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View Full Version : The Overseer (4E, Arcane Defender)



Ziegander
2008-11-23, 03:27 AM
So, this is my idea that sprung from Chronoplasm's Dungeoneer concept. I personally feel that this idea is more generic and can fit in a dungeon delver type character while allowing for a more broad scope of characters. It is a tough and vigilant spellcaster with divination, abjuration, and terrain based magic.

The Overseer

Role: Defender. Your attack powers keep your enemies where you can see them, and the magic behind the attacks stops enemies from doing much harm to your allies.
Power Source: Arcane. You have studied practical magics to protect you and your allies in combat, and to help with navigating all sorts of terrain.
Key Abilities: Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Light Shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged, Military Melee
Implements: Orbs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 8 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: Athletics, Endurance, and choose four from the following - Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Insight, Intimidate, Nature, Perception, Streetwise.

Build Options: Worldly Overseer, Courtly Overseer
Class Features: Vigilant Challenge, Overseer's Intuition, Overseer's Orb

Vigilant Challenge
Whenever you attack an enemy, whether you hit or miss that enemy becomes marked by you until the end of your next turn. While a foe is marked by you, you ignore any concealment, invisibility, or insubstantiality of the marked foe.

Additionally, if a foe marked by you makes an attack that does not include you as a target any allies attacked by the foe ignore any concealment, invisibility, or insubstantiality of the marked foe, and cannot be marked by that foe until the ends of their next turns.

Overseer's Intuition
Choose one of the following options.

Trapsense - You and any adjacent allies add your Wisdom modifier to defenses against attacks made by traps and to skill checks made to overcome traps.

Detect Deceit - You and any adjacent allies add your Charisma modifier to defenses against attacks made during a surprise round.

Overseer's Orb
As long as you carry an Orb implement you may add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to your AC. Further, as long as you carry an Orb implement in one hand, and a weapon in the other, you may add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to melee attack and damage rolls made as part of a basic attack.



(I'm not entirely sure about the choices for Overseer's Intuition, Detect Deceit seems to be clearly the better option, but at least the flavor is right. I'm also not entirely sure I'm going to go through with completing this class, I suppose it depends on the quantity and quality of feedback. I appreciate hearing any thoughts, and if anyone wants to help me through the exhaustive task of generating powers, please, please feel welcome to do so! :smallbiggrin:)

Reverent-One
2008-11-23, 03:37 AM
I'll mention the same issue I said in the other thread, I think it should have more armor proficencies, all of them perferably.

EDIT: I'll have more feedback on the class features later, I'm off to bed now.

Reverent-One
2008-11-23, 01:34 PM
As for the class features,

First off, I don't think Detect Deceit is the obvious choice over Trapsense. DD will give you a defense bonus in one round that may not come up in any battle, and since surprise rounds only allow for one action, unless the ambush is a really good one, the surprise round would probably just be positioning for the melee enemies with some ranged attacks from others. Adding onto that, it requires adjectency, but since a surprise round is often a surprise, the players will very possibly will not be able to position themselves to take advatage of it. Both powers are very situational, it just depends which your DM likes throwing at you, if he uses either.

In fact, the major issues I have with your class features is that they are almost all very situational. The marking power? While it sounds like a good idea, percentage-wise, how many enemies make regular use of concealment, invis, or intang have you seen in the games you play? At the very least, I would include the standard -2 to attack anything other than you, and let every ally see past the concealment, invis, or intang in they don't.

Overseer's orb, while being less situational, is a poor substitute for the lack of armor proficency.

I think you need at least one class feature that could regularlly be useful. Since one idea about this class is that they help their friends naviagate terrain, perhaps an abilty, called something like Overseer's Oversight, allowing any ally <instert range or line of sight requirement here> to shift as a minor action. While not gamebreaking, this would be useful, whether to set up for flanking, or letting a ranged chracter shift, then move full speed and still attack.

Ziegander
2008-11-23, 02:23 PM
First off, I don't think Detect Deceit is the obvious choice over Trapsense.

Okay, good.


Both powers are very situational, it just depends which your DM likes throwing at you, if he uses either.

I was worried Detect Deceit was too good, but now I might be able to add something to both of them to make them less situational.


At the very least, I would include the standard -2 to attack anything other than you

This is standard for marking. Anytime anything says, "you mark a guy" that guy takes the -2 penalty. I was just being lazy since marked is a status with it's own rules (that being the rules).


Overseer's orb, while being less situational, is a poor substitute for the lack of armor proficency.

I don't know if it's really a poor substitute. Con is their primary score, and therefore will be their highest score. It will increase their AC to equal or exceed a Swordmage's at 1st level, and it quickly outstrips the bonus from Swordmage Warding.


Overseer's Oversight

I'll certainly think about it. As far as the Worldly Overseer and the Courtly Overseer are concerned, what might I do with the Overseer's Intuition abilities to reflect a Worldly view and a Courtly view?

Reverent-One
2008-11-23, 06:31 PM
I don't know if it's really a poor substitute. Con is their primary score, and therefore will be their highest score. It will increase their AC to equal or exceed a Swordmage's at 1st level, and it quickly outstrips the bonus from Swordmage Warding.

Since the swordmage is a striker, the overseer had better have a higher AC. Such is the role of the defender. Looking at the numbers, it's not as bad as I thought it was, since if an overseer has any bonus to dex or int, they'll get that bonus to AC as well in the light armor. I still think it should have hide proficency as well though.


I'll certainly think about it. As far as the Worldly Overseer and the Courtly Overseer are concerned, what might I do with the Overseer's Intuition abilities to reflect a Worldly view and a Courtly view?

Hmm, what exactly do you want the Worldly and Courtly builds to play like?

Ziegander
2008-11-23, 06:54 PM
Since the swordmage is a striker, the overseer had better have a higher AC. Such is the role of the defender. Looking at the numbers, it's not as bad as I thought it was, since if an overseer has any bonus to dex or int, they'll get that bonus to AC as well in the light armor. I still think it should have hide proficency as well though.

The Swordmage is a defender. And The Overseer will have a higher AC and more hitpoints. If I give out the Hide Proficiency it might be too strong, I looked at the numbers too. With a sufficient Con modifier and a Light Shield an Overseer will only be 1-3 points lower than a Scale/Plate wearer. Not a huge deal I don't think.


Hmm, what exactly do you want the Worldly and Courtly builds to play like?

Not entirely sure. Both will have leadership qualities for a secondary schtick as I had originally planned. Worldly will deal more with terrain, Courtly more with social things. Does that help at all?

Reverent-One
2008-11-23, 07:01 PM
The Swordmage is a defender.

Ah, didn't know that, I misread chronoplasm's first post explaining why he wanted to make another Arcane defender in the other thread, and I don't have the forgotten realms guide.


Not entirely sure. Both will have leadership qualities for a secondary schtick as I had originally planned. Worldly will deal more with terrain, Courtly more with social things. Does that help at all?

A build focused on social skills will be tough, since the powers of a class are pretty much all combat based. I've got to go for now, more ideas later.

Ziegander
2008-11-23, 07:23 PM
A build focused on social skills will be tough, since the powers of a class are pretty much all combat based. I've got to go for now, more ideas later.

Yeah, of course the powers are still going to be combat based, and therefore the class feature should be useful in combat as well, but something with proper high society flavor would be nice. The two builds are focused around "navigating." One through natural setting, the other societal structures.

Mando Knight
2008-11-23, 07:57 PM
Yeah, Swordmages are solidly not strikers. Few of their powers provide multiple damage dice, and their Aegis abilities are both Defender-Controller in nature.

The Overseer doesn't seem like a good choice for a Defender right now--none of its stats are AC stats and they don't get heavy armor, nor do they get proficiency in many melee weapons, so unless their entire power list consists of Close attacks, they're going to have trouble with the thing that Defenders are supposed to do best: stand between the monster and the guys its trying to kill.

Here's a run down on the basic things that a decent defender needs:
1. AC. Most at-will attacks will hit AC or Reflex, so having a high AC and a decent Reflex is a must. High AC is achieved either by increasing Dex/Int or by wearing lots of metal. Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, and Inspiring/Bravura Warlords (Warlords are secondary Defenders, Clerics are either Leader/Defenders (Strength builds) or Leader/Controllers (LAZOR builds)) achieve AC through the second method, Tactical Warlords and Swordmages usually take the latter route.
2. Marking. If you can't make it hard for the monster to hit someone else, you fail Defender 101. This is usually achieved by a Defender's main class feature, but most Defenders and some Leaders have other powers that can mark their target.
3. Melee prowess. Now that you've got the monster's attention, you need to try to kill it without it getting a free attack against you every turn. All three Defenders (and Strength Clerics and Warlords) are quite focused on the use of melee weapons to engage the target, (usually swords, hammers, and axes, though Fighters and Warlords will also occasionally use spears) which will force the target to stop and fight hand-to-hand rather than target the Ranger or Wizard a dozen or so squares away... unless it wants to take both a penalty to attack and potentially trigger a devastating Attack of Opportunity.

So far, your Overseer seems to have only one of these qualities, so it may have problems unless you give it powers that provide it temporary AC bonuses and a large number of Close Burst/Blast powers.

Reverent-One
2008-11-23, 08:52 PM
The Overseer doesn't seem like a good choice for a Defender right now--none of its stats are AC stats and they don't get heavy armor, nor do they get proficiency in many melee weapons, so unless their entire power list consists of Close attacks, they're going to have trouble with the thing that Defenders are supposed to do best: stand between the monster and the guys its trying to kill.

What do you mean they don't get much melee weapon proficency? They've got as much as any of the melee-using base classes, at least the ones from the php.

And with one of their class features, Con becomes an AC stat, which is the main stat. Leather armor (2) + good Con (4) + light shield (1) = 17 at first level, and if they have just a 12 in either dex or int, that becomes an 18, which isn't bad. I still think giving them hide armor proficency would be a good idea though.


Yeah, of course the powers are still going to be combat based, and therefore the class feature should be useful in combat as well, but something with proper high society flavor would be nice. The two builds are focused around "navigating." One through natural setting, the other societal structures.

You could give the worldly overseer the overseer's oversight ability I mentioned, while letting the courtly overseer give allies a bonus equal to it's charisma mod to Diplomacy, Bluff, Insight, Streetwise, and/or Intimidate checks.

Ziegander
2008-11-23, 09:17 PM
You could give the worldly overseer the overseer's oversight ability I mentioned, while letting the courtly overseer give allies a bonus equal to it's charisma mod to Diplomacy, Bluff, Insight, Streetwise, and/or Intimidate checks.

I had thought the very same thing, but then Worldly Overseer becomes the obviously more powerful choice as the Courtly Overseer would have nothing to do with combat, and it needs to. Or do you mean in addition to the standard Intuition abilities I have above?

What do people think of the Challenge? Does it need to be stronger? What might I be able to add to it to improve the defender performance?

Mando Knight
2008-11-24, 12:04 PM
What do you mean they don't get much melee weapon proficency? They've got as much as any of the melee-using base classes, at least the ones from the php.

And with one of their class features, Con becomes an AC stat, which is the main stat. Leather armor (2) + good Con (4) + light shield (1) = 17 at first level, and if they have just a 12 in either dex or int, that becomes an 18, which isn't bad. I still think giving them hide armor proficency would be a good idea though.

Ah... oops. I suppose I skipped over the "Military Melee" line in the description...

Using Con for AC doesn't seem right to me... possibly because of my association of AC with Reflex.

If the character concept is that of a vizier or wise man, then Intelligence becomes a logical choice for the third class statistic rather than Constitution.