Rich is amazing (and Shojo is still dead)

[Spiky]

Rich has completely convinced a large percentage of his readers that Shojo has come back. Even though the comic itself clearly says it's just a dream/hallucination that Belkar is having. (#606, panel 1) As if the bizarreness of the dream isn't definitive enough. Now, a week or so and several comics later, people STILL don't accept that Shojo is still off partying in his afterlife.

Kudos, as usual. I'd say you should apply for a job on Heroes (NBC), Rich. But that would be a step down at this point.

I'd also like to say thanks for the clear answer to "what is Belkar's alignment" in 610. Maybe some of the silly threads can die.

[Connington]

There's little dispute that Shojo is dead and not coming back. The only question is if this it's just a hallucination brought on by fever, or a lecture triggered by activating the Mark of Justice. There are good arguments to be made on both sides. Belkar and Shojo both refer to this as a dream, and the difficult of making a lecture that's customized and responds to events. On the other hand, it's awfully direct and sudden for the subconscious of someone as lacking in wisdom as Belkar, and the passcode is bizarrely thematically fitting.

[Vemynal]

belker is lawful good i tel you! its all a conspiracy!

heh

and i agree about the heroes comment >.>

[Zeitgeist]

Wait, I must have missed something. Who claimed Shojo is alive? No matter how you interpret the dream, it says nothing about Shojo being alive or dead.

[SPoD]

The fact that it is a dream does not mean that it is not Shojo actually contacting him. Dead people making contact through dreams is a recurring theme in fiction. I don't personally think it IS Shojo, but the fact that it is happening in a dream is not reason enough to dismiss the concept entirely.

[Red XIV]

The question is, why would Shojo choose to communicate from beyond the grave with Belkar? Just because they're both Chaotic and Belkar thinks Shojo is cool doesn't mean they were best buds or anything. And the advice he gave wasn't exactly anything that would help in dealing with the Snarl.

On the other hand, the illusory Shojo seems way too intelligent to be a part of Belkar's subconscious.

[[TS] Shadow]

On the other hand, the illusory Shojo seems way too intelligent to be a part of Belkar's subconscious.

Belkar isn't dumb, he can actually be quite smart. To quote a fighter:
:roy: I let him out of jail because he's too strong and too clever-in his own brain-damaged way-to be held prisioner by any jail cell I've ever seen.

[Helanna]

the passcode is bizarrely thematically fitting.

Well, "Evolve or die" would be a fitting password for pretty much anytime a Mark of Justice had to be taken off. If you had it put on you, and then had to have it taken off, it would be a clear warning that you'd better shape up or you would die. For all we know, maybe people who committed crimes after having a MoJ taken off were executed.

I really don't think that it's a pre-programmed lecture, although Rich is indeed amazing and would be able to make it work.


Shadow]
On the other hand, the illusory Shojo seems way too intelligent to be a part of Belkar's subconscious.
Belkar isn't dumb, he can actually be quite smart. To quote a fighter:
I let him out of jail because he's too strong and too clever-in his own brain-damaged way-to be held prisioner by any jail cell I've ever seen.

I was going to answer that, but you did it for so . . . thanks!

[Liwen]

I have to second the motion of "Belkar isn't dumb". We know for certain that his wisdom score is at most 9, and that would justify his psychopatic asocial bahavior in the past. He simple don't realise how much simpler, more sastisfying and more helpfull being nice and friendly is in the long run. In fact, it took a spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) to open his eyes to this reality.

9 wisdom will justify taking the wrong decisions, but you can still manage cleverness.

[Magothys]

The fact that it is a dream does not mean that it is not Shojo actually contacting him. Dead people making contact through dreams is a recurring theme in fiction. I don't personally think it IS Shojo, but the fact that it is happening in a dream is not reason enough to dismiss the concept entirely.

I'm skeptical about it working in the OotS world; see comic 531 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html). Perhaps there's some kind of prerequisite Roy didn't meet, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Corwin Weber]

Rich has completely convinced a large percentage of his readers that Shojo has come back. Even though the comic itself clearly says it's just a dream/hallucination that Belkar is having. (#606, panel 1) As if the bizarreness of the dream isn't definitive enough. Now, a week or so and several comics later, people STILL don't accept that Shojo is still off partying in his afterlife.

Kudos, as usual. I'd say you should apply for a job on Heroes (NBC), Rich. But that would be a step down at this point.

I'd also like to say thanks for the clear answer to "what is Belkar's alignment" in 610. Maybe some of the silly threads can die.

Um, ok.

The current theories are 1) Belkar is hallucinating due to illness, 2) Belkar is hallucinating as a preprogrammed part of the MoJ and 3) Belkar is actually talking to Shojo's ghost in a dream sequence.

....which one of these has Shojo 'coming back?' Even 3 would only be coming back to the OOtS world temporarily.

[elliott20]

Bah, you are ALL wrong! Belkar's alignment is clearly Rocky Road!

[Querzis]

I'm skeptical about it working in the OotS world; see comic 531 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html). Perhaps there's some kind of prerequisite Roy didn't meet, but it doesn't seem likely.

Meh I dont think its Shojo ghost but I do think its part of the spell. Some spells, especially illusions, adapt to the one who is affected by the spell and, though they will see, hear and feels different things, the effect of the spell will stay the same (in this case, evolve or die). Since we already know that this MoJ is much more powerfull then a normal MoJ, I dont think adding an illusion would be very hard.

[Hydro Globus]

Why would it be more powerful?

[Querzis]

Why would it be more powerful?

Well dandwiki seems to be down right now so I cant link it but Mark of Justice is a real spell and its really nowhere as powerfull as Belkar MoJ. Its supposed to make you weaker but thats it, Belkar would still be able to fight. Also, a normal MoJ doesnt require a password.

Even if its not working right now, I'll link it to you anyway:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mark_of_Justice

[factotum]

Well dandwiki seems to be down right now so I cant link it but Mark of Justice is a real spell and its really nowhere as powerfull as Belkar MoJ.

Shojo's Giant Head said in #569 that what Belkar had was a GREATER Mark of Justice, not just an MoJ--so, presumably some homebrew spell which is more powerful than the standard one.

[evileeyore]

Shojo's Giant Head said in #569 that what Belkar had was a GREATER Mark of Justice, not just an MoJ--so, presumably some homebrew spell which is more powerful than the standard one.


Yup, and Rich isn't above twisting the rules to make a good story.

[ErrantMage]

Yeah I agree with you on that.


For anyone missing B's chaotic evil before #610, you best have started reading late and never looked back. Unholy Blight showed he was evil in the very beginning. Then Miko then Roy in afterlife... Clearly he was chaotic evil the whole time.

No matter how Shojo appeared, perhaps it is a combination of all three of those things, it surpasses the revelation of V's Owl's Wisdom on B. So if he really had the mental capacity to dream this his normal actions fall far below. If it was part of the spell, then the actions within should not carry relevant data or answer questions, when no need for them exists. Third, if it was Shojo's soul doing a direct communication it would be more like Roy and his Dad, requiring B to be awake to carry on a conversation.

He is clearly dreaming or hallucinating so it has to be some combination of Shojo in his mind and not just the mark causing it. Perhaps the curse ingrained some connection to Shojo and contact (even subconciously or spiritually) between the two can only occur when B is suffering under its affect.

[NerfTW]

Rich has completely convinced a large percentage of his readers that Shojo has come back. Even though the comic itself clearly says it's just a dream/hallucination that Belkar is having. (#606, panel 1) As if the bizarreness of the dream isn't definitive enough. Now, a week or so and several comics later, people STILL don't accept that Shojo is still off partying in his afterlife.

Kudos, as usual. I'd say you should apply for a job on Heroes (NBC), Rich. But that would be a step down at this point.

I'd also like to say thanks for the clear answer to "what is Belkar's alignment" in 610. Maybe some of the silly threads can die.

Readers will believe a lot of things. You're just choosing to focus on some non-existent subset at the exclusion of all others.

Not to mention Belkar's alignment has been given repeatedly over the strip's run. From way back in #11 with the Unholy Blight spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), to more recently in #489, where a Diva explicitly states it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) Not to mention Origins and Rich's own posts on the subject here on the boards, where people will still tell him he's wrong to his face, because that's just what people on message boards do.

[SPoD]

The question is, why would Shojo choose to communicate from beyond the grave with Belkar?

Hypothetically? Because Mr. Scruffy was the single most important person in Shojo's lonely life, and whether he likes it or not, Belkar is the only one willing to take care of the little furry guy. If Belkar died here, Mr. Scruffy is back to living on the streets, so it would be in Shojo's interest to take whatever action he could to prevent that. The only thing he can do is talk to Belkar in his dreams, so he does.

Also, whether or not Roy can do something has no bearing on whether or not Shojo can. If nothing else, Shojo is a Chaotic spirit; he'll break the rules of the cosmos if he damn well pleases!

[Fitzclowningham]

Originally posted by SPoD: Also, whether or not Roy can do something has no bearing on whether or not Shojo can. If nothing else, Shojo is a Chaotic spirit; he'll break the rules of the cosmos if he damn well pleases!

Also, it could be said that Belkar and Shojo are linked via the Mark of Justice, much as Roy and Eugene were by the ancestral sword.