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Doom Cellist
2008-11-23, 02:36 PM
I was wondering which Cthulhu system is better the D20 of sixth editon could you guys help me out thanks

Starsinger
2008-11-23, 02:40 PM
While having basically no knowledge of the other, I'm going to recommend against the d20 version. D20 doesn't do a lot of things well and I can't imagine CoC is going to be an exception.

hamishspence
2008-11-23, 02:43 PM
well, I liked the D20 CoC book. Though for D&D it would need to be updated from 3.0 to 3.5- adjust skills and DR.

Brauron
2008-11-23, 02:43 PM
I'm going to vote for BRP 6th edition. While d20 CofC is acceptable, I feel that even with its version of the Massive Damage rule (if the PC takes 10 points of damage or more from a single attack, they have to make a fortitude save versus death) it loses the sense of vulnerability that BRP has and which I feel is appropriate for the setting.

ken-do-nim
2008-11-23, 02:47 PM
My understanding is that d20 CoC plays more like the Evil Dead movies, which is fun but different.

rayne_dragon
2008-11-23, 03:22 PM
I think it's easier to pick up 6th edition CoC, than the d20 version. I also find that you loose a bit of the mythos feel with d20. Of course, in the end it won't matter much, players are doomed either way. :smallbiggrin:

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 03:31 PM
For your own sanity, I'd suggest heavily for 6th edition. Its hard to explain, but between D20 systems and D100 systems, D100 systems are just... better. So please, get the D100 6th Edition of CoC. You'll be glad you did.

Waspinator
2008-11-23, 04:14 PM
Pokethulhu! Cute and cuddly dark gods from beyond space and time!

allonym
2008-11-23, 04:36 PM
There really is no contest. BRP CoC 6th ed.

And even if there was a contest, all the best materials for the game are pretty much BRP-only. The only exceptions being the d20 Cthulhu massive modern campaign Nocturnum, which still seemed disjointed and self-indulgent, and a few of the Lovecraft County books, which went dual-system. (Arkham, Dunwich and Kingsport are dual system, Innsmouth (which is out of print anyway), Miskatonic and I think the Miskatonic Valley Tales aren't.)

I quite like d20, I play D&D 4th and 3.5, but for Cthulhu, it's all wrong, it feels wrong, it looks wrong, and it plays wrong. The only advantages it has are opposed skill tests being easier (marginally), and being able to use the stats for Lovecraftian monsters in normal D&D. If you'd ever want to.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-23, 04:39 PM
There really is no contest. BRP CoC 6th ed.

I completely agree. The d20 variant focuses too much on leveling up your character and actually defeating the monsters, which as any Lovecraft-fan will tell you is missing the point.

Moose Fisher
2008-11-23, 04:45 PM
Having the 6th edition book myself, I recommend you use it.

Players die or will go insane easily, but that's the point. Many creatures deal ridiculous amounts of damage or resist most of what the players may throw at them, which means the best way to defeat mythos entities is through research and using your head. They have stats for the elder gods, but that's just to see how much they damage the countryside.

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 04:53 PM
I love the skills system for BRP, too. It just seems more realistic. You slowly get better over time, but only if you actually use that skill. I love it! :smallbiggrin:


Take it from me, get 6th edition. :smallamused:

Starshade
2008-11-23, 04:57 PM
For some reason, i got both versions, and, never gotten around to try them out. But i think the disadvantage of D20 is few products who support it. And, its obvious, the players could become D&D ish powerfull, with some creativity im not shure if the mythos creatures would become so scary looking! :smallamused:

An better idea, would perhaps to use it in a homebrew D&D world perhaps? with Mythos gods as sole gods, darkness, read mythos, Conan stories, all sort of dark fantasy and good old Swords & Sorcery and make a dark D&D experience with the CoC insanity rules for summoned creatures? :smallsmile:

For CoC? Um, D20 is not currently supported, planned supported more ever, so, is there a competition? its only 2-3 small adventures who's statted for d20 if i remember?

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-23, 05:42 PM
I recommend 6th ed BRP also.

I would add that the d20 CoC rulebook is supposed to be far superior in presentation and fluff, and is said to be a useful brp resource. However good luck finding a copy.

bosssmiley
2008-11-23, 06:39 PM
Pokethulhu! Cute and cuddly dark gods from beyond space and time!

:smallbiggrin:

If you can't find "Pokethulhu" (which is what Lovecraft meant all along :smallwink: ) then go for 6th Ed BRP CoC.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-23, 10:54 PM
While having basically no knowledge of the other, I'm going to recommend against the d20 version. D20 doesn't do a lot of things well and I can't imagine CoC is going to be an exception.

It is, actually.

I'd go with Trail of Chulhu over everything, and d20 Call of Cthulhu over BRP Call of Cthulhu. "Roll over target number" beats "roll under skill" (unless you're using 3d6 to roll under skill).


I completely agree. The d20 variant focuses too much on leveling up your character and actually defeating the monsters, which as any Lovecraft-fan will tell you is missing the point.

This just isn't accurate. There are no strict guidelines for leveling (just like in almost all d20 games other than D&D; it's just "GM gives out XP at will"), and it is not even theoretically possible to defeat most monsters, no matter your level. 20th-level characters can't even hope to stand up to a Dark Young. You specifically don't get XP for killing or defeating monsters.

allonym
2008-11-24, 06:25 PM
"Roll over target number" beats "roll under skill" (unless you're using 3d6 to roll under skill).

Based upon what, beyond your personal preference? I feel that d20 works well for a high heroics game, such as D&D, because it makes for a good mix of chance with relatively easily understood modifiers; everything is plus or minus a few.

Whereas with Cthulhu, you (rightly) have no huge list of modifiers because there are no 'just better' magic weapons, and combat is less a tactical affair and more a dirty and desperate tangle. The d100 system is an excellent way of showing progressive skill advancement, and simplifies everything. It's also a simple yet sublime way of making sanity work. If I remember correctly, d20 Cthulhu still uses a d100 for SAN checks.

Frankly, the D20 cthulhu system feels shoehorned in and feels...somehow wrong.



This just isn't accurate. There are no strict guidelines for leveling (just like in almost all d20 games other than D&D; it's just "GM gives out XP at will"), and it is not even theoretically possible to defeat most monsters, no matter your level. 20th-level characters can't even hope to stand up to a Dark Young. You specifically don't get XP for killing or defeating monsters.

No-one is suggesting that D20 Cthulhu has you going toe to toe with major mythos entities. But reading through the dual system supplements, it's much more focussed upon having and winning combat as a major part of the game. The words 'Challenge Rating' should stay as far away from Cthulhu as possible.

And the problem isn't that D20 Cthulhu rewards combat with fixed XP (which it doesn't, as you point out) but instead that it uses levelling up in the first place. Codified, reward-driven character advancement places focus upon statistics and winning. Fine and enjoyable for some games, but not for Cthulhu.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-24, 06:31 PM
Frankly, the D20 cthulhu system feels shoehorned in

That would be, of course, because it essentially is. There was BRP CoC, and then WotC and Chaosium wanted money. So the D20 CoC was created with, as you said, the SAN mechanic and such shoehorned in.

Love those Acronyms

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 06:33 PM
yes. Though SAN did make reappearance in Unearthed Arcana.

Personally, I see book as an opportunity to use Cthulhu monsters in D&D games, and maybe d20 modern ones, and the CoC style play as secondary (could still be good though)

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-24, 06:36 PM
Personally, I see book as an opportunity to use Cthulhu monsters in D&D games, and maybe d20 modern ones, and the CoC style play as secondary (could still be good though)

Well I hear that at the back they give DnD stats for the big man and his buddies. That would be cool. Kewl, even

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 06:38 PM
they do. No stats for Star-spawn, but most of the big Mythos entities are statted out- all it needs is the Deities and Demigods free 3.5 update to make them usable in 3.5.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-25, 09:36 AM
Another vote for BRP. Since there aren't too many changes, any of the last 3 editions should work fine. (Obviously if you don't have any of them you should get the most recent version.)

Winterwind
2008-11-25, 09:49 AM
And another vote for the d100 version. Gaining levels really completely misses the point of Call of Cthulhu and the Lovecraftian feeling; besides, rules-light systems (such as the d100 one) are generally better suited for creating mood in general and horror in particular, in my humble opinion.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-25, 10:53 AM
Based upon what, beyond your personal preference? I feel that d20 works well for a high heroics game, such as D&D, because it makes for a good mix of chance with relatively easily understood modifiers; everything is plus or minus a few.

1. It generally makes no sense that success be based on your own ability only, rather than your own ability in relation to the difficulty of the task.
2. When you do apply difficulty (and BRP CoC does, although I suppose this might not be in the core book but in the Keeper's Companion, and in a bunch of adventures etc.), it gets all messed up in a "roll under skill" system, especially with d100. The same problem is eminently present in RuneQuest, especially MRQ. The difficulty is absolute, not relative. If the task is difficult enough to merit a -40% penalty, no one with a skill of 45% or below has a chance of success greater than the 5% automatic success chance. Similarly, if you apply a bonus for an easy task, anyone with skill over X% only has the minimum 5% failure chance.
3. Roll under skill can work, but not with d100. GURPS is a good example; there, bonuses and penalties get scaled because of the 3d6 mechanic. If your skill is 18, a -2 penalty is insignificant. This means you're so good you can complete fairly demanding tasks without any hesitation. Meanwhile, if your skill is 10, that penalty is a big, big deal.
4. The d20 "roll + bonus equal to or greater than difficulty" mechanic really isn't that much better, but it gives you an easy way to adjudicate difficulty. At least as importantly, it gives you a much better way to deal with opposed rolls, for which CoC really has no system at all. (MRQ has a decent one, but I don't recall any actual Chaosium BRP game - RQ, CoC, Stormbringer, Elric! - having one.) And check out that resistance table on p. 41 of the Keeper's Companion, an overcomplicated attempt to reconcile the fact that, by the basic rules, an ability of 110 is as superior to 100 as can be, when 11 vs. 10 only offers you a 5% edge... (A problem also present, and never really resolved, in RQ. I think MRQ just gets over this by never using ability score rolls.)

Admittedly, none of this should be that much of an issue in CoC, because the only rolls that actually matter are the ones in combat (plus sanity checks). Outside of combat, you ignore the results and go on with the story - you just make the players roll to create some suspense (and at least half the rolls are just red herrings to keep them on their toes). This is actually the biggest weakness of BRP and d20 both - if you don't ignore the rolls, then a single roll can and often will (especially in the prewritten modules) completely stall an investigation, because the PCs don't find a vital clue. Trail of Cthulhu gets over this elegantly, which is a large part of the reason ToC wipes the floor with all contenders.

Incidentally, both ToC and CoCd20 beat CoCBRP in one other respect: neither has those entirely superfluous stats for Great Old Ones or Outer/Elder Gods. CoCd20 includes D&D stats, not CoCd20 stats, for some of them, but BRP notoriously has full stats for all such creatures - a pointless exercise, because what they always amount to is "invulnerable with instant death attacks." ToC's take is even more wicked, though, because of the new ideas introduced (relating the GOOs/OGs to actual "elements" - like strong and weak nuclear force - instead of classical greek elements, and providing a ton of different interpretations).

AngelSword
2008-11-25, 11:30 AM
I'm going to go against the prevailing trend and recommend both systems. Especially if you're introducing the game to players raised on D&D. They'll pick up the d20Thulhu much faster than if you were to throw them deep into a system with which they're unfamiliar, and can then get into the game quicker. Just be sure you inform them that, while the mechanics are the same, the kick-down-the-door style of play will lead to certain death. Once you get them in the right mindset, you can then make the switch to the d% system.

What it boils down to, however, is that if you set your game up right, the system will be irrelevant.

GolemsVoice
2008-11-25, 11:42 AM
Frankly, the D20 cthulhu system feels shoehorned in and feels...somehow wrong
Hmm, just a thought. Wouldn't feeling wrong be, actually, RIGHT, within a Mythos campaign, where you are supposed to feel alien? :smallwink:

Waspinator
2008-11-25, 02:19 PM
:smallbiggrin:

If you can't find "Pokethulhu" (which is what Lovecraft meant all along :smallwink: ) then go for 6th Ed BRP CoC.

Pokethulhu is actually a free PDF, so anyone can get it really easily. I've been thinking for awhile that it'd be funny to do a PbP Pokethulhu game on these boards......

skywalker
2008-11-25, 02:23 PM
Based upon what, beyond your personal preference? I feel that d20 works well for a high heroics game, such as D&D, because it makes for a good mix of chance with relatively easily understood modifiers; everything is plus or minus a few.

Whereas with Cthulhu, you (rightly) have no huge list of modifiers because there are no 'just better' magic weapons, and combat is less a tactical affair and more a dirty and desperate tangle. The d100 system is an excellent way of showing progressive skill advancement, and simplifies everything. It's also a simple yet sublime way of making sanity work. If I remember correctly, d20 Cthulhu still uses a d100 for SAN checks.

I'm confused here. Are you saying that having easily understood modifiers is a bad thing(like in your first paragraph)? Or that simplification is a good thing(like in your second paragraph)? I've never played the BRP version, so I don't know how complicated it is, but I do know that "roll over" mechanics tend to be more easily understood than "roll under." Due to the cultural idea that high numbers are good.


I recommend 6th ed BRP also.

I would add that the d20 CoC rulebook is supposed to be far superior in presentation and fluff, and is said to be a useful brp resource. However good luck finding a copy.

It is a very nice book. It's done the way WOtC does books, which, from what I can tell, is superior to the Chaosium product I've browsed in the store. But +1 about the good luck, my keeper found his copy on eBay and guards it religiously. Actually, I might say a little too religiously, bordering on obsessively: whereas usually, he's fine with everyone eating at the gaming table around the books, he's specifically not when it comes to his d20 Cthulhu book. But whatever.

Anyway, I'd say that when I first started playing CofC, and was but a wee one when it came to RPGs, the d20 system was much easier to understand than BRP. Nowadays, I could probably grasp and understand BRP just fine, but there is that. Also, one thing to consider very seriously is that d20 Cthulhu is 3.0, not 3.5, IMO, a noticeably inferior system.

Lastly, I want to comment on the "play style" debate. While d20 D&D(and to a lesser extent, d20 modern) tend to emphasize a "kill the monsters and take their stuff" approach, d20 Cthulhu does not. d20 CofC monsters are just as deadly as their BRP counterparts. Unless, of course, the BRP monsters can kill you before their first turn, instead of on their first turn.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-25, 02:47 PM
I'm going to go against the prevailing trend and recommend both systems. Especially if you're introducing the game to players raised on D&D. They'll pick up the d20Thulhu much faster than if you were to throw them deep into a system with which they're unfamiliar, and can then get into the game quicker. Just be sure you inform them that, while the mechanics are the same, the kick-down-the-door style of play will lead to certain death. Once you get them in the right mindset, you can then make the switch to the d% system.

BRP is one of the easiest systems to learn. Roll under this number on d100 unless I tell you different. Essentially, thats it. Theres only so deep it can get.

Also, using a different system surely makes it less likely they'll kick the door down.


Unless, of course, the BRP monsters can kill you before their first turn, instead of on their first turn.

I count 4 GOOs in the BRP rulebook that can do so.

AngelSword
2008-11-25, 03:26 PM
Also, using a different system surely makes it less likely they'll kick the door down.

I wouldn't be so certain about that. Throwing people into uncertain situations will cause them to do what comes naturally (see this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbfIRh8kP8) for reference, Bob and Dave's holding onto their Hackmaster tendencies). Yes, it's a comically stereotypical example, but one that I've seen echoed in my own gaming experiences.

allonym
2008-11-25, 08:24 PM
I'm confused here. Are you saying that having easily understood modifiers is a bad thing(like in your first paragraph)? Or that simplification is a good thing(like in your second paragraph)? I've never played the BRP version, so I don't know how complicated it is, but I do know that "roll over" mechanics tend to be more easily understood than "roll under." Due to the cultural idea that high numbers are good.

I'm stating that D&D and other like systems work well with D20 because in a D&D game you will be working with a lot of stats during combat - stat bonuses, magic item pluses, buffs, feats, charging bonus, flatfooted/combat advantage, bardsong, favoured enemy, and so on and so on. The way I see it, this allows for players to have quantifiable tactical bonuses from their many sources of character power, with the right level of random chance affecting the outcome, and to make complex decisions regarding the bonuses they want.

Whereas a Cthulhu game should not be using anywhere near these kind of bonuses. Magic items are weird esoterica with unusual effects, not merely enhancements to your capabilities. Combat is not about tactical advancement, flanking, party formation and so on; it is about surviving in a dirty brawl with people exactly like you, or running the hell away from that huge thing with the tentacles. So my opinion rests that the feel of Cthulhu works better with slow personal advancement, which the wider range of a D100 gives you, and simpler rolls. I think that it's less that modifiers should be easily understandable or not, but that they should be rare or nonexistant in Cthulhu.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-25, 11:13 PM
allonym: If d20 CoC was anything like D&D, that'd be some kind of argument. Since it's not, it's not.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-26, 10:18 AM
allonym: If d20 CoC was anything like D&D, that'd be some kind of argument. Since it's not, it's not.

Well - I think he means that it uses essentially the same system. Which it does D20 Cthulhu is D20 Modern changed slightly, which is D20 changed slightly.

D20 is a tactical game, with quantified modifiers for stuff - e.g. higher ground, flanking, etc. I think the point he's making is that CoC isn't supposed to be a tactical complex system.

allonym
2008-11-26, 10:25 AM
Thankyou Project, that's basically the point.

The fact that D20 Cthulhu is different to D&D is exactly my point; that because of the differences in gameplay, the D20 ruleset is less suitable.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-26, 10:34 AM
D20 is a tactical game, with quantified modifiers for stuff - e.g. higher ground, flanking, etc. I think the point he's making is that CoC isn't supposed to be a tactical complex system.

And there's no reason it needs to be, when playing d20 CoC. Just like you ignore 90% of the rules (and there's plenty!) in BRP CoC, you can ignore them in d20 CoC. Both require pretty much the same amount of Keeper judgement as to what rules need to be applied and what don't. A bad BRP keeper will be making attack rolls in DEX order and using Move speeds when the star-spawn is chasing the PCs through a slimy cyclopean hallway, totally ruining the scene.

Seriously, though - CoC BRP doesn't have quantifiable modifiers for tactical circumstances?

How about all the rules for (just listing out of the book!) big targets, shotguns, malfunctions, jams, point-blank shooting, precision aiming and sights, extended range, unaimed shots, firearm accessories, poor visibility, cover and concealment...

Both have a bunch of rules, and the CoC rules are, frankly, less smooth, less uniform, and therefore less intuitive. None of it matters all that much, because you ignore them most of the time (again, this is why Trail of Cthulhu is the best system by miles and miles, because it has rules that actively help the game when used, and are aimed at progressing the story, rather than just being a haphazard port of RuneQuest - a tactical combat FRPG - rules like BRP is).


The fact that D20 Cthulhu is different to D&D is exactly my point; that because of the differences in gameplay, the D20 ruleset is less suitable.

I don't understand what you mean here. d20 CoC is different from D&D because it's supposed to be a very different kind of game, and those differences all exist to accommodate that kind of game. Where's the problem?

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-26, 10:56 AM
Seriously, though - CoC BRP doesn't have quantifiable modifiers for tactical circumstances?

How about all the rules for (just listing out of the book!) big targets, shotguns, malfunctions, jams, point-blank shooting, precision aiming and sights, extended range, unaimed shots, firearm accessories, poor visibility, cover and concealment...

In black boxes made clear to be optional? Seriously everything you listed is an optional spot rule.

The basic BRP rules are really simple, just give you a framework, and more importantly are really easy to fudge. I've run games where the characters only had fluff to go on to play their characters. The only dice rolling was d100, the lower the better, for conflict resolution and the odd opposed roll.

Thats all using the RAW, just with the crunch behind the screen. I knew Bob the professor had only 20% in pistol, but I could fudge it if he rolled 25% and it was plot important.

You couldn't do that as well with D20 - it's much more rulesy.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-26, 01:40 PM
The "spot rules" are not optional rules, they're just rules. (Unless you somehow consider parrying optional, which is just nonsense. It's an integral part of the BRP combat system.) They're presented in the same format as countless other things, not in any special "optional rule" format, and page 29 certainly gives no indication that they're optional rules (any more than, you know, everything is optional).

They also are not in black boxes. Seriously, look up the rulebook (5.5 edition here).

Edit: Wait, what? How does your example not work in d20? Giving an arbitrary +2 circumstance modifier to tip a player into a success when you want it is one of the most standard tricks for GMs of d20, straight out of the D&D DMG. It amounts to exactly the same thing. "I shoot at it! 16." ("Hm, the thing has AC 18, but I like him hitting it...") "You hit the thing and it stumbles back and through the window, falling with a wet, gurgling scream!"

Salz
2008-11-26, 02:28 PM
I'd go with BRP CoC.

Mainly because I dislike anything with d20's. I find (now I have not played CoC d20, but d20 modern, D&D, etc) d20 games to be less realistic, less gritty, and more heroic. I hate heroic games. It's why I play Harnmaster, Aces and Eights, and Twilight: 2000.

I can only imagine d20 CoC not being what I want it to be. The skills system in BRP CoC I think is amazing, with no classes (another thing I hate and is not in any system I play regularly) and it is easy to create your own profession. BRP rules flow well together and any combat you do encounter (and if it's a lot in CoC somethings wrong...) I have found flows quickly and smoothly.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-26, 03:24 PM
They also are not in black boxes. Seriously, look up the rulebook (5.5 edition here).

I'm holding the up-to-date, 6th edition now. All the spot rules are isolated in black boxes.


page 29 certainly gives no indication that they're optional rules (any more than, you know, everything is optional).

Hmmm. Pg 31 now, but it does say 'minor rules covering special situations'. I'll give that you that you could be right - However, the phrases 'spot rule', 'minor', and 'special situations', and the fact they are seperate from the main rules certainly suggested to me that they were optional. I mean, every Keeper I know picks and chooses from them.


Wait, what? How does your example not work in d20? Giving an arbitrary +2 circumstance modifier to tip a player into a success when you want it is one of the most standard tricks for GMs of d20, straight out of the D&D DMG. It amounts to exactly the same thing. "I shoot at it! 16." ("Hm, the thing has AC 18, but I like him hitting it...") "You hit the thing and it stumbles back and through the window, falling with a wet, gurgling scream!"

I didn't mean that so much, although I reckon it's easier to fudge more subtly with 100 possible numbers rather than 20 - less chance for the players to work out the AC or equivilent.

What I meant more was running a game where the characters didn't know their skills and abilities, any more than from a character description, and a list of things they are good at. The D20 system has feats and the like - you can chart out exactly what your character can and can't do.

I'm not saying it would be undoable - I just reckon BRP is easier to divorce from the mechanics when necessery without it being obvious and disruptive

Doomsy
2008-11-26, 05:30 PM
BRP has a better feel overall imho including learning by using skills, and tends to keep the flow without the mechanical 'what skills should I put points into' moments of D20. It is mostly a style choice. D20 might be easier, but easier is not always best.