Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor and MitS vs Greenscale and Dusker

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs. Greenscale and Dusker

Map:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z83/Bitzeralisis/Arena%20Tournament%20Maps/Arena-Base-Map.gif
The Arena walls for this map are 30 ft high, with a Climb DC of 30. The pillars are 10 feet tall with a Climb DC of 20.



XP Award: 600 XP
GP Award: 600 GP

Bayar - Kor Battleborn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=42319)
Morbius - MitS (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=31356)
Greenscales - Talic (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=3565)
Dusker - theterran (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=3947)

All Combatants, please roll initiative.

[Talic]

Initiative: [roll0]

Reviewing purchases.

[theterran]

[roll0]

Also looking at purchases.

[Bayar]

Initiative: [roll0]

Wait for Morbius pls.

[Talic]

Sure thing, he's got at least 24 hours 'til any deadlines are reached, and I'm not in a huge rush. If my ally agrees, I don't mind givin him an extra day, even.

[theterran]

I don't care...Thanksgiving in the US is upon us, so I'll probably only be on sporadically for the next few days anyway...so no biggie.

[Morbius]

Waiting on m.... HECK THE MATCH HAS STARTED?

[roll0]

Buyings pending

[theterran]

I've bought a potion of Sheild of Faith...anything else I buy will depend on what others buy.

[Talic]

I think I'll start with a potion of enlarge person (250g)

[Morbius]

I think I'll start with a potion of enlarge person (250g)

Heh, I was actually thinking about buying one of these as well, but I am not sure

EDIT: I actually never picked a deity for MitS, do you guys mind if I do it now?

[Bayar]

Hmm...still debating with the little voices what to buy...

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo



EDIT: I actually never picked a deity for MitS, do you guys mind if I do it now?

Arena rules don't care what diety you worship. Worship yourself if you want.

[Morbius]

Hmm...still debating with the little voices what to buy...

I guess mine is one of those little voices :P


GM Kyeudo
Arena rules don't care what diety you worship. Worship yourself if you want.

I just don't wanted to have problems after I buy a potion of faith healing... but nevermind it then.(and yes I did think about getting 'Deity: Morbius' ><)

[Bayar]

I guess mine is one of those little voices :P



I just don't wanted to have problems after I buy a potion of faith healing... but nevermind it then.(and yes I did think about getting 'Deity: Morbius' ><)

Get diety Kyeudo. He grants wins !

Or Pun Pun. He grants martial weapon proficiency "Rules". because he uses thenm to beat everybody senseless.

[Talic]

Lemme know if y'all are buyin' anything else.

[Morbius]

Oh, sorry a potion of faith healing, one of shield of faith and 2 oils of obscuring mist and that's it unless you guys buy something else....

[Talic]

I don't believe Obscuring Mist can be made into an oil. For potions, the imbiber is the target. For oils, an object is the target. Obscuring mist has no target, thus cannot produce an effect when put into potion/oil form.

[Morbius]

I forgot about that... I should have realized that they were not in the list for a reason...

[Talic]

Fair nuff. Replacing it with anything else?

[Morbius]

I think I will buy two tanglefoot bags instead

[Talic]

Nice. I think I'll be good with nothing in response to that. Bayar? Terran?

[theterran]

I see no reason to buy anything else.

[Talic]

So long as Bayar's good, that gives Morbius the go-ahead to start this puppy off.

[Bayar]

I'll buy 2 alchemist fire. Dunno what else...

[Talic]

Sounds good so far. If you have any other purchases, we're all ears. :) Or flaming pyres. Whatever. :smallbiggrin:

[Bayar]

Dunno what else. Just Go.

[Morbius]

refs only
I said refs only...
Shaped Soulmelds:
rage claws

Manuevers readied:
Shadow blade technique
Burning blade
Counter Charge
Charging minotaur



Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 1

Refs and Bayar

ok Mits starts on B13 with a potion of shield of faith and loaded sling.
swift action to activate child of shadow stance.
standard to drink the potion.
free to drop the vial.
move action to go to B5 while trying to be stealth.
[roll0]
[roll1]

Also refs be warned that I will use the counter-charge manuever against any charge against me.


Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

Location: B5
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6)
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 10/10
Reactive rolls:
[roll2]
[roll3]

[Talic]

Greenscales, 2nd to act, Round 1:

Refs/Teammate only:
Start in Y13.
Move: to R14.
Ready: to Move, if an opponent does anything within LOS that would provoke an AoO, if I were threatening them.

Done.

Stats:
Location: R14
AC: 15 (+2 dex, +3 armor)
HP: 24/24
In Hand: Feather token (whip), gauntlet (worn)
Special Abilities available: Rage (unused)
Effects on self: None

[Bayar]

Kor - Round 1

Refs, MitS:
Start in A 15. Will follow MitS with sling in my hands, loaded with Alch fire.

Hide/MS:
[roll0]
[roll1]

Current location is in A5.

Done.

Stats:
HP: 21/21
AC: 15 T: 11 FF: 14
Rage ready
Speed: 40
Location A5
everything I have on sheet I carry with me.

[Morbius]

Just a second guys I think Bayar needs to fix something

Bayar

I don't think you can load an alchemist's fire on a sling(and apparently neither does Kyeudo

[Bayar]

Just a second guys I think Bayar needs to fix something

Bayar

I don't think you can load an alchemist's fire on a sling(and apparently neither does Kyeudo

Not even if I take -4 for non-projectile ?


EDIT:
K, I dont load my sling with fire. Only a normal rock.

[theterran]

So is it my turn yet?

[Talic]

Well, Bayar made a post, so unless a ref fires back, I'd say game on.

[Bayar]

Yes, it is your turn. I simply removed the conflicting part.

[theterran]

I'll get something posted in the next day or two. :smallsigh:

[theterran]

Dusker - Round 1

Actions:
Starting in Z14 w/ a potion of SoF in one hand and a Spiked Chain in the other, I will drink the Potion and move to T14.

End my Turn.

Stats:
Location: T14
HP: 17/17
AC: 20 Touch: 14 FF: 14
SoF (1/10)
Maneuvers:
Saphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Stone Bones, Clinging Shadow Strike

[Maurkov]

I think it's Morbius's turn. Are we back on the clock?

[Talic]

I think it'd be pretty crappy to enforce a clock this match, when we've ignored it like, 4 times now.

But yeah, I believe it's morbius, then me.

[Mavian]

*digs around in his pockets hunting for his whistle and official fedora*

High Ref Mav (if I'm still actually a ref :P Haven't checked lately)

People are still recovering from the holidays so lets let this go for awhile longer.

[Maurkov]

Yeah, I wasn't calling anything, just maybe re-starting the clock.

^ note the missing ref hat.

[Morbius]

It's my turn already!? o0 Sorry guys, I swear there was someone else before me

[Morbius]

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 2

Refs and Bayar

Mits continues to move to B1 drawing a tanglefoot bag.
Standard action to ready an action to fire his sling if anyone appears without cover.
[roll0]
Actually I won't roll hide as I don't have any cover :P


Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

Location: B1
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6), +3 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 9/10
Reactive rolls:
[roll1](this was supposed to be listen)
[roll2](this was supposed to be spot)
If that is a problem just roll it again

[Talic]

I'll post my turn sometime today, and we'll keep on keepin' on.

[Talic]

Sorry for delay.

Greenscales, Round 2:

Refs and Dusker:Quietly say to Dusker, "checking south and west. will shout if I find them, otherwise, will head to north."

Move: From R14 to K19.
Move: From K19 to H16, then H10. If I gain LOS, I will modify actions from that point.

Done.

[Bayar]

Kor - Round 2

For refs and MitS:
Moving to A1, Kor will ready an action to sling the first guy without cover.

Oh, and MS check...b/c my buddy is doing it, and also, will try to hide behind him...

MS: [roll0]
Hide: [roll1]
Edit: WTF ? :confused::cool::eek:



Done.

Stats:
HP: 21/21
AC: 15 T: 11 FF: 14
Rage ready
Speed: 40
Location A1
Wielding: Sling/Alch Fire

everything I have on sheet I carry with me.

[theterran]

Does that make me up?:smalleek:

[Talic]

Yes, though we've been 2 turns without LOS. It'd probably be a good idea to get it first.

[chilepepper]

High Ref chilepepper

*stretch*
"Now where did I put that hat? Aha, there it is. Now then."

Gonna rewind just a tad.

refs only
Spot for Greenscales at K19 seeing Kor at A5, DC 13 (4 hide, 9 distance)
[roll0]


More after the break.

[chilepepper]

High Ref chilepepper

We are now at Round 2, in the middle of Greenscales turn.

refs onlyOkay, first of all, positions for individuals are in their spoilers. That way you don't have to back track to reference.

Secondly, I am correcting bayar's hide check (see Kor's spoiler), even without the full speed penalty, Greenscales spot check of 22 blows the hide check out of the water. So it doesn't matter what starting square is used.

Greenscales
Upon arriving at K19, you are able to see Kor in A5. Point of reference, you both have cover from the top edge of the stairs at G/H 14.


Kor
A bit of clarification first. You stated starting in A15, outside of the red circle. I'll assume you meant A14. Even in that square, it's still a double move to A5 so your hide check is at -5.

You are hiding in A5, Hide = -1.
You see Greenscales enter K19 from the east. Point of reference, you both have cover from the top edge of the stairs at G/H 14.


Dusker
You are in T14. At this point, Greenscales is in K19.


Mits
You are in B1. You can only see Kor in A5.


Greenscales' turn.

[Talic]

Greenscales, Redux:

Any with LOS to Greenscales:
Ready an action:Move if anyone attempts to attack me.

Free:
Loud shout: somewhere near south central arena:
"I've made contact with the enemy!"

EDIT: Done.

[Bayar]

Will post actions later...forum has been in a mess for me :(

[Bayar]

Kor - Round 2 Redux

Hostile spotted ! - North westish

Any that have LOS to Kor:
Drop sling and flask, draw spiked chain.

Ready an action:
Move towards an enemy if that enemy does something that would trigger an AoO

End turn.

Stats:
HP: 21/21
AC: 15 T: 11 FF: 14
Rage ready
Speed: 40
Location A5
Wielding: Spiked chain

Crystals are on my MW spiked chain / Sungliin sry for missing info in the previous thread QQ

everything I have on sheet I carry with me.

[Talic]

That should make Dusker up.

[chilepepper]

High Ref chilepepper


Kor - Round 2 Redux
Stats:
Crystals are on my MW spiked chain / Sungliin sry for missing info in the previous thread QQ

bayar, refs
Your sungliin is not masterwork, therefore it cannot have a least weapon crystal.

LoS checks
KorPositions to those you can see hasn't changed.
MitSPositions to those you can see hasn't changed.
GreenscalesPositions to those you can see hasn't changed.
DuskerPositions to those you can see hasn't changed.

Whoever's up can go.

[chilepepper]

I think it'd be pretty crappy to enforce a clock this match, when we've ignored it like, 4 times now.

But yeah, I believe it's morbius, then me.

Should I enforce the clock now, having been over a week. I would just DQ Dusker and move on, but it's up to you folks, if anyone's still here. I suppose if nothing is said for a few days, I'll start the DQing.

[Morbius]

Just for the record I am still here, let's hope Dusker does show up soon.
About DQing... has anyone PMed him yet?

[Talic]

Well, if he's got it subscribed like I do, then he got an e-mail. If not... well, I'll try 1 on 2, if a DQ comes.

[Bayar]

Still here...mostly.

[Psionic Dog]

HighRef PsiDog

DQ issued on Dusker.

Tallic has posted interest in continuing 1 vs 2, so if he is still willing then Greenscales is now up.

[Talic]

Will post actions when I get off work and review match.

[Talic]

Any with LOS to Greenscales:Free: 5 foot step south into K20.

Now, if you still have LOS to me, look in here:
Standard: Activate Feather token: Whip - Do not release it to dance yet. (it is currently a huge leather whip with the dancing quality*, and will remain for 1 hour)
Move: Draw Potion of Enlarge Person.

Done.

Stats:
Location: K20
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand)
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 1/600.

*Relevant Text of Feather Token-Whip:
A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant Text of Dancing Weapon:
As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Psionic Dog]

Ok, just a quick LoS check to keep this moving. Thank's to Chilli for listing locations for the other refs.

@Refs, Kor, and Greenscale Never mind.
Unless objected to I'll be intruding improved cover when I drop in. Improved cover shall be issued whenever the LoS lines are so tight as to come down almost to line thickness and who's drawing them.

Further I'll adhoc rule (unless protested) that only the location of a character with improved cover can be seen, not what they are doing.

Characters with improved cover have double modifiers: +8AC, +4ref save, and +10 hide. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover)


Kor

You see Greenscale step back to K20 where he activates a feather-token whip and a draws a potion.

You both have cover relative to each other.

MitS is still in B1.


MitS

You see Kor in A5.

Greenscales

You can still see Kor in A5, and there is still cover between the two of you.

[Talic]

@Refs, Kor:Both adhoc rules are not supported by RAW. I'd prefer they be left out. As long as LOS as established, all characters should have knowledge of anything they would normally get.

There are few effects which grant improved cover (swimming targets have it vs landbound targets, for example), but when to grant it otherwise is too much a matter of opinion to adhoc rule it, and for the sake of impartiality, should likely be left out.

[Psionic Dog]

@Kor, Greenscale, High-Refs Nevermind.
My apologizes, I had intended the ruling to simplify the matter, not complicate it.

Explanation
Since RAW does allow improved cover to exist, and since this would have been described as 3/4 cover or even 5/6 cover under 3.0 rules I thought a "when in doubt go improved" would be acceptable.

My Logic (spoilered for space)

If we assume that Greenscale is at +10ft elevetion still, then LoS clearly exists.

Since Greenscale is standing on a stair square LoS is subjective already and depends on how thick the lines are and at what elevation the LoS ref decides to use. I used +7.5ft (3/4 of 10) and there was technically LoS, but another ref might have used +5ft where there would not be LoS.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x184/sublightrun/LoS.png

If there was only one ref calling, then (at least within the match) everything is subjectively consistent, but in this match there have been several refs who use different LoS methods for different results.

I thus attempted to 'Split the Difference' and rule Improved Cover.


If the Refs conclude that Improved Cover in not an option unless specifically specified in raw, then I would declare this: [LoS with Cover]


Match is Paused for a High Ref consultation.


EDIT
The Raw is stupid.
ALL Honor the RAW!

After a brief meditation on the founding principles of the Arena everything suddenly makes perfect sense. The original LoS update has been edited and revised.

Play on!

[Talic]

@Kor, Refs: Nevermind While I agree the ruling has common sense, it's not RAW. RAW does not establish a method for ruling Improved cover. Instead, it gives a few specific instances in spells and terrain that establish them.

In the absence of a SRD rule that grants improved cover, I merely wish to keep that status quo.

EDIT: Per above ref reversal, play is amended and free to continue.

[Talic]

Posting a courtesy post to alert my opponents that the match has resumed (as the hold was taken off by an edit, it may not show up as having any activity in a subscription log).

[Morbius]

I believe it's Bayar now right?

[Talic]

Barring a crazy readied action or delayed initiative, yes.

[Psionic Dog]

High Ref PsiDog


DQ #2 Issued on Kor!

Morbius, your MitS is now up.

[Morbius]

Sorry, I've been sick but I should post later if I am feeling better

[Talic]

Fair nuff. Lemme know when you're feeling well.

[Morbius]

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 3

Refs

Mits stays in B1.
Standard action to ready an action to throw a tanglefoot bag when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he has .


Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

Location: B1
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6), +3 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 8/10
Reactive rolls:
[roll0]
[roll1]

[Talic]

My Actions: (2nd to act, round 3)

Move: Put up potion.
Move: from K20 to G22 (by way of L21), Drawing Guisarme as I move (drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move, if you have a BAB of +1 or higher.)

Done.

Stats:Location: G22
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Relevant text of Feather Token: A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant text of Dancing Weapon:As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Psionic Dog]

HighRef PsiDog

LoS Check

Ref Notes
My Lucky Happy Day. They didn't have Los before and have only moved apart. No attacks worries over the whip, and the only person who needs a listen check (MitS) has already rolled (and failed).

I wish all LoS checks were this easy. :smallcool:


MitS(ww)

No LoS


Greenscale

No LoS

[Morbius]

rant(not for you talic, well it's about you but you can't read it yet)
Well, am I way underprepared to face Talic alone, had I know this it would be different items, and manuevers... heck Charging minotaur is nearly useless against him and counter-charge may do more harm than good, I wish I had sudden leap and distracting ember instead...well, he beats Mits at tripping and grappling, but Mits beats him at damage...(I think), I actually have about 50%+ chance for a 1 hit KO if I hit him good..., that is if I get past his crazy reach and even crazier readied actions that will trip, grapple and the hell with Mits... hum but after a lot of thinking... but after thinking for a couple of hours maybe there are still a couple of tricks that I can use... or it may be a more direct approach in the end...
Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 4

Refs

Mits moves to A9.(that reactivates the concealment).
If no LOS: standard action to ready an action to throw a tanglefoot bag when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he wields.
[roll=MS]1d20-1[roll/]

Oh and for the record I will use counter charge if he does charge me


Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

Location: A9
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6), +3 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 7/10
Reactive rolls:
[roll0]
[roll1]

[Talic]

I warrant Rants now? Woo! I will rant too! (no peeky!)
Just kidding, he's an all around good guy. I think I have an advantage here... So he's gonna be a ready action monkey, and wait for me to close, and then do something. If I have reach, that'll keep him from attacking. He can conceal, meh, not much to do against that but hope... God, he hits hard. I've got more reliable damage though. Let's see how this works. Time to hunt for getting LOS.

My Turn:Dependant on no LOS. If LOS established, actions will change.

Move: from G22 to D14 (50 ft)
Standard: Release whip to dance. (1/4)
Free: Grip Guisarme in 2 hands.

Done, depending on LOS.

Stats:Location: G22
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Relevant text of Feather Token: A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant text of Dancing Weapon:As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.[/QUOTE]

[Psionic Dog]

We get rants?

Ok, Ref Only Rant
I was hoping someone else would reconcile this round. I really was. And, for any other match I'd keep waiting for someone else. In fact, I'm still hoping someone will appear to handle this whip monstrosity.

Ok: We have Greenscale carrying (but not welding) a huge magical whip.

The distinction is important since Mits has a readied action
when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he wields.

That is, if the whip really has a reach of 45 ft.


If the whip does have a reach of 45 ft then GS is suddenly standing 15 ft inside the whip range and 10 ft outside of glave range of Mits, neither of which equates his 5 ft outside of reach stipulation.

And a quick question for Talic and other Refs:
How, exactly, do you figure this whip has a reach of 45 ft?

Yes, I realize a huge creature welding a whip has a 45 ft reach.

However, I can't think of anything in Raw the even suggests a smaller creature welding the oversized weapon has the same reach, dancing or not. In fact, one could argue that by raw all dancing weapons are limited to adjacent (for non reach) or up to 10ft for reach.

For that matter, it seems that if we are real sticky on RAW then, dancing or not, only a large or larger creature could even use the feather token whip since no exceptions are listed to the oversized weapon limitations.

[Morbius]

Technicaly I am an ref but I guess I can't read that

[Talic]

@Psionic:I cannot wield the whip. It's 2 size categories too large for me to wield. Right now it's being held, not wielded. Same as my polearm. It's a 2 handed weapon, being held 1 handed.

That said, when dancing, I am not wielding it. It is wielding itself.


As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.


A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon.

It is considered wielded by me for all maneuvers and effects which target items. If Reach were a maneuver or an effect which targeted items, then yes, it would have a reach of 15 feet while dancing. (Disarm would be a good example of an application of this, as would spells which target items.) Similarly, if I was holding it and drank a potion of enlarge, it would grow to gargantuan. As soon as I released it to dance, however, it would return to Huge, because the enlarge isn't targeting the item.

However, it has no wielder while dancing. It wields itself. So it doesn't matter whether I'm a halfling or a cloud giant. My personal size is irrelevant.

Now, if your interpretation is that while dancing, it still has the reach of a standard whip, and the additional size is only to provide it grapple modifiers, per the text of the feather token, then while dancing, it would have a 15 foot reach. However, either way, a medium creature cannot wield a huge weapon, so I'll be unable to use it unless it's dancing. But I believe I interpreted the two effects (dancing weapons in general and the feather token's specific changes to that) at closely as possible to RAW. Whether I can wield a weapon has no impact on whether I can activate its abilities. For example, I can use the Wish in a Luck Blade, regardless of whether I'm able to pick it up. Dancing is a similar ability.

That said, there is some RAW support for the 15 foot interpretation, as well. Dancing weapons state that they can attack adjacent foes, and weapons with reach can attack foes up to 10 feet away. Whips have exceptional reach (15 feet), standard. It could be ruled that all dancing weapons, regardless of size, have this reach limitation. Thus, a Huge creature wielding a Huge dancing weapon who lets it dance would have a weapon with 5-10-15 feet, based on the reach of the weapon.

Note, in all above arguments against it, the size of the character is irrelevant. Either the weapon wields itself, and has a reach commensurate with its size, or the weapon wields itself and has a reach identical to a medium sized weapon of its type, regardless of size. Either way, I will not be wielding the weapon, so the size difference between the whip and myself is irrelevant.

Now, it's also possible to interpret the feather token as wielding itself at all times. I chose, however, to go with a more narrow interpretation (just like a dancing weapon), and apply the dancing weapon's duration on dancing, and time delays between dancing.

If the size of a weapon is ruled to be irrelevant to its reach while it's wielding itself, dancing, it will have a 15 foot reach, and still be unwieldable by medium creatures while not dancing. My interpretation is that the whip is huge. It's wielding itself. Something huge wielding a huge weapon = reach as standard for a huge weapon.

Either way, I'm leaving myself open with my reach if he's using a reach weapon, and has a readied action to close with me. I'm not capable of an attack with any of the weapons I'm holding while moving, and as such am limited to my standard unarmed strike. Provided he doesn't have such a readied action, I fully intend to have full reach when my turn ends.

I can only assume the reluctance in ruling combined with the pointed questions about the whip 2 turns after I originally posted it means that it matters now, and hence, LOS is established. As I can infer this, I won't ask for a rewind to amend actions, but I will request to be able to modify any movement from the point LOS is established onward, as is standard in the arena.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo -Yes, I'm still alive.

@Refs

From my understanding of the RAW, the feather token is legitamitly wielded by Greenscales, so that's not the problem.
The RAW do not specify the reach of the feather token as being different from normal, so I'm forced to go back to the definition of reach, which is as a multiplier of the creature's own natural reach. A medium creature wielding a large longspear has the same reach as a medium creature wielding a medium longspear. The Whip, although larger than normal, still has the same reach as a whip wielding by a creature of Greenscales current size.

[Talic]

@Kyeudo, Refs:Assuming the above is having to do with the feather token, do I have access to Kyeudo's spoiler?

[Psionic Dog]

The GM Ref has spoken, and spoken well.


GreenScale: Includes Edits inside.
You may read Kyeudo's spoiler.

A summery of the ruling: Feather Tokens are legal items that may be used, but use the reach of the welder, 15 ft.

Now the actually LoS:
EDIT: My deepest apologizes on the LoS. I could have sworn your action said "Dependent on LoS established, will amend if no LoS"

When you Reach F22 you see MitS(ww) in A9. He looks lightly shrouded in clinging shadow and appears somewhat indistinct. Aka: has concealment.

MitS(ww) has an action readied.



EDIT: Debate Continues

[Talic]

@Refs, Kyeudo:Only weapons may be wielded. The token is not a weapon, thus may not be wielded. When activated, it becomes a whip, which may be wielded. However, according to RAW:


Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

This is a Huge Whip. I am a Medium creature. It is a 1 handed melee weapon. As there are two size categories difference, it would be changed to a two handed weapon, and then up another category. By this, I cannot wield a whip two sizes larger than me.

That doesn't mean that I cannot activate it, however. There is no requirement by RAW that I must wield a weapon to use it. Indeed, where requirements exist at all for magic item activation, they simply require holding it, not being able to bring it to bear as a weapon.

When this happens, per RAW text the weapon wields itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#whip). By the stated text of the item, I am not wielding it when it dances.

What is the reach of a huge weapon that is wielding itself, by RAW? I accept that while not dancing, the weapon is a very, very large... well, waste of space. But while dancing, I am not wielding it. My size is irrelevant. By RAW, the wielder of the whip is the Whip. If I were considered the wielder, it wouldn't work at all, by previously cited text on inappropriately sized weapons. Since I must assume that the items printed in the SRD are designed primarily for use by medium sized creatures, that interpretation is not only directly against the RAW for the item, but also highly counterintuitive.

Now, an argument could be made that the specific text of dancing weapons would indicate a 15 foot reach, regardless of weapon size, while dancing. However, while dancing, the weapon is still wielding itself.

FURTHER, my actions were specifically stated as being contingent upon no LOS, and if LOS was established, I would amend them. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5974809&postcount=76) By my calculations, LOS should have been established as I entered F22. This should mean that my turn should continue from that point.

Player hold on match, pending high ref/Kyeudo review.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

@Talic,Refs

With a dancing weapon, it does the wielding, but your stats still are used for determining things like Strength to damage, AC, and such. This includes your reach. The whip's reach is the same as if you were the one wielding it, which for a medium creature is the 15 feet.

[Talic]

Fair nuff. Match resumes, I take it, with LOS established between my opponent in A9, and myself in F22.

Provided this is correct, I need one more piece of information. What items are in MitS:ww's hands?

Currently, I'm hefting a tree-trunk of a whip over one shoulder, and holding a Guisarme one-handed in the other arm.

[Morbius]

I have a loaded sling on one hand and a bag of something on the other, but wait a minute, did I beat your hide check this turn or what? because I was supposed to have LOS to F22 at the start of my turn... Nevermind I guess we are rewinding to your turn...

[Talic]

Ok, so ranged weapon and bag. No greatsword, at least.

Continue my move action to D18.
Ready an action: Move if my opponent does performs any action that would provoke an attack of opportunity.

Intent: is to move adjacent to him. Due to timing of readied actions, I'll arrive beside him immediately before the triggering action, and thus he'll provoke an AoO from me. This is an attempt to get off an attack without the benefit of his concealment.

Done.

Stats:Location: D18, Readied action.
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Feather token:
So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

While it dances, I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. While dancing it has a reach of 15 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -2 to attack for size, and another -4 for non-proficiency).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Talic]

And yeah, we backed up to the point LOS was established, which, since I was only 5 feet east of there, was most of my turn.

EDIT: On the bright side, barring rules controversy, there shouldn't need to be much more ref involvement. One less step in the turn chain, woo.

[Talic]

Just posting to let my opponent know it's his turn. My turn is contained in post 87.

[Morbius]

What's the reach of that pretty little whip?

[Talic]

When it's dancing, 15 feet (reach is calculated for a whip wielded by a medium creature).

When it's hefted over my shoulder, it's not able to be wielded by medium size creatures, and so, has no reach at all. (huge 1 handed weapons are treated as larger than 2 handed to a medium creature, and thus, unwieldable)

Not to mention by RAW, Whips cannot make Attacks of Opportunity... Which is what I think you're trying to figure out.

[Morbius]

So... a ready action... I am guessing it's one of those If he does anything inclusing readying an action I will do this and win the game ¬¬, ok let's see if this springs the trap...

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 5


Mits fires his sling (stupid range increment... was that on purpose?)
[roll0]
[roll1]
Then (if no ready action happens) Mits moves to C2.

Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

Location: C2(probably)
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +2 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +2 28xsling (1d4+6), +2 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 6/10
Reactive rolls:

[Talic]

The range was to put you out of range to reach me with a single move action. I was trying to entice a charge.

Well, the action that triggered was "any action listed as provoking an AoO", which your range attack fulfills.

The action to perform is Move. I move to B9.
Your ranged attack then continues, provoking an AoO.

I choose to use my AoO to Trip. (I threaten at 5 feet with an unarmed strike)

Melee Touch Attack (no AoO, I have improved trip): [roll0] vs AC 11
If hit, Opposed Check: [roll1] (Str check + 4 for improved trip) vs your Str or Dex check, whichever's better.

If successful trip, then Improved trip grants me a free attack. I choose unarmed strike:

Attack: [roll2] (+4 bonus for prone target) vs AC 11
If Hit: [roll3]
If threat: [roll4]
If Crit: [roll5]

If Unarmed strike hits, Scorpion's Grasp triggers, granting me a free grapple check to enter a grapple (much like improved grab).

Opposed Grapple check: [roll6]
If won, unarmed strike damage: [roll7]

Assuming that the trip, the attack, and the grapple all succeed, the ranged attack is now illegal. If any fail, then the ranged attack can go through as normal.

[Talic]

By my calculations, you can't prevent the trip, and the unarmed strike hits. That leaves the grapple check.

[Morbius]

How fortunate... I only need a nat 20 to equal that trip check... actually nevermind, I believe that a tie would go to the one with the bigest modifier, so I already lost that one...

Hum let's try the grapple then IF I beat that I still have some chance to win this

[roll0]


EDIT: So, if I understand everything now I still have a full round of actions?

[Talic]

Well, the action that started my AoO was legally initiated. I'm not entirely sure if you get that. I know for a fact you still have the move action.

The SRD is kinda silent on the issue, though. For the sake of fair play, I'll say sure, take the full round of actions.

You're currently prone and grappled.

[Morbius]

Now I was thinking about how to win... and I though: let's see if I try to break the grapple you will just stablish it easily again and I won't even touch you... if I simply continue to grapple you will have too much of an edge then I though what stops me from using a manuever on you? A manuever is an attack, I can attack with a unarmed strike at -4 penalty without needing to roll grapple checks... then I remembered... prone ¬¬ for a total of -8 penalty even if that would be valid... but still, a manuever that increases unarmed attack damage will work on grappling right? Well let the rules lawyering begin...


Int the meantime

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 6

Swift action to activate brute gauntlets and use all charges

Then Mits attempts to punch you in the face
[roll0]
[roll1]

I will post stats later

[Talic]

Well, Opposed check. [roll0]
Here's hoping I didn't just lose all my teeth.

EDIT: AND... I did. 12 damage, to the face.

[Talic]

Assuming that makes it my turn...
I was really hoping you'd leave the grapple. That would have given me another trip / punch / grapple combo.

Free action: Rage
Standard action: Grapple check to deal damage.
[roll0]
If Won: [roll1]

Relevant Stats:
HP: 16 / 28
AC: 13 (+3 armor +2 dex -2 Rage)
Grapple modifier: +14
Status effects: Rage 1/9

[Morbius]

Ah, yes rage, I was sure that would be kicking in by now. So, does your lack of reply to using manuevers while grappling means you make no objection?


[roll0]


Mits’ Stats

Location: A9
HP: 2/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16 (prone penalties not added)
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +2 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +2 28xsling (1d4+6), +2 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 0/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: shield of faith 5/10
Reactive rolls:



EDIT: Really the dice gods are not in my side on this match...

[Talic]

As long as the maneuver doesn't do things that aren't allowed in a grapple (such as movement, etc), then I'm cool with it. If it's an attack roll, it'd take the -4 penalty for attacking in a grapple though.

That should, however, put you up to 28 damage. Rageclaws keepin you up, barely.

[Morbius]

Mits mind almost leaves his body after the last punch, however he somehow grit his teeth and remains fighting
"I may be without my sword, but my body is also my weapon! And you shall now prove my most powerful attack!"
Saying that Mits concentrates his hatred on his right fist causing it become engulfed in flames at the same time a cold aura surrounds his left fist
"Ultimate Fire and Ice Attack"


Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 6(previous post was actually round 5 redux)

Mits uses a swift action to activate Burning blade and a standard to activate Shadow blade technique

[roll0](-4 from prone, -4 from grappling)
[roll1]

[roll2]

plus if both hit(yeah right)
[roll3]

plus if at least one hit
[roll4]


Mits’ Stats

Location: A9
HP: -2/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16 (prone penalties not added)
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +2 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +2 28xsling (1d4+6), +2 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 0/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: shield of faith 4/10
Reactive rolls:

[Morbius]

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek:
Did I just won?:smallamused:

[Talic]

It does appear to be so, yes. You needed both hits, or my +14 grapple would have downed you next round, just before I passed out.

The loss was primarily due to player error, I believe (regardless of the luck of those rolls, lol). I should have raged before readying an action. That would have been an extra 4 damage.

Still, well played. I don't see a mistake in your actions, and I knew more or less what was coming when I agreed to the maneuvers. I just didn't expect such stellar performance with a -8 to hit. LOL, them's the breaks.

[Psionic Dog]

HighRef PsiDog

Match Call:

MitS(ww) is the winner.