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Mephit
2008-11-23, 08:43 AM
So yeah, I've been thinking.
To me, a magic missile is a weak, but solid spell - especially at low levels. As long as your enemy doesn't have Shield or the like up, it's essentially an auto-hit. Useful for taking down those last HPs of a tough opponent, I guess.

But I've rarely seen it used, which is kind of sad, because if you if you found a way to up the damage on it, it's a solid damage output.

I've been looking for ways to raise your caster level for some boosts. There's a metamagic feat that removes the damage limits, so at level 19, you could be having 10d4+10 damage with only SR able to block it.
When you add Arcane thesis and Spell thematics (You get to pick 1 spell per spell level to cast at +1 CL, and turning all of your other spells into a magic missile thema is just icing on the cake), you get a +3 CL bonus, for 11d4+11.

What I'm asking advice for:
- Other ways to raise Caster Level?
- Prestige classes? I think there's a PrC that focuses on your choice for Arcane Thesis, and there's the Argent Savant. (Unfortunately, +1 damage for -1 CL isn't what I'm looking for, although I can negate that with Practiced Spellcaster). There's also a MM specialist in Dragon, but...that's Dragon. :smallconfused:
- A way around the Shield spell and everything else that blocks MM. I'd be pretty disappointed if there's not some item or PrC that bypasses that immunity.

Note: I was planning on putting this earlier in this post, but yes, I know this is a suboptimal choice. Battlefield control, buffing, etc.
It just seems like a fun concept.

Decoy69
2008-11-23, 08:54 AM
I remember a class called Magic Missile Mage from a Dragon mag. It was a 5 lvl class that focused entirley on MM. Does anyone else remember that?

:edit: After a quick googleisation... the class is called Force Missile Mage.
And using the magic of internets, here's a quick copy/paste from the crystalkeep forum.

Oh yeah, and the only reason I remembered this is because I think that the theme you're going for is very cool.

Force MIssle Mage
Requirements: Concentration 9 ranks, Spellcraft 9 ranks, Feat: combat casting, Ability to cast Magic Missle once per day

1st LVL: Base Attack +0, F+0/R+0/W+2, Bouse Missle, Still Missle, No extra spells per day
2nd LVL: Base Attack+1, F+0/R+0/W+3, Energy missle, Swift Shield, +1 lvl of existing spellcasting class
3rd LVL: Base Attack+1, F+1/R+1/W+3. Overpowering Missle, +1 lvl of existing spellcasting class
4th LVL: Base Attack+2, F+1/R+1/W+4, Reflective Shield, +1 lvl of existing spellcasting class
5th LVL: Bast Attack+2, F+!/R+!/W+4, Bonus Missle. +1 lvl of existing spellcasting class

Weapon and Marmor Proficiency: Force missle mage gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

Spells: a force missle mage continues training in magic as he gains levels. At each level after the 1sr, the force missle mage gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If the character has levels in more than one spellcasting class before becoming a force missle mage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of froce missle mage for the purposes of determining spells per day.

Bonus Missle: At 1st level, a force missle mage gains increased mastery over his spell of choice. Every time he casts magic missle he creates an additional missle, even if this extra missle exceeds the normal maximum of five missles that the spell normally allows. Thus a 1st-level force missle mage/6th-level wizard creates five migice missles, while a 1st-level force missle mage/8th-level wizard produces six missiles.
At 5th level, the force missle mage benefits from an additional bonus missile. This means that a high-level force missle mage can create up to seven missiles with a single casting of magic missile.

Still Missile (Ex): All of the force missile mage's magic missle spells lack a somatic component. He casts magic missile as if using the Still Spell feat but without an increase in spell level

Energy Missile (Ex): a force missile mage becomes intimately attuned to teh energies that compose the spell magic missle and may alter them significant ways. Starting at 2nd level, a fice missle mage may add either the acid, cold, electricity, or fire discriptor to any magic missle he casts

Swift Shield (Sp): A foce missile mage realizes the need to defend himself against the magic missiles of other spellcasters. A 2nd-level force missile mage can cast shield once per day as an immediate action. (an immediate action is like a free action, but only one can be made per round.) This spell is cast in addition to the force mage's usual number of spells per day and at the force missile mage's highest caster level.

Overpowering Missile: At 3rd level, the fprce missile mage's magic missle spells become especially potent, breaking through spell resistance with the spell magic missil. This benefit only applies to magic missile spells he casts.
In addition, a force missile mage's magic missiles might penetrate shiels spells and brooches of shielding. Against such protections, the force missile mage makes a caster level check with a DC equal to the caster level, int eh cast of shield, or DC 20, in the case of the brooch.

Reflective Shield (Sp): At 4th level, a force missile mage can reflect the spell magic missile. For the purposes of being affected by magic missile, a force missile mage is constantly treated as being under the effect of the spell spell turning, thus reflecting offensive magic missiles back at their caster. If the caster is protected by the shield spell or the Brooch of shielding, these reflected magic missiles are negated as normal. Missiles reflected back against a caster who also has spell turning in effect require the force missle mage to roll on teh spell turning mishap chart (PHB page 283)

Mephit
2008-11-23, 08:57 AM
I remember a class called Magic Missile Mage from a Dragon mag. It was a 5 lvl class that focused entirley on MM. Does anyone else remember that?

Ninja'd by the first post in the thread. Impressive. :smalltongue:

But me and Dragon have...Issues. (Namely that I think a lot of the things it spits out is bogus, which is why a lot of DMs don't allow it.)

jcsw
2008-11-23, 09:00 AM
Well, you already know about the force missile mage, but it bears mentioning twice. (You could probably convince your DM by telling him how suboptimal it is...)

Other than that: The main way to improve Magic Missiles is by using metamagic... Arcane Thesis is a no brainer... Incantatrix helps tons.
As for actual metamagic... Twin, Empower, Maximize and Repeat are all good.

Another way to increase damage is by using a different spell altogether.
Mordenkainen's Force Missiles (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020809a) are a good choice (It's also located in spell compendium, if you're worried about using WotC site stuff.) Spell Compendium also has Chain Missiles, which also work well.

EDIT: WOAH TRIPLE NINJA'D
Edit:
Me and Dragon have... Issues Bad pun alert.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-23, 09:08 AM
Have you considered Orb of Force? You need a way to scale the damage better just to make it decent. Keep in mind that this is the spell that deals 1d4+1 at a level where most Fighters deal 2d6+4.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 09:20 AM
The reason why I was specifically thinking of Magic missile is because of its good range, and the fact that it doesn't need an attack roll or allows a save. So I can understand why it deals less damage.

Metamagic is of course the way to go, thanks for reminding me of that. (I'm ashamed that in my search for ways to increase CL, I didn't even think of that :smalleek:)
Enhance spell is what I was looking for. 5 extra missiled on the damage cap.

Iku Rex
2008-11-23, 09:33 AM
There's a metamagic feat that removes the damage limits,Never heard of it. :smallconfused:

If you mean Enhance Spell, that's an Epic feat.

Anyway, some thoughts:

Feats and items:
Invisible Needle (CMag) or Blade of Force (CMag) gives you a +1 competence bonus on caster level.

Robe of Arcane Might (MIC, 21000) also provides a +1 competence bonus (and a +4 armor bonus).

Arcanist's Gloves (MIC, 500) provide a +2 unnamed bonus on caster level on a 1st level spell 2/day.

A Ring of Arcane Might (MIC, 20000) and the Orange Prism ioun stone both provide a +1 unnamed bonus to caster level.

A Third Eye - Penetrate (MIC, 8000) provides a +2 on checks to overcome spell resistance. With +4 from Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration and higher caster level in general you should be blasting through SR no problem.

Don't underestimate the argent savant - it's +1 per damage die, so it can add more than 1 damage, especially if the DM allows it to be empowered along with the regular damage.

Spells:

The Spell Matrix spells (lv5,7,9, SpC) let you fire off more MMs at high levels.

Arcane Spellsurge (lv7, DragMagic) allows a sorcerer to fire two spells per round without Quicken Spell.

Arcane Fusion (lv5 sorc, CMag) also lets you cast two spells as a standard action.

Use Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (lv6, SpC) to get even more missiles in the air at once.

Chain Missile (lv3, SpC) is Magic Missile's more powerful big brother. Higher damage cap, secondary targets. Still can't beat shield.


Once you start looking there are a lot of force spells out there. You can stick to a theme and still damage opponents immune to Magic Missile.

Bayar
2008-11-23, 10:01 AM
Fel drain metamagic feat. Give negative levels to people.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 10:07 AM
Wow, that helped a lot. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

And fell-drain is indeed something that I had in mind with this. Especially with the multiple targets. :smallamused:

jcsw
2008-11-23, 10:15 AM
Use Mordenkainen's Force Missiles cause it's funny and scales better.

(Flash Frost-Snowcasting Force Missiles... It may not be useful but it's cool.)

Mephit
2008-11-23, 11:19 AM
Let's see:

Miss Sile, Mage Guild 'Enforcer'

"Frank Delroi, I presume?" the frail woman asked.
- "Yup, that's me. What'll it be, dear?"
The middle-aged man who was sitting at the small table was about the size of an ox.
"You've owed the Guild money for quite some time. We rarely make much of an issue of these things, but it's been well over 5 years now. We'd like it back. Now."
- "Now listen here lady," the man said and stood up, towering over the woman, "you and your Guild mates..."
Frank had no idea what happened then, but the next moment, he was knocked into the wall, several bones broken, bits of him scorched, and others frozen.
"I wasn't asking."


Human Evoker6/Force Missile Mage5/Argent Savant1
Add AS (for flavor and the force theme) at subsequent levels.

At level 11:
BAB: +2 (Who needs BAB?)
HD: 11d4+Con
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +12

Skills: Maxed out Spellcraft, Concentration and Knowledge(Arcana).
Stats: Typical Wizard. High Int, then Dex and Con.
You won't be needing Ranged Attack rolls very often, AS2 offers a boost to Mage Armor and FMM2 lets you cast Shield 1/day as an Immeadiate action, so Miss Sile can afford to have a slightly lower Dex in low PB.

Feats:
1: Combat Casting (Prereq for FMM)
H: Spell Thematics: Force (Most notably pick Magic Missile and Chain Missile as thematic spells)
3: Practiced Spellcaster (Or any other metamagic feat, fell drain for instance)
6: Blade of Force
9: Arcane Thesis: Chain Missile
Continued: Take some good Metamagic feats.
If Flaws are allowed, Miss Sile should take Empower Spell feat.

Miss Sile dresses Fashionably in revealing clothing, as any female fantasy character shoul - regardless from the weather conditions.
She also posseses a Ring of Arcane Might aside from the typical Mage Guild gadgets. Lately, she's been saving up for a Robe of Arcane Might.

Her Magic Missile is fully maxed out at 7d4+14, and breaks through SR and with a successful CL check (1d20+16) also breaks through Shield.
Her Chain Missile deals 10d4+20 (ruling that the FMM features also affect this spell), with identical effects.
She can change the missiles' damage type to any element.

This isn't the highest damage output available, but it's quite solid, since the only thing that can stop it is a high-level caster's Shield.
Suboptimal: I guess.
Fun: Yup! ^^

Eclipse
2008-11-23, 11:31 AM
If Flaws are allowed, Miss Sile should take Heighten Spell so she can cast her Missiles at all spell levels! :smallbiggrin: (One trick pony, what do you mean?)


There's really no point to heighten spell if the focus is all on spells that don't allow saves. You can use any spell slot to cast a spell of that level or lower without heighten. Heighten just lets you boost the DC by using a higher level slot.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 11:36 AM
There's really no point to heighten spell if the focus is all on spells that don't allow saves. You can use any spell slot to cast a spell of that level or lower without heighten. Heighten just lets you boost the DC by using a higher level slot.

Well, I'm forced to agree with you after checking the rulebooks. I'll edit it out. First time I heard of that, though.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-23, 11:48 AM
I'd suggest adding Explosive Spell so that she could actually blast Frank back, but that'd give a Reflex save and thus negate the point of a no-save spell...

Mephit
2008-11-23, 11:53 AM
I'd suggest adding Explosive Spell so that she could actually blast Frank back, but that'd give a Reflex save and thus negate the point of a no-save spell...

Well, getting blast into a wall sounds a lot cooler than getting hit with 10 missiles and dropping to the floor. :smalltongue:

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-23, 01:50 PM
Unfortunately...


Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst). An explosive spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-23, 01:57 PM
Any force mage should have the Thunderlance spell from the spell compendium.

Fiery Diamond
2008-11-23, 02:05 PM
I am greatly amused by this thread. I shall have to have an NPC in my campaign do this.

SydneyLosstarot
2008-11-23, 02:14 PM
How about adding levels of Factotum for extra standart actions and Magic Missile SLA?
(not that you gain a lot of damage from higher CL, but you could be shooting a crapton of missiles per turn: roleplay it as if you're shooting them from both hands)

Mephit
2008-11-23, 02:20 PM
I'd add in all the spell suggestions along with Miss Sile's spellbook and her preferred spells, and maybe even her stats, but that's pretty time consuming.

At level 12, Empower Spell is a must.
15d4+30 as a 4th level spell (Chain missile+Empower+Arcane Thesis) is equal to a delayed blast fireball cast by a 20th level caster.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the much-appraised Factotum class.

Higher levels should focus on increasing the amount of castings, since in 4 levels, you'll have reached the maximum damage, which seriously decreases the usefulness of the build.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 02:24 PM
I'd add in all the spell suggestions along with Miss Sile's spellbook and her preferred spells, and maybe even her stats, but that's pretty time consuming.

At level 12, Empower Spell is a must.
15d4+30 as a 4th level spell (Chain missile+Empower+Arcane Thesis) is equal to a delayed blast fireball cast by a 20th level caster.

Roughly what, 70 damage?

I'm pretty sure lower level melee classes can do that.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 02:30 PM
Roughly what, 70 damage?

I'm pretty sure lower level melee classes can do that.

From Long Range, and no attack roll? :smallconfused:

Triaxx
2008-11-23, 02:30 PM
I had, but have now lost a home brew feat that allowed you to cast Magic Missile, and have them hang around ready to leap at opposing magic user's incase they attempted spells. Hooray for forcing Con checks. It did tend to be annoying, especially when the DM had his casters loaded for bear.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-23, 02:32 PM
From Long Range, and no attack roll? :smallconfused:

Raging barbarian mongoose leap attack?

Just saying that you should get the damage higher...

phoenixcire
2008-11-23, 02:36 PM
I could have sworn I've read somewhere an ability/feat or whatever that allows you to change the damage die of a spell. Am I remembering correctly? If I am that would be perfect for this.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 02:40 PM
Raging barbarian mongoose leap attack?

Just saying that you should get the damage higher...

From 840 ft. away? Yeah, no encounter will start that far away, just demonstrating that range might become an issue here. Not to mention that against anything out of melee reach, that build loses some of its effectiveness.

And as I said, this is in no way a build for the sake of optimizing.



(...Did I also mention Miss Sile is the Guild's sniper? She bought a spyglass!)

SydneyLosstarot
2008-11-23, 03:02 PM
Can you Sneak Attack with a magic missile?

because if you can, you could pick up a level of Rogue and Craven feat.
also, if Skirmish works with MM...

Mephit
2008-11-23, 03:09 PM
Can you Sneak Attack with a magic missile?

because if you can, you could pick up a level of Rogue and Craven feat.
also, if Skirmish works with MM...

With some DM fiat, maybe. But there's no attack roll involved in a MM, so I doubt it.

SydneyLosstarot
2008-11-23, 03:18 PM
aw, "specific parts of the target can't be singled out"

what a pity really

Aneantir
2008-11-23, 03:28 PM
Can you Sneak Attack with a magic missile?

because if you can, you could pick up a level of Rogue and Craven feat.
also, if Skirmish works with MM...

You can only sneak attack with spells that require you to make an attack roll.

Kris Strife
2008-11-23, 03:30 PM
Why not dip into Warmage for Warmage edge? add your Int bonus to damage on the first missile, a slighty better hit die, armored casting and nearly the same spell progression as Sorcerer. Sorcerer gets one extra ninth level spell at level 20.

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-23, 03:38 PM
There is a feat called Transcendent Spell that removes the caster level cap on the spell it is applied to. It is like +5 or +6, and I don't remember what book it is in. I think it is one of Monte Cook's sourcebooks.

Eclipse
2008-11-23, 04:01 PM
While I doubt this is exactly what you're looking for, it might be a nice addition for your build if you can acquire it.

That is the staff of wands. I have no idea what source book it's in or how much it costs, but it can hold up to four wands, and activating the staff activates all the wands at the same time.

Using four lvl. 9+ wands of magic missile, that's 20d4+20 damage, all in magic missiles.

Using force missiles from the spell compendium, the number of missiles never caps, but it only goes up every four levels. At level 12, you'd get 3 missiles of 2d6 each from each wand, for a total of 24d6 damage to a single target using four wands, as well as half of that damage to anyone adjacent to the target. Or you can spread the missiles around like with a magic missile. This option is quite a bit pricier though.

No save or attack roll either way.

Deth Muncher
2008-11-23, 04:05 PM
While I doubt this is exactly what you're looking for, it might be a nice addition for your build if you can acquire it.

That is the staff of wands. I have no idea what source book it's in or how much it costs, but it can hold up to four wands, and activating the staff activates all the wands at the same time.

Using four lvl. 9+ wands of magic missile, that's 20d4+20 damage, all in magic missiles.

Using force missiles from the spell compendium, the number of missiles never caps, but it only goes up every four levels. At level 12, you'd get 3 missiles of 2d6 each from each wand, for a total of 24d6 damage to a single target using four wands, as well as half of that damage to anyone adjacent to the target. Or you can spread the missiles around like with a magic missile. This option is quite a bit pricier though.

No save or attack roll either way.

You're thinking of the Rod of Many Wands in CArc, which can hold three wands. It should also be noted that this item drains as many charges from all the wands inside as there are: that is to say, with three wands inside of it, they all get drained three charges, thus draining 9 charges from the total 150 charges (that it, unless you're a UMD monk who bought these wands partially-charged...).

EDIT: It's in CMage, sorry.

Mephit
2008-11-23, 04:14 PM
force missiles

Yes, the spell is definitely on Miss Sile's spell list (although a proud guild member as she is, she doesn't work with wands) But an empowered Chained Missile deals more damage than that, so it will only be used in tactical situations, where the damage to adjacents is effective enough.

As for the staff: It's a good idea, but as you said, very expensive. :smalleek:

Rei_Jin
2008-11-23, 04:53 PM
I did a build based on this once.

Sorceror6/Force Missile Mage5/Argent Savant5/Archmage5 (Yes, we went to level 21)

Everything he cast was Force based (for damage purposes, anyway).

I was putting out around 180 damage per round, reliably.

Definitely not an optimal use of a spellcaster, but fun as all hell.

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 04:56 PM
Quick skim hasn't shown anything, so I'll mention it:

Go Sorcerer, more spells per day, and:

Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion

Arcane Fusion, cast a Force missile and a Magi Missile, Greater Arcane Fusion, Cast a [high level missile spell] and Arcane Fusion for the above.

Build is: Sorcerer 6/Force Missile Mage 5/Ardent whatever.

Get metas to apply to it, Arcane Thesis of course, and Blade of Force and Invisible Needle.

Go to town.

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-23, 05:49 PM
That magic missile PrC is pretty much a necessity though. IIRC, it eventually lets you ignore shield with your magic missiles.

Flickerdart
2008-11-23, 06:14 PM
Miss Sile needs no spellbook. Miss Sile only has a scrap of paper with the words Magic Missile written on it.

Sorcerer is a sub-optimal choice because they can't apply Metamagic without casting full-round. An Evoker Wizard is the better option (I can't believe I just said that).

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 06:22 PM
Sorcerer is a sub-optimal choice because they can't apply Metamagic without casting full-round. An Evoker Wizard is the better option (I can't believe I just said that).

1) Rapid Metamagic Feat.

2) Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-23, 06:24 PM
1) Rapid Metamagic Feat. PHBII substitution to exchange your familiar, then Obtain Familiar feat at 6th level.

2) Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion.


Fixed for you.:smallbiggrin:

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-23, 06:44 PM
Why not dip into Warmage for Warmage edge? add your Int bonus to damage on the first missile, a slighty better hit die, armored casting and nearly the same spell progression as Sorcerer. Sorcerer gets one extra ninth level spell at level 20.

"Dipping" into a spellcasting class is usually a bad idea. Also, the Warmage Edge only applies to spells cast as a Warmage.

Kris Strife
2008-11-23, 06:50 PM
"Dipping" into a spellcasting class is usually a bad idea. Also, the Warmage Edge only applies to spells cast as a Warmage.

Use warmage instead of sorcerer then. you get free sudden metamagic feats that way too.

only1doug
2008-11-23, 06:58 PM
<snip>
3: Practiced Spellcaster
<snip>
CL check (1d20+16)
<snip>



I'm surprised no one else mentioned this but Practiced spellcaster doesn't work in that fashion.

Practiced spellcaster can only increase your caster level upto a maximum of your total character level. (basically allows you to buy off some of the penalties of multiclassing outside of pure caster levels).

Keld Denar
2008-11-23, 07:09 PM
Human Evoker5/Incantrix10/FMM5
Iron Will from Otyuthe Hole
1 Empower Spell
1 Fell Draining
3 Fell Weakening
6 Fell Sickening
8? Arcane Thesis:MM
9 Maximize Spell
12 Quicken Spell
13? Twin Spell
15 Repeat Spell
18 Sanctum Spell

So, now you cast a Magic Missile with:
Empower +0
Fell Draining +0
Fell Weakening -1
Fell Sickening -1
Maximize +1
Quicken +2
Twin +2
Repeat +2
Sanctum Spell -2

Therefore, your MM is a 4th level spell, followed by a non-quickened 2nd level spell. Each missile hits for 10 + 1d4 points and gives 2 negative levels, a -4 str, the sickened condition. Thats about 37 damage (10 from 2 neg levels) and the penalties against what, 7 different targets? The next round, you fire it all off again, plus your repeats trigger for 74 damage which includes 2 more negative levels. Continue until you run out of 2nd+ level spells or bad guys.

Also note, this is an awesome way to raise an army of Wights, since Wights naturally raise from targets killed by negative levels. Thus, you could create aproximately 14 Wights per round if you started casting from a crowded city square on a bunch of commoner 1s and 2s. Swap out Sanctum Spell for Invisible Spell from Cityscape and you could do this all day from a rooftop with over a dozen people dropping a round that seem to shrivel up and die for no reason. Just blast anyone you see, anyone who shows up to stop you, and wait until nightfall for your undead legion to rise up. Well, technically not YOUR undead legion, since they won't be under your control, but thats such a minor detail :smallyuk:

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-23, 07:20 PM
Also note, this is an awesome way to raise an army of Wights, since Wights naturally raise from targets killed by negative levels. Thus, you could create aproximately 14 Wights per round if you started casting from a crowded city square on a bunch of commoner 1s and 2s. Swap out Sanctum Spell for Invisible Spell from Cityscape and you could do this all day from a rooftop with over a dozen people dropping a round that seem to shrivel up and die for no reason. Just blast anyone you see, anyone who shows up to stop you, and wait until nightfall for your undead legion to rise up. Well, technically not YOUR undead legion, since they won't be under your control, but thats such a minor detail :smallyuk:

Should be noted that not ALL level drained corpses will rise as wights though. :smallwink: Even if you figure a...25% wight rate for level drained corpses though that's still a good chance...especially considering each wight can start a 'wightpoclapse' all on it's on in a busy city.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 07:27 PM
Off Topic:

Is it wrong that when I saw the title I thought that this thread was going to be about how to make a magical missile and that I started coming up with ways to create said missile and make it even better?

I even came up with a bunker buster. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2008-11-23, 07:31 PM
My Arcane Sniper PrC may be worthwhile for you.

Collin152
2008-11-23, 07:35 PM
Off Topic:

Is it wrong that when I saw the title I thought that this thread was going to be about how to make a magical missile and that I started coming up with ways to create said missile and make it even better?

I even came up with a bunker buster. :smalltongue:

You should make that thread.

Arakune
2008-11-23, 07:35 PM
Off Topic:

Is it wrong that when I saw the title I thought that this thread was going to be about how to make a magical missile and that I started coming up with ways to create said missile and make it even better?

I even came up with a bunker buster. :smalltongue:

Please, tell us :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2008-11-23, 07:39 PM
Off Topic:

Is it wrong that when I saw the title I thought that this thread was going to be about how to make a magical missile and that I started coming up with ways to create said missile and make it even better?

I even came up with a bunker buster. :smalltongue:

This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

And I second this getting its own thread. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 07:49 PM
Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97476) made.

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-23, 08:02 PM
Wait, what about having an artificer with a belt of battle using his class feature to metamagic the bajeebus out of a wand of magic missile?

That is, surely he can fire a twin chain repeating maximized empowered quickened....

And blow every charge in his wand in one round in return for obscene damage?

Deth Muncher
2008-11-23, 08:17 PM
And blow every charge in his wand in one round in return for obscene damage?

That's the best kind of damage!

Vinotaur
2008-11-23, 08:53 PM
First: Also, I found a meta feat worth taking, not mentioned. If you intend to be using high level slots for this sort of thing, you should take Fortify Spell, It's like Heighten, but instead you get a +2 to penetrate SR per spell level heightened. You could even get through high SR with that.

Or you could just Earth Spell it, but that's just cruel.


Fixed for you.

No thank you, I'd rather have the ability infinite times per day instead of 5 times a day. Especially if I intend to use it on nearly every combat spell cast.


Human Evoker5/Incantrix10/FMM5
Iron Will from Otyuthe Hole
1 Empower Spell
1 Fell Draining
3 Fell Weakening
6 Fell Sickening
8? Arcane Thesis:MM
9 Maximize Spell
12 Quicken Spell
13? Twin Spell
15 Repeat Spell
18 Sanctum Spell

So, now you cast a Magic Missile with:
Empower +0
Fell Draining +0
Fell Weakening -1
Fell Sickening -1
Maximize +1
Quicken +2
Twin +2
Repeat +2
Sanctum Spell -2

The Incatatrix ability has a Minimum 1, so you can't actually do that, you'd have a 6th level spell, and 4th unquickened. You also added Repeat wrong, it would only be plus one.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 08:56 PM
The Incatatrix ability has a Minimum 1, so you can't actually do that, you'd have a 6th level spell, and 4th unquickened. You also added Repeat wrong, it would only be plus one.

You can Instant Meta + Arcane Thesis for +0. And throw in a ton of +0 meta to build up credit to pay for the more expensive ones.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-23, 10:02 PM
Twin spell works only with rays, so it's out.
The feat that removes spell caps is an epic feat, I believe.

@SydneyLosstarot: Funny enough, the elf and the magic-user did that in their magic missile animation in that old Dungeons & Dragons arcade games by Capcom.

Keld Denar
2008-11-23, 10:48 PM
Twin spell works only with rays, so it's out.


Split Ray only works on rays, Twin Spell works on all spells.

Collin152
2008-11-23, 10:51 PM
Split Ray only works on rays, Twin Spell works on all spells.

But could you apply Split Ray to Polymorph when using it to turn someone into a Manta Ray?
You could get a copy of someone in Manta form!
Or bisect them, I guess.

Paul H
2008-11-24, 02:30 PM
Hi

Seen a lot of complicated suggestions here, but I think the simplest was the Warmage.

Shield will always overcome MM, even with the extra Edge/Extra Edge ablities, so it's always good to have other options. Warmage does this. Also, 'flavour' your character with the 'Advanced Learning', you can go Argent Savant for even more damage. You're also better armoured, better armed and a Spontaneous Caster to boot...

My suggestion:
3) Tenser's Floating Disk
6) Leomund's Tiny Hut
11) Wall of Force

You now qualify for Arg. Sav. You do lose 1 CL, but each MM does extra point of damage, and you get +2 to hit with all your Force attacks. (Orb of Force, etc). Dont forget that attacking from within a Leomund's Hut you count as an Invisible Attacker. (Unless target is in there with you). Of course, the globe is a Fireball magnet....:smallwink:

Eg, Int 20 Warmage/AS with Extra Edge does 5D4+19 damage (Total between 5 missiles).

Cheers
Paul H
Edit:
PS There's a set of gloves in the MIC (Gaunlets of Starry Sky, Pg204) that allow you to spont any spell to a MM. Sounds stupid, until you remember that Blades of Fire is a 2nd Lvl Swift spell, so you can get of two sets of missiles a round. (Gloves work 3/day, plus emit Light spell at will. Cost 1100gp)

only1doug
2008-11-24, 03:14 PM
Edit:
PS There's a set of gloves in the MIC (Gaunlets of Starry Sky, Pg204) that allow you to spont any spell to a MM. Sounds stupid, until you remember that Blades of Fire is a 2nd Lvl Swift spell, so you can get of two sets of missiles a round. (Gloves work 3/day, plus emit Light spell at will. Cost 1100gp)

sorry paul, sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot to cast magic missile won't give you the cast time of the sacrificed spell, it would still be a standard casting of magic missile.

the gloves are still nice for a magic missile focused caster, he could prepare more utility spells and spontaneously convert them to magic missiles as needed.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 04:19 PM
Hi

Seen a lot of complicated suggestions here, but I think the simplest was the Warmage.

Shield will always overcome MM, even with the extra Edge/Extra Edge ablities, so it's always good to have other options. Warmage does this. Also, 'flavour' your character with the 'Advanced Learning', you can go Argent Savant for even more damage. You're also better armoured, better armed and a Spontaneous Caster to boot...

My suggestion:
3) Tenser's Floating Disk
6) Leomund's Tiny Hut
11) Wall of Force

You now qualify for Arg. Sav. You do lose 1 CL, but each MM does extra point of damage, and you get +2 to hit with all your Force attacks. (Orb of Force, etc). Dont forget that attacking from within a Leomund's Hut you count as an Invisible Attacker. (Unless target is in there with you). Of course, the globe is a Fireball magnet....:smallwink:

Eg, Int 20 Warmage/AS with Extra Edge does 5D4+19 damage (Total between 5 missiles).

Cheers
Paul H
Edit:
PS There's a set of gloves in the MIC (Gaunlets of Starry Sky, Pg204) that allow you to spont any spell to a MM. Sounds stupid, until you remember that Blades of Fire is a 2nd Lvl Swift spell, so you can get of two sets of missiles a round. (Gloves work 3/day, plus emit Light spell at will. Cost 1100gp)

Except 1) We already established that Force Missile Mage Pierces Shield.

2) A Sorcerer can take Wings of Flurry, with the set ups here, and still be better off then any Warmage ever.

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 04:19 PM
Wait, what about having an artificer with a belt of battle using his class feature to metamagic the bajeebus out of a wand of magic missile?

That is, surely he can fire a twin chain repeating maximized empowered quickened....

And blow every charge in his wand in one round in return for obscene damage?

Currently playing in a modern-day D&D game.

DM has ruled that all wands and staffs can do Retributive Strike.

We have a wand of Magic Missile taped to a grenade.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-24, 05:41 PM
heres a build i did while bored for this

Level | class | feat
1. Warmage 1 | Combat casting & Iron will
2. Warmage 2
3. Warmage 3 | Quicken spell
4. Warmage 4
5. Warmage 5
6. Warmage 5/FFM 1 | Force needle
7. Warmage 5/FFM 2
8. Warmage 5/FFM 3
9. Warmage 5/FFM 4 | Blade of force
10. Warmage 5/FFM 5
11. Warmage 6/FFm 5
12. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 1 | Arcane thesis(MM)
13. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 1 | Twin spell
14. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 2
15. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2 / Incantrix 3| resedual Magic
16. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 4| Maximise spell
17. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 5
18. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 6|
19. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 7| Empower Spell
20. Warmage 6/FFm 5/ Argent Sevant 2/ Incantrix 8

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-24, 06:04 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Warmage suffer from the same Casting-Time increases as Sorcerors when applying metamagic feats? If so, doesn't that make Quicken Spell redundant?

This is why people prefer sorceror: the alternate feature in PHBII that allows you to give up your familiar to let you cast Meta spells like a Wizard.

hotel_papa
2008-11-24, 06:19 PM
All spontaneous casters suffer from Quicken Spell redundancy, unless they mitigate it somehow. Like, by not playing a spontaneous caster.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-24, 06:22 PM
All spontaneous casters suffer from Quicken Spell redundancy, unless they mitigate it somehow. Like, by not playing a spontaneous caster.

Ack forgot about that so switch it out for another meta magic

konfeta
2008-11-24, 11:04 PM
There has to be a way to sneak in IGMS from the Neverwinter Nights game into pnp and convince your DM to let all of this work on that spell.

For reference:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_greater_missile_storm

Douglas
2008-11-24, 11:13 PM
Let's see, take Disintegrate and remove both the attack roll and the save... Yeah, that's balanced.:smallconfused:

There's a reason I like to call that spell Isaac's Greater Munchkin Swarm.

OzymandiasVolt
2008-11-24, 11:59 PM
Rod of Many Wands: Wand of Greater Arcane Fusion x3. (Full round action)
Each Greater Arcane Fusion is used to cast Arcane Fusion and Force Missile.
Each Arcane Fusion is used to cast Force Missile and Magic Missile.
So that's 6 x Force Missile and 3 x Magic Missile.

Then you cast Greater Celerity and do it again.
Total: 12 x Force Missile, 6 x Magic Missile.

Terribly inefficient, but come on, Magic Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre).

konfeta
2008-11-25, 12:07 AM
Let's see, take Disintegrate and remove both the attack roll and the save... Yeah, that's balanced.

Common, I think tippy or some other unholy optimizer looked at that spell and said "Pfft. Weak."

Sure it's on the imba side of the NWN spectrum but it doesn't really compare to some of the stuff real melee builds did there.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 01:21 AM
Let's see, take Disintegrate and remove both the attack roll and the save... Yeah, that's balanced.:smallconfused:

There's a reason I like to call that spell Isaac's Greater Munchkin Swarm.

Pfft, it does damage

mabriss lethe
2008-11-25, 02:13 AM
Rod of Many Wands: Wand of Greater Arcane Fusion x3. (Full round action)
Each Greater Arcane Fusion is used to cast Arcane Fusion and Force Missile.
Each Arcane Fusion is used to cast Force Missile and Magic Missile.
So that's 6 x Force Missile and 3 x Magic Missile.

Then you cast Greater Celerity and do it again.
Total: 12 x Force Missile, 6 x Magic Missile.

Terribly inefficient, but come on, Magic Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre).

One problem I can see with this little trick... Wands only carry up to a 4th level spell. GAF is considerably higher level. (W/ regular Arcane fusion being out of bounds as well, since it's a 5th level spell IIRC)

OzymandiasVolt
2008-11-25, 02:41 AM
Curses, foiled again. Been so long since I've used a Wand with a character that I forgot about the spell level cap.

I apologize for not catching that myself. I must've been blinded by the awesome.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-25, 05:29 AM
So this thread has piqued my interest, so I'm gonna try making a version for a level 15 campaign of my brothers. I'm thinking of Sorceror 6 (Metamagic Variant)/FMM 5/Argent Savant 4

Feats
1 Combat Casting, H Empower
3 Maximize
6 Twin
9 Arcane Thesis (MM)
12 Quicken
15 ???

I'm not sure what to take for level 15, or what feats to take if flaws are allowed (need to clarify).

Spells I intend to take.
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Greater Mage Armor
Shield
Those other missile spells
Arcane Fusion (Won't have access to greater yet)

Any other spells I should take? And what magic items should I get, besides the Cloak of Charisma +6?

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 08:44 AM
So this thread has piqued my interest, so I'm gonna try making a version for a level 15 campaign of my brothers. I'm thinking of Sorceror 6 (Metamagic Variant)/FMM 5/Argent Savant 4

Feats
1 Combat Casting, H Empower
3 Maximize
6 Twin
9 Arcane Thesis (MM)
12 Quicken
15 ???

I'm not sure what to take for level 15, or what feats to take if flaws are allowed (need to clarify).

Spells I intend to take.
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Greater Mage Armor
Shield
Those other missile spells
Arcane Fusion (Won't have access to greater yet)

Any other spells I should take? And what magic items should I get, besides the Cloak of Charisma +6?

Well first of all, don't take Combat Reflexes unless it's a pre-req, because it sucks. Not sure if it is, Secondly, you don't need Mage Armor and Greater.

Other feats could be Empower, Fell Draining, Easy Meta Twin or Quicken.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-25, 09:37 AM
I believe you mean Combat Casting, and yes, it's a pre-req for the FMM Prestige Class. I've already got Empower as a Human Bonus feat, as for the (Greater) Mage Armor thing, having five force spells is a prereq for the Argent class, but I see your point.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-25, 10:56 AM
Curses, foiled again. Been so long since I've used a Wand with a character that I forgot about the spell level cap.

I apologize for not catching that myself. I must've been blinded by the awesome.

Try making a one-spell stave or a scepter. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craft_Scepter,all)

Mephit
2008-11-25, 12:36 PM
Well first of all, don't take Combat Reflexes unless it's a pre-req, because it sucks. Not sure if it is, Secondly, you don't need Mage Armor and Greater.

Aside from the spell's obvious flavorfulness, the Argent Savant does give you a +2 bonus on armor and shield bonuses, which is good for a +8 bonus with Greater Mage Armor. I'd say that's worth a 3rd level spell slot per day.
Not to mention the free shield spell as an immeadiate action, good for another +6Combine that with some deflection bonuses and still a maximum Dex bonus, and you're going to be pretty hard to hit.

Be sure to take Explosive Runes. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and you might want to consider taking the Chain Missile spell (Sp Comp) instead of the MM for high levels. Someone suggested it for my build, and I have to say it's a good spell.
It's identical to MM, except:
- Your missiles hit one target initially, then spring to another target, dealing the same damage.
- It's damage cap is at 10 missiles. (1 per 2CL)
- It's 3rd level.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-25, 01:14 PM
Oh, and you might want to consider taking the Chain Missile spell (Sp Comp) instead of the MM for high levels. Someone suggested it for my build, and I have to say it's a good spell.
It's identical to MM, except:
- Your missiles hit one target initially, then spring to another target, dealing the same damage.
- It's damage cap is at 10 missiles. (1 per 2CL)
- It's 3rd level.

Now consider what happens when you apply Chain Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell,all) to chain missile.

Paul H
2008-11-25, 01:20 PM
Hi

The Chain Missile (SpC) is a good spell. It's also a good reason for Warmage, since all the secondary targets also get Edge/Extra Edge damage added. Just take it as Advanced Learning at 6th lvl.

Don't forget that the 'Sudden' series of metamagic feats (Sudden Empower - Warmage 7th), do not increase casting time for spont casters. So a Rod of Sudden Quicken can be used by Warmages.

Still yet to be convinced that Warmage isn't the answer. Plenty of feats like the Fey Heritage series, Arcane Disciple, etc that allow you to add utility spells to those known. High level campaigns just play Warmage/Rainbow Servant for full Cleric list, but that's off topic.....

Cheers
Paul H

Mephit
2008-11-25, 01:40 PM
Now consider what happens when you apply Chain Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell,all) to chain missile.

Hmmm...Quadruple hit. (No save, no SR, no attack roll...)
Boom!
Yummy.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-25, 02:19 PM
Hmmm...Quadruple hit. (No save, no SR, no attack roll...)
Boom!
Yummy.

It's worse than that.

Targets A, B, C, D, and E are all within range.

Tim the Enchanter casts chained chain missile on Target A. Target A is affected by primary effect, secondary effect chains to Targets B, C, D, and E.

Then, the chained primary effect chains to B, C, D, and E. Each one has their secondary effect chain to the other targets: B chains secondary effects to A, C, D, and E; C chains secondary effects to A, B, D, and E; D chains secondary effects to A, B, C, and E; E chains secondary effects to A, B, C, and D.

In short, it's exponential: the more targets, the more hits.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 04:40 PM
Aside from the spell's obvious flavorfulness, the Argent Savant does give you a +2 bonus on armor and shield bonuses, which is good for a +8 bonus with Greater Mage Armor. I'd say that's worth a 3rd level spell slot per day.
Not to mention the free shield spell as an immeadiate action, good for another +6Combine that with some deflection bonuses and still a maximum Dex bonus, and you're going to be pretty hard to hit.

Um, the point was pretty clearly that having both Mage Armor and Greater Mage armor is redundant. Make your arguments for either one, but there is no reason to have both.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-25, 07:19 PM
So my spell list so far:

9/5/5/4/4/3/2
0th
Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Read Magic, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???

1st
Magic Missile, Shield, ???, ???, ???

2nd
Scorching Ray, ???, ???, ???, ???

3rd
Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Chain Missile, Explosive Runes

4th
Force Missile, ???, ???, ???

5th
Overland Flight, Arcane Fusion, ???

6th
???, ???

What other spells would I pick in order to also contribute as a team player?

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 08:42 AM
What other spells would I pick in order to also contribute as a team player?My list for Sorc 13 casting.
Theme: Descendant of a force dragon (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicNonAbominations.html#force-dragon), master of invisible force fields.

1 (5): Shield, Magic Missile, Wings of Swift Flying (RacDrag), Greater Mage Hand (SpC) [invisible force lifts object], Persistent Blade (SpC)
2 (5): Wings of Cover (RacDrag) (!), See Invisible [see invisible force], Battering Ram (SpC), Gust of Wind [invisible force makes the air move], Greater Slide (SpC) [invisible force moves creature]
3 (4): Greater Mage Armor, Chain Missile (SpC), Laeral's Silver Lance (Waterdeep), Dragonskin (SpC) [ask for "force resistance" instead of energy resistance]
4 (4): Orb of Force (SpC), Wings of Flurry (RacDrag), Resilient Sphere, Forcewave (SpC)
5 (3): Wall of Force, Arcane Fusion (CMag), Overland Flight [you are carried aloft by invisible force]
6 (2): Crushing Sphere (LEoF), Disintegrate [dismantle the invisible force that holds matter together]

It should provide a good combination of offense, defense, battlefield control and utility. Ask if you're wondering why a spell is on the list. (Though a few are mostly fillers, since it was hard to find good force/"forcy" spells for low levels.


Feat suggestions (based on your list):

1 Combat Casting, H Draconic Heritage (RacDrag)
3 Empower Spell
6 Practiced Spellcaster (CArc)
9 Arcane Thesis (MM) (PHBII)
12 Quicken Spell
15 Twin Spell (CArc)

Draconic Heritage makes you dragonblooded, which helps with certain spells. Practiced Spellcaster makes up for the lost caster levels. I'd probably also drop Quicken. One more level and you can get the Arcane Spellsurge spell from Dragon Magic, and cast two spells (3 with Arcane Fusion) per round without a level increase. Spell Penetration, Force Needle (CMag) or Martial Weapon Proficiency (for Abjurant Champion PrC) are good replacements, as is another metamagic feat of some sort (Chain?).

Mephit
2008-11-26, 08:49 AM
Comment:


9 Arcane Thesis (MM)

I still think getting an Arcane Thesis on your Chain Missile is better, especially if you're mid-high level. (Which you have to be to take AT, so generalise that)

I do like the concept of a dragon descendant, though.

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 08:59 AM
I still think getting an Arcane Thesis on your Chain Missile is better, especially if you're mid-high level. (Which you have to be to take AT, so generalise that) Force Missile Mage doesn't technically work with Chain Missile. As long as he's investing in that class he should focus on Magic Missile. Other than that, I agree.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-26, 05:02 PM
I like the Forcemage theme, but I dunno about the Draconic Heritage. And Arcane Spellsurge still only lets you cast one spell with a normal casting time of swift in a round, and I don't have many spells that are different from a standard action.

What about (non-Charisma-boosting) magic items? I was thinking about Ring of Wizardry III and/or IV, as my metamagic'd Magic Missiles will usually end up at these levels.

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 06:12 PM
I like the Forcemage theme, but I dunno about the Draconic Heritage. And Arcane Spellsurge still only lets you cast one spell with a normal casting time of swift in a round, and I don't have many spells that are different from a standard action.Draconic Heritage/dragonblood is mostly useful for Wings of Cover (protect allies) and Arcane Spellsurge (cast as swift action). Without those spells it's not worth it.

The big deal with Arcane Spellsurge is that "a sorcerer or other spontaneous arcane caster could cast a metamagic spell (as a standard action) and a normal spell (as a swift action) in the same round".

So instead of (for example) a level 4 Quickened MM (swift) and a regular MM (standard) you can cast a level 4 Twinned MM (standard) and a regular MM (swift). Or Arcane Fusion and a metamagiced MM. And you can use it on more than 3+Int mod spells per day.

As for items, rings of wizardry are very expensive. I wouldn't bother. (I may post some suggestions later if I have time.)

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-26, 06:32 PM
And you can use it on more than 3+Int mod spells per day.

Just double-checked my PHBII. Dangit! Why'd they put that blurb at the top of the next column? :smallfrown:

Paul H
2008-12-01, 06:02 PM
Hi

Don't forget that Warmage gets some free metamagic feats, like Sudden Empower, Suden Maximise etc.

It also has the greatest range of damage spells. (Wizards still have to learn theirs). High Int even increases damage.

Vs Drow - lssr Orbs, Orbs, Evard's Tentacles. All have no Save/SR.

Fighter grants extra weapons for Whirling Blade spell. Flaming Greatsword attacking 60' line anyone? Don't forget you use Cha instad of Str for attack/damage bonuses. Even add your Int mod to damage! If you aren't highlighted by light source, your Ring Darkvision stops Drow seeing you. Attack as Invis.

Cheers
Paul H

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-02, 06:09 AM
I've just discovered the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage, which eliminates the spontaneous metamagic lag for good.

True, the Warmage has all that stuff, but then we're kinda losing sight of what this idea is about: 7d4+7 damage of any non-sonic elemental type that never misses, which can be improved to 3d4+40 as a swift action if you want.