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bue52
2008-11-25, 06:05 AM
I heard a number of people saying that a bard is underpowered, and personally I'd like to know how. I always thought that a bard is meant to be a "team player" kind of class, which is what D&D essentially is right? So what's so horrible about the bard? I'd love to hear the experts speak, and if a bard went on a solo adventure how difficult would the adventure become? Just because the character is a bard. Is there any difference in fighting styles if a bard were to be separated from his/her group? A number of questions, I wonder who can answer. Thanks in advance for those who answer this noob's question.

BobVosh
2008-11-25, 06:21 AM
Bards do lots of things. Jack of trades approach to D&D is looked upon as suboptimal. (With a few exceptions, like factotum.) Bard is not BAD, but not great. They don't do anything unique that other classes can't do, except sing, and they can't replace other classes. No trap finding, not particularly high damage, werid weapons, and limited spell casting (though some bard only spells are amazing.)

That said, some bard builds are considered great. Such as the Snowflake wardance, or words of creation.

CthulhuM
2008-11-25, 06:51 AM
Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it. DnD, particularly at higher levels, rewards focused builds. In order to regularly succeed at anything (whether it be attacking, using skills, casting spells and having enemies fail their saves, etc.), you generally have to specifically focus your build on it.

The jack of all trades approach is reasonable at lower levels, where you can do a number of things and just be less effective at them than a more focused character, but at higher levels there is a tendency to find yourself almost completely ineffective at anything your build and gear is not focused on enhancing. Sure, you can attack, but you probably won't hit, and even if you do your 1d6+5 damage is a mosquito bite to the mob with 200 hp. Sure, you can cast spells, but not many enemies will fail your DC 15-20 saves. Sure, you can use skills... but so can the rogue, and he has almost all the skills you do, more skill points, and trapfinding - plus he can actually do some damage. That just leaves your music, which is actually a pretty nice boost for the party, but it's not a lot of fun for you when a typical combat consists of singing on the first round and then flailing ineffectively until your allies finish things up.

All that said, yeah, there are definitely some powerful bard builds out there, but they all basically become powerful by focusing on one particular aspect of the bard class and letting the others fall to the side. A warchanter with snowflake wardance is a pretty decent melee build, but it's not as much of a skillmonkey and can barely even be called a spellcaster. A sublime chord can be a pretty potent spellcaster, but then you're basically playing a sorcerer with a few extra bells and whistles attached.

If you want to play a bard, though, don't let all of that stop you. Their music is a fairly unique ability, and at low levels the jack of all trades thing can work out pretty well. Just bear in mind the problems you're likely to encounter further down the line.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-25, 06:52 AM
I've soloed a bard through several character levels, and I've gotta say that yeah, it's kind of difficult. A large part of it is for your bard to be smart enough, or worldly enough to know when something is too much for him to tackle alone. There were a lot of challenges that good ol' Solin Vaneer backed quietly away from, rather than engaging with spell and sword like several of my other characters may have. However, in the city - where most of his adventuring and investigating took place - he was an unstoppable force. Ludicrous diplomacy, bluff, perform and bardic knowledge let him rock his way through any social challenge as an optimized warblade cuts through a field of goblin commoners. When swords were drawn, my bard was vastly more useful as the motivator of an adventuring party, but as long as the challenge wasn't one of naked steel, he did just great on his own.

Now, was he nearly as handy in all things as a cleric or druid with full ranks in diplomacy? Absolutely not. In many ways, I would have had more diversity of options and better fortune if I had simply played a UMD-focused rogue with high diplomacy, or even a talkative paladin.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 06:54 AM
Bards aren't underpowered, except in comparison to full casters, and in Core-only. They have:
-The makings of a Diplomancer right out of the box, and Glibness for insane Bluff
-The ability to pre-empt encounters via. Fascinate for obscene (read: equal-to-skills) saves nobody can make
-Easy access to 9th level spells (Sublime Chord) about on par with a Sorceress
-Bardic Music, especially Inspire Courage, which can be optimized to great effect - +12/+12 to attacks and saves, +12d6 elemental damage
-Other effects, like Inspire Greatness for extra HD, Protection from Evil-song, etc.
-Skill monkery, only second to straight monkeys like Factotum and Rogue (insane power in diplomatic encounters and scenarios) with Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades for can do EVERYTHING, on par with Factotum (requires taking classes that advance Bardic Knowledge though - luckily Sublime Chord is one of them).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-25, 07:15 AM
Bard is a wonderful class, as long as you don't run out of your daily Bardic Music uses. Go either Half-Elf or Spellscale for the racial substitution levels, or Human or Strongheart Halfling for the bonus feat. The Magic-Blooded (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf) template is also handy. Get feats like Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and Song of the Heart, along with a few Badge of Valor (MIC) to boost the usefulness of your Inspire Courage ability. Take Melodic Casting and Lingering Song so you don't sacrifice your Inspire Courage buff to take other actions. Pick up the Raiment of the Four item set from MIC, along with a Harmonizing weapon, and you're good to go.

If you're soloing, get Leadership, Wild Cohort, Exalted Companion, Obtain Familiar, and either Improved Familiar or Dragon Familiar. Your Familiar and Animal Companion can each take Vow of Poverty, make sure each of them get a lot of attacks/round to make the best of Dragonfire Inspiration. Your Cohort could be someone who can make up for areas you'd be lacking in, depending on the campaign.

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-25, 07:22 AM
Your Familiar and Animal Companion can each take Vow of Poverty...
:smallconfused: Is this purely theoretical, or are there DMs alive that actually allow this? All of mine would laugh until they cried if I even suggested it, and so would I.

BobVosh
2008-11-25, 07:29 AM
:smallconfused: Is this purely theoretical, or are there DMs alive that actually allow this? All of mine would laugh until they cried if I even suggested it, and so would I.

It would be a dice throwing moment for most dms I should imagine.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-25, 07:33 AM
:smallconfused: Is this purely theoretical, or are there DMs alive that actually allow this? All of mine would laugh until they cried if I even suggested it, and so would I.

With Exalted Companion, it's not unlikely that your animal companion would take exalted feats. Getting it on your Familiar would be a bit more of a stretch, it would take a lot of convincing for a Dragon Familiar to have it, but Improved Familiar has a few candidates considering its Intelligence would be high enough for it to have a non-neutral alignment. An intelligent Exalted Companion taking VoP is a lot more likely to happen than an Animal Companion with an Int score of 1 learning enough ranks of Spellcraft to get Mage Slayer, but which do you think happens more often?

Fan
2008-11-25, 07:37 AM
Sweet. Now I'm going to have my Beholder familiar take VOP, and OWN.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 08:13 AM
Sweet. Now I'm going to have my Beholder familiar take VOP, and OWN.

-How did you got a beholder companion?
-Why is it exalted?
-How did you convice it to take VOP since beholders actually feed on magic items, so you're condemning him to slowly starving to death?
-And also, how are you gonna beat my geared up beholder companion filled with shinies?

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-25, 08:53 AM
The bard would be a terrible class in World of Warcraft. But since it's D&D, and you can interact with creatures in several ways, IT'S A WONDERFUL CLASS (both combat and non-combat).

Ethdred
2008-11-25, 09:59 AM
It would be a dice throwing moment for most dms I should imagine.

Dice? The whole damn table I think!

warmachine
2008-11-25, 10:59 AM
Some of the answers could do with references. Also, it'd be nicer if builds considered core only and Complete series + PHB 2 only. Some of us can't play with the broken stuff or even want to. A solid Bard build would be fine.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 11:02 AM
Core has very broken stuff- Candles of Invocation/gate, Solars/efreeti Wish. And fairly cheap. CoDzilla and Batman wizard can go a long way with just core.

Ruling out non-core stuff to reduce complexity, sure, but don't expect it to guarantee no broken stuff.

AngelSword
2008-11-25, 11:11 AM
Ask anyone in my gaming group, and they'll tell you that I love the bard. To the point where I'll show undue favoritism to anyone who plays one in my game (well, with the exclusion of one, who decided that being a bard gave him leave to be as annoying as humanly possible; though that could just be the player, and not the fault of the character).

I've always thought that if one wanted to play solo adventures, the bard would be the way to go. Sure, you're not as well-versed in spells as the Sorcerer, you're not as skill savvy as the Rogue, and you lack the combat prowess of the fighter. But when you are the party, you'll be happy to have so many tricks up your (hopefully weighted) sleeves.

The trick in playing a bard in a group, as I've seen, is to play up the knowledgeable party face. With the bard having access to all Knowledge skills, you'll have the answer most of the time. Sure, it's not quite the number-crunching satisfaction of the fighter or the wizard, but it has its rewards.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-25, 11:14 AM
I think that, in the bard's role of team player, they have one major problem: Their songs don't scale. Sure, they get better songs as they go up in level, but their songs don't scale that well with level. A 1st level Bard and a 20th level Bard singing to Inspire Courage has only a +3 difference. Inspire Greatness? They can help 4 people at level 18, with the exact same bonuses as a 9th level person. Inspire Heroics? 2 people at 18th level. And they stack poorly, because you have to stop one to start the other, and so have only a few rounds of overlap.

NEO|Phyte
2008-11-25, 11:23 AM
-How did you convice it to take VOP since beholders actually feed on magic items, so you're condemning him to slowly starving to death?

VoP negates the need to eat, drink, and eventually breathe.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-25, 11:28 AM
-How did you got a beholder companion?

Eyeball beholder is available as an improved familiar.


-Why is it exalted?

Accidentally flew into a helm of opposite alignment.


-How did you convice it to take VOP since beholders actually feed on magic items, so you're condemning him to slowly starving to death?

Doesn't own them, just eats them. You are allowed to have food, after all.


-And also, how are you gonna beat my geared up beholder companion filled with shinies?

I'll cheat. ;-)

Heliomance
2008-11-25, 11:44 AM
A party of 6 Bards would be disgusting. Give them all a different flavour Dragonfire Inspiration, reasonably optimised, and that's an awful lot of damage boosing going on. If you can fit in Snowflake Wardance for them all as well, then you're peachy. And as for anything that's not immune to mind affecting, you don't even have to kill them. You can have them fascinated first round, and they're going to fail that save against suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html) sooner or later. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-25, 12:07 PM
I think that, in the bard's role of team player, they have one major problem: Their songs don't scale. Sure, they get better songs as they go up in level, but their songs don't scale that well with level. A 1st level Bard and a 20th level Bard singing to Inspire Courage has only a +3 difference. Inspire Greatness? They can help 4 people at level 18, with the exact same bonuses as a 9th level person. Inspire Heroics? 2 people at 18th level. And they stack poorly, because you have to stop one to start the other, and so have only a few rounds of overlap.Which is why the music needs to be focused on to be effective. Free +1 weapons at first level are good, free +12/+12(stacking) weapons at 20th are better. And Lingering Song makes you able to use multiple boosts, so you can get something like +8d6+8 damage and +8 AB over the course of 2 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

OverdrivePrime
2008-11-25, 12:21 PM
Which is why the music needs to be focused on to be effective. Free +1 weapons at first level are good, free +12/+12(stacking) weapons at 20th are better. And Lingering Song makes you able to use multiple boosts, so you can get something like +8d6+8 damage and +8 AB over the course of 2 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

I am keenly interested in the details of how one gets a +12/+12 to weapons from bard abilities. Can you share?

And yes, Lingering song is a beautiful thing.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-25, 12:25 PM
Which is why the music needs to be focused on to be effective. Free +1 weapons at first level are good, free +12/+12(stacking) weapons at 20th are better. And Lingering Song makes you able to use multiple boosts, so you can get something like +8d6+8 damage and +8 AB over the course of 2 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

That's the thing. Music is bard's thing. In order to be competent at it, they need a number of feats, that come out of their 1/3 levels selection.

Fighters need feats, but they get them.
Wizards are great if they have feats, but they don't 100% need them.
Druids need 1 feat.

How many feats (and other requirements) does a +12/+12, with a 8D6+8 with a +8 AB take?

BardicDuelist
2008-11-25, 12:39 PM
Bards excel in out of combat situations. They are the epitome of party faces, and can be so with little investment.

In combat, yes, there are only a couple of bard builds that I would play at high levels (which I still do not understand why so many people focus on this...). Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is my favorite, as it allows one to focus on both music and spellcasting for a very modest skill loss, essentially. Basically, no, you are not a melee character, but most bards won't be anyway. You can still have the social skills you want too.

At lower levels, you boost, you hit, you cast. You help flank, or provide cover fire, you essentially let the wizard choose spells he needs, because you can provide the utility, buffs, and no-saves that can pull the group out of a fight (yes, spells that require a save are generally a bad idea). If the cleric/druid falls (highly unlikely, I know), or can't be bothered to bring that wizard or rogue back from the brink of death, you can give a hand there too.

That's why I like bards. You are the consummate team player, and when it comes time to deal with non-combat encounters, you are at the forefront.

A bard with a Logic Ninja Batman (not the "I'm so paranoid no one can kill me" the one that makes everyone better at what they do), a factotum (for skills), and a Summoner Druid (bonuses to all of the nasty things he comes up with) is a very potent party. Sure, the party is potent without the bard, but the bard makes it better because it lets everyone else focus more.

That last sentence is probably my most important point. Perhaps the bard's greatest strength isn't that he can do anything, it's that he can fill in for the things that get neglected by everyone else specializing so much.

In 4e, the bard does this too (from what I've experienced playtesting the preview). He can pick up the slack. He works well with others. He's still the best party face, and he can pick up a little bit from every class. He doesn't just buff the party, but he makes the enemies less effective. He can pick up where both the controller and the leader (those with, perhaps, the most complicated roles) may fall short in their power selection. The defender and striker have straight forward enough roles, so the "jack-of-all-trades" bit doesn't really extend there, although it can.

Zenos
2008-11-25, 12:45 PM
I think I heard someone talk about a theoretical party of bards, followed by a bunch of peasants with +50 (might be exaggerated, I don't remember it clearly. It was high, anyways) or something to attack and loads of additional damage dice going on.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 12:52 PM
Some of the answers could do with references. Also, it'd be nicer if builds considered core only and Complete series + PHB 2 only. Some of us can't play with the broken stuff or even want to. A solid Bard build would be fine.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445

Weeee!

Gamiress
2008-11-25, 12:53 PM
That's always what starts these arguments, most people only think about combat numbers. It drives me nuts.

I have played a bard through to Epic levels, as part of a five man party (Dmitrich was The Lancer) and at no point did I feel useless. He couldn't crank out DPS like the others, but when you're keeping all the targets on the ground writhing in pain you don't need to. Besides, there's always a place for someone who can wheedle free transportation and healing for the whole party out of an NPC. Or convince the big bad to drop his pointy-stick-o-doom.

ZeroNumerous
2008-11-25, 01:07 PM
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445

Weeee!

Snowflake Wardance is Frostburn-specific.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 01:14 PM
How many feats (and other requirements) does a +12/+12, with a 8D6+8 with a +8 AB take?

Two feats, or three for +xd6. The feats are, for the interested:
-Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]
-Words of Creation [Book of Exalted Deeds]
-Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]

The rest comes from items.

Keld Denar
2008-11-25, 01:17 PM
The most obsene numbers come from rather questionable reading of where the multiplication comes in with Words of Creation, a feat from Book of Exalted Deeds that doubles the effect of any given bardic music and then deals you xd4 non-lethal damage, where x is the minimum ranks in perform required to do the song. So, IC would be 3d4 damage, but others are much more. Then you look at all the things that increase IC by themselves:

Inspirational Boost (Spell, SpC, Bard1)
Song of the Heart (ECS, feat, requires Insp Comp)
Badge of Valor (MIC, 3/day immediate action, ~1200g each)
some kind of MW Insrument? (CScoundrel?)

So, given a base bard song of +4 at level 20, you now have either (4+4)x2 for +16, or (4)x2+4 for +12, or even something in between (4+3)x2+1 for +15 because technically Badge adds on AFTER the song is going.

The most sick build I believe I've seen was JanusJones Bardic Badass over on CharOp. Was a Bard3/Warblade17 with Song of the White Raven that stacks Bard and Warblade/Crusader levels to determine IC. I think he used a number like +12, though I don't know how he got there. Boosting Raging Mongoose and initating Time Stands Still gives him ~23 attacks in round, each with +12d6 damage. Simple multiplication puts the average damage at 966 per round just from Dragonfire Inspiration applied to IC, not including str, dex, weapon damage, or other sources of bonus damage.

I built a halfling knife thrower shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11) which is pretty strong at about 616 damge per round from DFI, though my build does it from range and doesn't use Words of Creation.

Its particularly broken at low levels. My buddy asked me to help him build a bard for a level 4 game. Human Bard4, feats being Melodic Casting and DFI at first level, Song of the Heart at 3rd, and the only equipment you really need is a Badge of Valor, which costs less than 1/4 your WBL at level 4. Cast Inspirational Boost (swift action) and start a song (+2 w/ Song of the Heart) for a +3 bard song, and then trigger your Badge as an immediate action bumping you to +4. A level 4 bard who adds +4d6 damage to his whole party. You try balancing level 4 encounters with that factored in. Oh, and he can do this about 3x a day, and tecnically doesn't have to stop preforming between combats unless he wants to perform something social. That is strong, almost game unbalancing. It slows off after there, but +4 at level 3 is attainable, and pretty broken in just about every way.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 01:24 PM
Snowflake Wardance is Frostburn-specific.

Frostburn isn't a settings, it's a terrain book. Just as overall usable as "Races of" and "Complete"-serieses.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 01:27 PM
Snowflake Wardance is Frostburn-specific.

You say that as if Frostburn is a setting.

Either way, it all depends on the DM.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 01:36 PM
(4)x2+4 for +8

Your math is a bit off here. The minimalist interpretion generates +12. The power interpretation is something like +18. This can be done level 15 thanks to Vest of Legends. Level 21 would be +14-+20, depending on the readings.

Keld Denar
2008-11-25, 01:46 PM
Your math is a bit off here. The minimalist interpretion generates +12. The power interpretation is something like +18. This can be done level 15 thanks to Vest of Legends. Level 21 would be +14-+20, depending on the readings.

Math please? I couldn't come up with anything else given that combo of equipment. Does IC progress into epic? I haven't seen anything that would make me believe it does, so a Vest of Legends would be a redundant item at level 20, because having a bard level of 25 wouldn't net you anything else (other than the other benefits of the vest, like the bonus to perform, etc).

EDIT: Fixt the first post

Townopolis
2008-11-25, 01:49 PM
[Edit]: Math has been requested


Level 20 Inspire Courage = 4
Words of Creation = (x2)
Other Bonuses = +4
4x2 = 8
8+4 = 12

I've found that, with the right spell selection, a bard makes a decent tank up to 4 times a day, though usually less. It's all about the miss chance.

With the right feat selection, you can make your whole party plenty more destructive, or become a decent fighter yourself. Eventually, you can do both.

With the right skill selection, you will dominate social encounters at little-no personal expense.

One core part of optimizing the bard is playing to your allies' strengths and covering their weaknesses. If someone else in your party wants to TWF, then you will really want to pick up DFI if at all possible. TWFing yourself is optional, but probably a good idea, at this point. Grab Joyful Noise to support the wizard, etc..

Skill and feat selection are key. Usually, I try to keep a core of social skills (perform, diplomacy, gather information, sense motive) and spend the rest in knowledge skills, possibly with spellcraft. Taking Melodic Casting early frees you from taking concentration, which is really good, and on top of that the rest of the feat is pretty darn useful. TWFing is a little feat intensive. You can just take DFI, but lots of things have fire resistance, which often means you'll have to take Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage as well. At this point, spending 1-2 more feats to actually take TWF hurts a lot, and then you'll want Snowflake Wardance too, altogether taking 5-6 of your 7-8 feats. If you want to also take some decent music feats (Melodic Casting, Sound of Silence, Words of Creation), you're kind of left in the lurch.

You could also dip 1 level of sorcerer instead of taking Dragontouched, but that's not always desirable. Still, it may be best, just try to get a vest of legends.

However, before taking my standard bard build, I'll check to see what the rest of the party is, as this can drastically change what I'll want to do with my bard.

If you can take Song of the Heart, then you can probably sacrifice Inspire Competence for it instead of a feat slot, which is recommended.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 02:05 PM
Bardic tanks are very doable. I personally like Bard 8/Arcane Duelist 2/Dervish 10 with Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battle Dancing and tons of boosts. Of course, ideally that build wants another Bard to go with it for the actual Inspire as there's no way to get Dervish-levels stacked for it. Still, having the ability to move and full attack every round along with huge bonuses to everything kicks ass. I suppose Bard 8/Arcane Duelist 2/Warblade 10 works too, but Arcane Duelist has tough prerequisites then.

BardicDuelist
2008-11-25, 02:24 PM
For sources:
Human Bard (PHB)
Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Scoundrel)
Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)
Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer)

Take the prereqs for feats. Take whatever else interests you. You have solid spellcasting, good skills, and some really cool musical effects. Yes, you can cheese out certain aspects of your character a bit more (I usually do), but this is a solid foundation.

Eldariel
2008-11-25, 06:26 PM
Lyric Thaumaturge is Complete Mage, although I find the class kinda meh. Don't get me wrong, some builds really appreciate Spell Secret (for example, Archer) and the entry requirements are no requirements at all, but you lose out on a lot. Most important:
-Inspire Courage advancement!!
-2 skills per level!
-Bardic Knowledge (or Knack) advancement
-Inspire Greatness

For all these reasons, I tend to simply skip Lyric Thaumaturge since it loses too much compared to Bard and can't advance Sublime Chord-casting to take after 10 - most spells you'd add you can UMD easily enough anyways (the exception being CL-dependant spells, most importantly Greater Magic Weapon). Also, the fact that second Spell Secret (for the levels you really want it for) comes at level 6 (CL 10) is a huge dealbreaker, as that means you can't take Virtuoso/Sublime Chord end for the character without losing an actual caster level for Virtuoso (which really sucks as Sublime Chord is a fast progression class and thus every caster level gives huge returns, especially every level before 20).

Townopolis
2008-11-25, 06:47 PM
I'd also like to say, I've encountered a lot of lukewarm attitudes towards bad that are a direct results of ****y bard players who turn on basic inspire courage and go "I'm participating!:smallbiggrin:" and then spend the rest of the encounter doing nothing but remind people to include the +1.

One thing I'd like to add to my previous advice for building a bard, is to spend your feats and skills on your schtick (for which I recommend "massive buffage and socialness"), but focus your spells more towards emergency fill-in. You'll usually want to be able to fill in for the following three positions:

Tank
Combat Medic
Counter-Magic


Thus, a mix of spells giving you a defensive buff, a curative spell, and an anti-spellcaster option at ever spell level is ideal. For 0th and 1st level spells, you're probably better off taking support-style magic such as inspirational boost, but after that I recommend using your entire spellcasting battery as an ace-in-the-hole.

When the time comes to fill in for one of those roles, use as many spells as you need, don't be shy. It's better to blow every spell in the one fight where the Crusader takes a dirtnap, and tank well for a minute, than to conserve your own resources and let your party take massive hits to theirs.

As always, I recommend taking Melodic Casting so you can cast and sing simultaneously (allowing me to stay in buff-mode even when taking up fill-in duties) and Snowflake Wardance so you can do something other than stand around while maintaining your songs in normal fights. Sound of Silence is another excellent feat that greatly enhances your counter-magic capabilities when they're needed most.

bue52
2008-11-26, 01:55 AM
I'd also like to say, I've encountered a lot of lukewarm attitudes towards bad that are a direct results of ****y bard players who turn on basic inspire courage and go "I'm participating!:smallbiggrin:" and then spend the rest of the encounter doing nothing but remind people to include the +1.

One thing I'd like to add to my previous advice for building a bard, is to spend your feats and skills on your schtick (for which I recommend "massive buffage and socialness"), but focus your spells more towards emergency fill-in. You'll usually want to be able to fill in for the following three positions:

Tank
Combat Medic
Counter-Magic


Thus, a mix of spells giving you a defensive buff, a curative spell, and an anti-spellcaster option at ever spell level is ideal. For 0th and 1st level spells, you're probably better off taking support-style magic such as inspirational boost, but after that I recommend using your entire spellcasting battery as an ace-in-the-hole.

When the time comes to fill in for one of those roles, use as many spells as you need, don't be shy. It's better to blow every spell in the one fight where the Crusader takes a dirtnap, and tank well for a minute, than to conserve your own resources and let your party take massive hits to theirs.

As always, I recommend taking Melodic Casting so you can cast and sing simultaneously (allowing me to stay in buff-mode even when taking up fill-in duties) and Snowflake Wardance so you can do something other than stand around while maintaining your songs in normal fights. Sound of Silence is another excellent feat that greatly enhances your counter-magic capabilities when they're needed most.

Ooo cool, though I can you list down the books where these abilities are found? I'd love to read them in detail.

Townopolis
2008-11-26, 04:21 AM
Here are some books and their feats, PrCs, spells, and "items."

Book of Exalted Deeds
-Words of Creation

Complete Adventurer (IIRC)
-Versatile Performer <- more for Pathfinder campaigns
-Virtuoso

Complete Arcane
-Sublime Chord

Complete Mage
-Melodic Casting
-Lyric Thaumaturge

Complete Scoundrel
-Sound of Silence

Complete Warrior (IIRC)
-Dervish

Dragon Magic
-Draconic Heritage
-Dragonfire Inspiration
-Dragontouched

Dungeon Master's Guide 2 (IIRC)
-"Slippers of Battledancing"
-"Vest of Legends"

Frostburn
-Snowflake Wardance

Magic Item Compendium
-"Badge of Valor"

Player's Guide to Eberron (IIRC)
-Song of the Heart

Spell Compendium
-Inspirational Boost
-Sirine's Grace

jcsw
2008-11-26, 04:57 AM
Sirine's Grace from the Spell Compendium gives Cha to AC, among other things.

Ethdred
2008-11-26, 06:45 AM
Its particularly broken at low levels. My buddy asked me to help him build a bard for a level 4 game. Human Bard4, feats being Melodic Casting and DFI at first level, Song of the Heart at 3rd, and the only equipment you really need is a Badge of Valor, which costs less than 1/4 your WBL at level 4. Cast Inspirational Boost (swift action) and start a song (+2 w/ Song of the Heart) for a +3 bard song, and then trigger your Badge as an immediate action bumping you to +4. A level 4 bard who adds +4d6 damage to his whole party. You try balancing level 4 encounters with that factored in. Oh, and he can do this about 3x a day, and tecnically doesn't have to stop preforming between combats unless he wants to perform something social. That is strong, almost game unbalancing. It slows off after there, but +4 at level 3 is attainable, and pretty broken in just about every way.


I may be being particularly thick here, but how is the bard adding d6 damage (let alone 4d6)? I thought it was just a +1 bonus.

Keld Denar
2008-11-26, 06:53 AM
I may be being particularly thick here, but how is the bard adding d6 damage (let alone 4d6)? I thought it was just a +1 bonus.

Did you not read 2/3 of the thread? You convert the +X to +Xd6 with Dragonfire Inspiration, a feat from Dragon Magic. You also increase the X portion with the feats, spells, and items listed in this thread. Its VERY easy to get to +4 by level 3.

Tomada
2008-11-26, 08:01 AM
Math please? I couldn't come up with anything else given that combo of equipment. Does IC progress into epic? I haven't seen anything that would make me believe it does, so a Vest of Legends would be a redundant item at level 20, because having a bard level of 25 wouldn't net you anything else (other than the other benefits of the vest, like the bonus to perform, etc).

EDIT: Fixt the first post

Yes, it goes up epic levels.

Take a look at some of the spic feats for bardic music. You will have to respect an epic Bard with a handful of commoners, because that thing can take down kingdoms!

Ethdred
2008-11-26, 08:38 AM
Did you not read 2/3 of the thread? You convert the +X to +Xd6 with Dragonfire Inspiration, a feat from Dragon Magic. You also increase the X portion with the feats, spells, and items listed in this thread. Its VERY easy to get to +4 by level 3.


Yes I did, thanks, but nowhere does it actually explain what Dragonfire Inspiration does - some of us don't own every book going.

Townopolis
2008-11-26, 02:30 PM
DFI gives you the option of losing the +X to attack and damage in favor of +Xd6 fire damage. This is why DFI and TWF are always mentioned together, it eventually gives you +8d6 fire damage to every attack (+12d6 if you're exalted).

DFI requires you to be dragonblooded. Dragon Magic has a few racial variants that give this. You could also take Dragontouched, which makes you dragonblooded, gives a few miscellaneous bonuses, and also allows you to take draconic feats as a sorcerer of your level.

Draconic Heritage requires you to be dragonblooded and a level 1 sorcerer. DH allows you to change the energy type of all your draconic abilities based on a dragon of your choice.

Because so many things are resistant/immune to fire damage, lots of people take Dragontouched so they can take DH so they can change their Xd6 fire damage to Xd6 sonic damage (or force). This is possible with the introduction of some weird dragons with a sonic breath weapons (and others with force).

LibraryOgre
2008-11-26, 02:37 PM
Two feats, or three for +xd6. The feats are, for the interested:
-Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]
-Words of Creation [Book of Exalted Deeds]
-Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]

The rest comes from items.

Any other requirements? I don't have any of those, and certainly not handy.

Epinephrine
2008-11-26, 02:48 PM
While it's not pure "bard", the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle makes a fine PrC for a bard, especially after you take Sublime Chord (feel free to grab the first level beforehand though, it doesn't advance spellcasting.

Something like bard7/war weaver 1/bard8-9/sublime chord 1-2/war weaver2-5/sublime chord 3-6

War weaver allows you to cast spells into your "eldritch tapestry", allowing you to share a spell with a number of willing allies equal to your casting bonus. The bard's cure wound spells suddenly become very efficient, and several decent buffs can be shared easily. What's more, the war weaver can make use of a "quiescent weaving" to cast spells into the tapestry and hold them there, releasing them with a move action later. Very cool for a party buffing bard.

Eldariel
2008-11-26, 03:15 PM
Any other requirements? I don't have any of those, and certainly not handy.

No requirements featwise, but Words of Creation has other huge requirements: in addition to being Exalted, you need to have Int 15 and Cha 15 and base Will +5 [in other words, Bard level 4], and you take Xd4 non-lethal damage (where X is the minimum ranks of Perform for the song) when using a song; the Words have other uses too though. They allow:
-Increasing Caster Level of good magic items you make, and good spells with verbal components you cast, by +1. This deals Xd4 non-lethal damage where X is half the used spell's level rounded down.
-Auto-Extend all Conjuration (Creation) spells and give +4 for Crafting. This deals no non-lethal damage.
-Researching a True Name of a creature: the process requires one week per 2 HD, and costs 1000 gp per week. The character also needs to cast Legend Lore per week, although the cost is included in the weekly fees; at the end of the process he casts Contact Other Plane/Commune (paying for Commune as necessary) and makes a creature identification Knowledge-check (DC 10+HD); success means you get the True Name and can do all manners of nasty stuff to it: give it -4 to save vs. a spell, reduce SR by 4 or DR by 5 for a minute, teleport/greater teleport the creature without including himself in the teleport and gain +6 on opposed Charisma for Planar Binding. Using any of those abilities is a full-round action that deals 5d4 non-lethal damage.

Dragonfire Inspiration merely requires Dragonblood subtype, which you can easily get by being Dragonborn [Races of the Dragon], or Silverbrow Human (human without bonus skills, but Dragonblood subtype - their ancestors contain Silver Dragons; race in Dragon Magic). Then Charisma 11 (automatic) and Bardic Music

Song of the Heart simply requires Bardic Music, Inspire Competence and 6 ranks in Perform. This improves Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Competence and Inspire Heroics-bonuses by +1. It also improves the DC against Fascinate, Suggestion and Haunting Melody by 1, and the effects of Music of Growth and Music of Making along with Soothe the Beast.