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Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 03:44 AM
How would you guys improve the Healer from the Miniture's Handbook s that it's more in line with other classes? I was thinking that letting them spontaneously cast all of their spells while adding some non-lethal battlefield control and buff spells (eg: I'd add Shield of Faith, Grease and Engangle to their 1st level spell selection). I'd also consider giving them the Unicorn at level 6 rather then 8 while letting them use Wis for Save DCs rather then Cha.

Gao
2008-11-25, 03:50 AM
Play cleric instead and reflavor the class.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 03:52 AM
I know that is an option, but I was thinking more about improving the Healer rather then replacing it. Looking over the companion, that could also use some boosting (a Unicorn would only have 10 HDs by level 20 with the listed progression).

Kizara
2008-11-25, 04:18 AM
Play cleric instead and reflavor the class.

Favored Soul is a better bet.

Here's my rework of the class, using the cleric as a baseline:

Favored Soul

-Gain Deity’s Weapon Focus at 1st level and Deity’s Weapon Specialization at 6th level (instead of as listed)
-Lose Reflex good saves.
-Gain Wings at 11th level instead of 17th.
-Lose Elemental Resistances.
-Gain DR 5 at level 10, DR 10 at level 15, and DR 15 at level 20. DR is to Good or Evil.
-Gain the appropriate cure or inflict spell (depending on alignment) each level for free as a Spell Known, including mass versions.
-Gain Heavy Armor Proficiency.
-Gain Turn or Rebuke Undead at level 1.
-At level 6 gain the Luck Domain’s granted power (but not its spells).
-Casting is based off of Charisma in all respects. Restriction of spell level on spell swapping is removed.
-Lose Jump and gain Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (the planes) as class skills.
-Gain Smite (opposite alignment) at 1/day at 5th-level, 2/day at 10th-level, 3/day at 15th-level and 4/day at 20th-level.

As a side note, your thread title would be more informative if it read "Balancing the Healer Class (3.5)".

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-11-25, 04:33 AM
I've lost the bloody thing, but I recall seeing a fix that gave the class 1/2 BAB, all good saves, d8 hd, simple armor/wep prof, access to all cleric spells that are not directly offensive (meaning buffs are as aggressive as the class gets), and the ability to cast known spells of the healing subschool as if they were SLAs. Turned the class into a true combat medic. I liked it a lot.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 04:57 AM
That sounds interresting, Hadrian. Was that fix on this forum?

Thurbane
2008-11-25, 05:45 AM
Spontaneous casting from all spells on their list is a good start.

Problem is, a class that is specifically designed as a healbot is never going to be a very popular one (in general terms), unless you start to modify it away from it's designated purpose.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 08:17 AM
You're probably right.:smallfrown: (I was mainly thinking about playing as one myself due to liking the class' flavour and abilities. (For obvious reasons.:smalltongue:)

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-25, 08:31 AM
For the exception of the unicorn, theFavored Soul seems have everything you need. But you can obtain something similar with planar ally or summons anyway.

So...

Hal
2008-11-25, 08:56 AM
My suggestion would be to give them Turn Undead, or something similar, for the purpose of fueling feats (Domain Feats, DMM, etc.). Call it "Positive Reinforcement" or something like that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 08:58 AM
I disagree as far as FSs go due to their limited spells known. Which Divine feats would you recommend for a Healer?

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-25, 09:34 AM
Run, Dodge, Mobility, Skill Focus: Concentration, and Magic of the Land all immediately spring to mind.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-25, 12:20 PM
The weakness I've always heard for the Healers is that they can't do anything Clerics can't do better. Make them Spontaneous and boost their spell list with a bit more variety and they should be more specialized, but better healers than Clerics, which was their original purpose.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-25, 12:45 PM
I agree (I thought giving them more buffs and battlefield control ability would allow them to be useful in combat as well).

Starsinger
2008-11-25, 12:51 PM
Give them access to buff spells, and this.


Divine Reach (Su)

A hierophant with this ability can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If the spell requires a melee touch attack, the hierophant must make a ranged touch attack instead. Divine reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.

Healer's aren't clerics, they don't belong on the front lines provoking OA's by healing people.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-25, 05:18 PM
My advice on Healers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4251616&postcount=21)

The most important thing is changing them to spontaneous casters. Then they're actually clearly better than clerics at the single thing they specialize in.

If you want to balance them against even non-optimized core full spellcasters, having them use just a single casting stat is a good idea too.

Starsinger's idea is a good one, though that should probably only apply to Healer spells (and not spells from other classes).

Grey Paladin
2008-11-25, 05:24 PM
Letting them cast Heal X wounds/Vigor/Restoration as a Swift action and giving the above spells a range of Healer LVL*5ft worked for me.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 03:35 AM
Thanks for that, Devils_Advocate. Assuming your fix used Wis rather then Cha for save DC, which version do you think would be more balanced overall out of yours and mine? Combining all of the constructive advice I've seen here, I'd give them Turn Undead and Wild Empathy in place of all of the SLAs (except for New Life; while I'd hope that a free True Resurrection every week would turn out to be useless, it's always useful to have one in reserve), and I'd give them Divine Reach instead of the Unicorn while also giving them protective spells, buffs and non-lethal battlefield controls with the light armour and tower proficiency with no loss of casting for wearing metal armour.

This would be in addition to letting them spontaneously cast spells while giving them the same 15 minute preparation time which Sorcerers have (unless Beguillers need a full hour; I can't remember if they are like Wizards or Sorcerers). I'll work on a basic list of spells to add to their list now and edit it in here unless someone posts before I can.


EDIT: All the spells here came from Crystal Keep's Cleric, Druid and Wizard files. I know there are more spells for some levels then others, but I couldn't find many suitable ones for higher levels:

0: Resistance and Prestigitation.
1: Shield of Faith, Grease, Entangle.
2: Web, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Barkskin.
3: Dispell, Magic Circle Against Evil, Resist Energy Mass, Protection From Energy, Tiny Hut, Plant Growth, Speak with Plants.
4: Wall of Good, Spell Immunity, Legion's Shield of Faith, Repel Vermin, Solid Fog, Secure Shelter, Lesser Globe of Invurnerability..
5: Spell Resistance, Rary's Telepathic Bond.
6: Greater Dispell, Celestial Blood, Energy Immunity, Starmantle.
7: Mass Spell Resistance, Fortunate Fate, Bastion of Good.
8: Holy Aura, Mind Blank.
9: Sublime Revelry, Unbinding.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-26, 06:40 AM
Er...thining about it for a while... an alternative idea. The idea came from the usual D&D - Wow thread.. I hope could be useful. PUT DOWN FLAME THROWERS PLS I'M ONLY EXPLAINING HOW THE IDEA CAME!

Was thinking about the priest class in the Wow videogame. It's an healer, but has even sorta mind affecting spells (Soothe mind, Mind Control and so on).

Could be a good idea add mind affecting spells to the healer's list? From charms to dominate? They are "soft" way to defeat enemies (can be used for vile purposes but the good alignment fo the healer would mitigate this. Also add dispel magic spells from Sorc/Wiz list.

What do you think about it?

P.S. +1 to Starsinger's idea. Very good and very functional

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 06:42 AM
That is actually a really good idea. I'm not sure if that would make them too versatile with the spells I already picked for them, though. I just had another thought: if they had the ranged healing ability, heavy and medium armour would probably not be a good thing due to how mobility could be more important most of the time, so I'd be tempted to limit them to light armour and all shields.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-26, 08:44 AM
That is actually a really good idea. I'm not sure if that would make them too versatile with the spells I already picked for them, though.

Agree. I proposed it as a variant, not a thing to add. And imho, if you the divine reach and the mind affecting spells, light armor is enough both for flavour and mechanics.

Greenfaun
2008-11-26, 10:36 AM
Plenty of good ideas so far, but what about adding the healing aura of the Dragon Shaman? It fits their theme, it's simple to manage, it's useful without being too strong, and it doesn't take up any actions so they can still do whatever they need to in combat.

Just a thought. Divine reach, expanded spell list and spontaneous cures seem like a pretty good way to go, never having played one myself.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-26, 10:56 AM
Good Idea but you can gain an aura even by a feat, maybe there is in magic of dragon?

ObsidianRose
2008-11-26, 11:29 AM
The fix that our group uses goes something like this.
(Some of it is adapted from stuff we've read)

Healers determine DC, bonus spells, all that fun stuff using charisma. Healing hands does as well.
The healer remains a prepared spell caster with the same spell list, but can spontaneously swap out spells for healing spells.
In addition to spells, the healer gets SLAs for all healing spells lower than their highest spell level (A 3rd level healer would get SLA of Cure Light).
All healing spells, if cast from the spell list, are close range and can be cast as swift actions, but without healing hands.
And a "Hospitaler's Inspiration" ability, which is simply turn undead for the purpose of divine feats.

All else stays the same. I'm toying with the idea of adding Lay on Hands, as well.

vampire2948
2009-08-30, 04:11 PM
Give them a couple of the marshal auras?

Perhaps the Con one, and the DR one? Maybe other suitable ones. Name them other things.

Fluff could be to do with their morality and affinity with healing magic can affect nearby allies with constant effects. Perhaps with range scaling with level.

Set
2009-08-30, 04:31 PM
Tweaking the spell list to have better buffs, folding in the abilities of the Combat Medic (kickers to healing spells), a dash of War Weaver (mass versions of some buffs for free) and throwing on some sort of ranged healing utility (Divine Reach) would probably make the class worth playing as a healer / buffer.

The 'mercies' of the Pathfinder Paladin (remove something from a list, such as fatigued or poisoned, for free, with a Lay on Hands) or the token-healing of the Gold Knight PrC (from Scarred Lands, gives allies golden tokens that allows him to channel his healing spells on them at Close range) could be fun variations on the ranged healing / spell kicker concepts.

Having the Healer auto-empower cure spells at a certain level, or get a free Sudden Empower / Sudden Maximize / Sudden Quicken that only applies to cure spells could be a neat option. Perhaps every five levels they get a different Sudden Metamagic feat, only usable on Cure spells. Sudden Empower at 5th, Sudden Quicken at 10th, Sudden Maximize 15, Sudden Chain at 20th. :)

Definitely make sure that newer shinier healing spells, like Close Wounds and Lesser Vigor / Vigor / Mass Vigor are added to their spell list.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-08-30, 06:06 PM
I'm actually playing a healer in a game right now. A straight out of the book no tinkering with it healer. Here's the feats that I took/will be taking soon.

FEATS:Touch of Healing, Spontaneous healer, Augment healing, Magic of the land, and Healing Devotion.

I'm having tons of fun with the class. . . might be because my party keeps nearly dying and i'm all that keeps them up but still. . .

(side note; I did change one thing about the class, my dm allowed RIDE to be a class skill as its stupid to give a mount as a class feature but not give them the ability to ride it.)

Johanas
2009-08-30, 06:52 PM
I am the GM in Shadowsgrneye's game (what a LOOOONG name!) and from a GM perspective, it is a LOT of fun to be able to throw a much tougher monster at the party, and have the encounter still go well. The party are mostly experienced players, and so a lot of them can guess when a combat is gonna be rough. But take session before last. The Paladin took a hit for something around thirty damage (at level 4!) and was reeling...and the healer walked up and cast Cure Light Wounds. She rolled a 6. She called out, "Twenty-One!" and the crowd went NUTS! Between her healing, and his power-attacking with his great sword, they dropped a CR 9 construct. In like three to four rounds. The paladin ended combat at full health. It was pretty epic. That's the same paladin I referred to in my Binder PC Thread who Optimystik so accurately described as having the intelligence of a talking table.

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-30, 08:14 PM
Give them a couple of the marshal auras?

Perhaps the Con one, and the DR one? Maybe other suitable ones. Name them other things.

Fluff could be to do with their morality and affinity with healing magic can affect nearby allies with constant effects. Perhaps with range scaling with level.

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is nine months old. Please don't resurrect old threads.