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arguskos
2008-11-24, 05:59 PM
So, how do my fellow DM's deal with the Wish spell in D&D? Do you follow the letter of the spell, and not permit greater effects? Do you try to pervert the wish if it's a greater effect? What's the deal?

Myself, I tend to always work to give an unexpected result, that still fulfills the intent of the wish.

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 06:05 PM
i figure- wishing for magic items that require Wishes to create comes under Wishing for More Wishes. Even if item is within price range (no magic item price range is given in 3.5). No wishing for Tomes of Understanding +5.

Jasdoif
2008-11-24, 06:21 PM
i figure- wishing for magic items that require Wishes to create comes under Wishing for More Wishes. Even if item is within price range (no magic item price range is given in 3.5). No wishing for Tomes of Understanding +5.While there's no actual price range, you have to pay twice the usual XP cost when using wish to create/improve a magic item, on top of the usual XP cost for wish. That's a total of 56,000XP to create a Tome of Understanding +5. Quite a limiting factor.

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 06:23 PM
Some people go with Wishing for one to teleport from somewhere in the world, to you.

Not something I approve of.

Captain Six
2008-11-24, 06:25 PM
I don't 'mess' with wishes to make them turn out worse, there is no cosmic will to mess around with mortals, I make them follow the path of least resistance. For example if you wish for "a million gold coins" nothing will happen because, yes, there is a million gold. If you wish for "a million gold coins to appear in my hand" you're going to need a heal spell as your arm is torn to shreds from the gold bursting out from within your hand, but hey, there's a million gold coins there. That million gold coins weren't created for you though, it's easier to teleport it from the nearest treasury so you need to hide it and spend it wisely. Also there will be economic repercussions and paranoia toward anyone with significant increase in wealth leading to a witch hunt of sorts which will come back to haunt PCs when high-wealth shops, like magic stores, have to close due to their customers not wanting to look guilty.

It would probably be less of a headache to wish for a smaller amount of coins that might go unnoticed from a large treasury but then it isn't worth much. Even if you ask for the gold to be created for you the raw materials were probably stolen from somewhere. Maybe a Dwarven city was built on a mine which suddenly is depleted of years worth of gold. I could go on.

The long and short of it is that the bigger the wish the more dangerous it can get. Common was not designed to make wishes. It's a lot safer to ask it of an outsider to cast it for you as they probably know ancient languages complex enough to detail the wish in a single sentence. Otherwise it might be best to leave wishes alone or as a last resort. Magic is powerful, wizards use material, somatic and verbal components as well as spell levels to restrain its power and narrow its effect. Wish is what happens when you take all limiters off of magic.

Shpadoinkle
2008-11-24, 06:37 PM
{Scrubbed}

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 06:41 PM
i figure it needs a balance. anyway, Wish only allows you to replicate 8th level spells, in addition to the normal Wish effects, If you are exceeding the normal ones, DM has option to do what he wants.

Way back in pre-advanced D&D, it recommended that only obviously selfish wishes get badly twisted.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-24, 06:51 PM
So, how do my fellow DM's deal with the Wish spell in D&D? Do you follow the letter of the spell, and not permit greater effects? Do you try to pervert the wish if it's a greater effect? What's the deal?

Myself, I tend to always work to give an unexpected result, that still fulfills the intent of the wish.

Wish for what is one: should work exactly as written.

Greater effects risk DMs to be bad. You shoud only pervert a wish that is greater than what is listed.

Wish for 25K gold is allowed so no perversion.

Wishing for Magic item is just a quickj/fast Magic item Creation feat use. It should just be bigger Exp cost (What item normally cost x2 +5K Exp). This creates the item so Dm is being nasty if he perverts the spell by teleporting something.
Example, Cloak of Displacement, minor costs 50K and 2K Exp:
So wishing to create a Cloak of Displacement, minor costs Wish cost of 5K + 4K (2 x 2=4) for a total of 9 K spent in thay casting.

Maerok
2008-11-24, 06:52 PM
{Scrubbed}


I believe that is what the rod of wonder is for. :smallamused: ... :smalleek:

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 06:59 PM
You guys do know that it's really easy to get a Wish SLA which requires no XP right?

Like, easier then it is to get the Wish Spell.

Michaelos
2008-11-24, 07:02 PM
I've only had it happen once, to one of my PCs in a group of 2 PCs and myself as DM. The PC was played by a very chaotic player who was playing a very chaotic person. This is the kind of person who, given a doppleganger and a real dwarf, picks one at random to kill, and somehow picks the doppleganger.

This guy (chaotic wizard/chaotic monk/arcane fist) actually ran off with a ring of wishes with one charge left and the other PC tried to stop him, but as a barbarian she was not well built for the task. Once he was away from everyone except his familiar, he wished for a Deck of Many Things I had mentioned earlier in the game. A giant glowing arrow appeared, which led him into a apparently empty Slaad encampment with empty dwellings and three large bags with movement in them, with the Deck of Many Things located in the center on a small tree stump. Upon taking it, he was attacked by the three chaos beasts that were in the bags. (I had mentioned the bags, he just hadn't bothered to check them very carefully.) After getting inflicted with perpetual shifting (Which is uncurable to him, and only curable by the other PC's NPC friends he had ran away from.), he desperately drew one of the cards and got sucked into the Void. Which saves him from becoming a Chaos beast by trapping his soul (which can't go insane when it is trapped seperately from his chaos infected body.) in it's own prison plane. So his body is lying in a polymorphing coma, and his soul is on a prison plane. The PC started a new character (I'm planning on using the old character as a plot point later.)

The difference between this and the rest of my campaign is that, in my normal campaigning, fate will conspire a bit to keep the characters alive, if I'm accidentally too unfair. In one particularly unfair session, all of the following happened, for instance:


The Balor who paralyzes all of you with Blasphemy does not notice as the NPC Spellsword who activated the teleport trap to the Hydras teleports back, sees a Balor, and drags the paralyzed PC to safety, leaving her Druid cohort and animal companion to their near certain capture/death.

The fight with the 12 headed Hydra Queen and 11 Headed Hydra King who are slaughtering the PC and the NPC Spellsword is interrupted by a mysterious monk who is near unhittable, who blocks one of the Hydras and gives her and the NPC Spellsword a fighting chance.

The Mysterious monk, upon realizing you were in fact his target, decides to save you for a moment after noticing you were attacking him nonlethally and then later falls for a bluff that gets him trapped by a friendly Iron golem.


Any of those situations could have been completely fatal if I hadn't been doing some quick thinking narration. But if you're going to be greedily wishing for a minor artifact, I'm not going to evaporate the guards just because you can't cure their disease.

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 07:02 PM
standard rules for SLAs may be no XP, but most common way of getting them (Archmage high Arcana) overrides this and it does cost XP.

So does the Fiend of Corruption prestige class in Fiend Folio- it gets wish as SLA, but pays in XP every time used.

DM who lets player get Wish as SLA without XP- very very generous.

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 07:04 PM
You guys do know that it's really easy to get a Wish SLA which requires no XP right?

Like, easier then it is to get the Wish Spell.

Really now?
Prove it. And by 'prove it' I mean, 'show me a DM willing to allow something like that.'

hamishspence
2008-11-24, 07:08 PM
Savage species- that feat that allows you to use a monster's supernatural ability. combine with transforming into an efreet.

In general though- DMG said: Allowing some things, like players getting wand of infinite disintegrate, or all criticals being multiplied by five, is obvious mistake.

Wish as SLA without XP cost would I think come under this, legal or not.

Basically, it's Pun-pun by any other name.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-24, 08:05 PM
Once he was away from everyone except his familiar, he wished for a Deck of Many Things I had mentioned earlier in the game. A giant glowing arrow appeared, which led him into a apparently empty Slaad encampment with empty dwellings and three large bags with movement in them, with the Deck of Many Things located in the center on a small tree stump. Upon taking it, he was attacked by the three chaos beasts that were in the bags. (I had mentioned the bags, he just hadn't bothered to check them very carefully.)

Well, that seems okay, he did use Greater than listed effects (can't create an artifact). So perversion seems okay.
But how did he word wish?
Did he say: "let me obtain it?" That would work with arrow pointing where, but really i'm curious.

Why were Chaos beasts in the bags?

arguskos
2008-11-24, 09:02 PM
{Scrubbed}
Dude... calm down. 'sall good. :smallcool: Note how I didn't say I like to do horrible things to my players if they request something the spell can do w/o issue. Hell, they just get whatever they wanted if they do that.

However, when wishing for greater effects, like an artifact or something of similar power, the wish will simply try to fulfill their desire, but since it can't do it normally, an unexpected result with ensue. I'm not doing horrible things to the PC's, I'm just twisting stuff around to make a more unique effect than expected occur. I don't kill PC's with wish, I DO expect them to think through their wishes. If someone asks for the Sword of Kas, I give it to them. Along with whoever currently owns it. Who might want it back. Just saying. :smallwink:

Zeful
2008-11-24, 09:23 PM
{Scrubbed}

Unless they go beyond the spells specified limits. Then the DM can do whatever he wants. The same goes for nearly every method to bypass the XP cost restriction for magic items. It may not be RAW to say "I'm sorry but wishing for something that is within the guidelines of the spell but totally freaking broken is not happening. If you do this again, leave." But it's better than loosing control over the game.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 09:34 PM
Really now?
Prove it. And by 'prove it' I mean, 'show me a DM willing to allow something like that.'

Well since this is a thread asking "How much do you interfere with Wish?" And the answer has largely been, "Not at all for the listed effects." I'm pretty sure that not allowing it consists of interfering with Wish. IE a direct contradiction of the previous statements.


standard rules for SLAs may be no XP, but most common way of getting them (Archmage high Arcana) overrides this and it does cost XP.

So does the Fiend of Corruption prestige class in Fiend Folio- it gets wish as SLA, but pays in XP every time used.

DM who lets player get Wish as SLA without XP- very very generous.

Easiest way of getting them: Being a level 11 Wizard.

Other prime choices: Crafting a Ring of Three Wishes or Rod of Wishes and using it to make more. Shapechange into a Zodak, ect.

Prometheus
2008-11-24, 09:44 PM
Obviously I let them perform any of the spell's stated options. I let them perform things that I consider to be comparable. If they go a little beyond that, I bump it down to that level. If they wish for something that is a true object of hubris, breaking out all the technical language and the like, than I try to take the wish the worse possible way.

Also wishes granted by Efreeti and Zodar take the effects to be as close to their desires as possible, whatever is wished for.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-24, 09:45 PM
Some people go with Wishing for one to teleport from somewhere in the world, to you.

Not something I approve of.

It's one of the listed effects of wish. You do have to beat their SR and they do get a Will Save to resist it though.

Zeful
2008-11-24, 09:48 PM
Also wishes granted by Efreeti and Zodar take the effects to be as close to their desires as possible, whatever is wished for.

The player or the Efreeti? You do know that with the lack of Xp cost to the Efreeti coupled with the lack of gp cost limit on magic items. They can instantly create things like a scroll of wish, ring of three wishes and so on. All by raw.

Douglas
2008-11-24, 09:53 PM
It's one of the listed effects of wish. You do have to beat their SR and they do get a Will Save to resist it though.
I think that was talking about magic items, not creatures. That said, this particular Wish comes with a built in auto-scaling drawback that has nothing at all to do with the Wish itself. The more powerful the item you Wish for in this manner, the more likely it is to be the valued possession of someone powerful. There's a significant chance it will be worn, carried, or wielded by him at the time, in which case it is an attended item and gets a save and SR as the owner to resist the teleportation. If that succeeds, you're out 5000 xp to no effect. If it is not attended at the moment or if the save fails, you have just acquired a new and powerful enemy.

For the listed effects, I'd let it go exactly as written with no penalty. For attempts to circumvent the limits and costs on those effects, I would generally allow it to work as written if it is still technically within the listed effects but would add an appropriate consequence - like the angry former owner hunting you down in the case of teleporting a powerful magic item to avoid the xp cost of actually creating it.

For attempts to negate the cost of the spell, I would in most cases houserule that it doesn't work. In particular, I would never permit negating the extra xp cost of creating a magic item.

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 10:05 PM
Well since this is a thread asking "How much do you interfere with Wish?" And the answer has largely been, "Not at all for the listed effects." I'm pretty sure that not allowing it consists of interfering with Wish. IE a direct contradiction of the previous statements.

Not allowing easily granted free wishes isn't an interference. It's game balance. :smallyuk:
A scroll of wish, a ring of wishes, casting wish- all of these require a hefty amount of some kind of resource. I don't think you're intended to get wishes so easily.

Besides, the context everyone is answering in is what a wish grants, not how easy it is to get a wish.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 10:27 PM
Not allowing easily granted free wishes isn't an interference. It's game balance.

It's interference for Game Balance, but it's still interference.

Why can't people just admit that they interfere with aspects of Wish that are stupid?

Zeful
2008-11-24, 10:30 PM
It's interference for Game Balance, but it's still interference.

Why can't people just admit that they interfere with aspects of Wish that are stupid?


Unless they go beyond the spells specified limits. Then the DM can do whatever he wants. The same goes for nearly every method to bypass the XP cost restriction for magic items. It may not be RAW to say "I'm sorry but wishing for something that is within the guidelines of the spell but totally freaking broken is not happening. If you do this again, leave." But it's better than loosing control over the game.

I did. Character LIMIT!!

Prak
2008-11-24, 10:31 PM
I say the spell is for the benefit of the caster, not to screw him over. I either deal with greater effects, or use a very secific list of possible effects:

Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost:
Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less.
Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less.
Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of
+5)
Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than
the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level
or less, for example).
Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location
on any plane.
Wishes that aren’t Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both:
Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything
she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase
in magic item value.
Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to ”life”, even if they were an undead, construct,
or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back
a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which
can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a
character’s level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won’t do so.
Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last
round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character’s previous initiative pass.
This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character
still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it.
Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character
expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened.
Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an
example:
Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be
done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a
level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race.
Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that).
Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an
Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can’t give in to your request to have a +3
sword. Also, you’ll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that’s free and therefore going
to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That’s because
we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some
characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the
other players don’t. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game.
Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are
produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can’t wish for an item that has wish on
it.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-24, 10:34 PM
A wish spell will do its best to fulfill both the letter of a wish and the wisher's intent. However, a wish can only do so much. Duplicating 9th-level spell effects, for example, is right out.

So if you wish to be able to cast a million spells per day, you get transported to a planet with a much longer day, because a wish just isn't anywhere near powerful enough to give you the ability to cast that many spells in a 24-hour period, but it can easily transport you across space and even between planes.

The upshot of this is that wish will never ever screw you over by giving you a more powerful effect than the one you asked for. If it just can't possibly grant your request in any way, then it will come as close as it can (a partial fulfillment).

You pretty much need to house-rule limits on what a wish from a spell-like ability or a magic item can do. Possibly just that it can't create magic items, period. In theory, you could rule that whoever makes the wish has to pay any XP cost over 5000, but my guess is that this would still be too easy to abuse by getting others to make wishes for you.

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 10:36 PM
It's interference for Game Balance, but it's still interference.

It would be interference if it prevented it from being used as intended. However, my point is that it is intended to be less easily acquired, and that attempting to bypass that should be looked at rather critically.


Why can't people just admit that they interfere with aspects of Wish that are stupid?
I do hope that isn't targeted at me.

The_Snark
2008-11-24, 10:39 PM
I think what Vael is asking is for specific examples of how to get those XP-free Wishes.

Wishing for Rings of Three Wishes technically works, although it's such a cliché that there are stories about that sort of wish going horribly wrong. (The most classic of these would involve the DM letting it work, meaning that the players have infinite Wishes; after the initial thrill every magic item and almost every spell at your disposal, the game would quickly become very boring.)

Using Shapechange and the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species can get you a free wish (from the Zodar). It does technically work, but between DMs who dislike polymorphing, DMs who dislike Wishes, and DMs who actually look at your sheet and raise an eyebrow at that Assume Supernatural Ability (Wish) feat you have listed... well.

-The most common means seems to be using a Candle of Invocation or some such to call an efreet or pit fiend, then using their Wishes... but having a Lawful Evil being—one who is probably annoyed about being summoned and compelled to serve a mortal—make your wishes is quite literally asking for your wish to be twisted into something horrible.

Zeful
2008-11-24, 10:47 PM
I think what Vael is asking is for specific examples of how to get those XP-free Wishes.

Wishing for Rings of Three Wishes technically works, although it's such a cliché that there are stories about that sort of wish going horribly wrong. (The most classic of these would involve the DM letting it work, meaning that the players have infinite Wishes; after the initial thrill every magic item and almost every spell at your disposal, the game would quickly become very boring.)

Using Shapechange and the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species can get you a free wish (from the Zodar). It does technically work, but between DMs who dislike polymorphing, DMs who dislike Wishes, and DMs who actually look at your sheet and raise an eyebrow at that Assume Supernatural Ability (Wish) feat you have listed... well.

-The most common means seems to be using a Candle of Invocation or some such to call an efreet or pit fiend, then using their Wishes... but having a Lawful Evil being—one who is probably annoyed about being summoned and compelled to serve a mortal—make your wishes is quite literally asking for your wish to be twisted into something horrible.

There's also Simulacruming a creature with a wish SLA. Or gating a creature in and using it's wish SLA as part of the short-term service pack (after ordering it to not twist your wish). Of course using an SLA for free, gamebreaking, magic items will cause the hand of god (read: DM) to slug you between the eyes for being a jerk. And you still won't get what you wanted.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-24, 10:52 PM
I say the spell is for the benefit of the caster, not to screw him over. I either deal with greater effects, or use a very secific list of possible effects:
You should have mentioned that that's straight from the Tome of Fiends (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828). C'mon, credit where it's due.

Also: Wishes granted by efreet will tend to screw you over as badly as is conceivable, if not worse, while still granting you what you technically ask. This is because efreet are Lawful Evil bastards who torment mortals for kicks to start with, and the one granting you your wish is likely being forcibly compelled to grant it and resentful about it. (He may actually change from resentful from outright giddy if given the opportunity to extract enough vengeance, but this is not good for you, obviously.) This should pretty much go without saying.

Of course, characters may be better or worse at carefully wording wishes than their players, so if you want to mechanize this, go with an opposed check against the efreeti's Craft(cunning legalistic argument) +14.

tyckspoon
2008-11-24, 10:54 PM
Not allowing easily granted free wishes isn't an interference. It's game balance. :smallyuk:
A scroll of wish, a ring of wishes, casting wish- all of these require a hefty amount of some kind of resource. I don't think you're intended to get wishes so easily.


Count the number of creatures that can grant a Wish as a spell-like (and make a note that most of them are Outsiders of some sort...) Check the PHB for spells that are specifically for the purpose of calling an Outsider to perform a service for you, especially a quick, simple, and costless-to-the-creature service like using a single spell-like ability for your benefit. Notice how those spells universally cost less than actually casting Wish yourself. I don't know, maybe you really aren't meant to get Wishes so easily, but the book sure fooled me about it.. it just looks you aren't meant to cast them yourself.

Lappy9000
2008-11-24, 10:56 PM
Really now?
Prove it. And by 'prove it' I mean, 'show me a DM willing to allow something like that.'

I'd do it :smallbiggrin: however, it's important to take into account that some other resource would be required, like the player's lifeforce or being indebetted to some powerful outsider or something, in addition to having the Wish spells be weak/backfire often. I don't actually utilize experience per say, so the character would simply level later than everyone else, so I'm not sure you could really say:
Point proven. Edit: I do apologize for this terrible attempt at humor.

Prak
2008-11-24, 11:06 PM
You should have mentioned that that's straight from the Tome of Fiends (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828). C'mon, credit where it's due.
Yeah, probably, but I've found that it's not always wise to overtly let on that one is a denizen...

But yes, the list is from the Tome of Fiends and was put together by Franktrollman and K of the Gaming Den.

AmberVael
2008-11-24, 11:11 PM
Count the number of creatures that can grant a Wish as a spell-like (and make a note that most of them are Outsiders of some sort...)
Hmm... lets see...
1) 1% of all Djinn (who actually have higher HD and are rare and unique, so you probably couldn't summon them), and only if you capture them.
2) Solars
3) Glabrezu, once a month, but they demand it to either be about or be granted along with general pain and suffering, or a massive sacrifice.
4) Pit Fiend, once a year.

Soo... not too many.


Check the PHB for spells that are specifically for the purpose of calling an Outsider to perform a service for you, especially a quick, simple, and costless-to-the-creature service like using a single spell-like ability for your benefit.
Planar Binding/Greater Planar Binding would affect a Glabrezu, but you're going to have to do some really evil act for it, so I wouldn't say that is so free and easy to get. It would probably be a quest to get a wish.
Plus it gets to make a will save, AND you have to make charisma checks against it.

Gate might work for Solars (all the others aren't just a simple thing for the creatures since they can't cast wish frequently, or are relatively unique like Advanced Djinn), but it would easily be within a DM's grounds to say that it was a more involved service.

I'm actually failing to find any more spells.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 02:25 AM
Me thinks you forgot this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) Vael

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 02:40 AM
Me thinks you forgot this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) Vael

Yeah, ask the lawfull evil guy to grant you a wish. I'll pay you a visit in the elemental plane of fire when your soul is shackled and enslaved there to the genie because you didn't specify your wish good enough.

Mythology shows that everybody who tries to get wishes from evil creatures ends up geting royally screwed.

Maerok
2008-11-25, 02:43 AM
Well an efreeti is lawful and evil. Which plays out more with wish? Lawful means having to follow your directions but I guess evil is not going out of its way to implement some sort of margin of error.

TakeV
2008-11-25, 02:47 AM
I don't tend to believe in screwing over players, myself. Thus, I wouldn't mess with wishes unless they were game breakers. Something just seems wrong to me that manipulating the very fabric of reality would follow the letter and not intent of a wish.

Adumbration
2008-11-25, 02:54 AM
I personally believe that when a PC is about to use Wish for a greater effect, and the DM is planning to screw him over it, the character should be allowed an intelligence check DC 20 to figure out the possible perversion.

You know, sort of a warning.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 05:04 AM
Well an efreeti is lawful and evil. Which plays out more with wish? Lawful means having to follow your directions but I guess evil is not going out of its way to implement some sort of margin of error.

Lawfull evil is normally described as a corrupt politic. He follows the law all the time. But he follows his own interpretation of the law. Wich normally screws other people over for your benefit.

Also you gotta take in acount planar binding is basically ensalving another creature. The efreeti will be less than happy and anxious for seeing your head in a pole, wich will probably make him hear your wish request a little distorted. What, you asked me to raze your intelegence? Sure, master!

So if you ask the efreeti to call another efreeti and try start a wish chain, you'll probably find yourself in the fire plane, in the middle of a village of greedy efreeti, who'll instantly jump over you, take all your stuff and ensalve your soul for all eternity. Hey, it was you who asked for more efreetis, right? No refunds, sorry.


Who said the players are the only ones allowed to play with the rules?

Talic
2008-11-25, 05:17 AM
Bottom line, if the wish's listed effects are being used, great. Go for it.

For greater effects? Attempt to pervert to get a literal, if undesired, result.

I.E. The wish can create 25,000 gp items. So, if a player wishes for a boat that has a value of 20,000? Great, he gets one.

If he asks for a ship of the line, which has a value of 150,000 gp?

He gets teleported to it. Now he can deal with the owners, and the consequences of piracy if he manages to wrest control of it from said owners.

He asked for a boat, the spell couldn't create it, so it seeks a way to fulfill with what it can do. It can replicate teleport, so it does so.

Michaelos
2008-11-25, 08:14 AM
Well, that seems okay, he did use Greater than listed effects (can't create an artifact). So perversion seems okay.
But how did he word wish?
Did he say: "let me obtain it?" That would work with arrow pointing where, but really i'm curious.

Why were Chaos beasts in the bags?

I believe it was along the lines of that. He wasn't surprised or unhappy by the Arrow, so it worked. Chaos beasts were in the bags because after losing their first artifact (A rainbow belt which grants 8 "Positive" levels, which was later destroyed) they weren't just going to leave their second one unguarded, and I figured Slaad would have access to Chaos beasts since they are both from the elemental plane of Chaos.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 08:58 AM
So In other words, DM must make up bull**** to punish player because Player uses Efferti for intended purpose. Oh and by the way, Wishee is way smarter, way more powerful, and has complete control over Wisher.

Seriously, you don't Wish for an Int raise, you Wish for a Tome of Understanding +5 to be created (in a specified location if your DM is an asshat).

You don't wish for more Effertis, you Wish for a Rod of Wishes (to be created in a specific location) and since these are all listed effects, there is absolutely no reason for them not to work.

As for garnering the aid of the Efferti:

Hey, Efferti, you are trapped in a Magic Binding that you can neither escape from or attack out of. I'm a powerful Wizard, and these are my several powerful friends. You have two choices, You can grant me a Wish as I intend, and in return I will use a Second Wish to benefit you, or you can refuse me, or attempt to pervert my Wish, in which case, you better kill all four of us, because otherwise, you are going to die right here.

So which is it? Complete Gain with no loss? Or risk Death for no reason?

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 09:08 AM
So In other words, DM must make up bull**** to punish player because Player uses Efferti for intended purpose. Oh and by the way, Wishee is way smarter, way more powerful, and has complete control over Wisher.

Efreeti's intended purpose is to be an oponent for the party. It's a monster. It has CR. It's not a piece of equipment or a spell. And it has quite good mental stats.



Seriously, you don't Wish for an Int raise, you Wish for a Tome of Understanding +5 to be created (in a specified location if your DM is an asshat).

That is actually three wishes. You're asking for an item, for it to be created and for the item to be put into a specific place.



You don't wish for more Effertis, you Wish for a Rod of Wishes (to be created in a specific location) and since these are all listed effects, there is absolutely no reason for them not to work.


Listed? Where? There's no such thing as a rod of wishes. You can't receive what doesn't exist. And a custom magic item that makes wish at will is still much costier than wish allows before risking backfire.



As for garnering the aid of the Efferti:

Hey, Efferti, you are trapped in a Magic Binding that you can neither escape from or attack out of. I'm a powerful Wizard, and these are my several powerful friends. You have two choices, You can grant me a Wish as I intend, and in return I will use a Second Wish to benefit you, or you can refuse me, or attempt to pervert my Wish, in which case, you better kill all four of us, because otherwise, you are going to die right here.

So which is it? Complete Gain with no loss? Or risk Death for no reason?

Simple. The efreeti grants you the wish as you intend. All the party dies with your perverted wish, no save of any kind allowed, leaving their equipment behind, wich the released efreeti picks up and takes home.

Roll up new characters. Still wanna try to abuse efreetis?

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 10:08 AM
Efreeti's intended purpose is to be an oponent for the party. It's a monster. It has CR. It's not a piece of equipment or a spell. And it has quite good mental stats.

It is a challenge, not an opponent, and it exists to be wished from, thus the 3/wishes a day only granted to non-genies.


That is actually three wishes. You're asking for an item, for it to be created and for the item to be put into a specific place.

No, it is one wish, This one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm): "A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

The least you could do is actually try to pervert the wish being made instead of being completely wrong.

"I wish for this ring to become a Ring of three Wishes as per the adding powers to an item rules of Wish." Is only one Wish. I know you don't like that Wish can do that, but that doesn't change that it is still one Wish.


Listed? Where? There's no such thing as a rod of wishes. You can't receive what doesn't exist. And a custom magic item that makes wish at will is still much costier than wish allows before risking backfire.

Again, listed effect: "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

So you could easily create a Staff of Wishes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm)

Or just a Ring of Wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#threeWishes).

And you are still ignoring the fact that explicitly as described by the Wish spell there is no magic item that is "costier" than Wish allows.


Simple. The efreeti grants you the wish as you intend. All the party dies with your perverted wish, no save of any kind allowed, leaving their equipment behind, wich the released efreeti picks up and takes home.

I'm sorry, lets pretend for just a second that we aren't stupid DMs trying to punish our players for using the rules that are there. There is no Wish in that sentence anywhere. Yes, you can lie to yourself and pretend you are perverting a wish, or you can just admit that you hate the fact that D&D provides free wishes to players and so you punish them in an arbitrary way that has nothing to do with them wishing incorrectly at all and only serves to prove my point that free Wishes are easy as pie, and provide you with any items you could possibly want and that is a problem with D&D that has to be corrected by the DM or Gentleman's agreement.

And no, saying that the wish will be perverted is not correcting by the DM (Especially, since as you've proven, you can't pervert the actual Wish, only pervert a different Wish that wasn't made or just arbitrarily let the Efferti use his Wish for a Greater effect without anyone asking him to use a wish neither of which involves anything other then being a **** DM because you are too invested in the RAW being perfect that you are willing to lie to yourself instead of just saying, "Wish doesn't do that."), saying that Wish can't create any item, or that Wish SLAs cost XP does fix it to some effect.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 10:24 AM
the rules stat explicitly that wish cannot create items above a certain value.

as for "intent" of wishes- given that in most settings 9th level charcters haven't used them to Take Over The World, I guess the intent, is that to power of the wish should not exceed a certain level.

And given that "normal" ways of getting SLAs tend to have them still cost XP, that suggests ways that don't have this limitation, are bugs in the rules.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-25, 10:41 AM
the rules stat explicitly that wish cannot create items above a certain value.


No, the rules don't.
But it cost Exp. It would cost too much Exp for anyone but an Efreeti/Solar to wish for a Staff of Wish before Epic (and in an Epic game Wish is nothing).

Remember, double Exp cost: Each wish is 5K x 50 charges =250 Xp x 2 +5 from the Wish spell=505K Experience.

No one can afford that.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 10:44 AM
25000 Gp- non magic items.

in 3.0, limit covered magic items as well- 15000 gp.

I wonder what it would be like if they'd kept that.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 10:48 AM
the rules stat explicitly that wish cannot create items above a certain value.
Actually no. Wish states that it can't create a non magical item worth more than 25,000 GP. Magical items, by RAW, of any value can be created.


And given that "normal" ways of getting SLAs tend to have them still cost XP, that suggests ways that don't have this limitation, are bugs in the rules.

The normal ways to get free wish's are as follows:

1. Use Gate to gate in a Solar and order it to use it's Wish for you (it can be completed in under 17 rounds so it doesn't cost a thing and it can't refuse and can be ordered not to twist your wish.

2. Use Gate to gate in an Effertie and order it to use it's Wish's for you (it can be completed in under 17 rounds so it doesn't cost a thing and it can't refuse and can be ordered not to twist your wish).

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 10:54 AM
twist is one thing, power another. Giving yourself A 9th level SLA is much more powerful than Casting a 9th level spell- Solar or efreeti are still limited by the normal power of Wish.

Dervag
2008-11-25, 11:01 AM
I personally believe that when a PC is about to use Wish for a greater effect, and the DM is planning to screw him over it, the character should be allowed an intelligence check DC 20 to figure out the possible perversion.

You know, sort of a warning.I'd say this is a good case to match the efreet's intelligence check against the PC's. Is the efreet clever enough to spot the loophole, or will the PC pull off a Solomon the Wise and trick the efreet into doing something it would not willingly do?


Efreeti's intended purpose is to be an oponent for the party. It's a monster. It has CR. It's not a piece of equipment or a spell. And it has quite good mental stats.One the other hand, the efreet is also a plot device. It's the archetypal "evil genie" from Arabian mythology. As such, trying to match wits with it to get it to give you what you want with its magical powers is a fully reasonable thing to do with it.

To get away with it, you must either be much, much smarter than it is, or you must be much, much more powerful than it is. That's reasonable, if your characters can do it. It may still try to pervert the intent of your wish. But it may also play it straight because it's intelligent enough to understand that sometimes the best way to get out of a bad situation is to play things straight.

Not every creature with a CR is created to serve only as a monster to be killed in personal combat.


That is actually three wishes. You're asking for an item, for it to be created and for the item to be put into a specific place.I think that's a very bad interpretation. "I wish for a pile of gold to appear on this table" is not two wishes, because time, place, and manner restrictions are intrinsic to the nature of an act.


Simple. The efreeti grants you the wish as you intend. All the party dies with your perverted wish, no save of any kind allowed, leaving their equipment behind, wich the released efreeti picks up and takes home.Wait, what the hell? That makes no sense at all; that wasn't your wish. That's not even perverting intent, that's just making random garbage up and lying about whether the wisher wished for it at all.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 11:02 AM
twist is one thing, power another. Giving yourself A 9th level SLA is much more powerful than Casting a 9th level spell- Solar or efreeti are still limited by the normal power of Wish.

RAW a wish can create any non artifact magical item. No matter it's power. RAW that is within the power of wish.

Giving yourself a 9th level SLA is a bad idea. First because most of the ways to get them tend to keep the XP cost and second because if the DM feels like houseruling then you will still get stuck with the XP cost.

RAW the DM can not do anything to stop you from doing the following:
1: Use a Scroll of Gate to gate in an Effertie
2: Order the Effertie to not twist your wishes or to even think about doing anything except what it sees as your intent and to fullfill your orders to the absolute best of it's abilities.
3: Order the Effertie to wish you up a Scroll of Gate.
4: Order the Effertie to wish you up any magic item (that is not an artifact) that you desire.
5: Repeat step 4.
6: Order the Effertie to die.

You have gained 2 free wishes and started chain that will let you gain as many as you will ever want at no cost and you have stopped the effertie from seeking revenge. As a called creature it is permanently dead and as an outsider it can't be resurrected short of Divine Intervention.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 11:04 AM
true ressurection, Wish, Miracle, Revive Outsider (Spell compendium)- all work on outsiders- check Outsider entry.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 11:05 AM
true ressurection, Wish, Miracle, Revive Outsider (Spell compendium)- all work on outsiders- check Outsider entry.

Ok, short of mostly 9th level spells. The point is that it isn't easy. And it requires someone willing to bring it back.

Although I tend to end with a Mind Rape to make them forget the whole experience.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 11:08 AM
Their kith and kin? LE outsiders with families. they have whole cities full of them. And there is Kossuth, God of Fire, and Imix, Prince of Elemental Evil.

Mindrape doesn't guarantee some of these will not find out whats happened their servants/family members with various powers.

AmberVael
2008-11-25, 11:24 AM
And thus the thread falls into that terrible chasm that separates RAW and common sense.
Sadly, it also seems that some people have mistake one for the other.

This thread makes me sad.
I hope you're all happy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 11:32 AM
And thus the thread falls into that terrible chasm that separates RAW and common sense.
Sadly, it also seems that some people have mistake one for the other.

This thread makes me sad.
I hope you're all happy.

Well what happens when the players do get a Solar, Effertie, etc. to give them a wish. Either the XP cost is paid, in which case it is on the caster (in this case the Solar or Effertie) or there is no XP cost (in which case you can wish for whatever you want).

I personally treat wish as Ye Old Magic Item Shop. At level 20 the players are supposed to have 760,000 GP worth of magic items at all times. They are supposed to face things like Disjunction, rust monsters, and other item destroying effects. So I throw all that stuff at them and then the wizard just whips out his scroll of gate and replaces all of the stuff so that the party is back at WBL.

To stop them from abusing it much past that point talk to them out of character, if that doesn't work you just start whacking them with things to get their wealth back to where it is supposed to be.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 12:36 PM
It is a challenge, not an opponent, and it exists to be wished from, thus the 3/wishes a day only granted to non-genies.


Balors exist to spread evil and kill stuff, since it has spell like abilities that do so quite well. Wanna me to teleport some hundreds of them near your 7th level party?



No, it is one wish, This one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm): "A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

The least you could do is actually try to pervert the wish being made instead of being completely wrong.

"I wish for this ring to become a Ring of three Wishes as per the adding powers to an item rules of Wish." Is only one Wish. I know you don't like that Wish can do that, but that doesn't change that it is still one Wish.


Wish also says this:
The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

But do you care about it? Of course not! You only read the parts that matter to you.



And no, saying that the wish will be perverted is not correcting by the DM (Especially, since as you've proven, you can't pervert the actual Wish, only pervert a different Wish that wasn't made or just arbitrarily let the Efferti use his Wish for a Greater effect without anyone asking him to use a wish neither of which involves anything other then being a **** DM because you are too invested in the RAW being perfect that you are willing to lie to yourself instead of just saying, "Wish doesn't do that."), saying that Wish can't create any item, or that Wish SLAs cost XP does fix it to some effect.

Now you're just puting words on my mouth. I never said wish SLA costs exp.

Besides, your whole idea reeks of metagaming. How does your 7th level characters knows everything that there is to know about efreetis? No, it isn't knowledge checks for sure. Because a sucessfull knowledge check gives you a little bit of information about the subject, not the equivalent of an encyclopedia with every single detail there is to know, like your character seems to have.

Crow
2008-11-25, 02:01 PM
I think in a lot of ways, the Efreeti can end up screwing itself over if it attempts to twist your wish in the more over-the-top ways. The Efreeti too is bound by the limitations of what the spell can do, and a wish that exceeds the specific listed effects of the spell could backfire upon it.

In any case, a caster who gates in an efreeti can order the creature to do what he wants. The only inkling in the spell description that a creature would attempt to screw over the caster is if it is too powerful for the caster to control. As long as the caster doesn't stray from the listed effects of wish, there should be no ill effects.

You could order an efreeti to create scrolls of Gate (around 9k gp) all day long.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 02:09 PM
Outsiders can in fact be charged Xp for their acts- it states the gods themselves have only a 30000 XP pool for items, miracles, wishes, etc. Though they are usually outsiders with class levels as well as spell-like abilities (dragon gods like Tiamat and Bahamut may be exception to having class levels)

Same should apply- summon an efreeti and ask for a Wish- he might not have the XP to spare.

Yukitsu
2008-11-25, 02:10 PM
Except the rules state that SLAs are free of both material and XP cost.

Crow
2008-11-25, 02:11 PM
Outsiders can in fact be charged Xp for their acts- it states the gods themselves have only a 30000 XP pool for items, miracles, wishes, etc. Though they are usually outsiders with class levels as well as spell-like abilities (dragon gods like Tiamat and Bahamut may be exception to having class levels)

Same should apply- summon an efreeti and ask for a Wish- he might not have the XP to spare.

Well in that case, he's got at least 15000, leaving 10000 for your items. Afterall, he can cast it 3 times (everyday). Plus what was mentioned by Yukitsu in the post above.

As much as I hate (and love) this portion of the rules, the Efreeti wish loophole is pretty solid.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 02:17 PM
For monsters, yes: Generally when a PC gets a spell-like ability, they end up paying XP costs (Archmage High Arcana being most notable example) Allowing PCs access to infinite wishes, ever, is a mistake if ever there was one, if access to infinite disintegrates is listed as such a mistake in DMG.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 02:28 PM
For monsters, yes: Generally when a PC gets a spell-like ability, they end up paying XP costs (Archmage High Arcana being most notable example) Allowing PCs access to infinite wishes, ever, is a mistake if ever there was one, if access to infinite disintegrates is listed as such a mistake in DMG.

No one has said anything about the PC's actually gaining wish as an SLA and using it themselves. There are a few ways to do that and not get hit with the XP cost but all of them are more trouble that they are worth. It's much better to just use Solar's or Effertie, in which case you never get hit with any XP cost.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 02:34 PM
Same principle. Anything that begins with the words "Gaterape" or "I wish for creature to let me cast one spell on it" only leads to trouble. The game as played by most players is simply not designed around that sort of thing.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-25, 04:09 PM
Obviously, wishes need to have limits in order for the game to work in anything like a normal fashion. You could try to balance the game and create a believable setting around the assumption that beyond some level characters have unlimited equipment, but I wouldn't want to try. D&D isn't really designed to work like that.

I'd seriously consider just removing the ability of wish to create magic items. It's still plenty powerful without it. Even if you don't go that far, there needs to be a limit on how powerful a magic item wish can create. Even a very high limit like "no epic magic items" is way better than no limit at all. XP costs do not reliably balance it, because they are too easy to circumvent. If nothing else, D&D has plenty of magic to grant you control over other creatures, so you can force someone else to pay the XP cost instead of having to do it yourself.


So In other words, DM must make up bull**** to punish player because Player uses Efferti for intended purpose.
The DM twists the wish to punish the character because the efreeti twists the wish to punish the character. That's what the players should expect an enslaved Lawful Evil outsider to try to do if they have any sense. Anything else is out-of-character for the monster in question. This really is a special case that works very differently from casting a wish yourself.

Efreet have sufficiently low CR and HD that getting wishes from them is surprisingly easy, contrasted to other things you can get wishes from. The idea that these wishes should come without a catch is stupid and unbalancing.

In case the players don't have the sense to figure this out for themselves, a DC 20 Knowledge(the planes) check should still let a character know this, because efreet really should be infamous for this kind of stuff amongst those remotely familiar with them. And if a character isn't remotely familiar with efreet, he shouldn't have any reason to be trying to bind one. So pretty much everyone who risks this problem should have advance warning.


So which is it? Complete Gain with no loss? Or risk Death for no reason?
Um, do you seriously think that efreet never thought of the whole splitting 3 wishes with a mortal trick on their own? They can and do do that whenever the hell they want. They're not going to appreciate being forced to do that on somebody else's terms.

You can't bribe an efreeti with anything that you can get from a wish. DUH. They have loads of wealth and power already as the exceedingly spoiled nobility of the Elemental Plane of Fire. Besides extracting horrible vengeance on anyone who controls them, what they really care about is social standing amongst beings of similar station, because that's pretty much the only thing they want that isn't available to them in unlimited supply. Help one to impress all the other efreet and then he'll be cooperative. But frankly, if you can do that, it's probably trivially easy for you to acquire untwisted wishes from other sources anyway.


Well what happens when the players do get a Solar, Effertie, etc. to give them a wish.
Well, one major issue is just how easy this should be. Gate, for example, is stupidly more useful than summon monster or dominate monster for controlling powerful creatues and in a way that the XP cost doesn't even begin to balance, so it's an obvious candidate for banning.

If pre-epic mortals are bossing solars around instead of vice versa, then clearly something's gone screwy. If solars can grant a wish with any XP cost without paying that XP cost, then they're the obscenely powerful ones, and should have means in place to protect them from being controlled by lesser beings.


I personally treat wish as Ye Old Magic Item Shop. At level 20 the players are supposed to have 760,000 GP worth of magic items at all times. They are supposed to face things like Disjunction, rust monsters, and other item destroying effects. So I throw all that stuff at them and then the wizard just whips out his scroll of gate and replaces all of the stuff so that the party is back at WBL.
But there's nothing limiting them to WBL, and no obvious limit to their wealth at all. There's no clear in-character reason why the wizard wouldn't just conjure up every magic item that the party might possibly need.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 04:18 PM
and we can't blame 3.5 here; candles of Invocation granting Gate were in 2nd ed too.

Crow
2008-11-25, 04:20 PM
and we can't blame 3.5 here; candles of Invocation granting Gate were in 2nd ed too.

At least with the candle, the character still has to pay an xp cost for the Gate spell.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 04:25 PM
But there's nothing limiting them to WBL, and no obvious limit to their wealth at all. There's no clear in-character reason why the wizard wouldn't just conjure up every magic item that the party might possibly need.

Because Ye Olde DM says "No more wish abuse"? Or the DM just breaks out the big guns to re balance it.

RAW a level 21 wizard is a very difficult encounter for 4 level 17 characters. The fact that that level 21 wizard is Cindy with epic magic is irrelevant to the CR calculations. So if the players abuse wish to get absurdly more powerful than they are supposed to be the DM just starts bringing out challenges that are in line with their power level.

I've never had a problem with players when I just say "I don't care what you do with wish or wish abuse so long as you don't exceed WBL. You can replace your equipment every day for all I care, just don't exceed WBL and I won't break out epic spellcasting."

Oh yeah, and with epic casting you can make it impossible for anyone to cast wish in the first place. So if they start abusing it Cindy will just say "No more Wishes" and reality will be altered to comply.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 04:27 PM
yes, but 1000 XP to get effects worth a whole lot more than that seems a bit iffy.

Crow
2008-11-25, 04:31 PM
yes, but 1000 XP to get effects worth a whole lot more than that seems a bit iffy.

I didn't say it fixed the problem...but at least it makes the (laughable) effort. :smalltongue:

Zeful
2008-11-25, 04:31 PM
and we can't blame 3.5 here; candles of Invocation granting Gate were in 2nd ed too.

Yes we can. 3.0 Wish had a GP restriction on magic items. 3.5's doesn't. If I'm going to Dm a game with wish acessable, I'm using the 3.0 version. The player doesn't like it he can leave.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 04:41 PM
when GP limit is enforced, the "teleport object to me" is invoked and "if you can teleport people with wish, why not object?"

I can't remember what 2nd eds Wish limits were.

in Master set D&D, it was 50000 gp (at 1XP per Gp) Also, you could gain the use of a magic item teleported from somewhere else for a short time- then it vanished.

Personally, i'd favor that- Yes, you get the Epic sword. For one encounter- thats it.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 05:06 PM
Balors exist to spread evil and kill stuff, since it has spell like abilities that do so quite well. Wanna me to teleport some hundreds of them near your 7th level party?

Balors exist to be fought at level 20, Efferti's exist to be Wished from and negotiated with at level 8.


Wish also says this:
The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

But do you care about it? Of course not! You only read the parts that matter to you.

Actually, I do read the entire thing, unlike you. Which is why I know that the statement only applies to greater effects. Reading is fun.


Now you're just puting words on my mouth. I never said wish SLA costs exp.

No I am not putting words in your mouth. I did not say that you said those things, I said that changing those things would fix some of the problems with Wish. You see, unlike you, I am not wedded to some principle that the rules make perfect sense and are not imbalanced in any way, so I feel perfectly free to change them.


The DM twists the wish to punish the character because the efreeti twists the wish to punish the character. That's what the players should expect an enslaved Lawful Evil outsider to try to do if they have any sense. Anything else is out-of-character for the monster in question. This really is a special case that works very differently from casting a wish yourself.

Efreet have sufficiently low CR and HD that getting wishes from them is surprisingly easy, contrasted to other things you can get wishes from. The idea that these wishes should come without a catch is stupid and unbalancing.

No, they don't. When presented with the choice of dieing or living, Efreeti choose life. Perverting a Wish results in Death. Not a good idea. Seeking to piss off people who can kill you on a whim and have you bound is out of character for anything with Int higher then 5.

And my point is that the Efreet is not smart enough to pervert the wish, and as evidenced by Olemasco, given certain player/DM set ups, neither is the DM.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 05:17 PM
Efreeti have a fairly high Intelligence.

and twisted wishes don't have to kick in immediately- the aforesaid temporary item back in Master D&D. Or the item taken direct from somebody's stores. And they want it back.

"efreeti exist to get wishes from at level 8" that seems like an overassumption.

Doomsy
2008-11-25, 06:11 PM
When you're asking for a powerful spell effect that depends on your exact wording and the goodwill of the creature casting it, it is not 'bull****' nor 'DM being a ****' to assume that a lawful evil creature will try to screw you as hard as he can.

Evil is not nice and you're dealing with an intelligent, highly able being, not a wish granting factory that really has your best outcome in mind. You're dealing with an intelligent, evil, lawful being that is not happy and here under duress. To treat it like a magical benevolent wish giving factory is quite frankly immature and irresponsible behavior IC and would lead to screw overs. Lawful does not mean loyal, evil does not mean stupid, and assumptions lead to more casualties than anything else.

Secondly, evil and lawful? Malevolent lawyer. I would *expect* serious exact wording coming from that, same as a balor. It is how they would think IC from their society, not, "Oh well, I *could* screw you over on this but you know I think I'll stick to the spirit of the arrangement." See, that is not how evil works. That's good. While you can rationalize it with 'not in their interest blah blah blah' the fact is: They don't care. Once they escape you have a powerful enemy whom you've severely irritated who will probably offer a free wish to your worst enemy after doing their even best to cripple you.

As for 'do what I say or die?' Oh yes. That is a *great* plan for dealing with a creature that can cast a spell that alters reality itself and knows you might well kill it anyway or keep it imprisoned forever. I mean, seriously. That is genius. You know how to seriously inspire loyalty there and I'm sure there will be absolutely no attempt to use the wish to outright destroy you to ensure its own survival.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 06:14 PM
As for 'do what I say or die?' Oh yes. That is a *great* plan for dealing with a creature that can cast a spell that alters reality itself and knows you might well kill it anyway or keep it imprisoned forever. I mean, seriously. That is genius. You know how to seriously inspire loyalty there and I'm sure there will be absolutely no attempt to use the wish to outright destroy you to ensure its own survival.

Except it can't cast the spell itself. Only for you.

Captain Six
2008-11-25, 06:19 PM
Efreeti have a fairly high Intelligence.

They get a higher bonus to ALL mental stats than any PHB race, so the player characters are the stupid ones here. An Efreeti could pervert a wish to kill everyone but him in the room or trick them into wording the wish into something they could. Maybe an opposed INT or CHA check to convince you to let him get his wish first, which would be just used to kill you. Besides if you kill him you would get a lot of nastiest on your tail, Lawful Evil suggests allies. Hell, capturing an outsider and holding them hostage with threats on their life if they don't do what they say could get GOOD outsiders after you in my campaign. But then I'm talking as someone who's considered playing one of these guys. Sounds rather boring if my entire point is to be summoned and casting wish for others. :smallannoyed: Properly optimized an Efreeti could probably catch a few arrogant adventurers by surprise.

Doomsy
2008-11-25, 06:19 PM
Except it can't cast the spell itself. Only for you.


Yeah. So again. You better be very careful of the wording. It's not DM dickishness, it is you being stupid otherwise. Wrecking you is probably the best way to insure you never bother it again. It is not a set piece, it is a highly intelligent and dangerous creature with its own plans. Treating it otherwise is unwise. Not to mention, you're not the only one who can use wish and you've just motivated it to see how much power it can bring someone who hates you for pure spiteful revenge.

paddyfool
2008-11-25, 06:22 PM
Except it can't cast the spell itself. Only for you. any non-genie

Fixed it for you. They aren't completely without access to that ability of theirs - they'd just need to get some friend, vassal, slave, or enemy-of-their-enemy (by which I mean one of your character's enemies) to Wish for something bad to happen to you.

Crow
2008-11-25, 06:47 PM
Since they (Efreeti) can't Wish for themselves, and other Efreeti can't do so for them, it should be painfully obvious that granting two non-perverted wishes in exchange for a third (final) wish to made by the wizard for the benefit of the Efreeti (contingent upon proper results from the previous wishes) is a good deal.

This actually seems like something a lawful evil entity might do to get ahead.

tokonaut
2008-11-25, 07:07 PM
Why should their be a limit on wishes shouldn't the hardships endured and the time put into obtaining the wish be payment enough?

olentu
2008-11-25, 07:21 PM
The usually stated reason why "the hardships endured and the time put into obtaining the wish" is not payment enough is the existence of the Candle of Invocation for 8,400 gp.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 07:31 PM
They get a higher bonus to ALL mental stats than any PHB race, so the player characters are the stupid ones here. An Efreeti could pervert a wish to kill everyone but him in the room or trick them into wording the wish into something they could. Maybe an opposed INT or CHA check to convince you to let him get his wish first, which would be just used to kill you. Besides if you kill him you would get a lot of nastiest on your tail, Lawful Evil suggests allies. Hell, capturing an outsider and holding them hostage with threats on their life if they don't do what they say could get GOOD outsiders after you in my campaign. But then I'm talking as someone who's considered playing one of these guys. Sounds rather boring if my entire point is to be summoned and casting wish for others. :smallannoyed: Properly optimized an Efreeti could probably catch a few arrogant adventurers by surprise.

Except that the Wizard, to be powerful enough to bind them, has to 1) A wizard. 2) A level 11 Wizard.

Which means that you have a minimum Int score of 15 to even cast the spell, smarter then the average Efreet, and a likely Int score of 26-30.

Seriously, they are a CR 8 creature with a +2 to Int, how about a Gray Elf.

Seriously, Int score matters, not racial bonus to Int, and you seriously get as many stat points from gaining 8 levels as the efreet gets racial.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-25, 08:56 PM
Because Ye Olde DM says "No more wish abuse"?
Does the DM's booming voice appear out of nowhere to be heard by the PCs, or did you miss the "in-character" part of what you quoted?

If you're happy with a game where the characters behave in a bizarre fashion inexplicable within the context of the gameworld because everybody's metagaming, then bully for you. But some gamers would like for people in the game to be able to make in-character decisions without bringing reality as they know it crashing down.

No, wait. The real problem is that reality as they know it shouldn't even have lasted this long, because their abilities aren't anything new.


No, they don't. When presented with the choice of dieing or living, Efreeti choose life.
That's actually non-obvious. I know that if I was an efreeti, I'd have made all sorts of arrangements to ensure that I get resurrected no matter how I'm killed. It's not like they don't have the means.

You're right that they're not actually that smart, though. I'm not sure if the people calling them "highly intelligent" just assumed that and didn't check their stat block, but Int 12 really isn't all that impressive. It's only slightly above the human average.

Honestly, they do look sort of like they were built for PCs to be able to get wishes from easily. But is it really a good idea for the PCs to be able to get wishes easily at around level 8? And seriously, why the hell is there a ring of three wishes that costs 97,950 gp if you're supposed to be able to do the same job with a 8,400 gp candle of invocation?

Can we at least agree that infinite wish loops ought to be prevented? Getting an indefinite amount of wishes granted seems rather overpowered for mid-level characters, even if they can't wish for magic items.

Vinotaur
2008-11-25, 10:25 PM
That's actually non-obvious. I know that if I was an efreeti, I'd have made all sorts of arrangements to ensure that I get resurrected no matter how I'm killed. It's not like they don't have the means.

They really don't. Core only, a Wish or Miracle is the only thing that can bring them back, and so they can't actually bride support from anyone. Maybe from another Efreet using the Wish granted to him by an adventuring party, but even then, that only works if he has a reason to bring you back, like being eternally in your debt.

I'd rather give away Wishes then eternally (or for a couple hundred years) serve someone else.


You're right that they're not actually that smart, though. I'm not sure if the people calling them "highly intelligent" just assumed that and didn't check their stat block, but Int 12 really isn't all that impressive. It's only slightly above the human average.

Honestly, they do look sort of like they were built for PCs to be able to get wishes from easily. But is it really a good idea for the PCs to be able to get wishes easily at around level 8? And seriously, why the hell is there a ring of three wishes that costs 97,950 gp if you're supposed to be able to do the same job with a 8,400 gp candle of invocation?

Can we at least agree that infinite wish loops ought to be prevented? Getting an indefinite amount of wishes granted seems rather overpowered for mid-level characters, even if they can't wish for magic items.

I've been saying this entire thread that it's a bad thing that needs to be corrected. I've just been told that it doesn't exist.

But the answer to the ring of three wishes and the level 8 question are the same. If you change the rules such that Wish can't create magical items, then there really isn't that big a deal, since these are Wishes which require at minimum a 5th and 3rd level spell slot, and that can only be performed out of combat.

The Ring is both an in Combat use, and a decent plot device to find if for some reason one of the PCs get's devoured by a Barghest and you don't have a Wizard in the party. (For example, because he was just eaten by a Barghest.)

Thane of Fife
2008-11-25, 10:49 PM
I can't remember what 2nd eds Wish limits were.



If it [the wish] is used to alter reality with respect to damage sustained by a party, to bring a dead creature to life, or to escape from a difficult situation by lifting the spellcaster (and his party) from one place to another, it will not cause the wizard any disability. Other forms of wishes, however, cause the spellcaster to weaken.... Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried out. Casting a wish spell ages the caster five years.
The discretionary power of the DM is necessary in order to maintain game balance.

Also note that 2e's Gate doesn't grant the caster any control whatsoever on whatever comes through.

hamishspence
2008-11-26, 08:18 AM
A wish, Or a Miracle or True Ressurection, outsider statblock explicitly stats True Res works.

City of Brass Grand Sultan is a high level caster.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 08:34 AM
Since they (Efreeti) can't Wish for themselves, and other Efreeti can't do so for them, it should be painfully obvious that granting two non-perverted wishes in exchange for a third (final) wish to made by the wizard for the benefit of the Efreeti (contingent upon proper results from the previous wishes) is a good deal.

This actually seems like something a lawful evil entity might do to get ahead.
If they had no other choices, yes.
But if the alternative was "Tommy here serves me. He wishes for everything I tell him to wish for. In exchange, he gets all the beer, steak, and hookers he wants. Also, I refrain from killing his sister..."
Perhaps said Efreeti has no desire to talk to living wizards (let alone grant them wishes).

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 11:38 AM
A wish, Or a Miracle or True Ressurection, outsider statblock explicitly stats True Res works.

City of Brass Grand Sultan is a high level caster.

Which again is the point: Would you rather suffer intense pain, die, then owe someone 500 years of service, or give a wish to someone and then get one in return.


If they had no other choices, yes.
But if the alternative was "Tommy here serves me. He wishes for everything I tell him to wish for. In exchange, he gets all the beer, steak, and hookers he wants. Also, I refrain from killing his sister..."
Perhaps said Efreeti has no desire to talk to living wizards (let alone grant them wishes).

Except the part where they don't get a choice in the matter, because they are called and force to serve.

Crow
2008-11-26, 12:29 PM
I think this talk of Efreeti twisting wishes is nonsense. If you call a chaotic evil being throug a gate and order it to fight for you, do you guys have it turn upon the caster? After all, they're chaotic and evil, so why would they bother to listen to the wizard?

I understand the need to limit the availability of free wishes, but people are just making things up and claiming they're canon.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 01:08 PM
Except the part where they don't get a choice in the matter, because they are called and force to serve.

I was talking about trying to make fair deals with Efreeti, not about mind-controlling Efreeti. That's a different proposition entirely. If you try that, the question is no longer whether it wants to deal with you. The question is then whether it has ever had Tommy Wish for a contingent-type effect...

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 01:32 PM
I was talking about trying to make fair deals with Efreeti, not about mind-controlling Efreeti. That's a different proposition entirely. If you try that, the question is no longer whether it wants to deal with you. The question is then whether it has ever had Tommy Wish for a contingent-type effect...

Planar Binding is not Mind control. It still forces them to carry out a service they agree to, it also forces them to agree to a service if you can beat their Cha check. Which you can.

Zeful
2008-11-26, 01:37 PM
Planar Binding is not Mind control. It still forces them to carry out a service they agree to, it also forces them to agree to a service if you can beat their Cha check. Which you can.

They can't agree to performing wishes if they have none, because Tommy used them all up already. Planar Binding and the Magic Circle will run out before a day is up, so back to square one.

Yukitsu
2008-11-26, 01:39 PM
They can't agree to performing wishes if they have none, because Tommy used them all up already. Planar Binding and the Magic Circle will run out before a day is up, so back to square one.

Actually, recasting circle is fine, so that won't come up as a problem, and planar binding never runs out.

NEO|Phyte
2008-11-26, 01:44 PM
They can't agree to performing wishes if they have none, because Tommy used them all up already. Planar Binding and the Magic Circle will run out before a day is up, so back to square one.

A magic circle focused inward to bind a creature lasts 24 hours per caster level. It's in the spell description. The binding itself is instantaneous.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 01:48 PM
Planar Binding is not Mind control... forces them to agree to a service if you can beat their Cha check. Which you can.

How is that not mind control?

Yukitsu
2008-11-26, 01:54 PM
How is that not mind control?

Because it doesn't have the [mind influencing] tag. :smalltongue:

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 01:59 PM
How is that not mind control?

Because it dictates their actions because the spell says that if you convince them they serve you, and that convincing them is done by an opposed Cha check. So if you win it, they actually want to do what you ask. Without Mind control, that's just their idea of something fun to do.

And as explained, both the Binding and the Magic Circle last 1 day/CL, so you can get your three wishes tomorrow if they are out.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 02:10 PM
And as explained, both the Binding and the Magic Circle last 1 day/CL, so you can get your three wishes tomorrow if they are out.

Oh, that's not at all the problem. The problem is that you can't be sure if they've ever bothered to wish for a Contingency-like effect (Anti-Magic Field upon entering the circle would be a fairly mild version).

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 02:16 PM
Oh, that's not at all the problem. The problem is that you can't be sure if they've ever bothered to wish for a Contingency-like effect (Anti-Magic Field upon entering the circle would be a fairly mild version).

1) If that's not the problem at all, why did you bring it up?

2) If he somehow managed to get the greater effect of a contingent AMF, he'd still be a weak creature primarily reliant on SLAs for offense and defense in an AMF. That seems like a really sure way of getting yourself killed.

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 02:17 PM
Oh, that's not at all the problem. The problem is that you can't be sure if they've ever bothered to wish for a Contingency-like effect (Anti-Magic Field upon entering the circle would be a fairly mild version).

1) If that's not the problem at all, why did you bring it up?

2) If he somehow managed to get the greater effect of a contingent AMF, he'd still be a weak creature primarily reliant on SLAs for offense and defense in an AMF. That seems like a really sure way of getting yourself killed.

I don't know why in your view Efreets should try so hard to get killed instead of giving out a couple wishes in return for some back.

It's almost like have some ulterior motive that makes you seek a specific goal instead of doing what makes sense for the Efreet.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 02:25 PM
1) If that's not the problem at all, why did you bring it up?


I didn't.



I don't know why in your view Efreets should try so hard to get killed instead of giving out a couple wishes in return for some back.

Getting Called and bound is a fast track towards getting killed. Who knows what commands the wizard will have? The safest thing to do would be to Wish for immunity to being Called. But as to whether Evil embodiments of Fire prefer revenge or safety...

hamishspence
2008-11-26, 02:27 PM
maybe because Wishes at 11th level are pretty much guaranteed to be unbalancing?

Interestingly, the other two types of genie for the four elements, written in Manual of the planes, only grant Limited wishes, even when their CRs are slightly higher.

since Efreet and Noble Djinn are almost unchanged from 3.0, maybe the writers of Manual of the Planes figured out that eleventh level characters upgraded with full Wishes wasn't a good idea.

Crow
2008-11-26, 02:38 PM
I didn't.


Getting Called and bound is a fast track towards getting killed. Who knows what commands the wizard will have? The safest thing to do would be to Wish for immunity to being Called. But as to whether Evil embodiments of Fire prefer revenge or safety...

It's a little ridiculous to assume that an Efreeti would implicitly trust "Tommy" to make all these wishes for him, but would not do the same for a wizard. Once you've given "Tommy" the trigger to fire off 3 wishes, having his sister held hostage is going to be less of a motivator. Why would you trust someone who's family you've threatened with that much power?

And again I ask, when a wizard gates in a chaotic evil being, do you have it turn upon the caster?

hamishspence
2008-11-26, 02:44 PM
strictly, gate rules prevent it, unless wizard ask for service that takes too long and creature can turn on him.

it is a long standing trope in D&D novels (and others) that Sorcery (defined back then as summoning of fiends) was very, very, risky. There was more limitations too- in novel, name of fiend was needed, if you wanted a specific one.

Riffington
2008-11-26, 02:48 PM
It's a little ridiculous to assume that an Efreeti would implicitly trust "Tommy" to make all these wishes for him, but would not do the same for a wizard. Once you've given "Tommy" the trigger to fire off 3 wishes, having his sister held hostage is going to be less of a motivator. Why would you trust someone who's family you've threatened with that much power?

He doesn't give Tommy a trigger. If Tommy says the wrong thing, he doesn't grant the wish. If Tommy says the right thing, he does.



And again I ask, when a wizard gates in a chaotic evil being, do you have it turn upon the caster?
Generally not. It's a 9th level spell with an XP cost. It's going to be a powerful spell.

arguskos
2008-11-26, 03:06 PM
And again I ask, when a wizard gates in a chaotic evil being, do you have it turn upon the caster?
Personally, I go with the way 2e did it: you need a protection from evil spell active, or yes, demons/devils/whatever might just decide that the puny mortal who though he could command primal evil forces looks DELICIOUS.

Note that I never do this without warning the caster before hand. However... if said caster ignores the warnings given in-game, they deserve to be eaten for their idiocy. Also note that the monster is going to take it's best chance to kill the caster, when that chance is given, so it's not stupid. Also note that if the caster has pro. evil active, then sweet, free commanding demons!! :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2008-11-26, 03:11 PM
He doesn't give Tommy a trigger. If Tommy says the wrong thing, he doesn't grant the wish. If Tommy says the right thing, he does.

Yeah dude, that's basically the Efreeti choosing to grant spells to himself, which they cannot do.

rampaging-poet
2008-11-26, 05:05 PM
Yeah dude, that's basically the Efreeti choosing to grant spells to himself, which they cannot do.

Not quite. Nowhere does it say that Efreet are forced to grant every wish they hear. However, one could argue that since the spell-like ability is to grant up to three wishes once per day, it would still be used up if Tommy were to wish for something Mr. Efreeti did want and then wish for something he didn't. If that were to happen, the first wish would go off and the second would not, though Mr. Efreeti still couldn't cast any more wishes that day.

Pretty much everything else I might say has already been covered by other people. Though efreet occaisionally don't mess with your wish, in most circumstances it's more likely that you'd win the lottery. If, for example, you were to save the efreeti's life, he'll probably reward you. However, if you sweep him off to another plane just as he's sitting down to dinner, he's going to be annoyed and make sure you regret it.

In general, what happens when another creature grants a wish for you what happens depends on the intent of the creature. The great wyrm gold dragon whose children you saved is going to be nice. She listens to your wish, then casts the wish spell and give you what you want. Anyone you've forced into granting a wish is, nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand, going to corrupt it.

If a magic item grants a wish, it will never mess with you (unless it's intelligent, in which case it's a creature and should be treated as such). If you stay within the limits of the spell, nothing bad will happen. If you try for a more powerful effect, the magic item does the best it can. Either the wish is partially granted (wish for 1 million gold gives 25,000), it comes true in a way that can be duplicated within the limits, or you've burned a charge but nothing happens at all. Also, I would imagine that unless an item was crafted by (or with the assistance of) a creature with wish as a spell-like ability, the item only has 5000 experiance points for each wish it can grant. No, things with wish X times/day don't stockpile XP if you leave them sitting for long enough.

If you're actually a high level caster and you grant yourself a wish, the spell functions exactly as written. Again, nothing can go wrong if you stay within the limits. If you try and go over the limits, your character realizes he's summoned more power than he can control. At that point, you have two options: you can cancel the spell, in which case the spell slot is burned up but nothing happens, or you can try keep going anyway, in which case it's your legalese vs. mine.

Of course most of this only applies to my own campaign. Everyone else is free to run their games however they want. However, these are the rules I run with.

Oslecamo
2008-11-26, 05:25 PM
Balors exist to be fought at level 20, Efferti's exist to be Wished from and negotiated with at level 8.


You sure do love to make things up, right? Surely all the other SLA of the efreeti and CR are just decoration. It exists solely to wait to be planar binded by the players. Hmm, I think that's just your very personal interpreatation, as the rest of your post.

Like already refered, efreetis live in a powerfull society. A society wich has the resources to protect their own. Like pesky wizards and clerics threatening efreetis of death.

Hoping that you're the first person who tried to start to ensalve the efreeti race, and expect that the race full of SLA and surely smarter than the normal humanoids the party is composed off never did anything to try to prevent such a thing, well, that goes against everything in the books.

Efreetis are smart. And powerfull. And they're evil. They're not going to let their own fall on the hands of adventurers trying to stop evil plans as easily as that.

Have fun with the hired bodyguard balor squad that pops up when you planar bind the efreeti. Since you think every monster out there is a mindless mass who'll do anything if you threaten them a little, I'm sure your character won't have any trouble with them.

Doomsy
2008-11-26, 05:39 PM
This snowballed fast. Honestly, it depends on how you want to interpret the Efreeti as either a NPC, a monster, a story hook, or a wish giving thing.

Me, I like things with depth so I go with the more complex interpretation: You're summoning a lawful evil being that is pretty smart to attempt to make it do something nice for you. This is inherently something that is fraught for opportunities for complication and fun. You can strip out complexity as suits you, the game is flexible like that, and run it like a hack 'n slash with summon efreet/get wish if you want, that is your choice. Not mine, but I'm not going to say it is a bad choice either if you like it. Just that the rules support *both* interpretations here as far as I can see.

Also, the intelligence level of the character is moot in D&D save for mechanical bonuses and some other purely mechanical issues. Any character acts as smart as the person playing it as a practical matter, and there is nobody on this board nearly as smart as the gray elf wizard with a 23+ intelligence. There are no rules by RAW that I am aware of that allows the DM to actually tell you that despite your characters intelligence your plan is stupid, or if you're being fooled by clever wording or wordplay in general. So technically, the only real difference in play in a contest of wits between a 22 intel character and a 12 intel efreeti (or any NPC) is, to put it bluntly, wits of the people playing them, not intelligence score comparisons.

Vinotaur
2008-11-26, 06:21 PM
You sure do love to make things up, right? Surely all the other SLA of the efreeti and CR are just decoration. It exists solely to wait to be planar binded by the players. Hmm, I think that's just your very personal interpreatation, as the rest of your post.

Like already refered, efreetis live in a powerfull society. A society wich has the resources to protect their own. Like pesky wizards and clerics threatening efreetis of death.

Hoping that you're the first person who tried to start to ensalve the efreeti race, and expect that the race full of SLA and surely smarter than the normal humanoids the party is composed off never did anything to try to prevent such a thing, well, that goes against everything in the books.

Efreetis are smart. And powerfull. And they're evil. They're not going to let their own fall on the hands of adventurers trying to stop evil plans as easily as that.

Have fun with the hired bodyguard balor squad that pops up when you planar bind the efreeti. Since you think every monster out there is a mindless mass who'll do anything if you threaten them a little, I'm sure your character won't have any trouble with them.

Wow, that's quite an Epic Strawman you have there. One might even say it's OVER 9000! feet tall.

Unfortunately, the base seems to be made entirely of false assumptions, and that's not good for a structure.

Zeful
2008-11-26, 06:29 PM
Just to point out Efreeti don't have the wish SLA. Noble Djinn do. And noble Djinn are 1% of the total population of Djinn. Good luck finding one.

Vexxation
2008-11-26, 06:37 PM
Just to point out Efreeti don't have the wish SLA. Noble Djinn do. And noble Djinn are 1% of the total population of Djinn. Good luck finding one.

Linky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)
Spell-Like Abilities

At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[10 Characters]