Can Belkar beat Bozzak and Crystal? (Spoilers, I guess?)

[hungryLIKEALION]

I started this thread so we could try to predict whether or not Belkar can defeat Bozzak and Crystal. My personal opinion is that yes, I believe he should be able to. The way I see it is this;

Belkar comes up on Bozz and Crystal, with Crystal about to kill Haley. (Maybe having just killed her, I can't say how that will turn out, but I like to think she won't have killed her yet.) Belkar enters a rage and I'm going to assume that with a full attack action (He should be able to approach her in a surprise round since they won't be expecting anyone to come up on them) he can probably take her down in one round. He's at least 11th level ranger so he will have greater two weapon fighting and Crystal's armor class HAS to suck with how she doesn't wear armor. Also, since Crystal's hit dice are all d6s and she doesn't look like she has a great con score, I think it's safe to assume a raging Belkar can take her down in the 6 attacks he will get. Then with the Cleric there to cure him and help with flanking Bozz or just hitting him with inflict spells, the two should be able to beat Bozz in 2-3 rounds since Bozz won't be able to utilize his sneak attack.

What do you guys think? Does anyone have any good numbers to plug? I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks, but I think Belkar has a good chance, despite his lower level that Bozzak.

[Zevox]

In theory, I agree, he should be able to. Bozzok, while higher level than Belkar, almost has to be a pure Rogue to have enough levels to sneak attack Haley and be of a sane sub-epic level, which significantly hinders his fighting prowess given Rogues get mediocre BAB, low hp, and no particularly good combat-useful class abilities outside of sneak attack. If Belkar can take Crystal down quick, which should be possible unless she has an unusually high constitution or has some levels in a tougher class than Rogue/Assassin, he has a good shot at taking down Bozzok, simply by virtue of being a Ranger/Barbarian vs a pure Rogue. The fact that Bozzok is using a weapon that does much more damage than Belkar's (medium bastard sword 1d10 vs small daggers 1d3 each, with the bastard sword getting extra damage if used two-handed and Belkar getting only half his strength boost on the off-hand dagger... yeah) may be an issue though, particularly if it comes down to a 1-on-1.

With the Cleric along, his odds are significantly higher. Presumably, Loki being an evil God, the Cleric casts inflict spells spontaneously, which will be fantastic vs Crystal and Bozzok, given Crystal's obviously abysmal wisdom and the fact that Rogues have terrible will saves in general. Plus any healing spells he has prepared will be a great boon, and who knows what other tricks he may have in his repertoire.

The main problem will be if Belkar fails to sneak up on them, doesn't take Crystal out quickly (or goes for Bozzok first), and the Cleric either fails to help him or gets taken out quickly himself. If Crystal and Bozzok get to double-team Belkar, especially if they flank him, he's in deep, deep trouble. Even with them being Rogues, he'd be up against one enemy who is about his level, and one who is likely 4 levels above him, and both are a size category larger than him. Not a favorable fight from any perspective, and it only gets worse if they get to sneak attack him.

Zevox

[amanamana]

What if Belkar has to enter in rage to defeat them, take enough damage that, even with the cleric healing him during the fight, he ends up alive only by virtue of the increased con and end up dying? That would be a total badass way of fullfilling the prophecy: killing these totally dangerous foes at the same time!:smalleek:

[hungryLIKEALION]

What if Belkar has to enter in rage to defeat them, take enough damage that, even with the cleric healing him during the fight, he ends up alive only by virtue of the increased con and end up dying? That would be a total badass way of fullfilling the prophecy: killing these totally dangerous foes at the same time!:smalleek:Correct me if I'm wrong, but a believe a barbarian can only keep raging past death if they become a frenzied berserker prestige class and acheive level 10 in said prestige class. However, if I am wrong, then yeah, that'd be a cool way for him to go. But I don't think he'll be dying in this fight, I still think Rich wouldn't have wasted so much time building up Belkar's character over the last few strips if he was going to die already.

[Flame of Anor]

What Amanamana means is not that Belkar would lose all his hit points and keep fighting, but that he would lose so many that when his Con goes down at the end of his rage he would die. This is a perfectly valid scenario, needs no feats, and I think it's even mentioned in the PHB.

[Tass]

Belkar migth also draw Crystal and Bozzak away from Haley, letting the cleric heal her.

Once Haley is up again she could join the figth.

[kerberos]

In theory, I agree, he should be able to.

Theory has nothing to do with it. Belkar will win because he's the living breathing incarnation of Awesome. :smallcool:

[hungryLIKEALION]

What Amanamana means is not that Belkar would lose all his hit points and keep fighting, but that he would lose so many that when his Con goes down at the end of his rage he would die. This is a perfectly valid scenario, needs no feats, and I think it's even mentioned in the PHB.Oh, yeah, I see what you mean now. My bad, I misunderstood.

I'm also inclined to agree with kerberos, ;p

[pendell]

TBH, no, I don't think Belkar can win the fight unaided. He tends to lag behind the rest of the order in experience and has to work to stay on par with them.

So figure Bozzak is 4 levels higher than him also.

1v1, Bozzak will beat him. Plus, there's crystal, who's right at Belkar's level.

However, Belkar won't be fighting this fight alone.

He's backed up by nameless cleric and by a lightning-throwing sorceress Sylph.

In addition, if Bozzak and crystal can be distracted for a round or two, Sylvia can slip a potion of healing into Haley and put her back in the fight also.

That gives us Haley, Belkar, un-named Cleric, and Sylvia versus a 17th-level rogue and a 13th-level rogue.

My gut says this is an even match, and Belkar's pure awesomeness will tip the scale.

How much do you wanna bet Sylvia loses her innocence and actually kills someone this time around?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[raphfrk]

How much do you wanna bet Sylvia loses her innocence and actually kills someone this time around?


Even worse if she does it in order to save Belkar.

For example, Bozzak is the last man standing after knocking out Belkar and is preparing to land the killing strike when Celia uses lightning to remove his last few hps.

She would be indirectly also saving Haley, though.

I do think she would provide backup for Belkar and is not likely to stay hidden if he attacks. Ofc, she might panic and do nothing, letting Bozzak kill Belkar and Haley.

Also, the predictions that Belkar will die and will breath his last breath don't necessarily have to refer to the same event. He could die (and be rezzed) and then at some later point have something done to him that prevents him breathing anymore. Ofc, death seems like the most obvious way to make someone stop breathing.

[Euron]

Who's Sylvia?

[Ron Miel]

Sure he can beat them.

With a mouthful of moonshine, he turns himself into a living flamethrower. That should even the odds a little.

[Ron Miel]

Who's Sylvia?

Presumably he mixed up Celia and Sylph.

[Ravens_cry]

Who's Sylvia?
The woman with wings and white hair.

[SinsI]

Well, if Bozzak has no Consitution bonuses, he has something like 60 hp.
Belkar has six attacks per round with ~ +13 to damage...
If he distructs Crystal first (shouldn't be so hard, as we've already seen. Maybe use Scratchy to do it), then Bozzak can't flank and sneak attack him - in a couple rounds everything would be over. Plus he can do hit-and-run tactic - that Barbarian bonus to movement is very useful.

[SPoD]

So figure Bozzak is 4 levels higher than him also.

1v1, Bozzak will beat him.

I disagree. A 17th-level rogue vs. a 12th-level ranger/1st-level barbarian in a melee confrontation? If Bozzok doesn't have a flanker, Belkar is at least equal if not superior.

Tale of the Tape:
Base Attack Bonus: Belkar +13, Bozzok +12. Winner: Belkar, especially since he gets a +1 size bonus to attack, too.
Attacks per Round: Belkar 5, Bozzok 3. Winner: Belkar
Base Damage per Attack: Belkar 1d3, Bozzok 1d10. Winner: Bozzok
Average Hit Points (Before Con bonus): Belkar 64, Bozzok 62. Winner: Call it a Tie
Armor Class: Unknown; Bozzok has a buckler, but Belkar has a +1 size bonus. Neither seems to wear armor, but they might count as leather or cloth or something. Bozzok likely put his best stat into Dexterity, but Belkar gets a halfling racial bonus to it. Winner: Tie
Strength Bonus: Unknown, but Belkar is a primary melee fighter, while Bozzok probably put his best stat into Dexterity. On the other hand, Belkar is a halfling and Bozzok is a half-orc, so... Winner: Tie
Magic Items: Bozzok may have the wealth of the entire Thieves' Guild, but he's still an NPC; Belkar has level-appropriate PC wealth. Winner: Belkar

But the most important factor is this:
Loyalty: Belkar has Mr. Scruffy and a cleric who gains no benefit from Belkar dying; Bozzok has a bunch of thieves from whom he has been taking 50% of their profits for years AND who would all get a promotion if he dies. Winner: Belkar, in a knock-out.

[pendell]

The woman with wings and white hair.

Correct. I meant Celia. Memory playing tricks on me. Mumble mumble kids these days ..

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

I disagree. A 17th-level rogue vs. a 12th-level ranger/1st-level barbarian in a melee confrontation? If Bozzok doesn't have a flanker, Belkar is at least equal if not superior.

Tale of the Tape:
Base Attack Bonus: Belkar +13, Bozzok +12. Winner: Belkar, especially since he gets a +1 size bonus to attack, too.
Attacks per Round: Belkar 5, Bozzok 3. Winner: Belkar
Base Damage per Attack: Belkar 1d3, Bozzok 1d10. Winner: Bozzok
Average Hit Points (Before Con bonus): Belkar 64, Bozzok 62. Winner: Call it a Tie
Armor Class: Unknown; Bozzok has a buckler, but Belkar has a +1 size bonus. Neither seems to wear armor, but they might count as leather or cloth or something. Bozzok likely put his best stat into Dexterity, but Belkar gets a halfling racial bonus to it. Winner: Tie
Strength Bonus: Unknown, but Belkar is a primary melee fighter, while Bozzok probably put his best stat into Dexterity. On the other hand, Belkar is a halfling and Bozzok is a half-orc, so... Winner: Tie
Magic Items: Bozzok may have the wealth of the entire Thieves' Guild, but he's still an NPC; Belkar has level-appropriate PC wealth. Winner: Belkar

But the most important factor is this:
Loyalty: Belkar has Mr. Scruffy and a cleric who gains no benefit from Belkar dying; Bozzok has a bunch of thieves from whom he has been taking 50% of their profits for years AND who would all get a promotion if he dies. Winner: Belkar, in a knock-out.

Okay, I stand corrected. Belkar will probably win 1v1.

But as it turns out, Bozzak *does* have a flanker.

I still say even matchup between two high level rogues on one side and SSGOW + cleric + Sorceress sylph + high-level rogue with one healing potion in her.

There's also one thing tale of the tape doesn't take into account: Bozzak is very intelligent and resourceful; he should be able to play significantly above the raw numbers.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SinsI]

Base Attack Bonus: Belkar +13, Bozzok +12. Winner: Belkar, especially since he gets a +1 size bonus to attack, too.
Attacks per Round: Belkar 5, Bozzok 3. Winner: Belkar
Strength Bonus: Unknown, but Belkar is a primary melee fighter, while Bozzok probably put his best stat into Dexterity. On the other hand, Belkar is a halfling and Bozzok is a half-orc, so... Winner: Tie

Belkar has six attacks per round - three main hand, three offhand from Combat Style Mastery;
Strength-wise he gets an additional bonus from Barbarian Rage, and don't forget racial enemy that can give up to +6.

[Yoyoyo]

Excluding support, its a fairly even match between Belkar and Bozz, and I doubt that Bozz will stand toe-to-toe with Belkar. Bozz has shown himself to be fairly clever (e.g., sneak attacked Haley when he could have just fought her), so I doubt he will ignore all the advantages he has in a fight with Belkar.

But I think Bozz is the only one going down, with Crystal escaping. In the same way that Crystal gains a level whenever Haley does, Crystal cannot be killed by Belkar. She should die at the hands of Haley or, if she is dead and not rezzed, then Elan can avenge her.

And there is the chance that Elan and Durkon may come back. If that happens, Crystal and Bozz survive because they will just turn tail and run.

[SPoD]

Okay, I stand corrected. Belkar will probably win 1v1.

But as it turns out, Bozzak *does* have a flanker.

Which is why I mentioned Loyalty. Will Crystal stand and fight, or turn on him for a shot at a promotion? We don't know. (No other flankers but Crystal count here, by the way, because Belkar can kill anyone else in the Thieves' Guild with one hit.)


I still say even matchup between two high level rogues on one side and SSGOW + cleric + Sorceress sylph + high-level rogue with one healing potion in her.

+housecat. :wink: And I agree with that. I just didn't agree that Bozzok by himself was a threat. Only with a dependable flanker is a rogue a credible melee threat, even one who is several levels higher.


There's also one thing tale of the tape doesn't take into account: Bozzak is very intelligent and resourceful; he should be able to play significantly above the raw numbers.

True, but dramatically, we should expect Belkar to play the game at a significantly higher level than we are used to seeing. This is his moment to prove that he's not just mindless slaughter, so I would expect to see him put his brain to good use.

[DigoDragon]

I was under the impression that Belkar doesn't have to beat them to save the girls, he just has to outsmart them, but I guess we'll see. :smallsmile:

[SPoD]

Belkar has six attacks per round - three main hand, three offhand from Combat Style Mastery;
Strength-wise he gets an additional bonus from Barbarian Rage, and don't forget racial enemy that can give up to +6.

You are correct about the attacks per round, my mistake.

I don't think Belkar would rage against Bozzok because it would lower his AC, but he might. However, I really don't think Belkar has Orcs as a favored enemy; he likely has Humans, Kobolds, and Goblins. That would help him against Crystal, but not Bozzok.

[Thant]

I don't know, but even with lightning shooting sylph air support and a bad ass cleric inflict-some-serious-spells-of-Loki dude, I think that this is still a blind shot at Bozzak for Belkar. Even if they get Haley's range artillery support up and running while Belkar is messing up with Bozz and Crys, I believe that their chances are real low. Because after seeing what the villains of this comic (Kubota, Nale, Xykon) are able to put up against the Order, who knows what is Bozz hiding up his sleeve. And he is not the LEADER of the thieves guild for nothing. My prays are with Belkster, but I'm still afraid for his well being:smalleek:

[RMS Oceanic]

Short of some "Belkar's too late to save Haley" thing, I can easily see him getting Haley healed then taking on Bozzak by himself, leaving Haley to resume her deathmatch with Crystal.

[SinsI]

I don't think Belkar would rage against Bozzok because it would lower his AC, but he might. However, I really don't think Belkar has Orcs as a favored enemy; he likely has Humans, Kobolds, and Goblins. That would help him against Crystal, but not Bozzok.
If Bozzok is half-orc (and half-human) he counts as both.

[hamishspence]

strictly, no. There is a feat that enables half-orcs/half-elves to count as human for feats, (and Favoured enemy) in Races of Destiny, but default rule is they count as elves and orcs, not humans.

[SPoD]

If Bozzok is half-orc (and half-human) he counts as both.

No, he doesn't. Not according to 3.5 rules. There is a feat he could take that would allow him to count as both, but it is not the default state.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[clik]

Obviously story takes precedent over combat statistics all the time, since characters PC and NPC get dropped by far fewer attacks than would be necessary by the numbers often. I love Belkar to death, but his character design from a min-max standpoint is outright awful and utterly ineffective.

A halfling level 12 ranger/1 barbarian PC who dual wields daggers versus a half-orc level 17 rogue NPC who wields a bastard sword. Are you kiddin me? The bastard sword bit is sub-optimal, but when facing a thoroughly inferior opponent it doesn't really matter.

The halfling ranger, even with a likely +6 or so favored enemy vs. humans that may apply to half-orcs if the DM kindly house rules it to be so, is going to be totally out-damaged by the half-orc unless his weapons have tons of mystery +1d6 damage bonuses, which has never been implied other than that he apparently deals more damage than seems possible.

Bozzak deals a conservative 1d10+4 damage +9d6 sneak attack. (14 str, two-handed wielding, and a +1 weapon). Average damage per hit=40 damage.

Belkar deals a possible 1d3+10 damage (+2 str, +6 favored enemy (gift from DM), +2 weapons). Average damage per hit= 12 damage.

With Crystal merely as a non-damage contributing flanker, Bozzak would put Belkar down in 1 round, 2 tops. Unless Belkar can roll all 20's to multiply that bonus damage with crits then he has no hope since his lowest BAB iterative attacks will almost certainly miss. If Belkar can get 6 hits with some of them as crits in before Bozzak gets 2-3 sneak attack hits in, then he has a prayer.

If Belkar doesn't get substantial favored enemy bonuses, then all bets are off as Bozzak wins without trying. In that case Belkar may as well hope that Mr Scruffy is up to the task instead.

The major X factors are that Crystal is an idiot who could be neutralized with any number of distractions, and the competence and power of the cleric could easily be sufficient to tilt the encounter single handedly. Will saves for the win. The active ingredient in clerics is Awesome, afterall.

Celia doesn't matter other than as a distraction. Her only useful attack is more likely to harm Belkar and the cleric than the rogue opponents.

But it really doesn't matter since story triumphs over statistical realities, that's how we get to relish in seeing Belkar kill classed NPCs in a 1-2 hits with what must be very weak attacks that simply couldn't get the job done in an actual game. Rock on Belkster!

[Hydro Globus]

I always said Bozzok would win. Of course I didn't count on Cleric of Loki, and regrettably I didn't count on Mr Scruffy. This way? I think it would be a pretty equal battle. If Bozzok has enough minions to keep Belkar flanked, he wins, otherwise Belkar will. IMHO.

[Mystic Twilight]

I hate to point out that there are three (if not more hiding somewhere) rogues/thieves (bah i dont know the exact jargon) that ran after celia who gave them the slip. Statistics aside, i can see the three missing thieves in action returning in this battle to balance out the number of people opposing each other. Bozzok + crystal + 3 thieves = 5. Belkar + cleric + celia + Haley (if she is revived in time) + Mr Scruffy = 5 + Roy's ghost (if that does anything at all, which seemed to have some sort of affect on celia) = 6.

Its 5 bad guys vs 5 (or 6) good guys.

[tribble]

Bozzak deals a conservative 1d10+4 damage +9d6 sneak attack. (14 str, two-handed wielding, and a +1 weapon). Average damage per hit=40 damage.


Bozzak isn't getting sneak attacks if he isn't getting a flank. If bozzak gets d10+4 damage without sneak attacks, then he does 14 damage tops. now if belkar is getting 12 damage a hit like you said, and getting 6 attacks to bozzok's 3 like everyone here thinks he is, then he's outdamaging bozzok by a significant margin.

[amanamana]

And don't forget the effect mr. Scruffy can have on Crystal:

"Wooow, cute kitty! Here, kitty kitty...":smalltongue:

And there goes that flanking!:smallbiggrin:

I mean, that woman trusted her nemesis on a conversation about her on supposed weakness! Come on! You think she won't be distracted by such a cute kitty?:smallamused:

[Zevox]

And don't forget the effect mr. Scruffy can have on Crystal:

"Wooow, cute kitty! Here, kitty kitty...":smalltongue:

And there goes that flanking!:smallbiggrin:

I mean, that woman trusted her nemesis on a conversation about her on supposed weakness! Come on! You think she won't be distracted by such a cute kitty?:smallamused:
I could so see that happening. That would be an absolutely perfect way to work this :smallbiggrin: .

Zevox

[eras10]

and getting 6 attacks to bozzok's 3 like everyone here thinks he is

Are we sure that Belkar's getting 6 attacks per round? Only a few months ago he was going after the MoD during the end of the Azure City Battle and clearly attacked five times. There's no obvious reason why he wouldn't have attacked six times there. I see the game logic for 6 attacks, but I'm still not sure there's not something we're missing.

Also - I can't keep the two-weapon rules fighting system straight, but here's my best guess at his BAB per attack- *with* six: +12, +7, +2, +1, -3, -7. Including +2 weapons, +1 size bonus, -2 two-weapon for the first four attacks and -5/-10 for the last two.

Looking at this, I think it's unlikely that Belkar will average more than three hits a round. Bozzok almost certainly has a better AC -


Armor Class: Unknown; Bozzok has a buckler, but Belkar has a +1 size bonus. Neither seems to wear armor, but they might count as leather or cloth or something. Bozzok likely put his best stat into Dexterity, but Belkar gets a halfling racial bonus to it. Winner: Tie

I count Belkar's total AC Bonus as 1 - you doublecount this here, and Bozzok's at around 5 - I think his Dex modifier is at least 4, he's a 17th level Guild-leading thief for Pete's sake.

And this isn't even considering that Bozzok may have levels in fighter - a week or two ago that was discussed, and it still seems likely to me. Guy doesn't need to be four *rogue* levels ahead of Haley to Sneak Attack, just four levels ahead, some of them rogue. Right? He's got an abnormal number of feats in weapon and shield proficiencies to have no fighter levels.

Even if Belkar gets 2/3 extra attacks, he could easily go several rounds getting no more hits than Bozzok, and I don't think he'll average more than one extra hit per round - maybe more like 0.5. Throw out that favored enemy bonus, and it's a tossup even without sneak attacks.

Given our stat and equipment uncertainties, either one of them could have an edge, but 1 on 1, I would call it dead steenking even.

[SinsI]

Are we sure that Belkar's getting 6 attacks per round? Only a few months ago he was going after the MoD during the end of the Azure City Battle and clearly attacked five times. There's no obvious reason why he wouldn't have attacked six times there. I see the game logic for 6 attacks, but I'm still not sure there's not something we're missing.

Also - I can't keep the two-weapon rules fighting system straight, but here's my best guess at his BAB per attack- *with* six: +12, +7, +2, +1, -3, -7. Including +2 weapons, +1 size bonus, -2 two-weapon for the first four attacks and -5/-10 for the last two.
Belkar has at least 11 levels in Ranger (Giant said so). That gives him a bonus feat that counts as Greater Two-Weapon fighting. If his attack bonus is 13, he gets to attack six times at (+11, +6, +1) (main hand) and (+11, +6, +1) (offhand) to hit.

[Curris]

Remember this as well. . . As a randomizing factor, both Belkar and Bozzok are currently injured, thereby shuffling the numbers.

Furthermore, Remember Belkar's guerrila fight against Miko? Staying in the shadows and tossing daggers vs. her ability to heal.

Hide skill isn't just for rogues, but it's just an example of crafty manuvers available to Belkar.

Or, hey, here's an idea. . . Belkar, primarily a Str based melee fighter vs. Bozzok, Dex based. In a Grapple. Daggers are light weapons, and Bastard swords aren't. If Belkar Rages, bonus to Str . . . Can't Sneak attack in a grapple either, as you threaten no squares. . .

Food for thought.

[three08]

:belkar:'d run into the size penalty there too, though. maybe not enough to tip it entirely, but worth mentioning.

[only1doug]

Bozzok almost certainly has a better AC -

I count Belkar's total AC Bonus as 1 - you doublecount this here, and Bozzok's at around 5 - I think his Dex modifier is at least 4, he's a 17th level Guild-leading thief for Pete's sake.

Correct Bozzok is a guild leader, Belkar is a professional adventurer, which of these will focus more wealth on AC? (OK rogue guild but NPC's often don't have PC wealth by level equipment)



And this isn't even considering that Bozzok may have levels in fighter - a week or two ago that was discussed, and it still seems likely to me. Guy doesn't need to be four *rogue* levels ahead of Haley to Sneak Attack, just four levels ahead, some of them rogue. Right? He's got an abnormal number of feats in weapon and shield proficiencies to have no fighter levels.


Incorrect, see Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#improvedUncannyDodge)


SRD:
unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.



Even if Belkar gets 2/3 extra attacks, he could easily go several rounds getting no more hits than Bozzok, and I don't think he'll average more than one extra hit per round - maybe more like 0.5. Throw out that favored enemy bonus, and it's a tossup even without sneak attacks.

Given our stat and equipment uncertainties, either one of them could have an edge, but 1 on 1, I would call it dead steenking even.

I disagree, Belkar should get more hits in.

Enemies: Bozzok + 3 unnamed + crystal

Allies: Belkar, The Scruffmeister, Cleric, Haley, Celia.

Discount unnamed rogues, they are dead if belkar looks at them crosseyed.
Discount Celia, shes a one trick pony made obsolete by Improved uncanny dodge.

Crystal Vs Haley.... tough fight, Haley can't do much here.
Belkar Vs Crystal... Dead assassin. Belkar doesn't care about Haleys past grudges and lets face it Haley just found out that Bozzok is her true nemesis, he caused her father to be imprisoned, creating the entire situation she is now facing.
Haley Vs Bozzok... Haley needs help to take down a enemy 4 levels higher than her, thats an entire party encounter... oh lookie... Haley + Cleric + kitty + Belkar + Celia = party...

so Belkar shows up and kills Crystal, spars with Bozzok while cleric and sylph heal Haley. unnamed minions show up for a minor distraction but die quickly. Bozzok dies against group. Cleric is out of heals, Belkar dies from dropping out of rage without enough HPs.

Exit Shoeless God of War, stage center.

[commander43]

For one, story trumps stats to a ridiculous degree. Keep that in mind with all this.

For two, people will recall that Belkar handily defeated Miko when she had her paladin powers. Of course, this was using trickery and dirty fighting, and it was against a paladin. But Miko is probably at about the same power level as Bozzok here, so it seems somewhat significant.

Belkar has been shown to be far more effective than he should be in D&D terms. His build is pretty terrible in actual rules, but he is arguably about as powerful as Roy. Really all the members of the OOTS seem to be pretty even in power levels right now, except for V, who is more powerful than the rest by a good margin, but this is probably just because of Wizardness.

Overall, I'd say Belkar by the actual stats, stands a slim chance.

By story, I'd say Belkar will kick their asses.

[SixOfSpades]

I agree--go ahread and crunch the numbers if you want to, but "stupid railroad plot" trumps all. Belkar can't kill Crystal, as she's clearly marked for death by Haley's hand, and no other. (Also, Haley won't be killing Crystal during this fight, because she needs to build up angst and rage about her mutilated hair.) So Crystal gets away. It's very unlikely that Belkar will be able to kill Bozzok, because not only he is a guild leader, but he's also a Half-Orc we can actually respect, both for his stats and his brains. So Bozzok probably gets away too. But Belkar's gotta kill somebody, so the three misplaced moneygrubbers will be making a comeback. Belkar (with cleric support) kills the nameless dude and wounds/kills the halfling who was in Origin of the PCs, and with additional support from Celia, finally manages to take down the recruit from the Fighter Outreach Program. (During this last, Bozzok and crystal make their escape.)

Getting Haley back into the fight? With what bow?

[keldorn]

Who's Sylvia?

Who is Silvia? what is she,
That all our swains commend her?
Holy, fair, and wise is she;
The heaven such grace did lend her,
That she might admirèd be.

Is she kind as she is fair?
For beauty lives with kindness.
Love doth to her eyes repair,
To help him of his blindness,
And, being helped, inhabits there.

Then to Silvia let us sing,
That Silvia is excelling;
She excels each mortal thing
Upon the dull earth dwelling:
To her let us garlands bring.

Hm. Sounds like a definite lust from Belkar then.:smallwink:

[OOTS_Rules 2]

Belkar would win hands-down. He has rage, a cleric, AND Mr. Scruffy on his side. And if he can get Haley back on her feet, its four against two. Bozzok and Crystal are going DOWN!

[someonenonotyou]

Winner=:belkar: come on hes a sexy shoeless god of WAR!

[pendell]

Getting Haley back into the fight? With what bow?

Bow? She's got a sap. And fists. And feet. And teeth. And elbows. One hundred plus pounds of woman who is really IRRITATED at having her hair chopped off.

Plus she might be able to steal Crystal's dagger. She is a rogue, after all, and Crystal's dumb as a box of rocks.

Or she might be able to pick up a dropped weapon from one of the dead mooks. Or improvise a weapon. Or devise a cunning trap.

Because Haley carries the most deadly weapon of all -- a functional and highly devious human mind. So long as she carries that around with her, she is never totally unarmed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[David Argall]

I disagree. A 17th-level rogue vs. a 12th-level ranger/1st-level barbarian in a melee confrontation? If Bozzok doesn't have a flanker, Belkar is at least equal if not superior.

Tale of the Tape:
Armor Class: Unknown; Bozzok has a buckler, but Belkar has a +1 size bonus. Neither seems to wear armor, but they might count as leather or cloth or something. Bozzok likely put his best stat into Dexterity, but Belkar gets a halfling racial bonus to it. Winner: Tie
Winner is Bozzak. Belkar should be in zero armor. While there is no penalty for sleeping in light armor, it is hard to see how any armor would not have been taken off him during the two weeks or so he was ill. Belkar knew he was going to be in a fight with a worthy foe and thus would come to the scene in the best armor he could get.


Strength Bonus: Unknown, but Belkar is a primary melee fighter, while Bozzok probably put his best stat into Dexterity. On the other hand, Belkar is a halfling and Bozzok is a half-orc, so... Winner: Tie
Winner Bozzak. Two weapon fighting requires a 15 dex and even if Belkar can ignore that as ranger, he likely has it anyway. But that -2 str vs the +2 means in a point buy system means Belkar must spend 16 points to end up with the same Str 16 Bozzak can get with 6. And we see Bozzak using two handed attack, which about guarantees he has an 18 str.

We can add in that Bozzak has an advantage in feats. He has 1-2 more than Belkar, and two-weapon fighting is rather feat intensive. So Bozzak has a serious advantage that could amount to about +2 to hit and damage.


Magic Items: Bozzok may have the wealth of the entire Thieves' Guild, but he's still an NPC; Belkar has level-appropriate PC wealth. Winner: Belkar
Winner Bozzak. For Belkar to win assumes a rather generic following of the book. But Bozzak is not a random 17th level. He is the head of the guild and is described as looting the others rather heavily. He thus has much better magic than the random NPC has. Moreover, we have him described as going into frequent combat with visiting rogues, often enough to gain a lot of levels. He is thus maxed out in combat gear.
On the other side, Belkar has been going thru a rough patch where money has got to be low. Note here that Haley tells us how she has had to spend her money to finance her forces. Given Haley, we can presume she spent Belkar's money too, and stole any of his magic items that were not clearly useful as well. So Belkar is well below the curve on PC wealth.


But the most important factor is this:
Loyalty: Belkar has Mr. Scruffy and a cleric who gains no benefit from Belkar dying; Bozzok has a bunch of thieves from whom he has been taking 50% of their profits for years AND who would all get a promotion if he dies. Winner: Belkar, in a knock-out.
Very much unclear.
Our cleric is eager to run. Now he wants to be paid and Belkar is a very useful guard, but if there is an open door and Belkar is distracting the rogues, but not clearly winning, the cleric could vanish.
The rogues are not particularly loyal to Bozzak, true, but they know he has reached 17th level by winning a whole lot of fights and he will be lethally unhappy if they don't help. So unless he is clearly losing, they are going to fight for him.
Now it is not at all clear how many rogues will actually show. While Bozzak has enough total underlings to swamp Belkar, he didn't really know about Belkar at all and so he may be down to Crystal and three others, who may be too lost to help.

But overall, Bozzak is the strong favorite.
Now the actual result depends on plot, and that looks much more favorable for Belkar. But we have seen the good guys lose quite a few fights.

[Shatteredtower]

For one, story trumps stats to a ridiculous degree. Keep that in mind with all this.

That seems to be the consensus thus far. I can't argue with it either. Having said that, there are a few points I wished to mention:


...Crystal's armor class HAS to suck with how she doesn't wear armor.

Funny thing: The maximum Dexterity bonus is +8 for padded armor, a 10 lb weight that would add nothing to AC for a character with a 28 Dexterity, and actually falls behind for scores of 30 or higher. At that point, you're better off relying on a magic shield and clothing that's been given an armor enhancement bonus.

It's very unlikely that Crystal's Dexterity is that high, but it's not entirely impossible. For example: 18 Dexterity at 1st level +3 for a 12th+ level character +6 bracers of dexterity +1 insight bonus (wish).


I hate to point out that there are three (if not more hiding somewhere) rogues/thieves (bah i dont know the exact jargon) that ran after celia who gave them the slip.

Worth noting, and they could make it harder for Belkar to avoid sneak attacks from Bozzok (or from them). While they last, of course.


A halfling level 12 ranger/1 barbarian PC who dual wields daggers versus a half-orc level 17 rogue NPC who wields a bastard sword.

Never rule out the guy with the ranged weapons, especially if he's good at sniping. Besides, the base weapon damage tends to matter less than bonus damage beyond a certain point, though you appear to have accounted for that.


Belkar deals a possible 1d3+10 damage (+2 str, +6 favored enemy (gift from DM), +2 weapons). Average damage per hit= 12 damage.

I think the favoured enemy damage can be ruled out, but I think you might be seriously underestimating Belkar's Strength score. We already know he's cut corners on Wisdom and Wisdom-based skills, so I wouldn't put it past him to coast on his halfling bonus to Dexterity and Move Silently checks, to say nothing of the size bonus to Hide checks, focusing instead on the benefits a high Strength score gives, especially for a class that already receives bonuses to Climb and Jump checks. (I suspect he went for the recommended Constitution score, however.) One reason he could get away with this is because he doesn't need to meet the Dexterity requirements for the Two-Weapon Fighting chain of feats. At this level, a Strength of 16 is not unreasonable (base 15 - 2 race +3 level).

Nevertheless, the deciding factor in a fight between the two of them, if we were to go strictly by the rulebook, would be whether or not Bozzok could get his sneak attack damage. That applies even if it should turn out that Belkar has an enhancement bonus to Strength (whether provided by an item or clerical support) and opts to rage for this fight.


Plus she might be able to steal Crystal's dagger.

I'm not sure it is a dagger. In the first panel of A Sight for Sore Eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), Haley describes it as Crystal's "funky sword".

(Hmm... looks like a potential Yun Seong build for SCIV.)

[pendell]

I'm not sure it is a dagger.


And in the strip where Crystal shattered the bow, Crystal called it a '+4 dagger'.

Of course, at this point I wouldn't trust Crystal to know the color of the sky. Is this what an Int of 3 looks like?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shatteredtower]

Winner is Bozzak. Belkar should be in zero armor. While there is no penalty for sleeping in light armor, it is hard to see how any armor would not have been taken off him during the two weeks or so he was ill.

It's not like either Haley or Celia would have wanted to touch him. Since he's dressed the same way he always is and his clothing appears to be clean, there's no reason to think he's not wearing his armor.


And we see Bozzak using two handed attack, which about guarantees he has an 18 str.

Insufficient data. We do know that Belkar doesn't have to spend a single feat on two-weapon fighting style, however, nor is he required to have the necessary 19+ Dexterity. As I noted earlier, a halfling ranger willing to leave Wisdom as a dump stat (possibly in addition to Charisma) is also the sort that would consider coasting on his Dexterity bonus and focusing on higher Strength (despite being a halfling).


But Bozzak is not a random 17th level. He is the head of the guild and is described as looting the others rather heavily.

And for all we know, most of that money has gone into bribery, gambling, or alimony payments. As the comic has shown, the rules make a hash of economic realities quite frequently. Whatever the case, there's no evidence that he's better equipped than average -- or even that his forces are underequipped for their level.

[Shatteredtower]

And in the strip where Crystal shattered the bow, Crystal called it a '+4 dagger'.

Excellent point. Still gonna create that Yun Seong build, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Sethek]

By looking at 3.5 edition rules, purely from a geekery perspective, a dual-wielding Ranger actually does fit with the Halfling race.
The difference between short swords and daggers is not that great - feats and magical plusses play a far greater role.

For instance, sharpened daggers with a decent plus, weapon finesse, imp. critical, favoured enemy, even barbarian rage, size boni and racials, that all adds up nicely to a bucketload of decent attack numbers and thus critical hits. Something like an enraged hornet style of fighting. Granted, it's not as efficient as other avenues, but it's far from being as bad as you describe, and most certainly quite sufficient to beat the living snot out of any main-rogue-char mano a mano. Plus, it is absolutely great for slicing weak and defenseless soft flesh and cloth - Belkster style.

Rogues, besides being one-hit-wonders, can only contribute to basic meelee fighting with someone flanking for them, or (and that's most likely going to be a real problem) through their UMD skill. A guild leader possibly has access to a wide array of scrolls and wands, and with Bozzok's level, he can just about use anything. A simple greater invisibility scroll would already be the bane of everyone without magic abilities, add to that various wall/illusion/smoke/darkness/silence/charm/confusion-effects, and that's why rogues actually, from a munchkin perspective, are way overpowered, even more than sharpened-scythe-wielding-strength-based-weaponmaster/fighter/rogues :)

So, if Bozzok actually HAS prepared his trinkets for an emergency (which might not be the case since the Belkster was not any visible threat ever since Haley's group has arrived in Greysky), no way. Never. Ever.

Still, the whole discussion is moot - Belkar won't get there in time :)

€dit: Discount Crystal as long as she's not betraying Bozzok to both become the new leader and keep her automatic exp flow - which won't happen because she's dumb as a doorknob. Why? She has taken quite some subdual damage back there - a sap sneak attack (which was a regular one, so no uncanny dodge there), a kick and most likely a few punches. She should be unconscious for quite some time after even a very short stabbing :)

[Hydro Globus]

It just occured to me - did Haley use the same bow which was with her prior to #250? If so, how could "Miko's stupid horse" Sunder it? It's +3...

[Hydro Globus]

Of course, at this point I wouldn't trust Crystal to know the color of the sky.

Why, grey of course :) :smallsmile:

[Prowl]

Before doing the math... one should take inventory.

On the OotS side we have:

Belkar (full health with all abilities) ~ L13 Ranger/L1 Barbarian
Cleric Who Shall Not Be Named - Level unknown, can cast Cure Critical wounds, has cast only 3 spells (sending, inflict serious wounds, cure critical wounds) and has "mostly healing" spells memorized
Haley (unconscious) ~L13 rogue
Celia - sorceress slyph of unknown level
Scruffy - ubercat


On the Thieves' Guild side we have:
Bozzok - ~ L17 rogue
Crystal - ~ L13 rogue
Hank - rogue, > L8
Unnamed rogue - L8
Yor - fighter, level unknown, probably in the 7-9 range


Given that the cleric has most of his spells left and Belkar still has his rage plus a very likely favored-opponent attack on all opponents except perhaps Hank, and that rogues don't do so well in toe-to-toe melee combat... just eyeballing it, I wouldn't be so confident that the thieves would emerge victorious here. I'd guess Belkar is also getting a circumstance bonus from getting to kill freely for the first time in ages.

As a wildcard, we also have Jenny... who could potentially contribute on either side. Then there's also V, whose whereabouts are unknown, and Durkon/Elan who presumably have just received the sending, and may possibly have access to someone who can teleport them to Greysky.

[Hydro Globus]

Just a little question: doesn't Belkar still need a Restoration? I think he's L12 ranger/L1 barbarian + 1 unassigned (drained) level. Someone help me out - is this correct or not?

[Slayn82]

About the restoration: well, maybe, since he got some sunlight out of the fallen Azure City, he got it back (as weird as it sounds, it in some settings, works this way) by making a sucessfull save against the undead's level drain DC.

Second, since Celya is a Sylph, and Belkar has woodland stride, would not Celya spells be acounted as natural effects? And thus, would not a second fog spell (well, actually i think maybe the first one was just an illusion, it was rather odd, but it flowed to inside the special room, so not sure) be possible to come, causing all the rogues to be unable to sneak attack (because it requires the target to be able to se clearly, and so, in game terms, without any degree of camouflage) and not affecting Belkar? Or, maybe, just working normally, and affecting Belkar, but BREAKING the rogues?

[Zevox]

Winner Bozzak. Two weapon fighting requires a 15 dex and even if Belkar can ignore that as ranger, he likely has it anyway. But that -2 str vs the +2 means in a point buy system means Belkar must spend 16 points to end up with the same Str 16 Bozzak can get with 6. And we see Bozzak using two handed attack, which about guarantees he has an 18 str.

We can add in that Bozzak has an advantage in feats. He has 1-2 more than Belkar, and two-weapon fighting is rather feat intensive. So Bozzak has a serious advantage that could amount to about +2 to hit and damage.
Not necessarily so. It is true that Belkar's race vs Bozzok's puts him at a disadvantage there, and that Bozzok's use of his sword two-handed likely points to a score of 18+, but since Belkar is primarily a melee warrior, it seems pretty likely he put any level-up boosts to his stats into strength. After all, he sure as hell doesn't seem to care about his mental stats, and of the physical stats, strength would be the most useful to him. Plus he has rage, which is another +4, albeit a temporary one. Bozzok, meanwhile, is a Rogue, and would be more likely to favor dexterity for stat boosts, for AC, hiding, and so on. Now of course either may have magic items to boost those, but we don't have any idea what, so there's little point in speculating on that.

And you're way off on the feats matter. Belkar is mostly a Ranger, he gets the two-weapon fighting feats for free from his class. Bozzok, meanwhile, must have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to use his sword in one hand, which is one feat down, and his class doesn't give bonus feats of any sort. Also, note that the only feat he could take to boost his attack is Weapon Focus, which is a mere +1. Anything else would require him to be a Fighter level 4+, which he clearly isn't, since he can sneak attack Haley. And it's just as likely Belkar could have weapon focus himself - why not if he's going to use two of the same weapon? - so we can't assume Bozzok has the advantage there.


Funny thing: The maximum Dexterity bonus is +8 for padded armor, a 10 lb weight that would add nothing to AC for a character with a 28 Dexterity, and actually falls behind for scores of 30 or higher. At that point, you're better off relying on a magic shield and clothing that's been given an armor enhancement bonus.

It's very unlikely that Crystal's Dexterity is that high, but it's not entirely impossible. For example: 18 Dexterity at 1st level +3 for a 12th+ level character +6 bracers of dexterity +1 insight bonus (wish).
Somehow, I really doubt that an NPC, even a rival one, would have such a high stat. Especially given Bozzok would almost surely take an item as powerful as a pair of gloves of dexterity +6 for himself, and we've no reason to believe she would have gotten a wish-boost. Given she's human, and thus has no racial boost to dexterity, it isn't too likely she started with 18 dexterity either (though I'll grant that, assuming point buy, her low mental stats may be a result of her dumping all her points on good physical stats, which may point to 18 dexterity).


Just a little question: doesn't Belkar still need a Restoration? I think he's L12 ranger/L1 barbarian + 1 unassigned (drained) level. Someone help me out - is this correct or not?
No. By now Belkar has either made or failed his save to regain that level (that happens 24 hours after it was drained). Likely made, given he's a a high level Ranger with 1-2 levels of Barbarian, and so has a good fortitude save (if that was a standard Wight, the DC is a mere 14, so at his level Belkar would only need to roll above a 2 or 3 to succeed, and that's if his constitution is only around 12).

Zevox

[Tomada]

Just a little question: doesn't Belkar still need a Restoration? I think he's L12 ranger/L1 barbarian + 1 unassigned (drained) level. Someone help me out - is this correct or not?

No (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)

He either waste it, or used it already.

Probably he took another barbarian level. Because the Fort DC is very easy for wights (14), Belkar would need in the vicinity of 5 or 4 to save for it.
EDIT: as the guy above points out, he would just need a 2 to pass. Since the multi-class laws for saves are on his side.


And Belkar wins, hands down. A pure FULL-BAB against a Rogue who MOST PROBABLY won't be able to sneak attack? Even four levels shy is just too little to change things for bozzak.

Belkar:
14 (BAB) + 1(size) + 2(dagger, Haley had a +3 weapon, as does Elan) + 3(str, 5 when raging, assuming 16 str, witch would be normal for a fighter-class) = 20
Or somewhere around 18/18/13/13/8/8, IF he doesn't have finesse and it maybe actually higher.

Damage: 3x[1d3 + 3(str, 5 raging) +2 (magical)] + 3x[1d3 + 1(str, 2 raging) +2 (magical)]

Hit points: 12d8+2d12+28 (considering only 14 con, witch is low) = 95.

AC: 10 + 1(size) + 4 (dex) + 4 (magical leather) = 19.

Bozzak:
12 (BAB)+ 4(str, assuming 18 here, witch is a stretch) + 3(magical weapon) = 17
Or 17/12/7.

Damage: 3x[1d10 + 6(str 18, and double-handed) + 3(magical)]

Hit points: 17d6+51 (considering 16 CON) = 111.

Ac: 10 + 5(dex) +4(magical leather) = 19.

---------------------------------------------------------------

With the assumptions above, lets calculate!

Chance to Hit: Belkar can hit 95%/95%/65%/65%/40%/40% of the time. That means around 13(primary hand)+9(seccundary hand) = 22 each round. taking 5 rounds to down Bozzak.

Chance to Hit: Bozzak can hit 90%/60%/35% of the time. Or 26,825, 27 damage per round. taking 4 rounds to down Belkar.

Given Belkar gets first round he doesn't even need to rage or anything to better bozzak (he HAS the surprise afterall).


AND, all of this is assuming Belkar has WORSE strenght, WORSE Dexterity (even though he is a halfling), WORSE Constitution, WORSE Int, wis and possibly Cha. AND that his preferred enemy doesn't account, AND he doesn't rage.

IF (and he will) Belkar rages, he kills Bozzak REALLY easilly. (+28 hit points, 34,5 damage per round, -2AC, or plus 25% damage from Bozzak, witch is 35 per round. About the same damage output, but now Belkar has MORE Hitpoints. And lets not forget that the halfling is getting shafted in EVERY stat)

EDIT: Oh, and Power attack comes in play here, Belkar HAS it, we know that. And when he rages, his first 2 attacks are at 95% already (max chance to hit), so why not turn those lovelyy +2 to hit into lovely +2 to hit (+4, two hands).

EDIT>EDIT: And I'm not counting Mr. Scruffy either, witch is part of Belkar's character as it is a class ability (that may be more powerful than an entire class).

[ColdSepp]

While I want Belkar to win, you are all forgetting a Rogues most important feature.

Use Magic Device. Assuming Bozzak put a point in every level, and that he is L17, he has a minimum of 20. Before items, before Charisma, etc.

As he is also a head of a thieves guild, all he needs is a scroll, wand, or other spell trigger device to get Invisibility, Greater or Superior Invisibility. Then all his attacks are Sneak Attack, regardless of flanking.

What are the chances of the cleric having Dispel Magic prepped? We know Belkar has horrible Listen and Spot.

Even if Belkar gets a surprise round, Bozzak can still take a 5 Foot Step away, and use UMD.

[Tomada]

While I want Belkar to win, you are all forgetting a Rogues most important feature.

Use Magic Device. Assuming Bozzak put a point in every level, and that he is L17, he has a minimum of 20. Before items, before Charisma, etc.

As he is also a head of a thieves guild, all he needs is a scroll, wand, or other spell trigger device to get Invisibility, Greater or Superior Invisibility. Then all his attacks are Sneak Attack, regardless of flanking.

What are the chances of the cleric having Dispel Magic prepped? We know Belkar has horrible Listen and Spot.

Even if Belkar gets a surprise round, Bozzak can still take a 5 Foot Step away, and use UMD.

That could make things a little tricky. Belkar has some kind of Scent, as we know. But still, if Bozzak is going to try a trick, imagine what the sexy shoeless god of war will do, then? I was more crunching then together as numbers, if we add tactics then Belkar has the upper hand again, as he has surprise, they don't even know he exists, and could easily ask Mr. Cleric to buff him to high heavens.

[Zevox]

While I want Belkar to win, you are all forgetting a Rogues most important feature.

Use Magic Device.
Except, as shown by Haley, not all Rogues take advantage of that. Bozzok may or may not have it. If he does, it could be a game-changer, assuming Belkar doesn't convince the Cleric to buff him and/or the Cleric lacks appropriates counters to whatever Bozzok has up his sleeve. If he doesn't, the fact that he could have taken it means nothing. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

Zevox

[BossMuro]

Something everyone else seems not to have thought of: As we've just been reminded, Belkar's proto-brain divides everyone he meets into the categories of either "kill" or "lust". Which category do you think expect the scantily dressed homicidal maniac to fall into?

[mroozee]

I haven't seen it mentioned by anyone else, but the OOTS-ish side...

...may include the Rogue formerly known as Eagle-Eyed/Old Blind Pete - who may want to help out his Cleric friend, take out some pent up aggression on Bozzak, get revenge on Crystal and maybe even help out Haley. He has at least 10 minutes and probably more like 15... Regenerate takes 3 rounds to cast, 2d10 to regenerate (unless he carries his eyes with him), plus travel time and other delays... should put him back just in time for the finale.

[awibs]

Yes, Haley needs a bow. But what are the odds that not one other rouge in the whole guild, who all seem to be there, owns a bow of any sort?

[Sly Reference]

And in the strip where Crystal shattered the bow, Crystal called it a '+4 dagger'.

Of course, at this point I wouldn't trust Crystal to know the color of the sky. Is this what an Int of 3 looks like?

Actually, I'd guess this to be Int 4 or 5. Thog was Int 3.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I just want to point out that, if Bozzok is as smart as we think he is, he'd have a good chance of knowing how many thieves went into that room. And Belkar was the one who walked out.

He might be smart enough to throw Crystal under the bus and run.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Belkar's proto-brain divides everyone he meets into the categories of either "kill" or "lust". Which category do you think expect the scantily dressed homicidal maniac to fall into?

This could very easily end with him sparing Crystal's life in order to try and seduce her, and then pretending it was out of mercy. This would let him do some of that false character development and give him a smug sense of moral superiority over Haley and possibly Celia. Then Jenny might walk in, get jealous, and deal the final blow to Crystal.

[Klev]

This could very easily end with him sparing Crystal's life in order to try and seduce her, and then pretending it was out of mercy. This would let him do some of that false character development and give him a smug sense of moral superiority over Haley and possibly Celia. Then Jenny might walk in, get jealous, and deal the final blow to Crystal.
... or the final blow to Belkar :smalltongue:

The only problem with Belkar is that he is too straight forward, like he saw in the fight today he doesn't think he just acts (watch the panel with the sneaks attacks, is not that they flanked him, but he jumped right in the middle of them). If he goes in the middle of Crystal and Bozzak and receives the same sneak attacks he is down.

[Zevox]

Something everyone else seems not to have thought of: As we've just been reminded, Belkar's proto-brain divides everyone he meets into the categories of either "kill" or "lust". Which category do you think expect the scantily dressed homicidal maniac to fall into?
Has everyone forgotten that this is not an established fact, but merely a theory of V's in response to Belkar kissing her during New Years? There's no guarantee it's correct. And actually, I'd personally say that we have some substantial evidence against it: Shojo. Belkar certainly didn't hate him, but neither did he lust after him. He admired him. That falls outside the parameters of V's theory.

Really, amusing though V's theory was as a joke, there's a much more obvious explanation for the kiss. Belkar was dead-drunk. Between his small body and the amount of booz he drank, who knows what state his mind was in? It's not even as though his mind is all that stable in the best of circumstances anyway.

Zevox

[David Argall]

Bozzak:
12 (BAB)
Bozzak would have 13 BAB [or Belkar would have 13 instead of 14] Bozzak is 4 levels higher than Haley who is deemed the same level as Belkar. [While we see Belkar gain a level, he also tells us about his limited chances to gain XP, meaning that Haley gained XP when he couldn't and was at least as high level as he was after the gain.]



+ 4(str, assuming 18 here, witch is a stretch)
If we start with the base 16 for both, Bozzak goes right to 18, and adding to strength can make him 20 or 22.

If we start with both having 16 str, 15 con, and 16 Dex, racial adjustments make that Belkar 14 str, 15, 18 Dex, and Bozzak 18, 15, 16. Bekkar get +3 to make that a possible 18-16-18 vs Bozzak at 22-15-16. If we use alternate starting figures Bozzak does better. starting with 16-14-16, Belkar can only get to 16-15-18, while Bozzak is 22-14-16.
The decision to put all of Bozzak's points in Dex is simply wrong for the character.



+ 3(magical weapon)
Here Bozzak has at least +4. He has the entire guild treasury behind him.



Ac: 10 + 5(dex) +4(magical leather) = 19.
Now these ACs are absurd. PCs get ACs into the 30s and 40s at this level. Both should be assumed to be well into the 20s. WXP [spoiler] Belkar talks of throwing a ring of protection+1 in the trash. So we need to assume a ring+2 or +3 for each. Again, Bozzak should have the edge.



Given Belkar gets first round he doesn't even need to rage or anything to better bozzak (he HAS the surprise afterall).
He almost certainly does not. Belkar is moving with a cleric in armor. See #24. And Bozzak is loaded with skill ranks, which makes for a very high listen modifier. So there is about zero chance of gaining surprise. Instead, the odds are that Bozzak will hear them coming and will set up an ambush.

And of course all of this analysis assumes that Bozzak doesn't get to sneak attack. If he does, Belkar can be dropped in one round.

[Tomada]

If we start with both having 16 str, 15 con, and 16 Dex, racial adjustments make that Belkar 14 str, 15, 18 Dex, and Bozzak 18, 15, 16. Bekkar get +3 to make that a possible 18-16-18 vs Bozzak at 22-15-16. If we use alternate starting figures Bozzak does better.

I really don't know how Bozzak would be better is this scenario. Belkar gets MORE hit points and MORE AC. along with MORE strength. Bozzak not only gets FEWER Hit points, he gets a worse AC.

If we assume some +10 to Bozzak's AC and +7 to Belkar's (giving the edge again to Bozzak) I think Belkar still wins, although I do not want to calculate again.

And we are assuming that, even though Bozzak is a PURE ROGUE he put his highest stat along with every level increase in str, instead of dex.

[Veneficus]

I don't think he can, however I don't think he needs to defeat them. Why couldn't Belkar just rescue Haley and then revert to good old plan A?:

RUN AWAY!!

Just a thought....though it definitely isn't in keeping with Belkars personality traits to be honest. That said he may realise he can't defeat Crystal and Bozzak but still feels that he needs to save Haley because of his new found sense of roleplaying....

[Shatteredtower]

Somehow, I really doubt that an NPC, even a rival one, would have such a high stat.

I covered that by noting it was very unlikely. It doesn't change the point that an absence of armor is no proof of a poor armor class.


Especially given Bozzok would almost surely take an item as powerful as a pair of gloves of dexterity +6 for himself...

Only if he didn't have a set already, otherwise, Crystal wouldn't own a +4 dagger/funky sword, worth nearly as much as such gloves. This suggests that Bozzak's extortion-like guild rates may be nothing more than a means of maintaining recommended wealth by level guidelines for NPC rogues that are regularly exceeding that amount in the line of duty. It may also be that Crystal has been granted a special dispensation as a PC rival.

[Glome]

... or the final blow to Belkar :smalltongue:

The only problem with Belkar is that he is too straight forward, like he saw in the fight today he doesn't think he just acts (watch the panel with the sneaks attacks, is not that they flanked him, but he jumped right in the middle of them). If he goes in the middle of Crystal and Bozzak and receives the same sneak attacks he is down.

Actually, Belkar can be quite tactically cunning when he wants to be, such as when he fought Miko. In this fight Belkar figured he was just fighting mooks, so he didn't really care if he got pegged by a couple of them. How Belkar fights Crystal and Bozzak will depend on whether he is able to recognize them as being high level dangerous enemies. Of course them standing over Haley's body will probably tip him off.

[Super_slash2]

Belkar will most likely win from sheer numbers, his most likely new-found willingness to get other people involved and NOT solo the enemies and the cleric's healing......

But I have a penchant for intelligent and cunning enemies and it's really hard to find those in a story. So I hope Bozzok and Crystal put up a solid fight; I hate it when someone just steam-rolls past an enemy - there's no drama at all.

[only1doug]

Really, amusing though V's theory was as a joke, there's a much more obvious explanation for the kiss. Belkar was dead-drunk. Between his small body and the amount of booz he drank, who knows what state his mind was in? It's not even as though his mind is all that stable in the best of circumstances anyway.

Zevox

Excellent theory; 2 minor flaws.

1. Belkar has a good fort save, avoiding intoxication is a fort save.

2. Belkar didn't drink anything until after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) he kissed Jenny.

Otherwise a fine theory

[Ron Miel]

He's talking about a different kiss. Belkar kissed V after drinking a lot.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html

[Zevox]

Excellent theory; 2 minor flaws.

1. Belkar has a good fort save, avoiding intoxication is a fort save.

2. Belkar didn't drink anything until after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) he kissed Jenny.

Otherwise a fine theory
I was referring to when Belkar kissed V. You know, the incident that prompted V to create her theory in the first place? It's pretty plain that Jenny was completely Belkar just deciding he wanted some sugar :smallwink: .

And I don't recall the D&D rules giving any such thing as a save to avoid becoming drunk. That would be a bit ridiculous, actually, as no matter who you are, if you drink enough alchohol, you do become drunk. How much each body can handle varies, but past a certain point nobody can come away sober. And in any event, it's pretty obvious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) in that comic that Belkar is getting drunk - he messes up a simple countdown, and even Durkon says that he should slow down.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

Arms and Equipment guide has rules for the different kinds of alcohol, making Fortitude saves, and Wisdom damage.

[Dreamthiev]

Even just with the cleric and Mr. Scruffy, Belkar is pretty flank-resistant unless one of the rogues can pull off invisibility or the equivilant. Since Celia may also enter the fight, and if she's not already dead Haley could re-enter it as well, I don't think Crystal and Bozzak have a very good chance. They'll probably cut and run.

However, I think Haley's chances are even poorer. Even if she's still alive when Belkar arrives they may finish her off before fleeing just to net some xp gain.

[Kish]

And I don't recall the D&D rules giving any such thing as a save to avoid becoming drunk. That would be a bit ridiculous, actually,
A twelfth level fighter can take more damage than an adult dragon, and you choke on a twentieth level fighter being able to drink a keg of alcohol without getting drunk? No one's ever called D&D a grittily realistic game, and the primary reason isn't that "grittily" isn't actually a word.

[hamishspence]

The rules are out there- just not in the DMG.

[Faceist]

Vis-a-vis the topic title. Short answer yes, long answer hell yes. Belkar has the benefit of popularity power coupled with plot shield. If he wants he could beat Bozzak to death with Crystal.

Honestly though, Belkar's shown himself in the past to be tactically cunning (as in the battle with Miko). He has decent strength and great dexterity, and he has backup in the form of a distractive animal companion and a healer with at least a small forte of destructive clerical spells. He stands a very decent chance against the pair, though I think it might boil down to Crystal V Haley and Bozzak V Belkar, for purposes of narrative excitement.

[xXEXODUSXx]

i see it going in belkar's favour here, but it depends on a few factors:

1. is haley alive/consious this could affect belkars attack methods with his new "role playing" aproach

2. allys, celia haley blekar and THE cleric of loki vs crystal, buzzok and a unnamed amount of goons, here we have so many variable factors, and one other thing. the cleric said he has "mostly" healing spells memorized what could the other be?

3.PLOT, i guess it all just really boils down to this and the mind of one man.
lets just see where this goes.

so hey lets sit backk and enjoy the ride because almost anything can,and prehaps will, happen

[Zevox]

A twelfth level fighter can take more damage than an adult dragon,
Not without a ridiculously high constitution score he couldn't. Even with the weakest dragon type, the white, a fighter at that level with a constitution of 14, a pretty typical starting score for a non-dwarf fighter, will have only half of the dragon's hp. Even if you bump that constitution up to 20, you're still only looking at about 2/3 of the dragon's hp. Compare to the toughest dragon type, the gold, and even that 20 constitution level 12 Fighter results in less than half the dragon's hp.


and you choke on a twentieth level fighter being able to drink a keg of alcohol without getting drunk?
No, I simply find the concept a bit ridiculous. Since, you know, alcohol is a real substance whose effects are well-known, not a fictitious monster requiring specific made-up rules to use in a game.

Zevox

[Datatroll]

I don't think the question is really important, to be honest. Bozzak is a lot of things, but dumb doesn't seem to be one of them. He is gonna gank the healer first, and my guess is that he will ignore the halfling with the daggers at the start of it, secure in the knowledge that if there was a rogue in town high enough level to backstab him, he would have heard of the guy.

Too bad for him Death's Lil' Helper is a ranger/barb.

Besides, from a purely storytelling standpoint the most likely character to get the axe is the healer guy. He got the sending off to sir clanks-a-lot the dwarf and his usefulness is probably reaching it's end. But then, I am not writing this. So at the end of the day I will find out when most of you do.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Bozzok is fairly tall...am I the only one who is seeing the possibility of Belkar employing the halfling hang? (Or is that move just an in-joke within my D&D group?)