all classes would have to follow the pattern, but that the power sources naturally lend themselves well to such combinations.

[chronoplasm]

I'm thinking the character concept would revolve around land shaping in general, not necessarily related to dungeons. There would probably be an offensive build, with mostly melee attacks, and a defense build, which hindered enemies to keep them focused on you.


That sounds like a pretty good idea.

I think using hammers, picks, and axes would be a lot easier to do for implements and it makes a lot of sense, but I kind of prefer orbs as a wizard-only implements.

Anyway, heres an idea...

Trap Challenge
Whenever you mark an enemy, you may place a trap within 10 squares. Whenever you place a new trap, any prior traps you placed fall apart.
Whenever a marked enemy makes an attack that does not include you, your trap may make an attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
Choose one of the following traps:

Dragon's Eye
Blaster Trap
Trap: A glowing red sphere on a pedestal occupying 1 square.
Trigger: A marked enemy makes an attack that does not include you.
Target: The creature that triggered the trap.
Attack: +4 vs. Reflex
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged
Hit: Target is dealt 1d10 fire damage.

...I don't actually have four traps for you right now, but I will later.

[Ziegander]

I'll try and continue to help you flesh this idea out, Chrono, but I'll take my idea to a new thread, since we don't seem to see eye to eye.

Traps could be quite an interesting new mechanic, similar to the new keyworded powers in Martial Power.

[chronoplasm]

I'll try and continue to help you flesh this idea out, Chrono, but I'll take my idea to a new thread, since we don't seem to see eye to eye.

Traps could be quite an interesting new mechanic, similar to the new keyworded powers in Martial Power.

I don't think that's necessary. Sometimes the best ideas are born from disagreements. Conflict can often cause beautiful things to happen.

[Reverent-One]

Anyway, to better illustrate what Chrono's original idea brings to my mind, I've put together a bare bones skeleton of my vision of such a class:
*snip for space*


I don't think your idea is a bad one, but neither is chronoplasms. There is one issue with yours though, that they don't even have hide armor proficency, much less heavy armor. A defender's main thing is to be in the front lines and take hits, it should be able to have all types of armor, or at least all types but the very heaviest.




That sounds like a pretty good idea.

I think using hammers, picks, and axes would be a lot easier to do for implements and it makes a lot of sense, but I kind of prefer orbs as a wizard-only implements.

What implements does the swordmage use? The fact that a defender would need to be able to use melee weapons restricts our choices, I like the idea of staffs myself, but I don't see that working.



Trap Challenge
Whenever you mark an enemy, you may place a trap within 10 squares. Whenever you place a new trap, any prior traps you placed fall apart.
Whenever a marked enemy makes an attack that does not include you, your trap may make an attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
Choose one of the following traps:

Dragon's Eye
Blaster Trap
Trap: A glowing red sphere on a pedestal occupying 1 square.
Trigger: A marked enemy makes an attack that does not include you.
Target: The creature that triggered the trap.
Attack: +4 vs. Reflex
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged
Hit: Target is dealt 1d10 fire damage.

...I don't actually have four traps for you right now, but I will later.

I do like the use of traps. I thought of that myself, but thought "Traps? Nah, those are martial things", neglecting to think about magic traps. In this case, Dragon's Eye is, I think, too powerful. 1d10 damage? A fighter gets a free attack and a paladin gets a little automatic damage, but they have no choice in the effect, if you're going to go the path of a variety of traps available, their effects should be somewhat weaker than what the other classes have, the benefit being you have several choices.

[chronoplasm]

In this case, Dragon's Eye is, I think, too powerful. 1d10 damage? A fighter gets a free attack and a paladin gets a little automatic damage, but they have no choice in the effect, if you're going to go the path of a variety of traps available, their effects should be somewhat weaker than what the other classes have, the benefit being you have several choices.

Good thinking.
Would 1d6 for that particular trap be a bit better?

[Reverent-One]

Good thinking.
Would 1d6 for that particular trap be a bit better?

I would say yes (then d8 at 11, and d10 at 21), and additionally would have it be making a standard attack roll using your modifier for such an attack (wisdom, I think you said you want to use). A simple +4 will become useless in the higher levels, as the monsters' defenses go up.

[Ziegander]

An ability modifier +2 vs Reflex would be good, increasing from d6, to d8, to d10 as suggested, and from +2, to +4, to +6 vs reflex.

I'd like to see what else you have in mind for the Trap Challenge (maybe come up with a better name, Trap Challenge does make it sound almost too martial. Is there a good word for a magical trap?). Probably some ice ray that can slow. Maybe an electric ray that bestows a further penalty to attacks for 1 round. Maybe a force blast that knocks prone, or pushes?

[chronoplasm]

Does 'Dungeon Challenge' sound better?

I'm thinking that the four traps should each be based on the four roles for traps:
Blaster (already have that with Dragon's Eye, just needs tweaks)
Lurker
Obstacle
Warder

[Ziegander]

Ah, yeah, okay, that makes sense.

EDIT: Oh, but I'm not sure about Dungeon Challenge. I suppose it's better than Trap Challenge, but not by much.

What about... ? Hrm... nope, I've got nothing.

[Lysander]

What about this for an ability:

Depths of Ignorance
Dungeoneers have the ability to confuse foes, and leave them lost and imperiled underground. Upon striking a foe with any melee attack conduct an opposed INT roll. If your enemy loses they suffer a negative modifier to Knowledge: Dungeoneering for one hour. The modifier is -1 for every three levels of Dungeoneer. Multiple hits do not stack.

[Arbitrarity]

Harrying Construction?

Persistent Obstacle?

Hm. Debuff traps would be good, but remember to limit everything. Push effects to very limited extent, etc. Also, remember to set ranges, to add interesting tactical elements.

[Reverent-One]

Arcane harrasment, perhaps?