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Gao
2008-11-24, 11:19 AM
I'm looking to run an ADnD module known as the Tomb of Horrors. We all know this is quite possibly the worst place in the world. Now, I've never run the ADnD version, and I haven't really had a lot of experience with ADnD either. I don't supposed GITP has any advice for a DM willing to run his players through the worst dungeon ever written or devised by man?

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-24, 11:26 AM
Run through a couple adventures first so they get attached to their characters.

If you've never run AD&D before, you may want to take a look at the free 3.5 conversion available for free on Wizards' website. It's as true to the original as it can get while still being 3.5, I think. If you're keen on playing the original though (and I don't blame you), use my original suggestion. Take a little bit of time to familiarize yourself with AD&D and let the players develop their characters a bit.

That way it will hurt all the more when you take them away.

Also, it may be a good idea to have something else available for the dead characters to do while the rest of the party dies and you get ready for their next group to try it.

Don't bother worrying about player knowledge or metagaming. When their fifth group cleverly avoids the traps that killed the fourth group, let them have their victory.

It goes without saying that they should have several characters each, or that you should have alternate plans for the evening when they're all dead after the first fifteen minutes.

obnoxious
sig

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-24, 11:40 AM
I do recommend getting the 3.5 edition version of the ToH; the rules are cleaned up and gives your players a fighting chance to beat it.

Irreverent Fool's recommendation of taking the players thru a couple of modules/adventures first is a fantastic idea. Sending them into the ToH without knowing what they can do will slow down the gameplay; a lot.

Darrin
2008-11-24, 01:30 PM
I'm looking to run an ADnD module known as the Tomb of Horrors. We all know this is quite possibly the worst place in the world. Now, I've never run the ADnD version, and I haven't really had a lot of experience with ADnD either. I don't supposed GITP has any advice for a DM willing to run his players through the worst dungeon ever written or devised by man?

There are many, many, many older ToH threads in this forum full of lots of advice.

There is also a revised version of ToH updated for 3.5 on the WotC website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a

I'm not sure if you're running this as a one-off lark with multiple disposable characters (very amusing, ran it for Halloween once) or seriously trying to integrate it into an existing campaign (in which case gawd help you).

Contrary to popular belief, the worst part of ToH is not the instakill deathtraps or incomprehensible puzzles. The toughest part is Gygax's stomach-churning poetry. I would like to say it's completely unhelpful, but beyond all reasonable expecations of logic and reason, my group actually used one of the clues in the poem to progress further into the tomb.

General Advice and some things to watch out for:


The original ToH is full of "gygaxisms", if that's a word, which is to say several of the traps involve creating sometimes bizarre off-the-cuff rules for situations that are supposed to surprise and challenge the players with things they could never expect. For example, one of the false entrances has the DM doing a "silent countdown" and then indiscriminantly killing anybody who didn't move out of the way in time, with very little understanding of how this should really be adjudicated (and this is back before minis/gridmaps were considered standard). From the intro, Gygax gives you the feeling that he wants the DM to be fair but firm, but I'm still not entirely sure how this countdown is supposed to work... if a player says "I run out" when I count three, how the heck am I supposed to calculate that character's 12" movement in terms of feet or seconds or what? More likely, the players have no idea the DM is counting anything, and it never occurs to them that they have to move a certain distance to escape instant death... ugh, welcome to Tomb of Horrors.

Something else to keep in mind is that a lot of the traps/puzzles are impenetrable to logic or reason, or are intentionally set up to kill clever/smart players. This is intentional... Acererak really is trying to kill the PCs, and has deliberately set traps where using rational puzzle-solving skills can lead to death. There's a quote floating around about ToH about "the air can't be trapped, can it?/Yes, roll save vs. poison. You turn into a fish. And explode." ToH is not really a module the players can outthink... if they beat it, it's going to be through a lot of trial and error and a huge chunk of pure luck.

Resting/Regeneration - There aren't a lot of monsters... in fact, the PCs have to work pretty darned hard to actually find something to kill. Very few monsters also means pretty much no wandering monsters, so it's entirely possible for the PCs to tackle one room/trap, heal for a couple days, and then tackle the next obstacle. Regeneration is even more annoying, since the damage done by most of the physical traps tends to be pretty low... not much poison (which was usually the "save or die" variety in 1st Ed AD&D) and nothing like debuffs/ability damage/condition stuff. Go ahead and let the players rest up as much as they want, they're going to need all the help they can get.

Flying characters - they can easily bypass 90% of the traps.

Earthglide - Never, ever let one of the players bring in an Earth Elemental as a PC. (Yes, I let them bring in *anything* from any d20 book. But then the Earth Elemental got crushed by the stone juggernaut, which is kind of tragic really because he could probably have earthglided through it.)

There are certain bottlenecks in the dungeon where the players will not be able to advance without a lot of luck. The Magical Secret Door at #17, for example, can be easy to miss if no one bothers to check for secret doors there... an elf may notice it on a lucky roll, but there's no way to get any further into the dungeon unless they find it and have a dispel magic or remove curse to get through it. If you want the players to explore the rest of the dungeon, you may have to fudge something to get them to notice #17. Otherwise, sell them on the "False Treasure Room" as the real thing and let them leave thinking they beat the "demilich". When word gets around and other people start asking them how they dealt with the scepter/crown or the crystal skull, they may have to come back.

Another trouble spot is the Wondrous Foyer #28/Mithril Valves #29, mostly because they are very poorly described... I'm still not entirely sure what Gygax means by "valves" which are supposed to be doors, and the hemispherical keyhole is hardly described at all. If the room fills with blood... ugh, just kill everybody and let them start over. The 3.5 revision has a much better description of the valves (whatever they are), the doors, and the keyhole. But the 3.5 version of the flood of blood isn't nearly as arbitrary or lethal.

If the players get really stuck towards the end, you can throw them a few hints/clues by using the Siren in #22 or Efreet in #30 as friendly NPCs.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-24, 05:27 PM
I'm looking to run an ADnD module known as the Tomb of Horrors. We all know this is quite possibly the worst place in the world. Now, I've never run the ADnD version, and I haven't really had a lot of experience with ADnD either. I don't supposed GITP has any advice for a DM willing to run his players through the worst dungeon ever written or devised by man?

My advice is "don't" :smalltongue:

Barring that, it would at least help if the players were moderately experienced with the system in question. Also, let everyone bring a spare character.

KKL
2008-11-24, 11:20 PM
I'm looking to run an ADnD module known as the Tomb of Horrors. We all know this is quite possibly the worst place in the world. Now, I've never run the ADnD version, and I haven't really had a lot of experience with ADnD either. I don't supposed GITP has any advice for a DM willing to run his players through the worst dungeon ever written or devised by man?

I will strangle you with your entrails for running ToH :(.

Pitting your own players against that monstrosity isn't cool.

Enlong
2008-11-24, 11:54 PM
Worst place in the world?
Worse than Alabama? (http://nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040330)

Gao
2008-11-25, 03:24 AM
Worst place in the world?
Worse than Alabama? (http://nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040330)

Yes, I had that comic in mind. It is worse than Alabama.

Drammel
2008-11-25, 03:42 AM
Yes, I had that comic in mind. It is worse than Alabama.

Ditto. Some things just scar the mind permanently.:smalleek:

Gao
2008-11-25, 03:46 AM
Ditto. Some things just scar the mind permanently.:smalleek:

Tomb of Horrors, or Alabama? Probably both, huh?

BobVosh
2008-11-25, 05:26 AM
Tomb of Horrors, or Alabama? Probably both, huh?

ToH in Alabama? I knew it!

MMm...to prevent the run outside and sleep approach you can have the ToH be surrounded by a redneck tree (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05042002.shtml) grove.

Gao
2008-11-25, 12:00 PM
ToH in Alabama? I knew it!

MMm...to prevent the run outside and sleep approach you can have the ToH be surrounded by a redneck tree (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05042002.shtml) grove.

Tempting, but it specifically says that it's alright to nap inside, saying there are no wandering monsters.

Blackfang108
2008-11-25, 12:55 PM
I will strangle you with your entrails for running ToH :(.

Pitting your own players against that monstrosity isn't cool.

I must be insane, then.

Because I actually WANT to run a character through Tomb of Horrors.

graymachine
2008-11-25, 02:18 PM
3.5 evens the playing field too much for ToH. I ran a group several months back through RttToH and, feeling benevolent, opened all the books and allowed most power builds. They tore through the whole thing like tissue paper. The original 2nd edition AD&D is much closer to the original sense of impossibility.