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View Full Version : Gestalt build, need help min/maxing



Eloel
2008-11-23, 08:25 AM
I got bored, so I created a 20 monk/20 fighter gestalt build with 36 point buy. I went through feats, magic items and stuff, but it still looks like I'm missing something for damage. Can someone help me please?
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=93207

PS: Any other comments on improving the build is welcome, including comments on magic items and what to buy with the remaining 100k.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 08:29 AM
Yes, you are. A decent class. Fighter and Monk are both good 'secondary' classes in Gestalt, but neither is a good primary class. In Gestalt, you essentially need one class to use your actions on, and one class to help the other class by making those actions better. Swordsage instead of Monk would help, as would snagging a class with more punch than Fighter.

Eldariel
2008-11-23, 08:49 AM
You could actually make it work out decently with that build (not a Gestalt-good build, mind you, but competitive with optimized one-classed melee), but if you're taking 11 levels of Monk, you'd damn better be using that Flurry for something. It's the one good thing about the Monk-class. You could argue that as long as your secondary weapon is compatible with Flurry, you can use Flurry. In that case, I'd go Spiked Chain + Unarmed Strike TWF. That allows decent Power Attack. Also, with Improved Natural Attack and Unarmed Mastery, you'd get two size category improvements to your natural attacks, which would make for some real hits (6d8 base damage, I recall).

Eh, I just realized that your build seems Core 3-onlyish? Is this the case? Because if it is, you'd better get rid of both classes and use some real classes instead. Core pretty much pisses Fighters and Monks in the eye. Fighter gets a lot of feats, but core has like 4 combat feats worth taking (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip), which means the rest of your bonus feats are pretty much wasted (compare the bonuses you get from Weapon Specialization-tree to e.g. Barbarian's Rage and realize how you just wasted all your Fighter-levels. Then compare either of those to Divine Favor, level 1 spell, and realize that you should've just been taking Cleric/Druid-levels all along). And Monk is busy being Monk and getting one useful class feature every 6 levels or so.

Eloel
2008-11-23, 08:52 AM
I'm not using core-only, it's just that they were on easier access that I used mostly them.
Rage is limited per day, and I don't like magic. This build can essentially be the same power no matter how many fights/day.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 08:55 AM
What is this build supposed to do? There's probably much easier ways to do it rather than making a Fighter/Monk work.

Eloel
2008-11-23, 08:57 AM
It's supposed to do as much damage as it can, as many times as it wants per day, and against as many enemies as possible (immunity-wise). With the improved speed, it is supposed to be the first one to attack in any fight.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 09:06 AM
Druid 20//Warblade 13/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 5. Stats are 18 Wis, 18 Con, 12 Int. Go Human for the feat. 6 skill points, d12 HD, full casting, Wildshape+, major ToB. Snag a Bead of Karma for a CL of 24(your buffs now last all day), spend 24/7 Wildshaped with major bonuses, and beat anything for major damage. Oh, and you get Wis to hit and AC, on top of it being pretty much your only important stat.

Eloel
2008-11-23, 09:15 AM
Can someone, PLEASE, suggest something about the character, that doesn't involve changing EVERYTHING?
Why has most people learned a SINGLE way to solve problems, and they're suggesting that at everything?
I think I've said I don't want magic, nor X/day abilities... Also, you're not suggesting anything, just putting a full built thing, and leaving...


PS: I'm sick of suggestions that change the flavor, don't take it personal if you're not trying to change the flavor.

RebelRogue
2008-11-23, 09:17 AM
Druid 20//Warblade 13/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 5. Stats are 18 Wis, 18 Con, 12 Int. Go Human for the feat. 6 skill points, d12 HD, full casting, Wildshape+, major ToB. Snag a Bead of Karma for a CL of 24(your buffs now last all day), spend 24/7 Wildshaped with major bonuses, and beat anything for major damage. Oh, and you get Wis to hit and AC, on top of it being pretty much your only important stat.
While that is no doubt a more powerful build, I fail to see the "easier" part!

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-23, 09:22 AM
Why has no one yet mentioned Shock Trooper? Thri-Kreen using two-handed-wielding with two greatswords would be amazing. Toss in some War Mind somehow for the whole "attack an extra person for free" ability would also help.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 09:30 AM
Can someone, PLEASE, suggest something about the character, that doesn't involve changing EVERYTHING?
Why has most people learned a SINGLE way to solve problems, and they're suggesting that at everything?
I think I've said I don't want magic, nor X/day abilities... Also, you're not suggesting anything, just putting a full built thing, and leaving...


PS: I'm sick of suggestions that change the flavor, don't take it personal if you're not trying to change the flavor.

You could see the gestalt fighter/monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97176) thread on the second page of the gaming forum.

But let's see.

Barbarian 1/Fighter 18/Warblade 1//Rogue 1/Monk 11/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3/Rogue 4.

With the following feats: TWF, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

With the following items: Speed Kama

Using Raging Mongoose: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5
---
Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) gets you pounce, which means full attack on a charge.
The warblade level at ECL 20 is to get Raging Mongoose (4 extra attacks at full AB).

If your DM won't let you split warblade between both sides of the progression then replace the one on the monk side with a level of Swordsage (which saves you 2 feats actually).

Bloodclaw Master negates the TWF penalty when using a Tiger Claw weapon. Which is why you are using a Kama (it's both a Tiger Claw and special Monk weapon). You don't want to use unarmed strike because you can't enchant it.

If you replace the monk side warblade level with Swordsage then you should prolly grab Shadow Blade as a feat (dex to damage when in a Shadow Hand stance). That should make up for the power attack penalty.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 09:37 AM
Scorpion Kamas, not regular. Sandstorm, deals your Unarmed Damage.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 09:41 AM
With the improved speed, it is supposed to be the first one to attack in any fight.

You might want to boost Dex then. A +7 to Init isn't that impressive.
Another suggestion: You seem to be only proficient with the Dwarven Waraxe. Why not take a feat that lets you flurry with it?

Eloel
2008-11-23, 09:48 AM
You might want to boost Dex then. A +7 to Init isn't that impressive.
Another suggestion: You seem to be only proficient with the Dwarven Waraxe. Why not take a feat that lets you flurry with it?

Is there a feat that does that?
Also, I was talking about 100 ft land-speed.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 09:55 AM
Scorpion Kamas, not regular. Sandstorm, deals your Unarmed Damage.

Hmm, didn't know about those.

Yeah, use them instead.


Is there a feat that does that?
Also, I was talking about 100 ft land-speed.

Improved Initiative is +4
Quick Reconnoiter is +2 (and has some other benefits)

And your land speed doesn't matter unless you get pounce. You can't flurry or TWF as a standard action (without Dual Strike which let's you TWF with some restrictions).

Demons_eye
2008-11-23, 10:00 AM
War chanter lets you get +2 to Init if you chant for 3 turn befor combat.

For the monk side for Damge output I would go some thing like this.
Monk 7/FoF3/X10
Get monks belt and monks tatoo uping monks level by 9, Then get SuS from tob thats 5 unarmed strike levels for monk. Thats 20 monk for unarmed strike before FoF. FoF prgreses it 3 times so 2d6, 3d6,4d6,6d6 then take improved natural attack for it to go up again. Grab a necklace of natrual attacks or that necklace in SS that lets you enchant natrual attacks like a weapon.

Eloel
2008-11-23, 10:04 AM
Looks good, where can I find FoF and SuS? (and what actually are they? :P)

Eldariel
2008-11-23, 10:06 AM
FoF = Fist of the Forests, PrC in Complete Champion (increases your unarmed die size and few other handy abilities, like Con to AC when not using armor)
SUS = Superior Unarmed Strike, feat in Tome of Battle (increases Monk-level by 4 for Unarmed Damage)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 10:07 AM
Looks good, where can I find FoF and SuS? (and what actually are they? :P)Fist of the Forest is a PrC, not sure where. SuS is Superior Unarmed Strike, ToB, adds 4 to your Monk level for unarmed damage. Toss in a Monks Belt, Imp. Nat. Attack, and a few other size mods, and you'll have halfway decent base damage.

Demons_eye
2008-11-23, 10:11 AM
If you can sneak it by and if your a good guy, get the saint template for +2 wis +2 con +4 cha fast healin half your HD and wisdom to your ac(insight bonus).