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Reinboom
2008-11-23, 06:34 AM
First, I would like to say this isn't edition specific, however, is aimed at D&D (whether you call it D&D or not, so 4e is included, no arguing), or rather the generic world that D&D makes up on its own without expansion. Whether this is a generic greyhawk or other random custom mishap - the generic idea of a world placed by you is what is important.
These questions also except the normal, not the exceptions and "when" expects a level from 1-20 (or higher if that is what you honestly expect).

If this world is not "super high magic everywhere" type world, like old forgotten realms, I would wish to know:
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?
2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.
3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.
4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?
5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?
6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?
7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?


And that is all.
-edit-
Sidenote: These questions also want a world driven by your ideas, not married to your preferred system (but may be directed by it).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 06:55 AM
My DMs run pretty close to WBL, and their settings are pretty magical(one is Faerun, the other is essentially a massive, transdimensional trap for adventurers that's been running for generations, there's lots of magic), so other settings will be different, but...

1:About halfway past level 2, depending on the game and player desire(Masterwork Armor is more important to the Rogue, while a Sorc or Wiz at those levels doesn't care).
2:Level 3, again, depending on exact build, same as a normal +1 weapon.
3:Check the Stronghold Builder's Guide for exact D&D costs, but personally, I'd expect to start around 10 if I'd expressed this desire as a player often. That's about when I'd expect the land to be awarded, with future quests aiding in getting things like inhabitants and the like, clearing out local goblin raiders, and establishing trade. I'd expect it to be done at around 15, with quests based around it continuing until Epic.
4:Could you fight an Army recruit? A Fighter can incapacitate a few commoners if they mob him, kill several if they're coming at him individually, and their victory will be through sheer luck in that case. ToB, Factotem, or Warlock could do even better.
5:Depends on the level. I view level 10 as the upper bounds of realistic human achievement(why I like those levels and design most builds for them), and I'd say before 7 it's impossible, before 9 it's really hard(have to find a Cleric, bribe him, and still deal with the costs), before 15 it's expensive and hurts, and after that it's common.
6:Beowulf. Granted, I would model him as Warblade/Barbarian, but he's the epitome of Fighter IMHO.

Jasdoif
2008-11-23, 07:24 AM
1. Hmm...I'm going to say...level 5. So about the point where, if asked if you were famous, you would honestly need to sit down and ponder it for a while, before realizing that you're probably just there.

2. Also level 5 here. I'm under the impression that magic enhancements of that nature are, effectively, the same as the masterwork stuff above. Just with a magical crafter behind it, instead of a material one.

3. Without being in good standing with someone powerful? Never. Since this is not "no super high magic anywhere", I would surmise that there are caster powerhouses here and there, and they'd certainly be influential (between both power and scarcity). And between them and the rulers they employ (though I expect a fair number are such rulers), I wouldn't expect any sort of labor force to be willing to construct such a fortification without some official backing. To say nothing of the astronomical fees this would involve for a single person who didn't start life with enormous wealth.

4. I would expect a fighter to be significantly stronger than a commoner in a combat situation. Fighter 1 means there's a lot of combat training in their background, so I would expect them to perform better than someone who isn't nearly as dedicated to fighting.

5. This...I think would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Assuming it was possible at all, it would at the very least involve a sidequest. Either making a deal with some angel/devil/deity to perform a task in exchange for the resurrection; or a strike into the underworld or equivalent to extract the person's spirit and then figuring out some way to get a mortal vessel to put it in. Which may involve a deal with some angel/devil/deity, although hopefully they'll have a more trivial task in mind for this one.

6. Huh. I really can't think of one. That's odd....Maybe I'm not familiar with enough fantasy works, or maybe I've yet to see a single character in them that truly epitomizes my concept of a fighter.

7. Kitten rogue, of course.


EDIT: Oh sure, now you add in the "Epitome of" part to question #7 :smalltongue:

7. Wizard and cleric, I'm not seeing much either. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is because of limited repertoire, but in my experience an RPG caster is a lot different than most "literary" casters. The literary figures tend to have an air of mystery about themselves, their abilities and the price they pay for them; whereas an RPG character is especially familiar with all these things, to the point of having mechanical descriptions of each. It takes on a more...utilitarian feel, I think is what I'm trying to say.

As for rogue, my first thought is Garrett from Thief. ...what?

And kitten, well....cats are the exemplars of individuality, it'd be difficult or impossible to identify one cat to mold them all. Incidentally, "The Complete Feline" would be an interesting sourcebook....

AmberVael
2008-11-23, 11:14 AM
1 & 2 - I wouldn't have a set time for expecting such a weapon. While a hero almost always manages to get some special weapon, the 'when' during their tale varies immensely. Some get it earlier on in their training, some receive it after years of hard work.
A hero should not have to depend on their weapon. Gaining such a weapon should affect their abilities, but neither should they be incapable without it.

3 - Assuming I were an adventurer, why would I be keeping all my money unless I'm just greedy? If I were just greedy (as it can be an interesting character trait), I still wouldn't expect to buy a castle for quite some time. Seriously, kings have castles built by drawing on the resources of kingdoms. Even a great hero can't expect to get that kind of money quickly, if ever. Maybe after fighting a dragon they could buy one, or possibly they could get a keep or noble title after doing some quest (and thus indirectly be able to get one).

4 -Depends on your system. If you assume that an adventurer is always greater than the common man, even when he begins, then a fighter should be able to beat the little guy around fairly easily.
However, not all stories go that way. Sometimes the hero was once a common man.

5 - Why should you be able to bring someone back to life? It cheapens things. If you REALLY think someone should be able to do that, reserve it for deities or the most powerful of people (highest level).

6 - Achilles. Hector. Heracles. Gilgamesh. Enkidu.

7 - Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?
Gandalf, Merlin, and possibly Medea. People who get deities to do things for them aren't heroes, heroes do things for themselves, as such, I don't expect clerics to be heroes except in very strange circumstances. Rogues are more difficult as well, but I would imagine people like Odysseus, Robin Hood, and other more cunning fighters would be represented well as Rogues.
As for kittens, I think Ceiling Cat has this one paws down.

AngelSword
2008-11-24, 12:27 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

Without knowing how this comes into play (pun partially intended), I really can't make a gauge on where such items should appear during the course of a campaign. If such items were to take the place of magic items (at least, to an extent), then I'd say they should thus be used in the same fashion.

2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.

I've always had a problem with the notion that magic weapons are just that much better than normal weapons, and have been kicking around the idea of having the equivalent of a "+0 enchantment." Essentially, the weapon doesn't gain any bonuses to hit or damage, but can be enchanted, and is considered magical for the purposes of damage reduction.

I would use them just before a party would typically gain a +1 weapon, but in a setting where magic is less prevalent, I'd likely use it at that point, or shortly thereafter.

3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

When players start getting to the point where they're buying property, it should be in the higher levels. Even in a high magic game where the work could be magically hastened (even by simply increasing the speed of the laborers), the financial investment is a huge one.

4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

The average fighter should be able to take on the average commoner with no problem.

5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

In a low magic setting, I'd say that death is permanent, unless you have a damn good reason to need reviving magic, since it would take months of research and a dragon's hoard worth of gold.

6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

Personally, I'd go with Raphael from the Soul Caliber series, but I like being a prick with my fighters.

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kit

Wizard - Gandalf
Cleric - Father Cortez from "Hunter: The Reckoning: Wayward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=5775940)"
Rogue - Tomi Undergallows (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tomi_Undergallows) from Neverwinter Nights
Kit (http://www.spencer1984.com/image/eb03a.jpg)

Gralamin
2008-11-24, 12:55 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

The best Craftsman of a kingdom produces equipment for level 5. The best craftsman of a continent produces equipment for level 10. The best craftsman of the world produces equipment for level 15. The best Craftsman on planes occupied by non-deities produces equipment for level 20. The best Craftsman on all planes produces equipment for level 25. Gods produce equipment for level 30.

2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.

Level 1 (as loot) to 4.

3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

A castle? Assuming 1 sp/day for the workers, and 50 workers average per year, working 6 days a week, using an earth year, as well as 3 gp/day for low level spellcasters (about 10) to assist (reducing time by roughly 1/2), and a total of 3000 gp of raw materials, I expect it to cost ~52,000 gp to make yourself, and about 100,000 gp to buy (including furnishing and servants). This seems to be Level 9 to about level 15ish to me.

4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

A Level 1 fighter should be able to defeat at least 5 commoners without a problem (IE: not even going down to half health)

5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

It depends. If the campaign has resurrection magic, it is easy enough for the heroes to access if the money is right. If instead, dead is supposed to mean dead, then it would require a huge amount of effort to bring someone back to life.

6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

Fighter to me is just a class that shows a variety of characters. I cannot think of one single character that a fighter should be able to reproduce, but I would expect it to be able to replicate some of the classic mythology heroes (IE: Heracles, Odysseus, Cuchallain) and some newer heroes (IE: Wolverine, in terms of fighting capability and survivability, not in terms of mutations)

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue?

Also very diverse. Wizards, I expect almost any wizardly figure shown in media or in mythology. From Merlin to Will users in Fable.

It is very odd to see a cleric in most media/mythology that I am aware of, so I'd have to say that I expect them to be much like they are in 4E: A healer, and secondary combatant, capable of a variety of interesting abilities.

Rogues: Everything from The Raven to The Dread Pirate Roberts.

Crow
2008-11-24, 01:26 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

I use a stepped system for non-magical weapons that does what you describe. Basically, a truely masterwork weapon will be about on par with a vanilla +2 weapon. In my games, a character might see a weapon like this around 6th level.

The generic +1 and +2 weapon does not exist in my games unless a character makes one. Any enchanted weapon they find will be at least +3 to override the "masterworkmanship".


2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.

Around the same time that you would expect to find a masterwork weapon, maybe a little earlier. I'd say level 5-7.


3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

To do it from scratch, I would expect that you could start seriously considering it around level 9-10, and actually have the wherewithal to do so around 12-13.


4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

About the same as is reflected in vanilla 3.5 D&D.


5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

To bring someone back requires a willing sacrifice. A portion of soul to hold that person's place in the afterlife until they return (to the afterlife). 1 Con for a raise dead, 1d4 for a resurrection, 1d6 for true res. Pared down to 1, 1d2, and 1d3 after my players nearly mutinied on me!


6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

Aspects of Achilles (skill), Conan from Robert E. Howard's works (endurance, cunning), Beowulf (endurance, power).


7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?

Gandalf, (can't think of a cleric), Conan's sidekick from the first movie. All kittens will be replaced by puppies.

Lemur
2008-11-24, 03:00 AM
1. A character could have one at first level if he's of high birth, and has worked it out with the DM. Otherwise, 3rd level is around a good time.
2. No sooner than third level. Fourth or fifth level is reasonable. I'd expect each party member to have their own magic weapon/item by seventh level at the latest, with level six being a better time for each character to have something special.
3. Never really thought about it, but I'll say around 9th level.
4. A first level fighter should have a significant advantage over a commoner, but bad luck (or rather good luck on the commoner's part) should still endanger him. A single commoner should not win under normal circumstances, or even with an ambush most of the time. However, around 3 or 4 commoners should be an even match.
5. I'm not sure how to answer this :\
6. King Arthur and any/all of his knights; Lancelot in particular, with Galahad being more of a paladin than plain fighter.
7. Wizard: Having trouble thinking of what I'd consider the best example, but for now I'll put Carolinus, from the Dragon Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Knight) series here as a placeholder.
Cleric: Don't even have a placeholder for this one, will try to update with something later.
Rogue: Garret from the Thief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(series)) games. There are actually a lot more epitomes of different rogue archetypes, but the "sneaky thief" type that Garret embodies is closest to what I consider the "true" rogue. Other, "secondary" archetypes to consider might include tricksters (such as Loki and Jack of English folklore), charismatic types (Lupin III), and bandit/pirates (Robin Hood, take your pick for pirates)

Xefas
2008-11-24, 03:39 AM
Most of these would vary greatly depending on the tone and/or scale of the game. "Not super high magic" is not really enough information. However, I'm going to assume that you mean a Commoner 1 = Average Joe, no Magic Shop conveniently placed in town, and a general scarcity of adventurers.



1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

Around level 4-6. You can do things by yourself that not even a pitchfork-waving mob of peasants could ever hope to accomplish, you've probably got a few interesting monsters under your belt, and when you knock on the old inexplicably-Asian-in-a-western-European-based-setting man's house and ask for a Masterwork Bastard-Sword to go liberate some slaves from a band of Ogres, his first inclination won't be "Why? So your corpse can look pretty when they're done with you?"



2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.


Around the same time as the "truly masterwork" item. I would think in a non-high magic setting, that spellcasters would be about as uncommon as master craftsman. Or rather, spellcasters willing to craft stuff.



3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

2nd edition put that at around 10th level, right? I think I agree with that. By that time, your escapades should be determining the fate of countries, so it's not unreasonable to be able to simply show up with a Briefcase of Holding full of platinum and buy somebody's castle.

Who's gonna argue with Lladnar the Dragonslayer? Nobody- that's who.


4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

A level 1 Fighter should break a level 1 Commoner in half with his bare hands, no sweat. I see it as the difference between a cubicle worker and a trained Marine. One has combat training, and not just in the dealing/taking damage department, but also keeping cool under pressure and addressing multiple problems simultaneously.



5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

I don't think you should really be doing that kind of thing until level 10+. Plumbing the depths of ancient ruins to activate a portal with a collection of magic tomes you acquired from more than one unfriendly dragon, and then casting yourself bodily into the afterlife to drag your friend's soul back from not just the jaws, but the lower intestines of death itself; or something like that.



6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

I think of William Wallace from Braveheart. Not just buff and good with weapons, but also knowledgeable about combat and able to think quickly in a do-or-die situation. This is why I like Warblades so much. They're not a tin-can with a sword; they're rewarded for being intelligent and are capable of applying a variety of tactics that highlight their expertise and depth of training. Even something as simple as Disarming Strike shows that a Warblade is doing more with his weapon than the average bumpkin, whereas an 18 Strength Commoner and an 18 Strength Fighter both still swing for 2d6+6 damage every round over and over and over.


7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?

Honestly, when I think of a Wizard, I think of...Jafar, from the first Aladdin movie. Maybe just because he's my first memory of a spellcaster, but hes always stuck with me. Subtle and manipulative; perfectly capable of handling normal obstacles with spells you wouldn't even notice occurring. And then, confronted with a heroic ordeal, pulls out the giant fireballs, polymorphing, and so forth.

This is where I think 4th edition had a good concept (though didn't fully realize it). A number of weak at-wills to solidify the fact that "This is a wizard. He never has to contribute by firing a crossbow. There is always something magical he can do". Then, substantially more powerful per day stuff that says "This is a wizard. He's a master of magic, and the arcane energies of the universe are not something to be trifled with. If he wants something to be on fire, it's going to be, and this includes you." There was not, however, a 4th edition daily that turns you into a gargantuan cobra, so something must have been lacking in the execution.

Clerics make me think of Space Marines (and their Chaos equivalent). Or, possibly, Adepta Sororitas (and if they have a Chaos equivalent, Emperor help us all). Let the level 1-5 Adepts be the feeble holymen who cater to their God by healing the townsfolk; Clerics know 100% deep down in their heart of hearts that their God is real, their God's will is absolute, and that death is only something to be avoided because their God still has stuff they need the Cleric to do on the material plane. They're conduits of His power, and at no point should someone be able to look at a Cleric and not believe it to be so.

Rogues? I don't think "Rogue" should be a single class because it evokes in me a few different characters who aren't very similar. I get Solid Snake, Malcolm Reynolds, and Jack Sparrow all at once.

Ummm...I'm not sure about kittens...

CharPixie
2008-11-24, 04:27 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

Fluff-based masterwork? I'd say mid or late in one's adventuring career. If ever. You assume that true masters are rarer than fighters, so true masterwork would be real treasure. It really depends on the campaign world. In Ice and Fire, true masterwork weapons, which happen to be made of magic steel, are rare things, and only even seldom seen in the hands of lords. In Princess Bride, there were only two masterwork weapons, one that belonged to the Count, and one that passed from a father to his son (albiet, tragically). In those examples, possession of the weapons are part of what defines a character. So, for actual masterpiece weapons, then I'd expect similar.

Of course, if you were to define a masterwork weapon a product of a master smith, then they likely would be much more common, and as an exceptional individual earning more gold than most, I'd probably own one quickly. Which is the model I think 3.5 went for, but I prefer the glory of the masterpiece weapon, which is perfection in its craft and rare, too.


2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.

Mild enchantments? In a magical land, I have no problems believing hedge wizards and failed apprentices can still invoke enough magic, for a price, to give crude effects to items.

3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

High level. Late teens in 3e or Epic in 4e. After taking down ancient dragons and saving kingdoms, I might expect to have enough money. However, I'd sooner expect to be granted title in a kingdom and use of a castle, perhaps striped from an evil Baron or such before I could have one build.

4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

Strong enough to win a fair fight almost guaranteed. As I see it, even a level one fighter has enough training or natural skill to be a worth foe, whereas unless the commoner has a trick up their sleave, they should be easily defeated by an armed and armoured warrior.

5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

This is a tricky one. Too easy and it seems trival to come back. Too hard and a player or party may not want to go through it.

I'd say a quest and a sacrifice. In standard d&d, the sacrifice is money, but it can be anything appropiate to the game. The quest shouldn't be that difficult, as if anyone dies, it will suck completely for the questers.

6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

Most of the characters from Ice and Fire. In truth, fighter to me means a character who can fight well enough in Melee to distinguish themselves. I know that there are a good number of Melee classes in D&D, but I see a fighter as the one with the least pretensions, enough so that it can be made into whatever someone wishes it.

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?

Wizard? The Heralds from whatshername's books. Cleric? Characters from Charmed, including some of the Warlocks. Maybe inspiration from movies and television with Angels and Demons, in general -- especially powers granted to Angels and Demons. Rogue? Gangsters, spies. Sweet talkers with sex appeal. The Gypsy from Snatch? Kitten? Worf from Star Trek. Hands down.

arguskos
2008-11-24, 05:08 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?
In D&D 3.5, I tend to award such things around level 2-3, with every weapon in the party being masterwork by around level 5. My reasoning is that powerful people acquire powerful tools, and thus, should have their tools as they rise above the crowd, which comes around level 2-4.


2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.
As above, but advanced a level. Magic is a little harder to come across, since the investment of effort is greater to cause a sword to create fire than it is to craft the blade better. Level 3-5 is when these weapons start coming into play, with level 7 or so being when everything is magical, in some way.


3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.
Castles are the province of kings, barons, and mighty individuals. I'd say that they will begin to enter play for the characters around level 12+, as that's when their power, fame, and fortune will permit them to begin construction on the castle, much less have the followers to build it, and the people to rule over from it.


4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?
Strong in what sense? In the sense of physical strength, he need not be better than the commoner, since training matters more. In the sense of abstract game strength, strong enough to take down numerous commoners before they take him, simply because he is trained to fight multiple opponents, and they aren't trained at all.


5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?
A high priest must intercede with their god on your behalf, and gain you an audience with the god. Then, you must convince the deity that your need is dire, and to grant you the chance to perform a soul quest, which requires that you complete a year-long task for the deity. This task takes place in the timeless plane of the god, and is thematically appropriate for the god. If they succeed (ie. please the god during their quest), the deity will fulfill their request, but take a toll on the asker's life force to do so. If they fail, the god takes the same toll, as payment for his time.


6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?Hmm.... Aragorn, from the Lord of the Rings films of recent days. A really competent fighter, with skills beyond the blade, and some personality to boot.


7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue?
Wizard: Gandalf or Saruman, take your pick. Both are subtle, wise, powerful if needed, though they only reveal themselves in dire moments.
Cleric: I would go with some real life figures, but can't, because of the moratorium on religious discussion by the forum, and the restriction to fantasy by the question, so I have to pass on this one, sorry.
Rogue: I'd go with Blackbeard, Jack Sparrow, Solid Snake, or someone along similar lines.

Hope this helps your survey thingy.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 05:24 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?
2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.
3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.
4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?
5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?
6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?
7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue?



1) Level 2.
2) Level 4.
3) Level 7, without it in any way affecting your ability to obtain needed magical items. This is assuming you are intelligent enough to use magic in some way or another to construct said castle.
4) Should probably have no problem taking 4-5 at a time.
5) Do you know them well? Really easy. Did some guy just run screaming insane out of a forest and ask if you could raise his son, who he think might have died a couple years ago? Moderate difficulty. A couple days work at most.
6) Batman.
7) No fantasy character has ever matched a true Wizard. Probably Odysseus, but less lucky and more flashy. A Rogue and a Fighter are the same thing. I reject your claim that they are different in anyway.

Zen Master
2008-11-24, 05:55 AM
3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.


For this one particularly, my reasoning is:

A dragonhoard should be enough to buy a castle. Manual labor is, in actual fact, dirt cheap, and natural resources are to a certain degree there for the taking. You might need to consult a dwarf on where to quarry rock, and possibly you'd need to oust someone weaker than you to claim the site, but basically, the earth will provide the needed materials - you only need to pay your laborers.

So the answer is - by the level you can reliably down a decent size dragon, say a wyrm or just shy thereof, you should be able to fund a castle.

Of course there are some assumptions in the above. You're obviously not going to be able to pull it off in the heartland of the Kingdom, outside the gates of the capital so to speak.

Also, I'm not assuming a strong, lawful central power - or, if there is such a one, I'm building my castle on the outskirts of its sphere of influence.

My own alignment is negotiable at best, since I'm underpaying my workers, and politely but firmly exiling anyone who happens to be using my site for homes or farms or whatever.

But basically, I think the logic holds. Kill something with lots and lots of gold, find a good spot - voila, castle happens.

EDIT: I forgot to mention - about returning from the dead. Shouldn't happen. Players really (in my personal view) shouldn't see the death of their heroic characters as something trivial to be negated at random, and GM's really shouldn't kill characters unless they intend them to stay dead.

Prometheus
2008-11-24, 05:59 PM
1. A weapon of truly masterwork craftmanship is one that is infused with magic. A masterwork weapon is just the best a commoner who set his mind to the task could do. Masterwork weapons are fairly easy to come by, 1st or 2nd level, while better weapons than that would have to depend on the power level that we are talking.
2. Kind of bizarre question. I certainly can imagine that type of weapon to be readily available in certain parts of the world, but those are the parts of the world that aren't readily available to the other parts of the world. If a player sought them out, maybe 2nd or 3rd level.
3. Good question. I think we tend to assign these things coin values, but in practice it doesn't work like that. You get a castle because of your allegiance to a state, or by good reputation with the royalty. Certainly you could put a price on that kind of allegiance, but that depends on the competition. Or in D&D terms, 100s of thousands of gp.
4. Having training in fighting and generally being in good shape, the fighter should win every time. This would only cease to be true if the commoner had a massive advantage (such as a weapon versus a fighter not trained to be unarmed and unarmored) or the descriptors were misleading (the commoner was really an old war veteran or the fighter training was all underwater combat).
5. In D&D terms it is just 5,000 gp, but usually it more than that. Souls don't always want to come back, or sometimes things stop them from coming back. Generally speaking, this should be a rare and historically relevant event that is much less common than the D&D world would have.
6. A classical or medieval soldier from the lowest to the strongest. Archilles, Ajax, Herucles (maybe?), Odysseus, would be on the list.
7w. Merlin -whatever he could do. Fire, transformations, teleportations, flight, animating objects
7c. Too varied. Gandhi, Catholic Saints, an angry baptist preacher imbued with the ability to smite like Old Testament God. Should be able to exorcise, ward, bless, curse, obtain mental purity, heal, and contact divine beings.
7r. Bilbo Baggins maybe? Someone who uses wit, sneakiness, and the use of magical items to get through puzzles?

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-24, 10:44 PM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games? - Either from an absolutely exceptional backstory (Mother's armor, axe of a treasured mentor), or somewhere after the third or fourth light adventure. 2nd level seems about right.
2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork. - If it's no-more exceptionally balanced than a regular sword, but just emenates great heat, maybe after a few weeks of dedicated adventuring. Level 3 or early into level 4.
3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc. After years of dedicated adventuring and hard-fought campaigns, possibly after building a mutually beneficial relationship with a political entity or very wealthy patron. Level 11.
4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner? A level one fighter should be able to beat up a level 1 commoner any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Heroes are exceptional, and fighters have devoted their years of training to being exceptionally fit. The fighter may not always be stronger than a commoner (there are some *haus* farmhands or longshoremen out there), but the fighter should always have the advantage in a brawl.
5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life? Extreme sacrifice, both in terms of material wealth and dedication to the life-granting patron. I expect the person making the voyage back to the land of the living to go through a tremendous ordeal as well. For most, it is simply a lot easier and more pleasant to stay dead. Only those with the most vital of causes should be looking to thwart death.
6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce? Parn, from Record of Lodoss Wars. Beowulf and Maximus Decimus Meridius are both shining examples as well, but both typify different types fighter paragons.
7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?
Wizard: Merlin or Gandalf - great power taking a back seat to subtlety
Cleric: Cadderly, from the Cleric Quintet. I never really liked that series, but the dude's got the Real Ultimate Powah.
Rogue: Robin Hood or James Bond
Kitten: This one (http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w13/lolrp/cute_animals/cat_cheeseburger.jpg)

Prometheus
2008-11-24, 11:49 PM
I like how we all independently adopted a different notation for referencing and answering the questions.

Satyr
2008-11-25, 02:45 AM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.

I normally try to make every special item - no matter if it is only high quality, magical or just very exotic - as special as possible and like to create a sense of wonder and awe around every such an item. This makes it necessary to make these quite rare, because I believe that a certain exclusivity is very helpful to make an item special. Overuse just banalises them (which is also or even more true for magic in general) and therefore a certain rarity should be an objective; for me, it is better when a character has only one special item that is important aspect of the character instea of a dozen or so items which have deeper meaning beyond a bonus or so.

On the other hand, there are certain story elements or stereotypes in fantasy gaming like the inherited sword. I have no problem with that and would easily give such an item at the character creation when I think it is appropriate for the campaign.

3.
When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.

When I would install my group or a charaqcter with a castle and get the focus more on the Divide et Impere level than most adventures, I would probably use an already existing castle, including the land around it. In 2nd edition, when I remember corectly, a 10th level character automatically gained a stronghold and a number of followers, and I think this is still a good benchmark for such an achievement.


How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?

I am not too fond of a huge gap between normal people and PC's. When the PCs are too strong, they ar no heroes anymore. hjeroism come from beating unlikely odds, nt from being stronger than the opposition. So ideally, an inexperienced warrior should be able to beat a peasant or even two but should have serious troubles when two or more weak opponents coordinate their attacks.
But i srongly prefer more deadly combat systems like Harnmaster or Gurps compared to the very abstract low danger and low suspense systems like D&D.


What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?

Preferably? Extreme effort completely outside of the proportionality, including massive moral dubiety. With the exception of direct revivivification (when the body is still warm), this shpuld not without human sacrifices (13 sounds good) and very dark magic.
Easy revivification is a suspense and drama killer and should be avoided. It hurts the game much more than it helps.


When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?

When I nevision any character, they are exceptional personalities, but certainly not completel larger than life creatures. In my campaigns, there is still a large difference between the campaign world's reality and the romanticised myth and legend; and while the characters are able to inspire such legends, these are norlmally completely overblown and exxagerated. I want to play a heroic character, and that is actively hindered through a surplus of power. To be a hero, you have to overcome yur weaknesses, and grow with the challenges, not because you are stronger by default but because you are determined and willing of personal sacrifice and pain.

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? ? Kitten?

Ideally, spellcasters are sidekicks to the real heros. Killing things with is not heroic, when the risk is not high enough. The perfect cleric is as mundane as a fighter, but strong in his faith and beliefs so he can act as a moral backboen of a group. The ideal mage is an intellectual councellor who contributes more on the information level than in the direct combat. Like above, I pefer to make the supernatural as arcxane and exotic as possible and this is greatly supported by making magic rare and therefore mysteriious to perpetuate a constant sense of wonder. Magic should never degenerate into another regular tool but should always be something, special, weird and even scary. When the players and / or characters are not fascinated anymore by magical occurences, somrthing has been destroyed and lost.

And epitome of kitten is cat stew. Tastes like rabbit, but with a stronger taste like venison. Very recommendable.

Crow
2008-11-25, 03:15 PM
Looking at some of the replies, I think some people are mistaking "masterwork" as the OP describes it, for "masterwork" as D&D describes it.

AmberVael
2008-11-25, 03:30 PM
Looking at some of the replies, I think some people are mistaking "masterwork" as the OP describes it, for "masterwork" as D&D describes it.

Looking over some of the replies, I think most people are basing their answers entirely off of DnD 3.5, rather than suggesting what they would think as most appropriate for a game in general.
Either that or they have been so influenced by DnD 3.5 that they can't imagine a game any other way, but I really hope that isn't the case.

Reinboom
2008-11-25, 06:20 PM
Looking at some of the replies, I think some people are mistaking "masterwork" as the OP describes it, for "masterwork" as D&D describes it.

Thank you for noticing there was a difference. :smalltongue:

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 07:17 PM
Looking over some of the replies, I think most people are basing their answers entirely off of DnD 3.5, rather than suggesting what they would think as most appropriate for a game in general.
Either that or they have been so influenced by DnD 3.5 that they can't imagine a game any other way, but I really hope that isn't the case.

Or it could be the fact that it is explicitly supposed to represent D&D, and heaven forbid we should think that in many aspects 3.5 does a good job representing what D&D should be. I'm pretty sure it makes us bad people to think that.

Tacoma
2008-11-26, 07:01 PM
1. Masterwork: If a masterwork weapon mimicked the effect of a magical weapon, say giving +1 to hit and damage, I'd say it should appear about the same time the best nonmagical armor (full plate or so) can be obtained. Maybe 3rd level for someone dedicated to getting one, maybe by 4th or 6th everyone would have one even if it was a wizard's dagger and he didn't really care that much.

2. Let's say the sword does +1d6 fire damage and the character is already doing say 1d8 + strength bonus + specialization. I'd say +1d6 damage is about as good as +2 hit and damage. Probably +1d8 fire is more equal to +2 hit and damage. So maybe a 5th level character in the group would have one of these weapons. By 8th or 9th level everyone in the group could have one even if they didn't care (probably a wizard's dagger would be electric instead for use in experiments or something or cold damage to stir his drink).

3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? I think a castle that can house perhaps 100 people in everyday quarters including barracks space for most of these to be soldiers, would probably take up a 100' x 100' footprint? So what does it take to build up a whole modern city block in the wilderness or next to a village? I'd say by 15th level you could do it magically for very little money. Maybe by 10th level you could have enough money if you sold a couple magic items (assuming you've been keeping your money amount low by spending money and retaining all the magic items you find). But it represents a choice, in that the character is building his castle instead of keeping some powerful magic items or a whole lot of money.

4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner? The commoner has no armor and his weapons are Simple. The Fighter is a professional murderer with metal armor and excellent weapons. I'd say a Level 1 fighter should be able to kill off a Level 1 commoner and expect to take no damage or perhaps a couple points from a lucky hit. But ten Level 1 fighters should be able to kill off 15 level 1 commoners without danger (not least because they're organized). I think 10 fighters against 20-30 commoners could be an even fight. Anything beyond that in more commoners against 10 fighters, or scaling it down to 1 fighter vs 2 or 3 commoners, and it gets unpredictable.

5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life? This can range from "i cast the spell on my round and stand him up" to "i guess we have to travel to Hades and tame Cerberus because Mort died again". In the game, sometimes characters die and that sucks. But you don't want the average petty noble or successful blacksmith to be able to come back to life. As for NPCs, unless you're a priest or a prince death is death. And at low levels PCs will probably have to deal with death as a finality. But I think giving PCs a special dispensation isn't out of the question. They are after all not just the average dirt-farmers. At some level a Raise Dead should probably just be available and certain events will cause more permanent death. Examples: being kidnapped so raise dead won't help, being digested or disintegrated or thrown in lava so you need a Wish or equivalent, being lost at sea, etc.

6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce? I think the game should be able to produce Conan, Jack Burton, or (the name of Jackie Chan's latest identical character).

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue?
Wizard: Anything from the Dying Earth series, because the game uses Vancian magic. Because of that, other types of wizard don't work quite as well.
Cleric: Clerics aren't well represented in fantasy. They usually have bit roles as witch doctors, medicine men, and advisors.
Rogue: The Grey Mouser is probably my favorite thief. He isn't completely about the knife in the back, because he has ambitions for a good life (of leisure and debauchery) and because of that you can pretty much replicate the Grey Mouser in any game. Maybe that's a strength of Leiber's writing rather than a strength of the game system.

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-26, 07:57 PM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?

This kind of depends on how much time is indicated by "an extended period of time." Do you mean a week? A month? A year? A true master of his craft I think should be able to produce a solidly made weapon (the DnD equivalent of "masterwork") in a week or two--and that would go out to a second or third level character; someone who's done a bit and has some money from it to improve their gear, but not with a major amount of fame yet. If we're talking a month or two's worth of work, I would say this should be equivalent to perhaps a +1 weapon, and go out to an adventurer of level 5-7; getting a reputation and probably with quite a few battles under their belt. A true "masterpiece" weapon would be the kind of things that legends are made of--for example, Masamune--and would go to a level 10 or higher character, and probably take 6-12 months to make if the creator is human. If the creator is a more long-lived race (like a dwarf) perhaps more like three to five years. Item-wise, it would likely be equivalent to a +5 weapon, give or take one or two. Longer lived races would likely produce better weapons as well.


2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.In my ideal setting, this would be the kind of things that crafters would be able to create without being able to cast spells explicitly. A flaming weapon that deals a bit of fire damage... Let's say level 5-7.



3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.Level 10+


4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner? A level 1 fighter is still a newbie, just out of training. He's actually had training though, so I would expect he could beat most commoners without a lot of trouble. At two, I would say he'd have a tough time of it. At three, he should consider running.


5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?The clergymen revive the dead, but require them to provide services to them for a time afterwards, or send them on a quest. It may or may not also involve a rather high fee. After a few resurrections (let's say three) it would be impossible.


6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?Conan the Barbarian comes up quickly, as do mythological figures like Hercules and Sigurd, and video game characters like Kratos.


7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue?
Wizard: Merlin and Gandalf. More Merlin though; Gandalf never actually did a lot of spellcasting; he was just wise and mystical.

Cleric: Harder to say. From video games, I think Rosa from FFIV works well. I can't think of a lot of heroes from mythology that focus on healing and augmentation in mythology off the top of my head...

Rogue: Robin Hood would be a rogue/fighter fusion. Possibly Odysseus too.

rayne_dragon
2008-11-26, 08:06 PM
1. If weapons could be truly masterwork - as in a true master at the craft took an extended period of time to make this weapon - and its benefits showed it, when would you expect to first be able to get such a weapon in most games?
As soon as I had the money for one and could find a master craftsman. I would assume I should be able find the money after a few quests (at least one 'successful', meaning found lots of treasure), while locating the craftsman is mainly a matter of going to a city and/or tracking him down by reputation. Hopefully he'd be willing to make a weapon for me or better yet, have one for sale. I might expect to have to try a few such craftsmen to find one who'd be willing to sell and maybe have to do a favour for him as well. To set a level on this, if I was determined to do it, I would expect it to occur anywhere from half-way through level 1 to level 3.

2. For a given "normal" enchantment of magic, suggesting that the generic +1 Weapon no longer exists anymore... say... a flaming weapon instead. It deals a little bit more that's fire damage. When would you expect to get this weapon? Also, note that it doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork.
Between 2nd-5th levels depending on exactly how much magic is around and how much of a monty haul campaign it is.


3. When would you be able to expect to front the cost of an average sized castle? The kind that, from my research, took 9 years to build on average in medieval England. Specifically, this includes the wage of all the workers and suggesting all the money comes out of your pocket, with no outside help or without being in good (but not bad either) standing with anyone powerful, etc.
After killing a dragon, robbing a kingdom's treasury or discovering how to turn lead into gold. For adventurers who regularly make a hefty profit, I guess levels 9-12 sounds right provided they're not wasting their money on other things... liek being ressurected.

4. How strong/weak would you expect a level 1 fighter be in comparison to a commoner?
I figure a 1st level fighter should take down a commoner 9 out of 10 times at the very least. Three at once makes for an even fight. For comparison, a mage should lose to a commoner 9/10s of the time if they aren't casting spells.

5. What is an example of the difficulty you would make to bring someone back to life?
Undertaking a level appropriate quest... so at level four it might be "kill the ogres in the Forest of Dumb Monsters".

6. When you envision a fighter, that is - just a fighter, which fantasy character do you envision first that is the epitome of such that you would like a game system be able to produce?
King Arthur stikes me as a good example of what a fighter should be able to achieve.

7. Epitome of a Wizard? Cleric? Rogue? Kitten?
Wizard - Merlin.
Cleric - Uh... Redcloak? If you're looking for a non-D&D based example, look at the Brahmins in Hindu legends, particularly the Mahabarata.
Rogue - Jack Sparrow is pretty decent...
Kitten - Mr. Scruffy!!!