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Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 09:27 PM
So I'm trying my hand at DnD again. I'm DMing a session over Thanksgiving at my friends house. Players are:

Me: I'm the DM. Woo! :smallbiggrin:
GF: She's a pretty good player - no worries there. Her player is a... lvl 1 half-elf Fighter, IIRC. She RP's her as a bounty hunter.
GF's best friend: She's a decent player. A bit ADD, and she likes to start random conversations mid-encounter. She has an... Eladrin Fighter, IIRC.

Those are the confirmed players. There are 3-4 others who might be able to play...

Friend of mine: He's a good player. Human... ranger, IIRC. He RPs him as an archeologist or something.
My roommate: He's an excellent player. He just started playing last week, and I'm running a solo-campaign for him. His character is a human Paladin... for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. His RPing and playstyle often have me on the floor laughing hysterically.
GF's best friend's brother: Yep. You know who I'm talking about. He's that kind of player. His own words: "I want to kill things and dominate the other players." He's not invited - I just get the feeling he'll end up playing. Don't worry - I'm prepared. :smallbiggrin: (For more info on him, try to find my thread/stories about the Evil DM I had to deal with... :smallamused:)
GF's best friend's sister: Never met her before, but the best friend says she might play with us.


So, I'm expecting a party of 3 players, 4 max. I have 3 session ideas:


-Kobold Lair
-Monster Hunting
-Assassination


Kobold Lair: A typical dungeon crawl. Players must enter a cave, hack through a few waves of kobolds, and then deal with the BBEG at the end of the cave. However, BBEG is a bit different from the usual "tougher than normal Kobold" you might be expecting. He's a Wyrmpriest... who's in the process of reviving a dead dragon.

Relax, its a super-weak zombie dragon, a la Xykon's mount from OotS.

Basically, it'll take 1d10 rounds for the Wyrmpriest to reanimate the pile of bones on the alter in front of him. OR 100 HP must be lost in the room - the blood will be drawn towards the alter, where it will feed the dark magic reviving the dragon.

If the PCs run away, the zombie dragon will ravage the local countryside. If they kill it, XP and good Karma for everybody! :D


Monster Hunting: Every played Monster Hunter? Basically, the PCs will just have to go kill a few low-level critters. Maybe a pack of weak wolves, or something simple like that. You know, just to get them acquainted with the game...


Assassination: The old stand-by in my games. "Person A" is staying on the top floor of "Hotel A" and you must kill "Person A" through any means neccissary. I've taught my bro and my roommate to play DnD through these quests, so I know they work. But they're so... over-done. But the thing is, these cliche sessions always end up with the best stories... :smallconfused:



I'm also printing out 2 spare characters - a healer and a spellcaster of some sort. That way if the bro and/or sister play, I can just save us all a lot of time and hand them pre-made characters. :smallbiggrin:


So, comments? Questions? Concerns? Advice? Ridicule? :smallsmile:

Yodaman23
2008-11-23, 10:57 PM
Yeah, switch to 3.5.
I'm still bitter.
Sounds good though man you are more prepared then I was hours before my games.

ColdSepp
2008-11-23, 11:01 PM
4E is a lot of fun. I suggest trying to get at least 1 leader, the healing they give is nice (Cleric, Bard, Warlord).

Also, there is a Kobold Lair w/Frost Dragon in the back of the DMG, that might help. You could reflavor it as a zombie.

Lappy9000
2008-11-23, 11:01 PM
Yeah, switch to 3.5.
I'm still bitter.
Sounds good though man you are more prepared then I was hours before my games.

Awwww....you gotta admit that was a bit of a sucker punch there...

I actually like the kobold idea. Just be sure to put plenty of traps in that dungeon. And, if you wanna put a twist on things, have the town be on a mountain perch or something, and instead of the usual "kobolds are being mischevious!!" they're actually rolling boulders down on the town!

The PCs will have to ascend a treacherous mountain to assail a bunch of kobolds who know the terrain like the backs of their hands (claws?), and utilize it against the PCs.

Let there be some of the dragon's hoard left over if they're reluctant to take up the quest :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

Also, there is a Kobold Lair w/Frost Dragon in the back of the DMG, that might help. You could reflavor it as a zombie.

Treacherous freezing mountain pass.

Thant
2008-11-23, 11:03 PM
Yeah, switch to 3.5.
I'm still bitter.
Sounds good though man you are more prepared then I was hours before my games.

There's wisdom in his words, do what he said. 3.5 is really way better than 4e:smalltongue:

Rockphed
2008-11-23, 11:07 PM
The thing at the back of the DMG isn't quite what you want, but it is a good place to start. There are also a few guidelines for what to put in an encounter somewhere in the DMG. Things like: Solo of level +1 and 2 skirmishers of level for a fairly challenging encounter. I wish I could remember where it is, but I can't.

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:08 PM
To be honest, I'd love to switch back to 3.5e. But my group wanted to do 4e, because it was supposed to be more newbie-friendly. Oh well, it has its pros and cons. And my roommate wouldn't have played unless it was 4e - he's a recovering WoW addict, so he took to 4e like a duck to water. Apparently, it IS WoW on paper, according to him. :smallamused:


Anyway, I have a few questions that still need answers, though. You see, I only had the money for the PHB. :smalleek: I've had to basically homebrew a lot of stuff, although I did get the real stats for Kobolds, Goblins, and other low-level baddies. Anyway, a few things I still need to cover are:

-What are the properties of a 4e Health Potion? I'm assuming it just allows you to spend a healing surge, correct? What would the average price-range of one of these puppies be?

-How much XP should certain enemies give? For example, my roommate's level 1 Paladin took down a lvl 3 Cleric, albiet with some help. How much XP should he have gotten? I gave him 500, IIRC...

-How bad should the zombie dragon be? I figured he'd be pretty weak, because:
a- the spell was rushed
b- the dragon was quite young when it croaked
c- its basically a pile of bones with some cruddy muscles and skin on it
d- I'd like to avoid an instant TPK... :smallannoyed:


So how bad should he be for there to be a realistic chance of victory for the PCs? Lvl 3? 50 HP? I've already given him some pretty nifty attacks, like a tail whip attack that does several D6s of damage, but it takes a round to prepare it.



Also, if they decide to just do the monster hunting quest, I'm going to have them come across a Gazebo, just to see how they react. :smallamused:

Flickerdart
2008-11-23, 11:09 PM
Play a game made entirely of something 3.5 can't do, just to show them all. Do the non-combat encounter rules make sense yet? Use that, maybe.

Alternately, run challenges that 3.5 characters would be able to solve easily but astound your 4E players. Feature a Wizard NPC who's become an alcoholic from the stress.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-23, 11:09 PM
4E is a lot of fun. I suggest trying to get at least 1 leader, the healing they give is nice (Cleric, Bard, Warlord).


Seconded, except that I swap "nice" for "crucial". It helps that warlords are really, really badass, so if you get no leaders and some people haven't chosen a class yet, you can propose a warlord to them.

NPCMook
2008-11-23, 11:11 PM
I believe this was a give advice on DMing a game, not bash 4e

Kobolds would probably be your best bet, there is plenty of additional info on Kobolds. If you do go with it go with the Kobold Victory chart, its pretty hilarious in many ways.

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:14 PM
Kobold Victory chart? :smallconfused: You've piqued my interest, sir...


Also, I may have to DMPC a Warlord. None of my players ever seem to realize the importance of a healer until they're all down to 2 HP. I think my friend once said upon reaching the 1-hit-kill zone: "Dang. One of us really should have been a Cleric." Really? *facepalm*

I already have a DMPC for my roommate's campaign (lvl 5 evil human rogue who was originally just a background NPC, but he managed to play his cards right and make nice with the guy...), but there's no way plot-wise for him to be present unless the FSM Paladin is. Plus, that'd make things unfair... :smallannoyed:

Roland St. Jude
2008-11-23, 11:17 PM
I believe this was a give advice on DMing a game, not bash 4e...

Sheriff of Moddingham: I agree. The kind of edition-sniping comments being made here are borderline trolling. Please don't.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-23, 11:17 PM
-What are the properties of a 4e Health Potion? I'm assuming it just allows you to spend a healing surge, correct? What would the average price-range of one of these puppies be?

-How much XP should certain enemies give? For example, my roommate's level 1 Paladin took down a lvl 3 Cleric, albiet with some help. How much XP should he have gotten? I gave him 500, IIRC...

-How bad should the zombie dragon be? I figured he'd be pretty weak, because:
a- the spell was rushed
b- the dragon was quite young when it croaked
c- its basically a pile of bones with some cruddy muscles and skin on it
d- I'd like to avoid an instant TPK... :smallannoyed:


So how bad should he be for there to be a realistic chance of victory for the PCs? Lvl 3? 50 HP? I've already given him some pretty nifty attacks, like a tail whip attack that does several D6s of damage, but it takes a round to prepare it.


Health potions are minor action to use, allow use of a healing surge, cost about the same as an old cure light, and heal 10 health each time.

Dragon depends on PC resource conservation. If you don't give them time to rest, its XP budget is added to the prior encounter.

XP is 75+25/level (for the first 5 or so levels, at least. It grows funny). *2 for elite, *5 for solo, /4 for minion.

Dragon cannot be a solo unless the PC's can take a short rest, at least. Design... hm. Can you post your current description, level, and difficulty (solo, elite, none, minion), and the rest of the encounter?

Solo enemies in 4e are tough. A level 1 solo brute has about 80+ health. Elites have about half that. Level 2 solo brute has 110'ish. Again, half for elite, 1/4 for normal. There's a nice damage chart in DMG I wish I could post.

NPCMook
2008-11-23, 11:18 PM
Kobold Victory chart? :smallconfused: You've piqued my interest, sir...


Also, I may have to DMPC a Warlord. None of my players ever seem to realize the importance of a healer until they're all down to 2 HP. I think my friend once said upon reaching the 1-hit-kill zone: "Dang. One of us really should have been a Cleric." Really? *facepalm*

I already have a DMPC for my roommate's campaign (lvl 5 evil human rogue who was originally just a background NPC, but he managed to play his cards right and make nice with the guy...), but there's no way plot-wise for him to be present unless the FSM Paladin is. Plus, that'd make things unfair... :smallannoyed:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dragon/364_Creature_Incarnations.pdf

Random NPC
2008-11-23, 11:20 PM
{Scrubbed}

NPCMook
2008-11-23, 11:22 PM
{Scrubbed}

Way to push the thread into a lock...

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:33 PM
Okay, here's the basic idea.

After the party fights through a few encounters of Kobolds, there's a ladder going down into a pit. Once they descend it, they are met with the following sight:


The room they enter is a large circular shrine of some sort. A large raised platform sits in the center of the room, surrounded by candles and cushions used in worship ceremonies. Upon the platform lie the scattered bones of a young dragon, which have been cleaned and cared for with great attention. In the center of the circular platform stands a Kobold Wyrmpriest, who is in the middle of reciting an incantation. He is flanked by two Kobold Dragonshields.

Basically, the Dragonshields will keep the party busy while the Wyrmpriest does the ritual. (Nothing specific - it just revives the dead dragon) I figure they'll drop rather quickly, which is why the Wyrmpriest has made this spell work in a special manner: Every drop of blood spilt upon the bones makes it stronger. So if a certain amount of blood (HP) is spilt (lost) on the platform, the dragon is revived.

In fact, to save time and make it more epic, I think that the spilling of the Wyrmpriest's blood will be the last part of the ritual. So once the party drops him, the dragon's bones will begin to draw back together and grow flesh.

I think the regeneration time for the dragon will be 1-2 rounds. That'll give the party some time to heal and prepare themselves... or run like scared cowards.

So, we're looking at 3-4 PCs verses one zombie dragon.

My current stats for the Zombie Dragon, as taken from my old notes:

Lvl 2 - 250 XP
50 HP
Initiative +4
Speed 4
AC -10 (its scales are mostly rotted off)
Fort - 15
Ref - 10 (its barely holding itself together, let alone moving around quickly)
Will - 12

Attacks:
Claw - STR vs. AC - Range 1 square - 1d8 damage, Knocks target back 2 squares
Tail Whip - STR vs. AC - Range 2 squares - One round warm-up - 3d6 damage, knocks target back 4 squares (+1d4 damage if they hit a wall)
Bite - DEX vs. REF - 2d6 damage, Grapple Check (If Swallowed, 1d4 damage per round, Reflex Save Ends)


So yeah, 1 zombie dragon vs. 3-4 PCs who will probably be half-dead and won't know what they're doing. :-/

NPCMook
2008-11-23, 11:37 PM
I have access to both the Draconomicon 1 and MM if you wants any ideas for other dragons

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:39 PM
But aren't normal dragons still a TPK for a lvl 1 party, even at their lowest level? :smallconfused:

Lappy9000
2008-11-23, 11:42 PM
But aren't normal dragons still a TPK for a lvl 1 party, even at their lowest level? :smallconfused:

Partially-animated zombie dragon. Rule 0, roll with it, and you should be fine.

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:43 PM
And Rule 0 is...? :smallconfused:


You'll have to forgive me. I'm a CoC Keeper by trade. DnD 4e is a whole new thing to me, really...

NPCMook
2008-11-23, 11:43 PM
We had a party of 6 level 1 kill a level 3 Adolescent Green Dragon... We snuck up on him and the Warlord gave us like a +6 to hit against the dragon for the entire encounter. He wasn't very threatening to begin with, the +6 to hit him just made it over kill.

EDIT: I should mention my DM thinks a Solo Encounter means the monster is alone, no minions...

Rockphed
2008-11-23, 11:46 PM
And Rule 0 is...? :smallconfused:

Rule 0: When it all comes down to it, the Game-master is the court of last resort.

In this case, however, 4th edition does have relatively simple rules for dropping things a couple levels. Namely, lower defenses and attack bonuses by 1 per level changed and lower damage by 1 for every 2 levels changed. Hit points change is the hard part that I never quite wrapped my head around. Does anybody understand that one?

Lycan 01
2008-11-23, 11:47 PM
Ah. I see...

Wait, that ISN'T what solo means? :smallconfused:


I bet you're all wonder how I even became my groups DM, aren't you? :smalltongue: You know that guy I mentioned? Yeah... He was our last DM...

Arbitrarity
2008-11-23, 11:53 PM
Lvl 2 - 250 XP
50 HP
Initiative +4
Speed 4
AC -10 (its scales are mostly rotted off)
Fort - 15
Ref - 10 (its barely holding itself together, let alone moving around quickly)
Will - 12

Attacks:
Claw - STR vs. AC - Reach 1 square - 1d8 damage, Knocks target back 2 squares
Tail Whip - STR vs. AC - Reach 2 squares - One round warm-up - 3d6 damage, knocks target back 4 squares (+1d4 damage if they hit a wall)
Bite - DEX vs. REF - Reach ? 2d6 damage, Grapple Check (If Swallowed, 1d4 damage per round, Reflex Save Ends)


So yeah, 1 zombie dragon vs. 3-4 PCs who will probably be half-dead and won't know what they're doing. :-/

Ok, needs moar stats. Also, more regularity.

650 xp encounter. That's... moderately hard for a party of 4. You'll want a leader. Also, the seperation of encounters likely makes it a bit easier, but not enough. I'm going to compare to a young white dragon, with some debuffs (1/2 hp, reduced attacks, -2 AC and fort, -1 all defenses and attacks)

First: All attacks can be reach 2. Around +5 vs AC is good for a second level brute, +3 vs other defenses. I assume this is a brute, based on the defenses.
Standard defenses would be 16'ish AC, 16'ish fort, 14'ish ref and will. Your defenses are very, very low for an elite brute. HP should easily be around 90.

Claws should be about medium damage, with the nice secondary effect. However, what benefit does the push effect give? If none, you can just remove it, and give a claw of about 2d4+5 or similar (or, even make 2 claws, +5 vs AC, 1d4+3 each or something). Otherwise, 1d8+4 would be good. With the low to-hit, it's not connecting that often.

Problem: Grapple doesn't work the same in 4e. No swallow, no reflex saves, etc. What you might try is
"Bite:
At will, Reach 2 melee
+3 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d8+4 damage and the target is grabbed until escape. "

However, grab is a bit weak, to be honest. Most dragon bites deal ongoing damage or similar. Perhaps ongoing 4 necrotic damage (save ends)? Reduce the damage to 2d6 then.

Tail whip is weird. The warmup involves using a turn? It can afford to be much more powerful.


Tail Whip:
Recharge 5, and when the zombie dragon becomes bloodied
Standard Action
Close Burst 1
+3 vs AC
On hit: 3d6+3 damage, and the target is pushed 4 squares.
Simple, and I think on par.

Rockphed
2008-11-23, 11:58 PM
Solos are supposed to be able to be a challenge for a party on their own. A solo of 3 levels higher than the party should be a hard encounter, if there are exactly 5 PCs. It sounds like the DM forgot to take into account that you got the drop on the dragon, since a level 3 solo is worth 750xp, exactly enough for a level 2 encounter.

Since a solo of the party's level should be a standard encounter, and an encounter a couple levels above the party's level should be hard adding minions, elites or standard monsters to a solo allows the solo to have backup. Solos count for 5 normal monsters not just because they are tough, but also because they tend to be able to attack multiple targets at once. Dragons, for instance, have their breath weapon, and most also can make multiple claw attacks in a round. Adding more monsters into the mix mixes thing up a bit.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-24, 12:07 AM
I already have a DMPC for my roommate's campaign (lvl 5 evil human rogue who was originally just a background NPC, but he managed to play his cards right and make nice with the guy...), but there's no way plot-wise for him to be present unless the FSM Paladin is. Plus, that'd make things unfair... :smallannoyed:

You could just try saying "I'm not running without a Leader". If there's 4 of them, at least. I agree, it's hardass, but there's just some things that need to be present, and it's not strictly fair to make the GM do them in addition to normal GM duties.

I mean roleplaying him as a real character in addition to every other character who you had before, not running him in combat. Though roleplaying him in combat is likely to feel phoned in..

NPCMook
2008-11-24, 12:07 AM
Actually the dragon can swallow the character, The Astral Dreadnought does, when you are swallowed it transports you to an area that is only 6x6 I believe.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/Excerpt_Dreadnought.pdf Now while he is a level 24 Solo, its of course possible to stealborrow ideas form this creature.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/BoneMongrel.pdf He's a little high level, but I believe the monster leveling rules are good for up to 5 levels, Brute I believe gain 10 HP per level, so dropping it 5 levels would bring it down by 50 HP for a total of 168

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 12:09 AM
Hmmm... That does look a bit better. I just wonder if my party can handle it...

Also, the knock back is so they have to waste time running back up to the dragon, since they are mostly melee fighters. If they have to waste their turn on a move action AND their attack action, they don't have time for anything else, like healing or something.

So basically, it should look more like this:

Lvl 2 - 400 XP
90 HP
Initiative +6
Speed 4
AC -16
Fort - 16
Ref - 14
Will - 14

Attacks:
Claw - At-Will - +5 vs. AC - Reach 2 Melee - 1d8+5 damage, Knocks target back 2 squares
Bite - At-Will - +3 vs. REF - Reach 2 Melee - 2d6 damage, +4 Necrotic damage per turn from corrosive saliva (Save Ends)

Tail Whip:
Recharge 5, and when the zombie dragon becomes bloodied
Standard Action
Close Burst 1
+3 vs AC
On hit: 3d6+3 damage, and the target is pushed 4 squares.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-24, 12:16 AM
Actually the dragon can swallow the character, The Astral Dreadnought does, when you are swallowed it transports you to an area that is only 6x6 I believe.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/Excerpt_Dreadnought.pdf Now while he is a level 24 Solo, its of course possible to stealborrow ideas form this creature.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/BoneMongrel.pdf He's a little high level, but I believe the monster leveling rules are good for up to 5 levels, Brute I believe gain 10 HP per level, so dropping it 5 levels would bring it down by 50 HP for a total of 168

I like the bone mongrel. Remember HP is doubles for brutes, so dropping 5 levels would lower HP 5*10*2, or 100 hp, for 118. AC is still up at 17 though, yuck. To hit looks OK. However, damage needs to be lowered. More. A lot. Holy cow, that thing is out of line with DMG damage rules. Bite should be doing like 1d6+3, ongoing 4.

Breath weapon should deal about 2d8+5, ongoing reduced to 3, going to 6 on failed save.

Other than that, take 5 off all attacks and defenses, -100 hp, and should be pretty good. Strong, but probably not too bad.

Well, that statblock was basically copying DM toolbox stats for damage, etc. Remember to give it an AP, +2 on saves, and you can switch stuff anyways. Lower AC can be compensated with more HP or better to-hit. Also, a breath weapon wouldn't hurt.

You know how a recharge power works, right?

Also, wow, that's low to hit, compared to say, orchre jelly. Damage... is similar. No shift power, or senses, worse AC, same other defenses, similar HP, no split ability. But control, and a nice AOE attack.

Yeah, I'd say on par. XP value is way off though. Level 2 elites are 250 XP. 400 would be a level 5 elite.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 12:28 AM
Wait, are you talking to me in the last part of your post?

Um... I would assume it means it has to recharge... right? :smalltongue: So yeah, it can only be used once every 5 rounds. Seems simple enough.

So... tweak the XP, and what else?


No breath weapon - it doesn't have internal organs, so there's really no way to produce fire or any other chemicals needed for a breath weapon. (Believe me, if I didn't point that out, the "Archeologist" guy would...)

Alyss
2008-11-24, 12:45 AM
Tell him it's magic. Last time I checked, dragons existing at all didn't make any sense.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-24, 12:46 AM
Wait, are you talking to me in the last part of your post?

Um... I would assume it means it has to recharge... right? :smalltongue: So yeah, it can only be used once every 5 rounds. Seems simple enough.

So... tweak the XP, and what else?


No breath weapon - it doesn't have internal organs, so there's really no way to produce fire or any other chemicals needed for a breath weapon. (Believe me, if I didn't point that out, the "Archeologist" guy would...)

No. Recharge is a roll triggered at the end of the creature's turn. Roll 1d6, and if the roll is the same or higher than the recharge value, the power is recharged.

I'm talking to myself. On the internet. Wut.

Hm. Seems OK, but I'm not quite sure, since I slapped that together in a few minutes. It's more worthy of the difficulty than the prior monster. Remember, 4e characters are really tough.

Maybe add vulnerability 5 to radiant damage?

Modify anything you feel like, just try to figure out how it affects the math. If the AC is reduced to 10, for example, in a melee heavy party, they're going to gain about 70-80% average Damage per round, and makes landing encounter and daily powers easy (Melee to hit is likely 4 (stat) + 2 (proficiency) + 1 (fighter) or similar. Good chance to hit AC 18, but AC 10 would be cake. HP would need to be seriously increased, or perhaps a bonus to attacks and damage.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 12:57 AM
I don't like to just say "Oh, its just magic!" when it comes to certain things. Especially dragons. I like to add depth to the game by explaining how things worth. Dragon, for example, breath fire due to glands located in their throat. One gland injects a chemical into its throat as the dragon exhales, instantly clouding the breath in its throat with the chemical. Then, another gland in the back of its mouth releases another chemical, just as the breath enters its mouth. These two chemicals, upon combining, create a reation that results in... well... fire. The cloud of flame is then exhaled out of the dragons mouth, and then it burninates whatever it comes in contact with.

Same principle works for acid - two chemicals mix and create a corrisive mixture. Electricity is created by several organs inside the creature's throat, similar to those that line the body of an electric eel.

But I digress...



You're over-estimating my party. We almost had a TPK to a handful of Kobold minions, skirmishers, and 2 skirmishers. Creatures with 1 HP did about 20 times their health in damage over the course of the battle. >_>

What would the Vulnarability to Radiant Damage do? I know, I suck. >.< I know the basics and everything, but its all the smaller details that make me feel dumb. At least I know what Radiant damage is... Or at least, I think I do. :smalltongue:


Also, Arbitrary, I thought you were talking to NPCMook since you quoted him, not me... Thus the confusion on my part.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-24, 01:02 AM
I did originally talk sorta to him. I liked the deleveling option, and was considering how to balance it.

Vulnerability to (damage type) means whenever the creature takes damage of that type, the damage deals an additional 5 damage. Exception: Ongoing damage never triggers vulnerability, IIRC. So if a skeleton takes 3 radiant damage, it is increased to 8. It's a staple of undead, since they tend to be weak against light. It improves paladins and clerics, often.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 01:06 AM
Ah, okay. That makes sense...

Hm. I'll probably whip up those stand in characters tommorrow - one of whom will definitely be a Warlord - and then probably test them against our creation. If the fight is one sided in either direction, I'll know where to make some tweaks.

But I think it looks alright... :smallsmile:


Of course, I know we probably won't get to it, one way or another. :smallannoyed:

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 01:07 AM
But aren't normal dragons still a TPK for a lvl 1 party, even at their lowest level? :smallconfused:

Not the young dragons.
My party killed a young white dragon without a single casualty. In fact, they had healing surges to spare!
Also, the Draconomicon features Wyrmlings which are basically newborn dragons. Those aren't even elites. If a wyrmling is a TPK, your party is doing something horribly, horribly wrong.

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 01:11 AM
You could just try saying "I'm not running without a Leader". If there's 4 of them, at least. I agree, it's hardass, but there's just some things that need to be present, and it's not strictly fair to make the GM do them in addition to normal GM duties.



{Scrubbed}
You don't absolutely need a leader in the group if the DM is doing their job properly.
If you don't have a leader, all the DM has to do is increase the number of healing potions.

You can do without any of the roles.

No controller? Make smaller groups of enemies and don't throw any minions into the fray.
No striker? Don't use Elites and cut down on the number of high HP enemies.
No defender? Don't use enemies that deal tons of damage.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-24, 01:27 AM
{Scrubbed}
You don't absolutely need a leader in the group if the DM is doing their job properly.
If you don't have a leader, all the DM has to do is increase the number of healing potions.
Potions burn surges. That means you rest sooner. Potions are far less potent then powers, as a rule. There's a myriad of reasons why that alone isn't a solution. And I am hopefully mistaken, but Potions may use a Daily item use.

Besides, I'm not the one who's saying "I'm uncomfortable running without healing". I agree in theory; It's possible to work around, but why should the burden fall on the GM to the point of rewriting everything when a player can change? And bear in mind I tilt heavily towards the player as a rule.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 01:32 AM
Who said anything about giving them potions? :smallconfused:

If they don't bring it, they can't have it. I might have a weapons cache in one of the Kobold barracks, and maybe a Health Potion or two in there was well, but there won't be much helpful stuff in the dungeon itself. The loot comes from finishing the quest, not the quest itself.

Gao
2008-11-24, 01:57 AM
{Scrubbed}

Rockphed
2008-11-24, 02:02 AM
No. Recharge is a roll triggered at the end of the creature's turn. Roll 1d6, and if the roll is the same or higher than the recharge value, the power is recharged.

Actually, it is if the roll is equal to one of the recharge numbers the power is recharged. Thus if the monster has two recharging powers, one could be recharge 4, 6 and the other could be recharge 5, 6, and they would recharge together some of the time and separately the rest.

It doesn't really matter in this case, since the goal is simply to have the tail-whip recharge once every 3 turns on average, but I think some dragons have multiple recharging powers.

ColdSepp
2008-11-24, 02:04 AM
Looks like they already showed you the bone mongrel dracolich, I was going to recommend that.

Party wise, I recommend a Striker, Defender, Leader, and anything else. Those three are really needed. A dragonborn can do nice control/minion clearing with its encounter breath, if you don't have a controller.

Healing is only one aspect of leaders, their party bonuses really, really help. And potions/second wind are poor, because they really hurt the action economy. They are Standard Actions, unless you are a dwarf.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-24, 02:06 AM
"At the start of the monster's turn, roll 1d6. If the roll is one of the dice results shown, the power is recharged and the monster can use it again that turn"

Wait a second. Is that one roll/turn, or one roll/power/turn?

ColdSepp
2008-11-24, 02:07 AM
"At the start of the monster's turn, roll 1d6. If the roll is one of the dice results shown, the power is recharged and the monster can use it again that turn"

Wait a second. Is that one roll/turn, or one roll/power/turn?

One roll per power, per turn.

ColdSepp
2008-11-24, 02:11 AM
Draconic Zombie might fit, but it's a L9 Elite Brute

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 02:15 AM
Well, I guess it's just a matter of different play-style then.
My party seems to get along fine when the cleric doesn't show up, so I think I'm doing something right.
If you want to tell four people that they can't play because one of them doesn't want to play a certain role, then go for it.

Gao
2008-11-24, 02:20 AM
Well, I guess it's just a matter of different play-style then.
My party seems to get along fine when the cleric doesn't show up, so I think I'm doing something right.
If you want to tell four people that they can't play because one of them doesn't want to play a certain role, then go for it.

It seems more likely that you go easy on your players than if any addition or subtraction of a character actually doesn't matter. Try coming up with encounters for a balanced party, and see what combination come out on top and what don't. Trust me: The ones without the leaders won't.

ColdSepp
2008-11-24, 02:24 AM
I am not saying make someone play a leader. I do just having a DMPC leader, if know one wants to. Really, though Warlords are a lot fun. Clerics are good, but I prefer the warlord flavor.

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 02:30 AM
It seems more likely that you go easy on your players than if any addition or subtraction of a character actually doesn't matter. Try coming up with encounters for a balanced party, and see what combination come out on top and what don't. Trust me: The ones without the leaders won't.

{Scrubbed}

At level 1 they went up against a young white dragon without a leader. Trust me; I'm not going easy on them.

They use the terrain to their advantage. Used properly, it gives them all the bonuses to defense they need. They get other bonuses from loot they find along the way because I prefer to hide treasure behind puzzles and skill challenges instead of lumping it all together at the end.

Gao
2008-11-24, 02:40 AM
{Scrubbed}

At level 1 they went up against a young white dragon without a leader. Trust me; I'm not going easy on them.

They use the terrain to their advantage. Used properly, it gives them all the bonuses to defense they need. They get other bonuses from loot they find along the way because I prefer to hide treasure behind puzzles and skill challenges instead of lumping it all together at the end.
Anyone can win a daily nova, even without leaders; but for a longer day, with at least 2-3 milestones, you need leaders, especially if you expect your better attacks to land.

And... yeah, no. Assuming you took a 3rd level solo derpgon, and used proper tactics, which would involve a first turn Frightful presence followed by beating the defender to death with action points, and grabbing anyone who ran into cover and dragging them away, unless that was their first fight or second fight, the party would have had much difficulty, if not tpk'd, and even then I'm not sure if they'd be up for a second fight.

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 02:48 AM
Well it certainly helped the players that they snuck up on the dragon while it was asleep (skill challenge) and nailed its claws to the ground.
Creative sadism trumps crunch any day of the week.

Gao
2008-11-24, 02:51 AM
{Scrubbed}

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 02:57 AM
{Scrubbed}
An "actual hypothetical" fight? That's an oxymoron.
In an actual fight, anything goes.

See, this is clearly a case of different playing styles. I'm not going to tell you that the way you are doing it is wrong, just that it isn't the way I play. I actually allow my players to use their imagination.

Gao
2008-11-24, 03:04 AM
{Scrubbed}

KKL
2008-11-24, 03:06 AM
This entire exchange between chronoplasm and Gao is like some sort of Masterwork Internet Argument.

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 03:24 AM
This entire exchange between chronoplasm and Gao is like some sort of Masterwork Internet Argument.

You're right.

I'm going to be the bigger man here and just call it quits.

I'll still continue to throw my advice out there. Anyone can use it or not.

NPCMook
2008-11-24, 05:34 AM
Well it certainly helped the players that they snuck up on the dragon while it was asleep (skill challenge) and nailed its claws to the ground.

Why didn't they just go in and attempt to Coup de Grace? Technically speaking they could have, but then again that wouldn't have been fun.

There was a group who actually completed the RPGA's LFR Preview Adventure by sleeping the dragon and Coup De Gracing it, mind you this adventure was actually meant to kill the players at the end of it.

hewhosaysfish
2008-11-24, 09:17 AM
Wait, that ISN'T what solo means? :smallconfused:


I haven't seen anyone else answer this yet, so....
A Solo monster is worth 5 standard ones, so if you were running for a 5 person party then the baseline for an encounter would be 5 standard monsters and you would be right to believe that a Solo is sent against the PCs on it's own. However, if you were running for 6 PCs then the baseline encounter would be 5 standard monsters and if you wanted to use a Solo then it should send one standard monster along with it (or 4 Minions).
If you had a party of 4 PCs then a single Solo would technically "out-number" them, if you see what I mean.

This all assumes, of course, that you are choosing monsters of the same level as the PCs. All these numbers can be fiddled up and down a little.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 09:52 AM
@Fish: Aaahhh... That makes sense. Thanks!

@Chronoplast and Gao: While I appreciate the input, I'd prefer if my thread stayed civil. I respect both opinions presented. However, I think Chronoplast was right in letting his players play without a Healer. It may add a new level of difficulty, but it also allows for some creative thought amongst the players. Also, nailing the dragon's claws to the ground is brilliant. :smallbiggrin: And it would work, if they nailed the claws themselves, since they're just dead chiton and thus don't have any feeling in them. I'm sure that if you were a heavy enough sleeper, somebody could clip your fingernails in the middle of the night, as long as they didn't accidentaly hurt you...


However, it is my belief that if the players in my group do not go with a Healer, then it is their own choice. Whatever consequences arise from it are their own fault, not mine. :smallsmile:

Charity
2008-11-24, 10:07 AM
Fair enough, still I find it's dull for everyone if the challenge is unsuited to the characters, I try to skim down the line of difficult but fair when designing encounters... though my players tend to question the latter.

Are you looking for practical running the game advice or just encounter building stuff?
I would go for getting all the players to use powercards, they are made of win.
Also use initiative order cards they are enormously useful for when folk delay/ready actions.
Have some easily distinguished counters to denote marks, curses, quarries and the ilk, they are great aide memoires.

@V You are trying to give me the heebies by posting directly after me today I swear...

Roland St. Jude
2008-11-24, 10:19 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please do not flame other posters. If I have to come back and clean up this thread again, I'm locking it. It's always sad when an OP can't get the advice he seeks because a few people can't control themselves. Please don't let that happen here.

Eorran
2008-11-24, 10:29 AM
I can't really add much for the encounter design beyond what others have suggested. So if your campaign's going to continue, I strongly recommend getting your hands on the Monster Manual. The actual monsters are designed as playable right from the text box, and I've made custom monsters in minutes by mixing and matching characteristics of different creatures. The DMG has useful info, but you can get by pretty well without it if need be.

The one area I find 4e shines is in the ease of encounter design for DMs.

Asbestos
2008-11-24, 10:38 AM
The one area I find 4e shines is in the ease of encounter design for DMs.

Agreed.


Also, the Draconomicon features Wyrmlings which are basically newborn dragons. Those aren't even elites.
Are so. Adorable elites I might add. They do happen to be very low level, which is great, a wyrmling white is a level 1 elite brute for example.

Now... excuse me while I fudge up a dragon. Psh, just reduce a young white dragon to level 2, change anything that says 'cold' to necrotic and done.

Reluctance
2008-11-24, 10:39 AM
Back on topic, do try to at least browse through the DMG and MM at the bookstore before running. The DMG is crunch-light, but there are a couple of places there you should really read before winging things. (P. 42 and 184-85 are of particular interest.) In the MM, the three page introduction should explain what most of the relevant terms mean, and then a little more poking around should help you understand the philosophy behind the design. A lot has changed since 3.x and keeping old-e ideas around will just confuse and bog down your game. On that note, it wouldn't hurt to re-read the combat chapter in the PHB just to make sure you have those rules down.

I also suggest getting to know the D&D compendium well if you don't have the actual books in front of you. Hell, poke around the whole free trial (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/freetrial) thingamajig they have going. The compendium will only give you free access to PHB and MM material up to level three, but that's still a good place to start. Some of the Dragon/Dungeon articles can also spark ideas and give you some crunch to play with.

Artanis
2008-11-24, 12:24 PM
However, it is my belief that if the players in my group do not go with a Healer, then it is their own choice. Whatever consequences arise from it are their own fault, not mine. :smallsmile:
I thought of a really good solution to nobody wanting to play a Leader: Commander's Strike. If you feel like they really do need more healing than the characters otherwise have available, make a DMPC Warlord who almost exclusively uses Commander's Strike* when attacking. They'll have a Leader's worth of healing and buffing, but even when he attacks, it's still the PCs doing the fighting.


*For those not familiar with it or AFB, it's one of the Warlord's at-wills where, instead of whacking the enemy himself, he has an ally make a melee basic attack against the target, with the Warlord's INT bonus added to the damage roll (on top of the usual 1W+STR).

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 12:29 PM
If things go well enough, I'll start saving money for the MM and DMG. Hopefully the other players will help me pay for it - I'm a broke college kid who can barely afford food. :smallfrown:

Okay, I think I have encounters taken care of. I'm going to keep the stats hidden, and most of the Kobold encounters will be spur-of-the-moment. If they are sucking royally, I'll make it one or two Kobold minions and a Skirmisher instead of 2-3 minions and 1-2 Skirmishers, and stuff like that. But if they do awesomely and impress me with their teamwork, I'll buff it up from 2-3 Minions and 1-2 Skirmishers to 3-4 Minions and 2 Skirmishers, or 2-3 Skirmishers and 1-2 Slingers.

So hopefully by the time they get to dragon, I can add/subtract HP, AC, and perform any other small tweaks needed to make it a fair and balanced fight.


You see, I don't want to kill them all. I don't want them to breeze through this session, either. I want the survivors to feel like they accomplished something.

Its obvious that I'm a CoC Keeper, isn't it? :smallamused:



Anyway, there are still a few things to deal with. Namely:

-Talkative players: Sweet mercy, do my players like to get off topic. I've had to "Rock falls, everybody dies" a CoC campaign before because my players spent most of the introduction talking about their favorite bands.

I think to combat this, I'm going to point out a few things at the start of the game. Namely, there will be a point at the beginning while everyone has to do things like tweak their characters and make sure they understand the rules. During that time, if you already know your stuff, you can chat all you like. I'll allow a little bit longer for casual conversation, and then its down to business.

Once the game starts, I'll allow breaks every now and then for us to chat, get snacks, and lighten the mood. Then its back to the game. If during the game a player should get very ADD or talkative to the point that they're completely lost - ("So did anybody else see Twilight? Duuuuude, Edward was so HAWT. {half the party is female, remember?} I got stuck behind a bunch of talky pre-teens though, so I missed half the dialogue thanks to their constant chattering. I mean really, if you're going to see a movie or something where the point is to pay attention, why would you just sit there and babble half the time? Wait... what? What do you mean its my turn? We're fighting something? Since when?!") - there will be consequences. If they're not paying attention, then neither is their character, and they present Combat Advantage and/or the ability for Opportunity Attacks since their character is pretty much just staring off into space.

If they just blatantly annoy me, I'll probably take them to another room and point the problem out bluntly but politely. If there is still a problem after that, I feel that DM Fiats to punish their character (Armor cracks, thus reducing AC, or weapon breaks mid-battle) will be well within reason.


-That guy. You guys have no idea how afraid I am that he might play. He might not, but there's still a chance he will - and that scares me. Especially if he ends up as the Healer. :smalleek: I'm not kidding when I say this: I wouldn't be suprised if when another player asks for Healing, he asks what he'll be getting in return. I also won't be suprised if he attacks a party member at the end of the session when their at low health. I mean really... He's that kind of player. I had to BS a reason for him not to play CoC with us after his sister told me what he said when she invited him to play: "Excellent! I love games where I can kill everything and dominate the other players!"

Me = :smalleek:

So yeah, if he starts to be a bother during the game, what should I do? :smallconfused:



-Snacks: I'm thinking Pizza, since there's a Little Caesar's right down the road. Beginning, middle, or end of the session? That, or everybody brings a snack. Last time we played, everybody brought a pack of their favorite Ramen flavor, as well as a bag of their favorite chips. It worked out pretty well...

chronoplasm
2008-11-24, 12:31 PM
Are so. Adorable elites I might add. They do happen to be very low level, which is great, a wyrmling white is a level 1 elite brute for example.


Gosh. You're right. :smallredface:

There are other ways of getting by without a leader as well; it certainly helps if one of the characters is a paladin, for one, but Battle Standards in my experience are also immensely helpful.

If you do throw high damage enemies at the players, then provide the players with opportunities to fight dirty. Let the players do some kind of puzzle or skill check to get the drop on the BBEG.

Personally, I like to take the Doom approach to game balance; if you are going to make the players fight powerful enemies, then let them find powerful weapons, or let them pull a switch to activate a crusher.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 12:35 PM
I thought of a really good solution to nobody wanting to play a Leader: Commander's Strike. If you feel like they really do need more healing than the characters otherwise have available, make a DMPC Warlord who almost exclusively uses Commander's Strike* when attacking. They'll have a Leader's worth of healing and buffing, but even when he attacks, it's still the PCs doing the fighting.


*For those not familiar with it or AFB, it's one of the Warlord's at-wills where, instead of whacking the enemy himself, he has an ally make a melee basic attack against the target, with the Warlord's INT bonus added to the damage roll (on top of the usual 1W+STR).

I'm going to have a few pre-made character sheets on stand-by. One of them will undoubtably be a Dragonborn Warlord. If nobody picks him, I might DMPC him. I kinda want to see how well they get along with my help, though. A DMPC will give them a slight advantage - and thats an advantage I'd rather them not have.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-24, 12:49 PM
If you add a monster to make up for the DMPC, how much of an advantage is it, really?

Yakk
2008-11-24, 01:02 PM
XP per normal monster is:
1: 100
2: 125
3: 150
4: 175
5-8: 200+50/L
9-12: 400+100/L
13-16: 800+200/L
17-20: 1600+400/L
21-24: 3200+800/L
25-28: 6400+1600/L
29-32: 12800+3200/L

Every +4 levels doubles the XP awarded per monster.

The level of a monster is based off of the approximate level of character party it is designed to interact with. Monsters that you always-hit or always-miss are ... less fun.


Opponents (monsters) in 4e are catagorized in a way to make encounter buliding easier.
Minions: Designed to allow masses of opponents. Each dies when they are hit. 1/4th XP

Normal monsters: 1 of them is supposed to be a challenge for a single PC to defeat. x1 XP

Elites: These are 'bit tough' versions of Normal Monsters. An Orc Commander would be an elite, as an example. x2 XP

Solos: These are intended to be a challenge for an entire party of 5 characters at once. x5 XP

Typically when building an NPC with a class, you start with a basic monster then apply the class template to generate an Elite, then tweak it a bit for balance reasons. PC mechanics are not indended to be used for NPCs, because PCs are extra-complex, have a completely different resoruce budget (per-day, instead of 'defeated after an encounter'), etc.


In 4e, your healing surges are a measure of how beat up you are, more than your HP. A character low on HP but high in healing surges is harried, scratch, and in a bad situation, but can recover. A character out of healing surges but high in HP ... is in a good situation right now, but is on her last legs.

So a healing potion simply converts a healing surge into HP -- it uses the character's own lifeforce to heal them. There are few mechanics in 4e that grant HP without burning the target's (or your own) healing surges.


Um... I would assume it means it has to recharge... right? So yeah, it can only be used once every 5 rounds. Seems simple enough.
Recharge 5 means you roll a d6 each round, after you use it. On a 5 or 6, it recharges.


You're over-estimating my party. We almost had a TPK to a handful of Kobold minions, skirmishers, and 2 skirmishers. Creatures with 1 HP did about 20 times their health in damage over the course of the battle. >_>
Minions are among the most dangerous, damaging opponents, per unit of difficulty in killing them. In short, minions should be every parties first target: people used to 3.5e will see grunts and say "the big threat is the boss".


Wait a second. Is that one roll/turn, or one roll/power/turn?
Per power. Normal monsters should have at most one recharge power, and at that rarely. Elites should have 1, maybe 2. Solos can have bunches, because they are intended to be an encoutner on their own.

That is part of the mechanics of 4e -- the difficulty in running a creature is factored into what category it should be designed for.

As a piece of advice -- do pacing based roleplaying in fights. Monsters shouldn't always behave tactically optimally.

If the party is having problems, have the monsters act more impulsively. It isn't that hard to justify. If the party is blowing through them, have them act smarter.

The basic unit of tactical swing is "concentrate firepower" or "spread firepower". Firepower spread out, if it is the same amount of total damage, tends to be less effective, because you aren't taking party members out (or threatening to, causing people to frantically waste actions on defense).

Ignore the defender, but only sometimes, to let the 'pain' part of their powers kick in.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 03:32 PM
The first few Kobold encounters will have the Kobolds pretty much fighting for their lives without using serious tactics. By the end of the session, they'll have run into a few squads of well trained Kobolds that at least know how to flank and other fun tactics.

The dragon itself will attack randomly and violently. It doesn't know where is, or how it got there. All it knows is that there are people attacking it, and they need to die.




So, any advice on my other problems? :smallconfused:

chiasaur11
2008-11-24, 04:26 PM
The first few Kobold encounters will have the Kobolds pretty much fighting for their lives without using serious tactics. By the end of the session, they'll have run into a few squads of well trained Kobolds that at least know how to flank and other fun tactics.

The dragon itself will attack randomly and violently. It doesn't know where is, or how it got there. All it knows is that there are people attacking it, and they need to die.




So, any advice on my other problems? :smallconfused:


Yes. For the problem player: Kill him with Kobolds.

Look apologetic. Be sorry you can't fudge the rolls for him, but...

It'll also give you a chance to try that nifty Kobold victory chart.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 04:47 PM
Yes, about that...

Apparently, my PDF viewer - Adobe something-or-another - doesn't work anymore. I have to buy a subscription, apparently. I don't have any money! I can barely afford to eat, dangit! >.<

So yeah, I can't check out the chart... Or any of the other things ya'll linked. :smallfrown:

Maybe I can look it up at a friend's house... >.>

Artanis
2008-11-24, 04:56 PM
You should be able to d/l Adobe Reader from adobe.com. It can't do anything to .pdf files, but it can read them and AFAIK is free.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 05:07 PM
I have Adobe Reader 8. But for some reason, the links automatically open in Adobe Acrobat, which will not run until I purchase the 50 dollar subscription. :smallmad:


So how do I open the links in Reader instead of Acrobat? *knows about as much about computers as DnD*

Artanis
2008-11-24, 05:09 PM
Try right-clicking on one of the pdf icons, then choose Open With. Pick Adobe Reader from the list, check the box that says "always use this program with this kind of file" (or words to that effect), and hit OK.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 05:13 PM
Ah, I found a way. :smallsmile:

Now the Acrobat stays open longer for some reason, giving me time to save the file I'm viewing. Then I just look at it with Reader.

Anyway, I'm looking over the Dragonlich and Kobold Victory Chart as we speak...


Edit:

KVC = hilarious! I will definitely use it! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I find it kinda funny that I basically made up a really weak version of the Dragonlich. XD

NPCMook
2008-11-24, 07:54 PM
Ah, I found a way. :smallsmile:

Now the Acrobat stays open longer for some reason, giving me time to save the file I'm viewing. Then I just look at it with Reader.

Anyway, I'm looking over the Dragonlich and Kobold Victory Chart as we speak...


Edit:

KVC = hilarious! I will definitely use it! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I find it kinda funny that I basically made up a really weak version of the Dragonlich. XD

We modified it for one of the players in our group, we were fighting Kobolds and he burned an action point along with one of his Dailies to defeat a Kobold, he crit the it and it only had 1 hit point left... So when he does kill something we roll on the Kobold Victory chart, we did this and he gave us a speech which buffed everyone. We are just waiting for him to jump into a back-pack or steal an item and run off with it. He plays a Human by the way.

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 09:24 PM
There has been a change of plans.

The game will probably be held tommorrow, instead of Friday.


If you guys had not helped me to prepare for this, I would have been caught horribly off guard, and the session would have sucked. Badly. So thanks, guys. Thanks for helping me out. You really made a difference.

If things go as well as I hope, we'll have:


Me - DM
GF - Fighter
GF's best friend - ?
Roommate - Paladin
Friend - Ranger

And of course, the best friend's bro will be there, but we dunno if he'll play or not...

So thats 4 people (give or take that guy and/or a DMPC) versus a cavern full of Kobolds and a homebrewed skeletal dragon abomination thingy. Should be fun! :smallbiggrin:


Seriously guys... thanks. :smallsmile:

RPGuru1331
2008-11-24, 09:38 PM
....Make sure not to shower too much love on the GF. I'm not the sort to immediately be alarmed, but do be careful..

ColdSepp
2008-11-24, 09:45 PM
Be sure to let us know how it goes!

Also, I use Foxit Reader for PDFs. It looks like you fixed the problem, but here is the link anyways.

Foxit Reader (http://foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php)

Lycan 01
2008-11-24, 09:51 PM
My GF is very shy. She never says much, in game or out of game, so I don't have many opportunities to spoil her. Its not that she doesn't want to play - heck, it was pretty much HER IDEA to get DnD. She's just not a people person, and it shows in her play-style.

But then she has her moments, like during the Kobold TPK I keep mentioning. Her character was hiding behind from some Kobold slingers a table, when suddenly she said: "Screw it. I fling the table at the nearest SOB!" A few dice rolls later, and her character actually hurls a table 20 feet across the room and smears a Kobold with it. :smalleek:

And then a few rounds later she drop kicked a Kobold into a hole, a la 300. Pit of Death references and everything... Although, I'll admit, I did fudge the rolls for her then, though that was mostly to save time since the encounter had lasted over an hour... :smallannoyed:

But yeah, I don't play favorites. :smallsmile:



And don't worry guys, I'll be sure to post up all the lovely details of our session(s) when I get back. :smallbiggrin:

Lycan 01
2008-12-01, 02:37 PM
The session was... a moderate success. Though I do not know if/when we will play again...

So... time for a summary.

Players: Me (DM), GF (Eladrin rogue), roommate (human Paladin of the Flying Spaghetti Monster), roommate's GF/my GF's best friend (Dragonborn Warlord), and my friend (Half-elf ranger).

Plot: Players hired to kill cave full of Kobolds. Easy, right?

Result: Paladin got to lvl 2, Rogue stole most of the treasure, other 2 players came out worse for wear but still alive.

Highlights:

Game had a late start because my friend wanted pizza, and then we took 20 minutes to actually started because everytime they said they were ready and I started to explain the setting, my friend, roommate, and/or roommate's GF would strike up a conversation about something random, such as stealing Wolf Blitzer's hair-piece. Needless to say, my patience took a beating, but I kept calm. Eventually, the game started.

Paladin chewed through the first encounter - 2 Kobold minions who were watching the entrance. He Bull Rushed one against a wall and crushed him, then decapitated the other one.

Second room was a hallway with some junk in it. Nobody did an Perception check for anything other than what items of value were in there... The Ranger ran all the way to the end of the hall and tried to open the door. He was promptly stabbed in the back by a Kobold minion that was hiding behind the overturned table in front of the door...

Over the next few rounds, the 3 problem players repeatedly started to ignore me and talk about random stuff again. My GF was paying attention though, although all she managed to do was distract the Kobold before it could do any more damage to the Ranger.

As it became obvious that I was finally losing my patience, my friend decided to break the camel's back with a massive straw. He blatantly asked in a condescending manner: "Dude, why are you even the DM?"

...

The room went silent. My roommie and his GF grabbed the PHB, opened it up, and hid behind it. My GF scooted her chair closer to mine and hugged me, obviously aware of what was about to happen. He promptly began to try and explain his comment and say that it was supposed to be a joke, and that he meant "Why are you the DM when its obvious that it annoys you when we talk, and its obvious that we like to talk?" instead of "You suck." But I was pretty pissed off at this point, because I took it as meaning "You suck."

I didn't get up and scream. I didn't argue with him. I didn't list all the reasons why I'm the freaking DM... (I was elected to be the DM. I'm the only one who bothered to learn the rules!) I just pointed at him and barked over his voice "Do a Fortitude Save!" He failed - I said that his kidneys had been hit by the Kobold's dagger (It HAD stabbed him in the lower back...) and that he was promptly bleeding out. A few turns and several failed Fort Saves later, and he was down to just a few HP. My GF finally did a Heal check on him, though... :smallannoyed:


This went on for most of the session. Encounter would start, 2 players would take their turn, then the 3rd person would start talking, 10 minute discussion about something random ensues, then they get mad at me because they don't know what is going on when its their turn.

I finally had enough. I explained that it was very rude of them to sit there and babble, ignoring me while I was explaining stuff to them, and basically burning time that I DID NOT HAVE TO WASTE. We were supposed to start at 3, and I wanted to be home at 6. (The session ended at 8-ish... :smallmad:) I spent so much work on the session, and they'd already made it a burning train wreck that was so horrible you couldn't look away from it. I was offended. I'd thought they wanted to play a game, not chat. We could have gone in the other room and watched tv if they wanted to do that.

Finally, they realized why I was so annoyed. They straightened up their act, and we were able to breeze through the last encounter in a quarter of the time. Then they got to 3 doors. Two small ones, and a big pair of double doors which obviously led to the BBEG. Roommie, his GF, and my GF wanted to go to the BBEG. My friend wanted to check the smaller doors.

He opened the door to the Kobold barracks. >.<

A few rounds later, he's at -1 HP, 2 Kobold skirmishers are dancing on his corpse, my roommie and his GF have left him to die and gone through the double-doors, and my GF is hiding in a storage room where the Kobold's kept all their weapons and loot. (She left that room with several shortswords, and few javelins, 100 GP, 3 diamonds, and 2 emeralds... :smallcool:)

The Kobolds got bored and left, so everyone came back and woke up the unconscious ranger. They healed him up, and then they went on to the BBEG.

One dark staircase later, they happen across a Kobold Wyrmpriest standing over the fossilized remains of a young dragon. Yep... They knew then and there that they were FUBAR.

They all spent their Dailies on the Wyrmpriest. He died in 1 round. They thought they stopped the resurrection spell he was casting. He'd already finished that spell earlier though - he was just buffing the dragon's health.

The stone around the bones began to crack, and they had 2 rounds to formulate a battle plan.

Cue another 10 minute chit-chat session. They only person who bothered to plan anything was my GF... and she cheated by sneaking a peak at my laptop which had the dragon's stats on it while I was busy staring at the other players wondering what I was doing wrong.

The battle starts... Rogue, Paladin, Fighter in a row in front of the dragon, Ranger behind them to bug the dragon with arrow fire. At least, that was the plan my GF had hoped they would follow.

Nope.

The Dragon takes a swing at the Fighter, who begs for a Reflex Save. I allow it, since I'd explained earlier off the top of my head that Reflex Saves were best reserved for avoiding a dragon's attacks or something. He succeeds...

The Fighter gets a solid hit in, Warlord half-heartedly does a normal attack, and then its the Ranger's turn.

"I want to sprint around the zombie dragon, run up his tail, climb into his rib cage, and hit him from inside!"

:smallconfused:

I told him Atheltics and Acrobatics checks of 20 and 25 DC, respectively. I didn't mention he'd provoke a seriously bad AoO if he failed, and he'd be climbing into what was essentially a bowl of necrotic acid if he succeeded. Oh well, he went for it anyway.

He failed the Atheltics check. :smallamused: The dragon went to hit him, and he asked for a Reflex save. Annoyed, I told him that if he succeeded, he'd duck, but if he failed, he'd basically be jumping into the attack. He went for it anyway...

And failed. :smallbiggrin:

One Dragon Backhand of Doom later, and he's sprawled out on the ground with 2 HP.

Unfortunately, a few bad rolls for me and several great rolls for them later, and the dragon is dust on the floor. :smallannoyed: It took them 4 rounds to kill 2 days of work. Ah, such is the luck of a DM...

Then they all got up and left the room, assuming the game was over. I still had an encounter left for them, you know... :smallmad:



*sigh*

So yeah. Now that I think about it, that SUCKED. I might as well stick to Cthulhu...

Was I right to get annoyed? Was I wrong to get so frustrated? Could I have done anything better? Did I do anything right? This has pretty much taken a rather nice hunk out of my confidence as a DM... :smallfrown:

My roommate says I was right to get upset, though. He says it was pretty rude of them, and that when my friend asked about my role as the DM he took it as an insult, too. And he says the game was still fun... Plus he leveled up, at least. So at least somebody thinks I did okay... Well, other than my GF, but that kinda goes without saying.

valadil
2008-12-01, 02:55 PM
If you're bored of your standard assassination, why not mix it up a bit? Instead of a simple 'kill the guy in the inn' why not also have the PCs frame someone? Then they have to go about gathering evidence to plant and distracting their frame so that he can have no alibi.

Dacia Brabant
2008-12-01, 03:20 PM
<snip>

Ouch. Yeah, I don't blame you one bit for getting upset, the way they treated you was rather rude. However, maybe you shouldn't be their GM, at least not if you're playing a system that requires a lot of attention to detail like D&D does. I'd just run a talkie game, I guess CoC would qualify as that, but just ask them to try to do their chattering in-character.

I liked the zombie dragon HP ritual by the way, even if the monster did prove a little weak that's still a neat way to introduce it.

Lycan 01
2008-12-01, 04:08 PM
The dragon wasn't weak, par se. The dice rolls were just not in my favor. If one hit had connected, the PCs would have been singing a different tune.


I've got the same problem sometimes with my CoC group... >_< Sadly, we had just started a campaign when my grandmother decided to move in with my family. I hosted the game at my house on Saturdays when I was home from college, but my mom says if I have more than one friend over at a time it freaks out my grandmother. And due to spazzy parents, most of my friends can't play anywhere else but my house... So my CoC group has pretty much disintegrated. T__T

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-01, 05:04 PM
Game had a late start because my friend wanted pizza, and then we took 20 minutes to actually started because everytime they said they were ready and I started to explain the setting, my friend, roommate, and/or roommate's GF would strike up a conversation about something random, such as stealing Wolf Blitzer's hair-piece. Needless to say, my patience took a beating, but I kept calm. Eventually, the game started.
...

Over the next few rounds, the 3 problem players repeatedly started to ignore me and talk about random stuff again.
...

As it became obvious that I was finally losing my patience, my friend decided to break the camel's back with a massive straw. He blatantly asked in a condescending manner: "Dude, why are you even the DM?"

...

The room went silent. My roommie and his GF grabbed the PHB, opened it up, and hid behind it. My GF scooted her chair closer to mine and hugged me, obviously aware of what was about to happen. He promptly began to try and explain his comment and say that it was supposed to be a joke, and that he meant "Why are you the DM when its obvious that it annoys you when we talk, and its obvious that we like to talk?" instead of "You suck." But I was pretty pissed off at this point, because I took it as meaning "You suck."

I didn't get up and scream. I didn't argue with him. I didn't list all the reasons why I'm the freaking DM... (I was elected to be the DM. I'm the only one who bothered to learn the rules!) I just pointed at him and barked over his voice "Do a Fortitude Save!" He failed - I said that his kidneys had been hit by the Kobold's dagger (It HAD stabbed him in the lower back...) and that he was promptly bleeding out. A few turns and several failed Fort Saves later, and he was down to just a few HP. My GF finally did a Heal check on him, though... :smallannoyed:

This went on for most of the session. Encounter would start, 2 players would take their turn, then the 3rd person would start talking, 10 minute discussion about something random ensues, then they get mad at me because they don't know what is going on when its their turn.

I finally had enough. I explained that it was very rude of them to sit there and babble, ignoring me while I was explaining stuff to them, and basically burning time that I DID NOT HAVE TO WASTE. We were supposed to start at 3, and I wanted to be home at 6. (The session ended at 8-ish... :smallmad:) I spent so much work on the session, and they'd already made it a burning train wreck that was so horrible you couldn't look away from it. I was offended. I'd thought they wanted to play a game, not chat. We could have gone in the other room and watched tv if they wanted to do that.

Finally, they realized why I was so annoyed. They straightened up their act, and we were able to breeze through the last encounter in a quarter of the time.
...

Cue another 10 minute chit-chat session. They only person who bothered to plan anything was my GF... and she cheated by sneaking a peak at my laptop which had the dragon's stats on it while I was busy staring at the other players wondering what I was doing wrong.
...

Then they all got up and left the room, assuming the game was over. I still had an encounter left for them, you know... :smallmad:

*sigh*

Jesus.

Sorry for the ridiculous big quote, but, um... yes, you may just possibly have a couple of problem players there. My recommendation: never play an RPG with any of them (except possibly your girlfriend) ever again unless they all (all!) beg you to.

greenknight
2008-12-01, 08:50 PM
The session was... a moderate success. Though I do not know if/when we will play again...

You know, it's really not too bad for a first effort. You only have a couple of real problems there, and provided you can solve them, you should do fine. Here's what I suggest:

1) Talk with the other players and schedule rest breaks.

I find that players do like to chat before the game starts, and often want snacks or a meal before they begin. And from time to time during the game (especially if it's a long session), they will want more time to walk about and socialise. The amount of time needed is different for different groups, which is why you need to discuss it with your players, and it's also important that they know (approximately) what time a break will occur.

Be wary of players who want to come late (knowing that the game proper won't start until the socialising/snack time is over). That can cause delays to the game starting, as that player might socialise/want snacks anyway when he or she arrives. Some players really are there just to play the game, so if they arrive just before the game is scheduled to actually start it isn't always a disaster, but this can still cause problems if the other players want to spend time catching up with the latecomer(s).

Also, allow for some flexibility in your scheduling. I find I work around encounters. If an encounter has just finished and there's a rest due soon, I'll move it forward. I'll also move the rest break forward if it's due soon and I know a major encounter is coming up. If the rest period is scheduled but the characters are in the middle of an encounter, I'll finish the encounter and then take a break. Use a similar approach when determining when to end the game session, and try not to have major encounters start shortly before the session is scheduled to end. Then again, if everyone is having fun and no one needs to get home on time, there's no harm in asking the players if they want to play beyond the scheduled ending time, and doing so if they all agree.

Even with scheduled rests, there will be times when non-game related conversation breaks out during game time. Just remind everyone involved that this sort of talk should be reserved for the scheduled breaks. If one or more players persist in talking about non-game stuff outside the break periods, then it's time to seriously consider dropping them from the game.

2) Try to get a good feel for the game mechanics, and then use that to help the other players. Trying to get a handle on all the rules can be a bit overwhelming, so if a player starts to flounder, give him or her some advice. Some general tips for 4e you might want to try:

* Use a class power to attack whenever you can, rather than a standard attack

* In general, it's better tactics to wipe out minions as quickly as possible. If there's a bloodied foe on the battlefield, you might want to finish that foe off first. And if your character is a Striker and you can still do extra damage (from Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack, Warlock's Curse etc), it might be better if you use that against a non-minion. Oh yeah, as a DM you need to be aware that extra damage is only allowed once per round for a Striker.

* Positioning is very important. If your character specialises in melee combat, try to flank your foes, while avoiding being flanked yourself. Just nominating 2 melee characters to form the front line can help with flanking issues, while giving some protection to your ranged attackers.

* Know what the classes are good at, and try to have a balanced party. In a 5 person party, it's good to have 2-3 melee specialists, and 2-3 ranged specialists. Rangers and Rogues are particularly good classes to have because they can work in both the melee and ranged roles. You need 1-2 Leader types. Paladins with 14+ Wisdom are almost as good, so having a Leader + Paladin is an excellent combo. The party should also have a scout (someone with a good Stealth check in particular) and sage (someone who can cover the Wisdom skills - particularly Perception). Archer Rangers tend to do well in both of those roles, Rogues make good scouts, and Wisdom based Clerics make great sages, provided they spend the feats to get the skill training.

* Does the party have several characters with area attacks or multiple attacks per round (most will)? If so, you might want to try spicing up a few encounters with minions. Pay close attention to the result. If the party just chews through the minions like a hot knife through butter, you might want to drop minions from future encounters entirely since they aren't going to be a challenge. If the minions present a few moments of danger and allow other non-minions in the encounter to survive a little longer, then continue to use them whenever you think it's appropriate. If they give the party a really hard time, then suggest how the players might change their tactics, reduce the number of minions you're using, or drop the idea of using minions entirely.

Siegel
2008-12-08, 01:05 PM
*Threat necromancer is beeing necromantic*

Hello playgounders

I'm (hopefully) DMing in a 4e game in two weeks. This will be my and the players first time with 4e (or D&D in generall).

My idea is to have them comming to a town with a caravan. I will enclude the first Goblin encounter from KoSF there. They will them come to town, where the church asks the Paladin to help them with a graverobber problem.

There will be an encounter on a graveyard then, a few human thugs and a necromancer novice. While they fight the bodyguards the NM will try to get away but will summon Skeleton Minions when he is on a square with a grave. Through this i want to create suspens and a flowing battlefield...

Later on they will have to fight through the necromancers dungeon. I want to have a Undead and an normal humans encounter there and in the end i want to enclude the idea of the Undead Dragon ritual.

The party will be a
Fire Genasi Battlewizard
Warforged Tank/healadin
Elf (?) 2W-Fighter
Dwarfen Tank/Healwarlord

My questions:

1. Where is a good situation to include a skill challenge ? I want to have a wilderness SC but i would like a information gattering or social one too.
2. What monster stats would you reccomend ?
3. I think the party will be quite good in defence but lacking in offense power, is this right ?
4. How many encounters could such a group handle at one day without resting ?
5. Generall advice ?

FoE
2008-12-08, 01:19 PM
Include the skill challenge right after the priest asks the PCs to help with the graverobbing. Have the skill challenge be about finding info about what they're up against and actually tracking down the graverobbers.

Alternatively, you could run the standard 'interrogate the NPC' skill challenge. Have one of the NPCs captured instead of killed and then have the PCs question him. Intimidate, Religion and Dungeoneering are useful for getting the info out of him.

I don't follow what you mean by 'what monster stats would you recommend.'

Artanis
2008-12-08, 01:24 PM
*Threat necromancer is beeing necromantic*
It's only seven days. I don't know if a week counts as necromancy. At any rate...

Edit:
Note to self: Check calendar before saying something regarding the date :smallredface:



The party will be a
Fire Genasi Battlewizard
Warforged Tank/healadin
Elf (?) 2W-Fighter
Dwarfen Tank/Healwarlord
I assume you mean the Genasi is a Swordmage. The "2W-Fighter", is it an actual Fighter, or do you mean a two-weapon Ranger?




3. I think the party will be quite good in defence but lacking in offense power, is this right ?
The Swordmage and Paladin are both Defenders, so you've got more defense than you can shake a stick at.

If the Elf is actually a Ranger, you've got the recommended amount of damage output. If the Elf really is a Fighter, you are indeed short on damage output and have serious, serious overkill on defense.

One Leader (the Warlord) in a 4-person party is the recommended amount of healing and buffing.

You don't have a pure Controller, but a Swordmage has quite a few Controller-like abilities, and Rangers have a surprising number as well. You should be fine on crowd control, especially if the Elf is indeed a Ranger.

Siegel
2008-12-08, 01:26 PM
No the Genasi is a Wizard, i wrote Battlewizard because he is interested in striking more than in controling. The 2 Weapon character is a ranger.

@Monster stats i meant what monster stat blocks, the entrys in the MM

Artanis
2008-12-08, 01:34 PM
I really, really hope that by "striking" you mean "dealing damage" :smallwink:


At any rate, you should be fine then. One character of each role (Defender, Controller, Striker, Leader) is pretty much the standard-issue party makeup.

FoE
2008-12-08, 01:45 PM
Oh! Well, just pick what you want. Just remember that a good fight includes a mix of monster roles (Brutes, Artillery, Leaders, and so on) and that monsters can be up to three levels below your guys or four to five levels above them. But it'll be a much easier or much harder fight depending on which way you go.